Messianic Christians?

[Larry_Stotle]

They are all over the map - give 'em a hundred years and there will be as many "sects" of them as there are "protestant" denominations.

This group is claiming that Gentile men need to be circumcised (links may be out of date):

​

http://www.therefinersfire.org/faq.htm#answer13

This is in direct contradiction to Acts:

(Acts 15:23 KJV) And they wrote letters by them after this manner; The apostles and elders and brethren send greeting unto the brethren which are of the Gentiles in Antioch and Syria and Cilicia:

(Acts 15:24 KJV) Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:

In the next section we can this same Messianic Group have totally twisted Paul's comments - be aware they are using the "Aramaic New Testament" - even so the meaning is clear and not what these distorters of scripture proclaim:

​

What is interesting is how these people attempt to explain away Paul's statement:

1. If a person is immersed (baptized) or circumcised to please the status quo, it profits them nothing. Paul is referring to traditional, religious, Pharisaical, peer group circumcisions that are required before acceptance into status quo religious organizations. Christians who have been baptized into the name of a denomination can likely relate to this as well. Many Christians choose to be re-baptized after realizing their former baptism was into a denominational religion, rather than into the Kingdom of Elohim.

If a person is immersed (baptized) or circumcised to please the status quo, it profits them nothing. Paul is referring to traditional, religious, Pharisaical, peer group circumcisions that are required before acceptance into status quo religious organizations

While this might seem a reasonable argument it hardly fits in with the scene described in Acts 15:24 - How many different sects of Pharisee's were attempting to circumcise the Gentiles? - As we can the circumcision gang were hanging out at the temple and with the Apostles:

(Acts 21:20 KJV) And when they heard it, they glorified the Lord, and said unto him, Thou seest, brother, how many thousands of Jews there are which believe; and they are all zealous of the law:

(Acts 21:21 KJV) And they are informed of thee, that thou teachest all the Jews which are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children, neither to walk after the customs.

As we can see from the above Paul was indeed preaching those things he was accused of in Acts 21:21. These zealous law keepers who believed wanted the Gentiles to be circumcised and keep the law

What is more interesting is this below:

​

Note verse 19 which says: "Therefore, my opinion is that we should not put obstacles in the way of the Goyim who are turning to God"! Read in context Acts 15 plainly states..

This is absolutely ingenious:

"Read in context Acts 15 plainly states" - what they fail to consider (totally ignore) is the whole context ie, verses 23 ans 24 and the rest up to verse 30.

(Acts 15:23 KJV) And they wrote letters by them after this manner; The apostles and elders and brethren send greeting unto the brethren which are of the Gentiles in Antioch and Syria and Cilicia:

(Acts 15:24 KJV) Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:

(Acts 15:29 KJV) That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well.

(Acts 15:30 KJV) So when they were dismissed, they came to Antioch: and when they had gathered the multitude together, they delivered the epistle:

How's that for "Read in context Acts 15 plainly states?"

 

[daisymae]

Some Messianic Jews argue that Jesus' apostles were the first Jews to accept him as Messiah. In modern times, the movement traces its roots to Great Britain in the mid 19th century. The Hebrew Christian Alliance and Prayer Union of Great Britain was founded in 1866 for Jews who wanted to keep their Jewish customs but take on Christian theology. The Messianic Jewish Alliance of America (MJAA), started in 1915, was the first major U.S. group. Jews for Jesus, now the largest and most prominent of the Messianic Jewish organizations in the U.S., was founded in California in 1973.

Prominent Founders:
Dr. C. Schwartz, Joseph Rabinowitz, Rabbi Isaac Lichtenstein, Ernest Lloyd, Sid Roth, Moishe Rosen.

Geography:
Messianic Jews are spread across the world, with large numbers in the United States and Great Britain, as well as in Europe, Latin and South America, and Africa.

Messianic Judaism Governing Body:
No single group governs Messianic Jews. More than 165 independent Messianic Judaism congregations exist worldwide, not counting ministries and fellowships. Some of the associations include Messianic Jewish Alliance of America, International Alliance of Messianic Congregations and Synagogues, Union of Messianic Jewish Congregations, and Fellowship of Messianic Jewish Congregations.


Sacred or Distinguishing Text:
The Hebrew Bible (Tanakh) and the New Testament (B'rit Chadasha).

Notable Messianic Judaism Members:
Mortimer Adler, Moishe Rosen, Henri Bergson, Benjamin Disraeli, Robert Novak, Jay Sekulow, Edith Stein.

Messianic Judaism Beliefs and Practices:
Messianic Jews accept Yeshua (Jesus of Nazareth) as the Messiah promised in the Old Testament. They observe the Sabbath on Saturday, along with traditional Jewish holy days, such as Passover and Sukkot. Messianic Jews hold many beliefs in common with evangelical Christians, such as the virgin birth, atonement, the Trinity, inerrancy of the Bible, and the resurrection. Many Messianic Jews are charismatic and speak in tongues.
Messianic Jews baptize people who are of the age of accountability (able to accept Yeshua as Messiah). Baptism is by immersion. They practice Jewish rituals, such as bar mitzvah for sons and bat mitzvah for daughters, say kaddish for the deceased, and cant the Torah in Hebrew at worship services.

To learn more about what Messianic Jews believe, visit Messianic Jews' Beliefs and Practices.
(Information in this article is summarized from the following sources: MessianicAssociation.org, MessianicJews.info, imja.org, hadavar.org, ReligiousTolerance.org, and IsraelinProphecy.org)

Looks like you spent some time studying all this. Love the way you laid it out, looks like it could be a CIA dossier (however you spell that). I don't mean that as a put down. I don't have all the facts & figures as you do, but something really amazing to me is from what I've read some of these people you've listed and others soon after this movement started migrating to Israel about the time Israel was 'reborn' as a nation. It has the hand of God written all over it.

 

[daisymae]

They are all over the map - give 'em a hundred years and there will be as many "sects" of them as there are "protestant" denominations.

This group is claiming that Gentile men need to be circumcised (links may be out of date):

​

Frequently Asked Questions about Messianic Judaism

This is in direct contradiction to Acts:

(Acts 15:23 KJV) And they wrote letters by them after this manner; The apostles and elders and brethren send greeting unto the brethren which are of the Gentiles in Antioch and Syria and Cilicia:

(Acts 15:24 KJV) Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:

In the next section we can this same Messianic Group have totally twisted Paul's comments - be aware they are using the "Aramaic New Testament" - even so the meaning is clear and not what these distorters of scripture proclaim:

​

What is interesting is how these people attempt to explain away Paul's statement:



If a person is immersed (baptized) or circumcised to please the status quo, it profits them nothing. Paul is referring to traditional, religious, Pharisaical, peer group circumcisions that are required before acceptance into status quo religious organizations

While this might seem a reasonable argument it hardly fits in with the scene described in Acts 15:24 - How many different sects of Pharisee's were attempting to circumcise the Gentiles? - As we can the circumcision gang were hanging out at the temple and with the Apostles:

(Acts 21:20 KJV) And when they heard it, they glorified the Lord, and said unto him, Thou seest, brother, how many thousands of Jews there are which believe; and they are all zealous of the law:

(Acts 21:21 KJV) And they are informed of thee, that thou teachest all the Jews which are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children, neither to walk after the customs.

As we can see from the above Paul was indeed preaching those things he was accused of in Acts 21:21. These zealous law keepers who believed wanted the Gentiles to be circumcised and keep the law

What is more interesting is this below:

​

This is absolutely ingenious:

"Read in context Acts 15 plainly states" - what they fail to consider (totally ignore) is the whole context ie, verses 23 ans 24 and the rest up to verse 30.

(Acts 15:23 KJV) And they wrote letters by them after this manner; The apostles and elders and brethren send greeting unto the brethren which are of the Gentiles in Antioch and Syria and Cilicia:

(Acts 15:24 KJV) Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:

(Acts 15:29 KJV) That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well.

(Acts 15:30 KJV) So when they were dismissed, they came to Antioch: and when they had gathered the multitude together, they delivered the epistle:

How's that for "Read in context Acts 15 plainly states?"

Precede with Caution in finding any church or congregation, this movement, like any other has been infiltrated by Judaizers and false teachers. But like the saying goes, "don't throw out the baby with the bathwater."

 

[RedTent]

They are all over the map - give 'em a hundred years and there will be as many "sects" of them as there are "protestant" denominations.

This group is claiming that Gentile men need to be circumcised (links may be out of date):

​

If they are all over the map, why are you bringing in some off beat ideas you say one has and say it represents the movement? The difference of theology behind this movement is not about using rituals instead of real worship at all, it is the establishment who is death against better ways of understanding Christ who makes that the issue. The new movement wants a clearer better look at OT scripture. As a for instance, about circumcision. Requiring circumcision is not the issue of the movement at all, at issue is whether you may examine all of circumcision NT and OT.

 

[Elin]

One of the first things that hit me was "Wow..this is so deep." All the Hebrew words and concepts...it put a whole new twist on things. As far as the understand the OT to understanding the NT...that was a foreign concept. I was always taught that the OT was the past and the NT was what stood for today. Whereas, in the Messianic Church, the OT was where the main teachings were found. The first time I went with my stepdad, their teachings just blew me away with how in depth they were. I'm not quite sure about the whole thing because it's very different from the Baptist, but I really do think there is a lot to gain from the Messianic. I just have to get used to it. It also amazed me how they would take from the OT and connect the dots to the NT...which I was never taught that and how everything is related. I think it's going to take some getting used to but I think I'm going to like it...i'm just not completely sure yet.

That "pause" in your spirit is for good reason. . .you have to be careful.

There is a tendency to make the OT the center of faith, rather than Christ Jesus.
Jesus is simply added to Judaism, rather than being the very center of faith,
the light in which all things are understood.

There is a tendency to negate some of the NT in favor of the OT.
There is a tendency to reject, in the name of "God doesn't change," that part of the NT
which reveals major change from the OT, as in Heb 7 & 8.

These tendencies have the effect of diminishing Christ Jesus.

You need to be well grounded in the NT if Jesus is going to remain the center of your faith.

 

[RedTent]

That "pause" in your spirit is for good reason. . .you have to be careful.

There is a tendency to make the OT the center of faith, rather than Christ Jesus.
Jesus is simply added to Judaism, rather than being the very center of faith,
the light in which all things are understood.

There is a tendency to negate some of the NT in favor of the OT.
There is a tendency to reject, in the name of "God doesn't change," that part of the NT
which reveals major change from the OT, as in Heb 7 & 8.

These tendencies have the effect of diminishing Christ Jesus.

You need to be well grounded in the NT if Jesus is going to remain the center of your faith.

Your entire thought process is contrary to the way of this new movement, you are thinking in terms of what is superior, what is the center of faith, is something diminishing Christ Jesus.

The bible is breathed by God, all of it, and the theme is the redemption that God planned for us. When Christ is the major part of the plan, how can you say that OT, NT, or the book of Hebrews is a center or not a center of that plan?

 

[Elin]

I was raised Baptist and I grew up with Baptist beliefs. My mom got married to my stepdad...who is a Messianic Christian. I'm sorta conflicted with these teachings. This whole way of worshiping is very new to me, and I just wondered if there is anybody else who have the same beliefs?

All Christianity is Messianic. . .Christ = Messiah.

Do you mean Messianic Judaism?

 

[JGIG]

All Christianity is Messianic. . .Christ = Messiah.

Do you mean Messianic Judaism?

No, she's got it right. She does mean 'Messianic Christians', or Messianics.

Joyfully Growing In Grace was birthed out of the examination of the complex ins and outs of the many streams within the Messianic 'movements' that have become more popular over the past 20 years (largely because of the internet).

Here's from the 'What JGIG Is' and 'What JGIG Is Not' sections at JGIG:

What JGIG Is:

Joyfully Growing In Grace engages in an examination of beliefs found in the Hebrew Roots Movement, Messianic Judaism, and Netzarim streams of thought and related sects.

The term “Messianic” is generally understood to describe Jews who have come to believe in Yeshua/Jesus as their Messiah. Jews who are believers in Jesus/Yeshua typically call themselves Jewish/Hebrew Christians or simply, Christians.

Many Christians meet folks who say they are ‘Messianic’ and assume that those folks are Jewish Christians. Most aren’t Jewish at all, but are Gentile Christians who have chosen to pursue Torah observance and have adopted the Messianic term, calling themselves Messianic Christians, adherents to Messianic Judaism, or simply, Messianics. Some will even try to avoid that label and say that they are followers of "The Way".

These Gentiles (and to be fair, some Messianic Jews) preach Torah observance/pursuance for Christians, persuading many believers that the Christianity of the Bible is a false religion and that we must return to the faith of the first century sect of Judaism that they say Yeshua (Jesus Christ) embraced. According to them, once you become aware that you should be 'keeping' the edicts and regulations of Mosaic Covenant Law, if you do not, you are then in willful disobedience to God.

It has been my observation that Christians who adopt the label of Messianic identify more with the tenets of Judaism than they do with the tenets of Christianity. Many reject the label of Christian altogether and some eventually even convert to Judaism.
1 Thessalonians 5:21-22 says, "But examine everything carefully; hold fast to that which is good; abstain from every form of evil."

Joyfully Growing in Grace examines the methods, claims, and fruits of the Hebrew Roots Movement, Messianic Judaism, and Netzarim streams of thought and related, law-keeping sects.

To borrow from a Forest Gump quote, “Law ‘keepers’ are like a box of chocolates - ya never know what you’re gonna get!” The goal of JGIG is to be a resource to help those affected by the Torah pursuant movements to try and sort out what they’re dealing with. Make use of the tabs with drop-down menus found at the top of this site – there’s tons of info there, and it’s very navigable.

Be sure to click on the many embedded links within the posts here - there's lots of additional and related information for you to access that way, as well.

Welcome, and may God grant you wisdom and discernment as you consider all of these things.

​

What JGIG Is Not

Joyfully Growing In Grace is not a heresy-hunting site, it is not an anti-Semitic site, nor does its author have any agenda other than defending the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

This site is not against the Laws of God.

This site does not condemn believers who find joy and insight into their faith by celebrating Feasts, observing a seventh-day Sabbath or who feel they should adhere to dietary laws.

This site does not condemn believers for choosing to not celebrate the Birth or Resurrection of Jesus Christ.

Romans 14:6 says, "He who observes the day, observes it for the Lord, and he who eats, does so for the Lord, for he gives thanks to God; and he who eats not, for the Lord he does not eat, and gives thanks to God."

JGIG is not about secondary disputable matters, but addresses core issues of the Christian faith and examines how the Hebrew Roots Movement, Messianic Judaism, and Netzarim streams of thought and related sects stand or fall when placed alongside the plumb line of the whole of Scripture.

JGIG is not a site to 'expose' teachers in the HRM, as they are a dime-a-dozen. The posts at JGIG do examine teachings, however, and may, from time to time reference or quote a particular teacher for demonstrative purposes only.

JGIG is not a place for conspiracy theories. Jesus told us that when we see certain things to not be afraid; that our Redemption draws near. He didn't say to get it all figured out and go and retreat to some bunker somewhere; He calls us to love God, love others and make disciples. So there won't be time spent on conspiracy-minded banter here.

Welcome, and may God grant you wisdom and discernment as you consider all of these things.
​

I see that this is an old thread, and it may be too late for Macie, but thought I'd throw this resource out there anyway. My examination into the movements described above began back in 2007. Anyone interested in reading about that can read that story here:

How I Became Aware of the Hebrew Roots Movement


Grace and peace,
-JGIG

 

[RedTent]

All Christianity is Messianic. . .Christ = Messiah.

Do you mean Messianic Judaism?

I mean the movement started by the scholars studying the deep sea scrolls that saw the deeper connection between the OT and Christ.

From your former posts, I know that Judaism to you means something contrary to Christ. It means using rituals as a substitute to worship of God. To you, much of OT is wrapped up in this. That is not my way of thinking. I wouldn't be capable using rituals in this way. I see the spiritual meaning of rituals and how it was used as we use the HS and our understanding to reach the spiritual meaning of rituals. I am not afraid of them, even to the point that I let Kosher eating point me to being clean in thought because I love Christ. In your mind, that would be denying Christ. In my mind it is an admission to the Lord that I am weak and need all the help I can get.

So when you say OT and when I say OT, we have different perceptions of those words. When you say Judaism and I say Judaism we picture very different things. You are deep in the literal meaning, I am deep in the spiritual meaning. It is hard for us to communicate.

 

[Elin]

The deep things of God bring us to a place of laying our life down for the brethren. Jesus did it when he laid His life down for us and I don't think that anyone would dare say that He did not understand the deep things of God. There are those that are feed with the milk of the word all the time and have not been weaned and never grow in grace and meat of the word.

The deep things of God teach us to grow in grace and knowledge.

The deep things of God teach us to be led by and to walk in the Spirit.

The deep things of God teach the believer to make no provision for the flesh.

The deep things of God are those things the Spirit teaches that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.

The deep things of God have to do with the mystery of the church and the body of Christ being revealed under the new covenant.

The deep things of God reveal Christ as the head of the church and that we are members of His body, flesh and bones.

The deep things of God is the superabundant greater grace that abounds toward the believer when they least deserve it.

The deep things of God reveal how we are built together as a habitation of God through the Spirit.

The deep things of God are all the promises of God that are yea and amen and through them the believer is a partaker of God's divine nature.

Don't forget the best part. . .all of God's promises, not just most, or some, but all of God's promises are "yea" in Christ,
not in the law, not in the Torah, or in anything or anyone else, only in Christ.
There are no promises of God outside Christ in the NT.

"For no matter how many promises God has made, they are ""Yea" in Christ,
And so through him, the "Amen " is spoken by us to the glory of God." (2Co 1:20)

Christ, and Christ alone, is the author and the finisher, the end-all and be-all,
the center, heart, substance and focus of Christian faith.
Christ's law of love (Mt 22:37-39) is our only rule, and it fulfills the whole law (Mt 22:40; Ro 13: 8, 9,10).

Christian righteousness (justification=declared guiltless by forgiveness of sin through faith,
a positional "rightwise" standing before God) is not from the law (Ro 3:21-22), it is only from faith
in Jesus Christ (Ro 1:17).
Faith in Jesus Christ then obeys Christ's commands, which is the obedience of Christian sanctification.

These are the deep things of God that are revealed to us by the Spirit in the church that are FREELY given to us and FREELY received so that it is ALL GRACE and none of it BY WORKS!

If the Messianic Christian believes in the deep things of God, then they will demonstrate them through a laid down life that esteems others better than themselves because they are crucified with CHRIST and live in the blood of the new testament covenant that has justified them by faith through the Spirit and not through any works or adherence to the law of the commandments through the flesh.

Amen, justified through faith by grace (Holy Spirit), not by our works of the law.

 

[Elin]

No, she's got it right. She does mean 'Messianic Christians', or Messianics.

Joyfully Growing In Grace was birthed out of the examination of the complex ins and outs of the many streams within the Messianic 'movements' that have become more popular over the past 20 years (largely because of the internet).

Here's from the 'What JGIG Is' and 'What JGIG Is Not' sections at JGIG:

What JGIG Is:

Joyfully Growing In Grace engages in an examination of beliefs found in the Hebrew Roots Movement, Messianic Judaism, and Netzarim streams of thought and related sects.

The term “Messianic” is generally understood to describe Jews who have come to believe in Yeshua/Jesus as their Messiah. Jews who are believers in Jesus/Yeshua typically call themselves Jewish/Hebrew Christians or simply, Christians.

Many Christians meet folks who say they are ‘Messianic’ and assume that those folks are Jewish Christians. Most aren’t Jewish at all, but are Gentile Christians who have chosen to pursue Torah observance. . .calling themselves Messianic Christians, adherents to Messianic Judaism, or simply, Messianics. Some will even try to avoid that label and say that they are followers of "The Way".

These Gentiles (and to be fair, some Messianic Jews) preach Torah observance/pursuance for Christians, persuading many believers that the Christianity of the Bible is a false religion and that we must return to the faith of the first century sect of Judaism that they say Yeshua (Jesus Christ) embraced. According to them, once you become aware that you should be 'keeping' the edicts and regulations of Mosaic Covenant Law, if you do not, you are then in willful disobedience to God.

It has been my observation that Christians who adopt the label of Messianic identify more with the tenets of Judaism than they do with the tenets of Christianity. Many reject the label of Christian altogether and some eventually even convert to Judaism.​

Macie,

This is what I am cautioning you against.

Elin



​

 

[jb]

Not quite. There still are men and women right?
There still is bond and free, right?
What it is saying is when it comes to salvation/justification there is no difference.
There are saved Gentiles and saved Jews.

This is correct, BUT there is NO such thing as a Messianic Christian (this term is man-made)...Period!

There are just Christians, ie those who belong to the Body of Christ!

 

[RedTent]

What JGIG Is:

Joyfully Growing In Grace engages in an examination of beliefs found in the Hebrew Roots Movement, Messianic Judaism, and Netzarim streams of thought and related sects.
-JGIG

How very sad!! An entire organization and way of life dedicated to being sure that learning more about God is stopped!! Do they go into our major theological colleges, too, to stop professors of ancient Hebrew culture?

Mormons base their religion on that some metal was found in the East Coast of Am. that told them new things supposedly by God, Muslims claim a prophet came in 500 AD that did the same, some Protestant people claim Jesus is inferior to God, and these are passed over. Roots people stay strictly to the bible, when they study the OT they study it as it ties into the NT. They go only by God's scripture and do not add or take away, as many of the protestant churches say scripture asks us to do. Yet you dedicate yourselves to "exposing" this movement to learn as against God!! It is sad.

I have even read your fight centered on accusing these people of using their works as so powerful they are saved by them, something no one has done. It is as if the fight is a no holds barred, no rules, just fight them.

 

[maxwel]

How very sad!! An entire organization and way of life dedicated to being sure that learning more about God is stopped!! Do they go into our major theological colleges, too, to stop professors of ancient Hebrew culture?

Mormons base their religion on that some metal was found in the East Coast of Am. that told them new things supposedly by God, Muslims claim a prophet came in 500 AD that did the same, some Protestant people claim Jesus is inferior to God, and these are passed over. Roots people stay strictly to the bible, when they study the OT they study it as it ties into the NT. They go only by God's scripture and do not add or take away, as many of the protestant churches say scripture asks us to do. Yet you dedicate yourselves to "exposing" this movement to learn as against God!! It is sad.

I have even read your fight centered on accusing these people of using their works as so powerful they are saved by them, something no one has done. It is as if the fight is a no holds barred, no rules, just fight them.

If the Hebrew Roots Movement is all fine and good, then there shouldn't be anything to "expose".

So what's the problem?

 

[crossnote]

I see the spiritual meaning of rituals and how it was used as we use the HS and our understanding to reach the spiritual meaning of rituals.

Ridiculous. We don't 'use' the Holy Spirit, if anything He uses us and by His grace enlightens us to His Word. I see why your confusion persists.

 

[crossnote]

This is correct, BUT there is NO such thing as a Messianic Christian (this term is man-made)...Period!

There are just Christians, ie those who belong to the Body of Christ!

Did I say Messianic Christian? Sorry, I meant Messianic Gentile as compared to a Messianic Jew.
''Messianic Christian would be a redundant term.''

 

[crossnote]

This is correct, BUT there is NO such thing as a Messianic Christian (this term is man-made)...Period!

There are just Christians, ie those who belong to the Body of Christ!

Now I see I never said 'Messianic Christian';
I said 'There are saved Gentiles and saved Jews.'

 

[RedTent]

Ridiculous. We don't 'use' the Holy Spirit, if anything He uses us and by His grace enlightens us to His Word. I see why your confusion persists.

Are you now into judging others based on your rules of English? My confusion as you put it in your English lessons, is not in misunderstanding the HS. Following the HS, even if it is called used, is NOT ridiculous, your picking up on that word and making into a reason to nail me is ridiculous.

 

[jb]

Now I see I never said 'Messianic Christian';
I said 'There are saved Gentiles and saved Jews.'

Neither did I say that you used the term "Messianic Christian"

I was simply emphasising to ALL that there are just "Christians" and not "--------- (any added word) Christians"!

 

[RedTent]

If the Hebrew Roots Movement is all fine and good, then there shouldn't be anything to "expose".

So what's the problem?

No movement is all fine and good as it is executed by man. The Protestant Revolution, fine as it was, was not all fine and good as individual people carried it out. But the protestant movement was fine and good, and backed by the Lord. So are the goals of this movement fine and good and backed by the Lord.

The movement is carried out by men doing the best they can and often making mistakes. Any mistakes found are used by the people against the movement to stop the movement.

If that effort was to help the world know God better, using all the information these people have gathered, but do it in the closest way to being completely fine and good there would be no problem. They aren't. They are using any flaw they see to throw stones, to use against God. They are being the Catholics against change, and using any means to stop growth.

There are things to expose, those things are not used to help correct the movement, but to stop it. That is a problem.