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Thread: Messianic Christians?

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    Senior Member Macie's Avatar
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    Exclamation Messianic Christians?

    I was raised Baptist and I grew up with Baptist beliefs. My mom got married to my stepdad...who is a Messianic Christian. I'm sorta conflicted with these teachings. This whole way of worshiping is very new to me, and I just wondered if there is anybody else who have the same beliefs?
    Don’t let anyone look down on you because you are young, but set an example for the believers in speech, in conduct, in love, in faith and in purity
    ~1 Timothy 4:12

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    You are only 14!! How adult you must be. I am 87! I am going to talk to you as if you are completely adult.

    I worship in both the Messianic and Baptist church. I find the messianic church very satisfying. I find them much more knowledgeable about what God is telling us about His principles in the Old Testament. I was bewildered for awhile. Messianic teaches we should learn the principles God taught through the rituals. Other churches sometime teach the rituals are wrong. Messianic learn about the animal sacrifices as a symbol of Christ and His more complete sacrifice and an explanation of what Christ accomplished. Other churches sometimes teach that the sacrificial system was all wrong. Messianic say God is eternal, He never changes. They learn about all the covenants, other churches sometimes teach that God made a mistake in the first, wiped them out, and made a completely new covenant. Messianic say we need to understand the OT to understand the NT. It is like going to grammar school before you get to high school. Other churches say there was such a change in Christ that the OT does not apply that much to us.

    Messianic ideas were new to me when I first heard of them. As I searched scripture and the history of the ideas that developed as our earthly church developed, I simply cried. But as I search, pray, and study scripture, they really make sense to me.

    The only thing that God asks of you is to love the Lord with all your mind, heart, and soul and others as yourself. Both the Messianic and Baptists do that. They both understand the true God, and accept Christ as the Messiah. I think you can truly go to either to worship your Lord.
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    Senior Member Macie's Avatar
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    Default Re: Messianic Christians?

    One of the first things that hit me was "Wow..this is so deep." All the Hebrew words and concepts...it put a whole new twist on things. As far as the understand the OT to understanding the NT...that was a foreign concept. I was always taught that the OT was the past and the NT was what stood for today. Whereas, in the Messianic Church, the OT was where the main teachings were found. The first time I went with my stepdad, their teachings just blew me away with how in depth they were. I'm not quite sure about the whole thing because it's very different from the Baptist, but I really do think there is a lot to gain from the Messianic. I just have to get used to it. It also amazed me how they would take from the OT and connect the dots to the NT...which I was never taught that and how everything is related. I think it's going to take some getting used to but I think I'm going to like it...i'm just not completely sure yet.
    Don’t let anyone look down on you because you are young, but set an example for the believers in speech, in conduct, in love, in faith and in purity
    ~1 Timothy 4:12

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    Default Re: Messianic Christians?

    There is a lot to learn in this book of love that God has given us. You are right! It is deep! Deeper than we know. We just need to dig in to figure it out!
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    Default Re: Messianic Christians?

    Its very sad that we deal with such a discrepancy. I believe that the OT is all about Jesus when you look at it carefully, that the more you understand about the OT the more you understand God and why He did what He did on and through the cross. It is sad that so many have ignored the OT and as such damaged their understanding of the NT. It is cool that Messianic Churches get that and I strive for and hope that all churches everywhere would get that too (not saying that none do, but that there could and should be more). A radio DJ said recently that 99% of christians don't believe in the bible literally as a whole and though I think his number might be a bit high. . .from my experience and knowledge he sadly isn't as far off as I wish he was.
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    Senior Member Shilo's Avatar
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    Default Re: Messianic Christians?

    Jeremiah 6:16 This is what the LORD says: "Stand at the crossroads and look; ask for the ancient paths, ask where the good way is, and walk in it, and you will find rest for your souls. But you said, 'We will not walk in it.

    I have gone to just about every Christian church branch there is. I find it comforting to see how the GOD of the new Testament and old testament are the Same GOD that he does not change. I find the Prayer shawl such an act of love
    . It is like God’s own tassel has covered the sky to remind us of his instructions. Each fringe we are to put on the four corners of our garment has 39 windings In between five sets of 2 knots. The 39 windings correspondences to the numerical value of the Hebrew phrase “Yahweh Echad. ( YHVH is one). DEUTERONOMY 6:4 Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one (echad) LORD. This makes me think of Yeshua with the unbroken law inside him. He received 39 lashes. Yeshua is pictured in the tassel.

    Deuteronomy 25:3 but he must not give him more than forty lashes. If he is flogged more than that, your brother will be degraded in your eyes

    2 Corinthians 11:24 Five times I received from the Jews the forty lashes minus one

    The modest dress, The prays of old, Messianicteaching open up the wordof Godto my spirit like nothing I have ever heard before. We just celebrated Shavuot /Pentecost. It was so beautiful the dancing in the lifting up of the bread. At one point the whole Synagogue was dancing. The blowing of the Shofar. The reading of the book of Ruth. Boaz and Ruth’s Child was that one new man, both Jew and gentile together as one.

    When we watch the Torah go around the room, Reminding us to keep our eyes on him and his word. When the Torah is being put back and we hold our tassel and point our little finger toward the Torah. What does this remind us of ? Micah 6:8 He has showed you, O man, what is good. And what does the LORD require of you? To act justly and to love mercy and to walk humbly with your God
    Justice = Torah, Mercy = Tassel , Humbly = little finger
    Last edited by Shilo; May 29th, 2012 at 06:49 PM.
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    Senior Member Macie's Avatar
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    Default Re: Messianic Christians?

    It really is sad. All throughout the OT people are prophesying the coming of the lord, and if you look closely at some verses you can see they are refering to the Messiah who has not yet come. They prophesied things that have already taken place in the NT and things that are yet to take place. And if they don't unerstand the OT...then how are they going to look for the signs for things that are going to happen in the future?
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    Don’t let anyone look down on you because you are young, but set an example for the believers in speech, in conduct, in love, in faith and in purity
    ~1 Timothy 4:12

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    Default Re: Messianic Christians?

    The deep things of God bring us to a place of laying our life down for the brethren. Jesus did it when he laid His life down for us and I don't think that anyone would dare say that He did not understand the deep things of God. There are those that are feed with the milk of the word all the time and have not been weaned and never grow in grace and meat of the word.

    The deep things of God teach us to grow in grace and knowledge.

    The deep things of God teach us to be led by and to walk in the Spirit.

    The deep things of God teach the believer to make no provision for the flesh.

    The deep things of God are those things the Spirit teaches that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.

    The deep things of God have to do with the mystery of the church and the body of Christ being revealed under the new covenant.

    The deep things of God reveal Christ as the head of the church and that we are members of His body, flesh and bones.

    The deep things of God is the superabundant greater grace that abounds toward the believer when they least deserve it.

    The deep things of God reveal how we are built together as a habitation of God through the Spirit.

    The deep things of God are all the promises of God that are yea and amen and through them the believer is a partaker of God's divine nature.

    These are the deep things of God that are revealed to us by the Spirit in the church that are FREELY given to us and FREELY received so that it is ALL GRACE and none of it BY WORKS!

    If the Messianic Christian believes in the deep things of God, then they will demonstrate them through a laid down life that esteems others better than themselves because they are crucified with CHRIST and live in the blood of the new testament covenant that has justified them by faith through the Spirit and not through any works or adherence to the law of the commandments through the flesh.
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    Default Re: Messianic Christians?

    I've heard of Messianic Judaism, but never Messianic Christianity. Aren't all Christians 'Messianic'?

    Please elaborate! This is interesting.
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    Default Re: Messianic Christians?

    Quote Originally Posted by rainacorn View Post
    I've heard of Messianic Judaism, but never Messianic Christianity. Aren't all Christians 'Messianic'?

    Please elaborate! This is interesting.
    I see no one replied to this post, though it is old and I don't know if it'll be read by the poster (if a person can be called a poster)....Yea, Messianic Christian sounds strange. But what is meant by Messianic is that we recognize the origins of the church, the bible, and even our Lord as being Hebrew. We as gentiles seem to believe, because we were taught that way, that the Jewish Remnant has nothing to do with the church. But that could not be more wrong. The church began with Jewish believers who observed the festivals, who kept the sabbaths, and teachings of the old testament. Even after the crucifixion you'll see in scriptures that the apostles kept the teachings of the old testament, but with a twist, they recognized and accepted Jesus as Messiah. As believers we are not required to keep the Law in it's ordinances and sacrifices, but observing the festivals as remembrances and teachings is really getting into the very meaning(s) behind them. It helps me to understand more of the New Testament.
    Speaking of the New Testament, that's one thing lately I've come across that blew me away. We as gentile christians separate the bible into old and new, there is not a separation between the two...what we call the new testament is building upon, added to the 'old'. The Complete Jewish Bible is one continuous book, though like any other translation some scriptures may be debatable.
    And we also need to remember that as the bible says, the Lord has made us both one together, to make of the two people (Jew and Gentile) one new man. Ephesians 2:11-19.
    We gentiles are part with them, not the Jew conforming to gentile style church. We can't rightly call ourselves Messianic Jews, because we are not. So, being part with them spiritually, as part of the household of God (Ep. 2:19) we can call ourselves Messianic Christians! Hope that answered your question.
    This comes from someone who is Missionary Baptist and I've never attended a Messianic Congregation. I go to a good church, but they have not come to this belief yet, I consider myself Messianic all the same. All I've learned is online. A good source is hebrew4christians.com

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    Senior Member RedTent's Avatar
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    Default Re: Messianic Christians?

    Quote Originally Posted by daisymae View Post
    I see no one replied to this post, though it is old and I don't know if it'll be read by the poster (if a person can be called a poster)....Yea, Messianic Christian sounds strange. But what is meant by Messianic is that we recognize the origins of the church, the bible, and even our Lord as being Hebrew. We as gentiles seem to believe, because we were taught that way, that the Jewish Remnant has nothing to do with the church. But that could not be more wrong. The church began with Jewish believers who observed the festivals, who kept the sabbaths, and teachings of the old testament. Even after the crucifixion you'll see in scriptures that the apostles kept the teachings of the old testament, but with a twist, they recognized and accepted Jesus as Messiah. As believers we are not required to keep the Law in it's ordinances and sacrifices, but observing the festivals as remembrances and teachings is really getting into the very meaning(s) behind them. It helps me to understand more of the New Testament.
    Speaking of the New Testament, that's one thing lately I've come across that blew me away. We as gentile christians separate the bible into old and new, there is not a separation between the two...what we call the new testament is building upon, added to the 'old'. The Complete Jewish Bible is one continuous book, though like any other translation some scriptures may be debatable.
    And we also need to remember that as the bible says, the Lord has made us both one together, to make of the two people (Jew and Gentile) one new man. Ephesians 2:11-19.
    We gentiles are part with them, not the Jew conforming to gentile style church. We can't rightly call ourselves Messianic Jews, because we are not. So, being part with them spiritually, as part of the household of God (Ep. 2:19) we can call ourselves Messianic Christians! Hope that answered your question.
    This comes from someone who is Missionary Baptist and I've never attended a Messianic Congregation. I go to a good church, but they have not come to this belief yet, I consider myself Messianic all the same. All I've learned is online. A good source is hebrew4christians.com
    You have put it so well. I am not a Messianic, either, I go to a Nazarene Church.

    It was pointed out to me that we are so separated from the culture of the people God used to explain His principles that it is hard for us to understand, creation was 6,000 years ago. Just think of the changes in how people thought only 500 years ago, we needed to bridge the gap. Many feel that it is an act of God giving us information like in the deep sea scrolls about ancient people that helps us do that. When people studied ancient history in college 70 years ago, it was lacking much of what we know, now. There were no churches who worked at connecting the God told of in the OT with Christ as told in the NT, this movement is so old it is new.

    In my church, my wonderful pastor with his doctorate, even, does not understand the movement except as supposedly using rituals in an unchristian way. He cannot comprehend exploring them as part of God and Christ, and not as works for salvation. He feels the only way to better understand Christ is through the apostles. Yet, I find only 10% of the bible gives us that. 78% is in the OT, and of the 22% of the New Testament, the OT is spoken of in 12% of the new. That leaves 10%. God meant us to discover much about God in the OT. He, like many people, read the OT without seeing God as part of Christ there. Many read the OT as a place where God stones people!! They approve our justice system with it's jails but say that God's system is flawed. They don't look at the many checks and balances, or the justice that system requires.

    Perhaps there are churches in the system that are flawed. Certainly, many churches outside the system are very flawed. But the idea was brought in by God as surely as God brought in the ideas of the protestant reformation.

    Today we need a reformation as surely as they did in 1500. That reformation has to do with understanding God as God is explained in the OT and how it relates to the NT, and also a new look at God's purpose for the Jewish race God established and the relationship it has with all of people who believe in Christ. This movement does that.

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    That explains a lot and I mean a lot Tent.

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    Default Re: Messianic Christians?

    Some Messianic Jews argue that Jesus' apostles were the first Jews to accept him as Messiah. In modern times, the movement traces its roots to Great Britain in the mid 19th century. The Hebrew Christian Alliance and Prayer Union of Great Britain was founded in 1866 for Jews who wanted to keep their Jewish customs but take on Christian theology. The Messianic Jewish Alliance of America (MJAA), started in 1915, was the first major U.S. group. Jews for Jesus, now the largest and most prominent of the Messianic Jewish organizations in the U.S., was founded in California in 1973.

    Prominent Founders:
    Dr. C. Schwartz, Joseph Rabinowitz, Rabbi Isaac Lichtenstein, Ernest Lloyd, Sid Roth, Moishe Rosen.

    Geography:
    Messianic Jews are spread across the world, with large numbers in the United States and Great Britain, as well as in Europe, Latin and South America, and Africa.

    Messianic Judaism Governing Body:

    No single group governs Messianic Jews. More than 165 independent Messianic Judaism congregations exist worldwide, not counting ministries and fellowships. Some of the associations include Messianic Jewish Alliance of America, International Alliance of Messianic Congregations and Synagogues, Union of Messianic Jewish Congregations, and Fellowship of Messianic Jewish Congregations.


    Sacred or Distinguishing Text:
    The Hebrew Bible (Tanakh) and the New Testament (B'rit Chadasha).

    Notable Messianic Judaism Members:
    Mortimer Adler, Moishe Rosen, Henri Bergson, Benjamin Disraeli, Robert Novak, Jay Sekulow, Edith Stein.

    Messianic Judaism Beliefs and Practices:

    Messianic Jews accept Yeshua (Jesus of Nazareth) as the Messiah promised in the Old Testament. They observe the Sabbath on Saturday, along with traditional Jewish holy days, such as Passover and Sukkot. Messianic Jews hold many beliefs in common with evangelical Christians, such as the virgin birth, atonement, the Trinity, inerrancy of the Bible, and the resurrection. Many Messianic Jews are charismatic and speak in tongues.
    Messianic Jews baptize people who are of the age of accountability (able to accept Yeshua as Messiah). Baptism is by immersion. They practice Jewish rituals, such as bar mitzvah for sons and bat mitzvah for daughters, say kaddish for the deceased, and cant the Torah in Hebrew at worship services.

    To learn more about what Messianic Jews believe, visit Messianic Jews' Beliefs and Practices.
    (Information in this article is summarized from the following sources: MessianicAssociation.org, MessianicJews.info, imja.org, hadavar.org, ReligiousTolerance.org, and IsraelinProphecy.org)
    Last edited by Osiyo; May 3rd, 2014 at 09:34 AM.
    In fact the Book of Revelations says, that when the 4 and twenty elders fall at the feet of Jesus, they have these golden bowls. And you know what’s in the bowls? This incense that is so fragrant to Christ, it’s the prayers of the saints. I mean what must prayer mean to God that He keeps it in bowls. Just imagine that when you or I kneel or stand or pray seated, and we really open our hearts to God. Somehow those things are kept. They are so precious to God.

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    jb
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    Default Re: Messianic Christians?

    Messianic Christian
    Gal 3v28: "There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus."

    Col 3v11: "Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all."

    Along with Eph 2v1-22...

    And so forth...

    Don't make differences where there are none!

    Yahweh Shalom...

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    Default Re: Messianic Christians?

    Quote Originally Posted by jb View Post
    Gal 3v28: "There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus."

    Col 3v11: "Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all."

    Along with Eph 2v1-22...

    And so forth...

    Don't make differences where there are none!

    Yahweh Shalom...
    That's just it, the whole point is to identify with the body of Christ. The believing remnant of Israel and the Church are one and the same. For too long, we in Christian Churches have been taught there is a separation between the two and there is not in God's eyes, as you have shown with scripture references. We all call ourselves something, denominations of one kind or another to identify with, this is a way to call attention to the greater "household of God". Check out Galatians 3:7-9; Ephesians 2:12-14,19

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    Quote Originally Posted by RedTent View Post
    You have put it so well. I am not a Messianic, either, I go to a Nazarene Church.

    It was pointed out to me that we are so separated from the culture of the people God used to explain His principles that it is hard for us to understand, creation was 6,000 years ago. Just think of the changes in how people thought only 500 years ago, we needed to bridge the gap. Many feel that it is an act of God giving us information like in the deep sea scrolls about ancient people that helps us do that. When people studied ancient history in college 70 years ago, it was lacking much of what we know, now. There were no churches who worked at connecting the God told of in the OT with Christ as told in the NT, this movement is so old it is new.

    In my church, my wonderful pastor with his doctorate, even, does not understand the movement except as supposedly using rituals in an unchristian way. He cannot comprehend exploring them as part of God and Christ, and not as works for salvation. He feels the only way to better understand Christ is through the apostles. Yet, I find only 10% of the bible gives us that. 78% is in the OT, and of the 22% of the New Testament, the OT is spoken of in 12% of the new. That leaves 10%. God meant us to discover much about God in the OT. He, like many people, read the OT without seeing God as part of Christ there. Many read the OT as a place where God stones people!! They approve our justice system with it's jails but say that God's system is flawed. They don't look at the many checks and balances, or the justice that system requires.

    Perhaps there are churches in the system that are flawed. Certainly, many churches outside the system are very flawed. But the idea was brought in by God as surely as God brought in the ideas of the protestant reformation.

    Today we need a reformation as surely as they did in 1500. That reformation has to do with understanding God as God is explained in the OT and how it relates to the NT, and also a new look at God's purpose for the Jewish race God established and the relationship it has with all of people who believe in Christ. This movement does that.
    " He cannot comprehend exploring them as part of God and Christ, and not as works for salvation."

    I will give you a chance to explain what is meant by this, but I have to say that I don't believe in "works for salvation".
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    Quote Originally Posted by daisymae View Post
    " He cannot comprehend exploring them as part of God and Christ, and not as works for salvation."

    I will give you a chance to explain what is meant by this, but I have to say that I don't believe in "works for salvation".
    It is not my intention to quarrel, just to understand.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Osiyo View Post
    Some Messianic Jews argue that Jesus' apostles were the first Jews to accept him as Messiah. In modern times, the movement traces its roots to Great Britain in the mid 19th century. The Hebrew Christian Alliance and Prayer Union of Great Britain was founded in 1866 for Jews who wanted to keep their Jewish customs but take on Christian theology. The Messianic Jewish Alliance of America (MJAA), started in 1915, was the first major U.S. group. Jews for Jesus, now the largest and most prominent of the Messianic Jewish organizations in the U.S., was founded in California in 1973.

    Prominent Founders:
    Dr. C. Schwartz, Joseph Rabinowitz, Rabbi Isaac Lichtenstein, Ernest Lloyd, Sid Roth, Moishe Rosen.

    Geography:
    Messianic Jews are spread across the world, with large numbers in the United States and Great Britain, as well as in Europe, Latin and South America, and Africa.

    Messianic Judaism Governing Body:

    No single group governs Messianic Jews. More than 165 independent Messianic Judaism congregations exist worldwide, not counting ministries and fellowships. Some of the associations include Messianic Jewish Alliance of America, International Alliance of Messianic Congregations and Synagogues, Union of Messianic Jewish Congregations, and Fellowship of Messianic Jewish Congregations.


    Sacred or Distinguishing Text:
    The Hebrew Bible (Tanakh) and the New Testament (B'rit Chadasha).

    Notable Messianic Judaism Members:
    Mortimer Adler, Moishe Rosen, Henri Bergson, Benjamin Disraeli, Robert Novak, Jay Sekulow, Edith Stein.

    Messianic Judaism Beliefs and Practices:

    Messianic Jews accept Yeshua (Jesus of Nazareth) as the Messiah promised in the Old Testament. They observe the Sabbath on Saturday, along with traditional Jewish holy days, such as Passover and Sukkot. Messianic Jews hold many beliefs in common with evangelical Christians, such as the virgin birth, atonement, the Trinity, inerrancy of the Bible, and the resurrection. Many Messianic Jews are charismatic and speak in tongues.
    Messianic Jews baptize people who are of the age of accountability (able to accept Yeshua as Messiah). Baptism is by immersion. They practice Jewish rituals, such as bar mitzvah for sons and bat mitzvah for daughters, say kaddish for the deceased, and cant the Torah in Hebrew at worship services.

    To learn more about what Messianic Jews believe, visit Messianic Jews' Beliefs and Practices.
    (Information in this article is summarized from the following sources: MessianicAssociation.org, MessianicJews.info, imja.org, hadavar.org, ReligiousTolerance.org, and IsraelinProphecy.org)
    There is a BIG difference between checking the basic concept of searching every OT verse to better understand Christ, and checking the individual churches based on this concept. If someone decides to join one of these churches, then it is wise to check every one for how well they adhere to scripture. If you are checking on the basic concept, then it is wise to go to scripture for the answer.

    Many people have been taught to never even consider anything about a ritual like dietary laws, but if a church feels that everything in the OT must be checked for God's principles then they are not afraid of even the dietary laws, even though all Paul has to say about them must be checked just as thoroughly. Some people, when they look only at the ways of today's church, say AHHHH HORRORS, these are Judaism, everything about them must be avoided at all costs, this is a cult, down with the entire concept. So they can not know anything about the movement, they are unable to even think about it, not because of scripture but because of their inability to put all scripture together. Anyone who will not listen to Paul is not listening to scripture. Anyone who is not listening to what scripture says about the dietary laws is not listening to scripture. It takes both and making both fit together.

    Others get so caught up in ways of this church rather than the concept of knowing all of God, they put on such superficial things, using them as worship instead of real worship and knowing God, that even as members of the movement they distort it.


    It is like the protestant revolution, many Catholics said "horrors" and many in the new movement distorted it.

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    Senior Member crossnote's Avatar
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    Default Re: Messianic Christians?

    Quote Originally Posted by jb View Post
    Gal 3v28: "There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus."

    Col 3v11: "Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all."

    Along with Eph 2v1-22...

    And so forth...

    Don't make differences where there are none!

    Yahweh Shalom...
    Not quite. There still are men and women right?
    There still is bond and free, right?
    What it is saying is when it comes to salvation/justification there is no difference.
    There are saved Gentiles and saved Jews.
    psalm6819 likes this.
    IF IT TAKES YOU MORE THAN THREE SENTENCES TO EXPRESS YOUR POSITION, YOU PROBABLY DON'T UNDERSTAND IT YOURSELF!

  20. #20
    Senior Member crossnote's Avatar
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    Default Re: Messianic Christians?

    For the most part the Messianic movement is fine although comprised mainly of Gentiles it's basic weakness is that it is all over the map. I have been to some that are highly legalistic and some where even I got a little nervous over their laxity.
    IF IT TAKES YOU MORE THAN THREE SENTENCES TO EXPRESS YOUR POSITION, YOU PROBABLY DON'T UNDERSTAND IT YOURSELF!

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