Hebrews 1: The Son, God Manifested in the Flesh...Verbal Study

GreenNnice · Jun 5, 2012

What cee said, is excellent interp.

yes, our God is The Almighty Sovereign all-power, at any time, He can, and, if need be, do anything to accomplish His great work, even make an angel into a carriage to get you, or, Cinderella, home by the time the bells of curfew toll.

You can go anywhere on planet Earth, in the farthest deepness of South America or Africa and He will STILL know exactly where you have flown, walked, run, jumped, well, ok, I guess not 'jumped,'

to and will make things as He needs to accomplish His purpose(s).

This verse seems to be speaking ,literally , transformationally of God changing a human form of His angels into spirits (wind form) and His ministers , again a human form into a element form, fire.

The Lord is telling us it is He who makes effective the works of his servants, it is He who enables his servants to reach out to his people and also enable them to sanctify his people.

Speaking here like in Isaiah 66:1 , too, parallelism, past to present tense , praphrased, but God speaks, Who made these things? The Heavens are my throne and the Earth is my footstool.

This so puts into magnitude how almighty the Almighty really truly is

cfultz3 · Jun 6, 2012

Heb 1:8 προςG4314 PREP - (as pertaining to) δεG1161 CONJ - (but) τον υιονG5207 N-ASM - (the Son) ο θρονοςG2362 N-NSM - (the throne) σουG4771 P-2GS - (Your) ο θεοςG2316 N-NSM - (the God) ειςG1519 PREP - (is for (purpose)) τον αιωναG165 N-ASM - (the period (time period)) του αιωνοςG165 N-GSM - (of that Age) ραβδοςG4464 N-NSF - (a scepter) ευθυτητοςG2118 N-GSF - (of rectitude (the state of absolute conformity to righteousness)) η ραβδοςG4464 N-NSF - (is the scepter) της βασιλειαςG932 N-GSF - (of the kingdom) σουG4771 P-2GS - (Your)

Heb 1:8 But as pertaining to the Son, "Your throne, God, is for (purpose) the period (time period) of that Age. A scepter of rectitude (the state of absolute conformity to righteousness) is the scepter of Your kingdom.

KJV Heb 1:8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.

Notes (no verbs )

God = God calling God God. That is, God the Father calling God the Word God. If it was God the Word who became flesh, then that which was in the flesh still remains God.

throne = As concerning the Son, the man Jesus, it was God the Father, speaking in the future tense, who established His throne as the days of Heaven, (Psa 89:29) declaring that His throne shall abide as the sun which is before God, and as the moon having had been made forever, and as the trustworthy Witness (the Word) in Heaven, (Psa 89:36-37). However you wish to say it, "forever and ever (forevermore)" or "is for the period of that Age", implies that His, the Son, throne has a beginning. BUT, it is the same throne which God the Word had before becoming human, but now that throne is occupied by the Word as the resurrected Son. My only purpose is to show to you that the Son has a beginning, but as the Word, He is from all eternity, God Himself. If I have not made myself clear, Jesus was God in the flesh, but that fleshly God has a beginning.

for the period of that Age...Your kingdom = We understand from Scripture that the Son's kingdom, the new Jerusalem, the holy city prepared from God in Heaven, was prepared for the age to come, His kingdom is not from this world. In the KJV it is rendered "for ever and ever", but that simply means "forevermore".

I am lead to ask someone else to expand upon this verse, as the Spirit leads, so speak.

Beloved57 · Jun 6, 2012

I Timothy 3:16 KJV
And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.
If I understand right many translations change God in this verse above to he, which is sad for as you have stated Jesus is God in the flesh, and this would prove this. For Jesus as the Word of God had no beginning (John 1:1-4). But when the Word became man/that is the Son of Man/Son of God well His physical body had a beginning:
John 1:14
And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father.) full of grace and truth.
In this sense Jesus, is as the Bible states the firstfruit (I Corinthians 15:20) or even beginning/chief of the creation of God (Revelation 3:14). For as the Son of God (for all sons have a beginning) Jesus had a beginning, but as the Word He has always been (John 8:58). When Jesus rose from the dead He became the firstfruit of those of us who will follow Him by His power, and He became the Beginning/Chief of the New Creation of God (II Corinthians 5:17; Ephesians 4:24) for His resurrection body was the beginning of the Resurrection of all.
Matthew 26:52-53
52) And the graves were opened: and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
53) And came out of the graves after His resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.
I underlined this part to show no one rose from the dead until after Christ.

For as Paul stated in Adam (Old Creation) all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive (New Creation) I Corinthians 15:22.

For the writer of Hebrews quotes the Psalms in stating that God would come in the flesh (Hebrews 10:4-8 compare to Psalms 40:6-9). But I like the last book of the Old Covenant/Old Testament best about God coming to His Temple.
Malachi 3:1
Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before Me: and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall come to His Temple, even the Messenger of the the Covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, He shall come, saith the LORD of hosts.
Jesus is the Messenger of the New Covenant/New Testament. He went to His Temple in Jerusalem and now make those of us who believe in Him as Saviour the New Temple of God for we house the Holy Spirit (I Corinthian 3:16; 6:19-20).

In the fact that we see the Word become flesh, and the Holy Spirit indwell the Believers, I think we see the type of the Feast of Tabernacles/Sukkot/Booth being fulfilled. See John 7:2, 37-39.

cfultz3 · Jun 6, 2012

Beloved57 said:

I Timothy 3:16 KJV
And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.
If I understand right many translations change God in this verse above to he, which is sad for as you have stated Jesus is God in the flesh, and this would prove this. For Jesus as the Word of God had no beginning (John 1:1-4). But when the Word became man/that is the Son of Man/Son of God well His physical body had a beginning:
John 1:14
And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father.) full of grace and truth.
In this sense Jesus, is as the Bible states the firstfruit (I Corinthians 15:20) or even beginning/chief of the creation of God (Revelation 3:14). For as the Son of God (for all sons have a beginning) Jesus had a beginning, but as the Word He has always been (John 8:58). When Jesus rose from the dead He became the firstfruit of those of us who will follow Him by His power, and He became the Beginning/Chief of the New Creation of God (II Corinthians 5:17; Ephesians 4:24) for His resurrection body was the beginning of the Resurrection of all.
Matthew 26:52-53
52) And the graves were opened: and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
53) And came out of the graves after His resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.
I underlined this part to show no one rose from the dead until after Christ.

For as Paul stated in Adam (Old Creation) all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive (New Creation) I Corinthians 15:22.

For the writer of Hebrews quotes the Psalms in stating that God would come in the flesh (Hebrews 10:4-8 compare to Psalms 40:6-9). But I like the last book of the Old Covenant/Old Testament best about God coming to His Temple.
Malachi 3:1
Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before Me: and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall come to His Temple, even the Messenger of the the Covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, He shall come, saith the LORD of hosts.
Jesus is the Messenger of the New Covenant/New Testament. He went to His Temple in Jerusalem and now make those of us who believe in Him as Saviour the New Temple of God for we house the Holy Spirit (I Corinthian 3:16; 6:19-20).

In the fact that we see the Word become flesh, and the Holy Spirit indwell the Believers, I think we see the type of the Feast of Tabernacles/Sukkot/Booth being fulfilled. See John 7:2, 37-39.

As the Spirit lead, thank you Beloved. As to 1 Timothy 3:16, the Textus Receptus, the same which the KJV used, the proper word is 'God'.

ebyown · Jun 6, 2012

this is beautiful if u can accept it. the quote comes from Psalm 45 so let's look at the whole Psalm. this Psalm appears to be the Spirit talking to YAHSHUA. Most of the Psalms are from YAHSHUA speaking. and even better it is a wedding Psalm. how appropriate for the Spirit's voice to be speaking such a Psalm since He indwells beleivers who are to be YAHSHUA's bride.

Blue is for Spirit and believers
Red is for YAHSHUA
Green is for Father
bold and underlined is for a Name or Title of Father Son or Spirit
yellow is for wicked

Psalm 45
For the Chief Musician. Set to "The Lilies."
A contemplation by the sons of Korah. A wedding song.

(Spirit to Son)

45:1 My heart overflows with a noble theme.
I recite My verses for the King.
My tongue is like the pen of a Skillful Writer.
45:2 You are the Most Excellent of the sons of men.
Grace has anointed Your lips,
therefore 'Elohiym has blessed You forever.
45:3 Strap Your sword on Your thigh, Mighty One:
Your splendor and Your Majesty.
45:4 In Your Majesty ride on victoriously
on behalf of truth, humility, and righteousness.
Let Your right hand display awesome deeds.
45:5 Your arrows are sharp.
The nations fall under You,
with arrows in the heart of the King’s enemies.
45:6 Your throne, 'Elohiym, is forever and ever.
A scepter of equity is the scepter of Your kingdom.
45:7 You have loved righteousness, and hated wickedness.

Therefore'Elohiym, Your 'Elohiym,
has anointed You with the oil of gladness
above Your fellows.

45:8 All Your garments smell like myrrh, aloes, and cassia.
Out of ivory palaces stringed instruments
have made You glad.
45:9 Kings’ daughters are among Your honorable women.
At Your right hand the queen stands in gold of Ophir.
45:10 Listen, daughter, consider, and turn your ear.
Forget your own people, and also your father’s house.

45:11 So the King will desire your beauty,
honor Him, for He is your 'Adown.
45:12 The daughter of Tyre comes with a gift.
The rich among the people entreat Your favor.
45:13 The princess inside is all glorious.
Her clothing is interwoven with gold.
45:14 She shall be led to the King in embroidered work.
The virgins, her companions who follow her,
shall be brought to You.
45:15 With gladness and rejoicing they shall be led.
They shall enter into the King’s palace.
45:16 Your sons will take the place of Your fathers.
You shall make them princes in all the earth.
45:17 I will make Your Name to be
remembered in all generations.
Therefore the peoples shall give
You thanks forever and ever.

So in verse 7 which is the quote it is the Spirit addressing YAHSHUA as 'Elohiym and referring to the The Father as Your 'Elohiym or YAHSHUA's 'Elohiym. So it is even better than realized because the Spirit is speaking to the Son about the Father about having annointed Him the Son. Amazing almost beyond belief. Time for a wedding.

AnandaHya · Jun 6, 2012

GreenNnice said:

what truly is amazing is how vast the universe is, yet God bottles every one of our tears and knows the number of hairs on our head. what are we that God listens to our prayers?

Luke 12:7
But the very hairs of your head are all numbered. Do not fear therefore; you are of more value than many sparrows.

Psalm 56:8
You number my wanderings; Put my tears into Your bottle; Are they not in Your book?

[video]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cjhxOv9YDag[/video]

GreenNnice · Jun 7, 2012

cfultz3 said:

Heb 1:8 προςG4314 PREP - (as pertaining to) δεG1161 CONJ - (but) τον υιονG5207 N-ASM - (the Son) ο θρονοςG2362 N-NSM - (the throne) σουG4771 P-2GS - (Your) ο θεοςG2316 N-NSM - (the God) ειςG1519 PREP - (is for (purpose)) τον αιωναG165 N-ASM - (the period (time period)) του αιωνος[/ACOLOR]G165 N-GSM - (of that Age) ραβδοςG4464 N-NSF - (a scepter) ευθυτητοςG2118 N-GSF - (of rectitude (the state of absolute conformity to righteousness)) η ραβδοςG4464 N-NSF - (is the scepter) της βασιλειαςG932 N-GSF - (of the kingdom) σουG4771 P-2GS - (Your)

Heb 1:8 But as pertaining to the Son, "Your throne, God, is for (purpose) the period (time period) of that Age. A scepter of rectitude (the state of absolute conformity to righteousness) is the scepter of Your kingdom.

KJV Heb 1:8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.

Notes (no verbs )

God = God calling God God. That is, God the Father calling God the Word God. If it was God the Word who became flesh, then that which was in the flesh still remains God.

throne = As concerning the Son, the man Jesus, it was God the Father, speaking in the future tense, who established His throne as the days of Heaven, (Psa 89:29) declaring that His throne shall abide as the sun which is before God, and as the moon having had been made forever, and as the trustworthy Witness (the Word) in Heaven, (Psa 89:36-37). However you wish to say it, "forever and ever (forevermore)" or "is for the period of that Age", implies that His, the Son, throne has a beginning. BUT, it is the same throne which God the Word had before becoming human, but now that throne is occupied by the Word as the resurrected Son. My only purpose is to show to you that the Son has a beginning, but as the Word, He is from all eternity, God Himself. If I have not made myself clear, Jesus was God in the flesh, but that fleshly God has a beginning.

for the period of that Age...Your kingdom = We understand from Scripture that the Son's kingdom, the new Jerusalem, the holy city prepared from God in Heaven, was prepared for the age to come, His kingdom is not from this world. In the KJV it is rendered "for ever and ever", but that simply means "forevermore".

I am lead to ask someone else to expand upon this verse, as the Spirit leads, so speak.

========= =
Well said, and, AMEN, belovedofGod, cee, eybro, and, Ana.

Yes, who are we but vessels made for His workmanship, to follow His ruling rod, exhibited in Love, so we can get to His Kingdom

Yes, there is much mystery and grandeur in scripture, glorious grandeur of Him, showing us, revealing to us in easily understandable words of His triune power and His authority over us to make us more and more righteous on earth (present tense) for His Kingdom. Again, God has divine rule over all this tells us.
His sceptre wields ALL power on His children, having chosen Him and His throne to be over their life

cfultz3 · Jun 7, 2012

I will start posting the rest of Hebrews 1 tomarrow, giving my mind a pause. Thank you all for your patience.

GreenNnice · Jun 7, 2012

cfultz3 said:

A time for pause, eh, cee ?

* insert picture of mirror here *

And, reflection

cfultz3 · Jun 7, 2012

GreenNnice said:

My brains are hurting, ouch

GreenNnice · Jun 7, 2012

cfultz3 said:

====//====
The Lord leads, cee, blessings, Christ bro. Great wordsmithing, you with word origining and verse translation is like a blacksmith slaving over a long piece of white-hot metal. He diligently slamming the sledge down on the piece, glowing fiery, 1000° hot, until its shaped and honed to a fine two-edged sword.

Scabbard Cee, THAT mate, I tell ya, arrrgh, I saw that boy take on the baddest, meanest, villainest 'beards' out there!

He's able to take on that 'Jack' fellow of all those Pirates' movies, beat Jack in a duel even, did he, bringing that scoundrel to the literal (sword) tip of death and granting him mercy, saying, 'Go, you landlubber, arrrrgh! And, sin no more, Heaven is real, your life has been spared by one named Jesus, who died for you and me. He always eye on you once His, His eyes will never leave you or forsake you, Sparrow. '

Way to lead this study, cee. Blessings for your work to you and for all who read your sharper than any two-edged sword reports on c.c. on this thread and all over . Rest your hurting brains in Him .

PneumaPsucheSoma · Jun 14, 2012

Just cut to the chase.

Trinity, as of the 381AD Second Ecumenical Council at Constantinople, is three hupostases of one ousia. Hupostases is the long-problematic source of ALL usage of "persons" for God.

Hebrews 1:3, however, indicates God is ONE hupostasis and the Son is the express image (charakter) OF THAT hupostasis, NOT another hupostasis. And the Holy Spirit is nowhere even hinted at being another hupostasis. And... "person" isn't the ideal rendering for hupostasis. Hupostasis means "to stand under", and refers to the assured absolute objective reality of a thing. Substance. Subsistence. F/S/HS are one hupostasis, representing the one singular underlying foundational reality.

If rendered as "person", it at least must be singular. God is NOT three hupostases. God is three "whatevers" of a singular hupostasis; NOT three hupostases of one "whatever".

Trinity's multiple hupostases is projection and superimposition of imported usage of those terms from Gnostic and Philosophic usage. It's not even a true deductive hermeneutic, and all else of Trinity is inferred based on this faulty foundation.

GreenNnice · Jun 15, 2012

PneumaPsucheSoma said:

Ever heard of the word, 'manifest,' breathspiritperson ??

It's manifestation, your theory is all proposition, you show no faith in the reality of God's revealed Truth manifest all throughout scripture, old and new . I pray God blesses you into a great understanding of who He is , the Father, the Son, the Holy Spirit, all of God , accomplished deity, and to us in this,way for faith to show His divine purposes and test us with excellent appreciation and belief in the power.

You MUST believe in His power, for by 'it' YOU will be raised

ebyown · Jun 15, 2012

well let' see what we are reading and try to see the Father, Son, Spirit relationship in this very passage. It is certainly not Someone just talking to Themselves or else Who did YAHSHUA pray to? And Whose Voice came from the heavens in the Gospels? There is obviously a Father, Son, Spirit relationship taking place between 3 distinct Personalities with separate voices and roles. Is that not the central message of the book of Hebrews as chapter 1 sets the foundation for?

1 'Elohiym, having in the past spoken to the fathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways, 2 has at the end of these days spoken to us by His(Father) Son, whom He(Father) appointed Heir(Son) of all things, through Whom(Son) also He(Father) made the worlds. 3 His(Father) Son is the radiance of His(Father) glory, the very Image(Son) of His(Father) substance, and upholding all things by the word of His(Son) power, when He(Son) had by Himself(Son) purified us of our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty(Father) on high; 4 having become so much better than the angels, as He(Son) has inherited a more excellent Name than they have. 5 For to which of the angels did He(Fahter) say at any time,
“You are My(Father) Son.
Today have I become Your(Son) Father?”
and again,
“I will be to Him(Son) a Father,
and He(Son) will be to Me(Father) a Son?”
6 When He(Father) again brings in the Firstborn(Son) into the world He(Spirit) says, “Let all the angels of Elohiym(Father) worship Him(Son).”
7 Of the angels He(Spirit) says,
“Who(Father) makes His(Father) angels winds,
and His(Father) servants a flame of fire.”
8 But of the Son He(Spirit) says,
“Your(Son) throne, O 'Elohiym(Son), is forever and ever.
The scepter of uprightness is the scepter of Your(Son) Kingdom.
9 You(Son) have loved righteousness, and hated iniquity;
therefore 'Elohiym(Son), Your(Son) 'Elohiym(Father), has anointed You(Son) with the oil of gladness above your fellows.”
10 And,
“You(Son), 'Adonay, in the beginning, laid the foundation of the earth.
The heavens are the works of Your(Son) hands.
11 They will perish, but You(Son) continue.
They all will grow old like a garment does.
12 You(Son) will roll them up like a mantle,
and they will be changed;
but You(Son) are the same.
Your(Son) years will not fail.”
13 But which of the angels has He(Father) told at any time,
“Sit at My(Father) right hand,
until I make Your(Son) enemies the footstool of Your(Son) feet?”
14 Aren’t they all serving spirits, sent out to do service for the sake of those who will inherit salvation?

PneumaPsucheSoma · Jun 16, 2012

GreenNnice said:

ebyown said:

Trinity, as of the Second Ecumenical Council at Constantinople in 381AD, is three hupostases of one ousia. I couldn't care less about English conceptualizations and the fallacious term "person/s" based on hupostasis/es. Hebrews 1:3 clearly indicates God has/is ONE hupostasis, and the Son is the express image OF THAT hupostasis; NOT another hupostasis. All the inference of "persons" from invalid non-deductive hermeneutics from indoctrinated Trinitarians is irrelevant.

God; His OWN Logos; and His OWN Spirit.

I affirm:
There is One Deity.
The Father is Deity.
The Holy Spirit is Deity.
The Word (Son) is Deity.
These Three are One Deity.
The Father is Eternally Pre-Existent.
The Holy Spirit is Eternally Pre-Existent.
The Word is Eternally Pre-Existent.
The Father is Uncreated and Unbegotten.
The Holy Spirit is Uncreated and Unbegotten.
The Son is Uncreated and the Only Begotten.
The Father is not the Holy Spirit nor the Son (Word).
The Holy Spirit is not the Father nor the Son (Word).
The Word (Son) is not the Father nor the Holy Spirit.
The Son proceeded forth and came from the Father, Sent by the Father.
The Holy Spirit proceedeth from the Father, Sent by the Father and the Son.
(The Holy Spirit proceedeth NOT from both the Father and the Son [Filioque], though Sent by Both.)
Jesus is the Son of God and is Fully Divine, Begotten of the Father by the Holy Spirit.
Jesus is the son of man and is fully human with a rational soul, born of the virgin by the Holy Spirit.
The Virgin Birth of Jesus was a Supernatural Procreative Act of God, NOT a Creative Act.
God hath made Jesus both Lord and Christ.

I also wholly affirm the Nicene Creed, though I disaffirm the later Filioque-based "persons"-laced anonymous Athanasian Creed.

But... God is NOT three hupostases of one ousia. The Son is the singular immanent prosopon of God's singular transcendent hupostasis.

No Celestial Siamese Triplets. No Gorilla-Glued God-People.

One transcendent God and His OWN Word made flesh and His OWN Spirit.

GreenNnice · Jun 16, 2012

PneumaPsucheSoma said:

You MUST have faith in what God says, taking it all in and making conclusion based on THAT evidence. You must NOT believe in your human interpretation of something given by faith. God speaks so clearly that He manifest Himself, Hisself became the baby Jesus, His Holy Spirit seed, their was NO egg.

Mary carried theChild, but there was no egg. Jesus submitted to His Father's will, who was of Himself.

Hard to understand how it alll makes sense, but, it does, my breathspiritperson friend. Yes, indeed, witn Him, in 'His name' is one way the great commission 'go into all the world, baptizing...' verse is stated by John while by ”the name of the Father, and, of the Son, and, the Holy Spirit,' is Matthew's verse, 24:14.

Subtle things show The triune reality of deity that is One God to.you, with two manifestations that are from Him.

I pray Jesus shows you (and me, and, all who read) all Truth.

PneumaPsucheSoma · Jun 18, 2012

GreenNnice said:

Trinity is three hupostases of one ousia. Heb. 1:3 says the Son is the express image OF God's singular hupostasis, not another hupostasis; and nowhere in scripture is the Holy Spirit referred to relative to hupostasis. Nor are F/S/HS referred to in scripture as ousia, whether individually or collectively. Ousia is used in scripture only twice, and both usages refer to material possessions or assets as goods, the substance of one's "stuff".

Trinity is unscriptural, utilizing imported usage of multiple hupostases and ousia from Gnostic and Philosophic beliefs at the time.

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