A refutation of Sola Scriptura (scripture alone)

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Jul 17, 2009
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#1
Here's a refutation of Sola Scriptura. This one is near and dear to a lot of hearts so let's remember to keep it civil (if anyone is compelled to reply). I offer this in Love.

Pt. 1

SOLA SCRIPTURA: In the Vanity of their Minds, by Fr. John Whiteford

Since my conversion from Evangelical Protestantism to the Orthodox Faith, I have noted a general amazement among many of those who have been raised Orthodox that a Protestant could be converted. This is not because they are uncertain about their own faith, usually they are just amazed that anything could break through a Protestants stubborn insistence on being wrong! What I have come to understand is that most Orthodox people have a confused and limited grasp of what Protestantism is, and where its adherents are coming from. Thus when "cradle Orthodox" believers have their run-ins with Protestants, even though they often use the same words, they do not generally communicate because they do not speak the same theological language — in other words, they have no common theological basis to discuss their differences. Of course when one considers the some twenty thousand plus differing Protestant groups that now exist (with only the one constant trait of each group claiming that it rightly understands the Bible), one must certainly sympathize with those that are a bit confused by them.



Despite all that stands in their way, there definitely is hope for Protestants. Protestants in search of theological sanity, of true worship, and of the ancient Christian Faith are practically beating on our Church doors (of course to those who are not paying attention, this may sound like a strange claim). They are no longer satisfied with the contradictions and the faddishness of contemporary Protestant America, but when we open the door to these inquirers we must be prepared. These people have questions! Many of these inquirers are Protestant ministers, or are among the better informed laymen; they are sincere seekers of Truth, but they have much to unlearn and it will require informed Orthodox Christians to help them work through these issues — Orthodox Christians who know where Protestants are coming from, but even more importantly, who know what they believe themselves!


Ironically (or providentially) this surge in interest in Orthodoxy among Americans from Protestant backgrounds has come even as the opening of the doors of the former Communist-block has brought upon its Orthodox people an unprecedented onslaught from every religious sect and cult. At the spearhead, American Evangelicals and Charismatics have been stumbling over each other — with each of its sects seeking to gain the prestigious boast that they too have established themselves even among the Godless Russians! So we Orthodox are now presented with a double urgency — on the one hand, there is the missionary task of presenting the Faith to Protestants here in the West; but on the other hand we must earnestly combat the spread of heresies among the Orthodox, both here and in traditionally Orthodox lands. In either case, the task at hand is to equip ourselves with sufficient knowledge and understanding of the issues that confront us.


Perhaps the most daunting feature of Protestantism — the feature which has given it a reputation of stubborn resiliency is its numerous differences and contradictions. Like the the mythical Hydra, its many heads only multiply, and though it is a worthy task to seek to understand and confront these heresies individually, this is not the key to their defeat. In order for one to understand the unique beliefs of each individual sect, it requires a knowledge of the history and development of Protestantism in general, a great deal of research into each major stripe of Protestant theology, worship, etc., as well as a lot of contemporary reading in order to understand some of the more important cross-trends that are currently at work (such as liberalism, or emotionalism). Even with all this, one could not hope to keep up with the new groups that spring up almost daily. Yet for all their differences there is one basic underlying assumption that unites the amorphous blob of these thousands of disparate groups into the general category of "Protestant." All Protestant groups (with some minor qualifications) believe that their group has rightly understood the Bible, and though they all disagree as to what the Bible says, they generally do agree on how one is to interpret the Bible — on your own! — apart from Church Tradition. If one can come to understand this belief, why it is wrong, and how one is rightly to approach the Scriptures, then any Protestant of any stripe may be engaged with understanding. Even groups as differing as the Baptists and the Jehovahs Witnesses are really not as different as they outwardly appear once you have understood this essential point — indeed if you ever have an opportunity to see a Baptist and a Jehovahs Witness argue over the Bible, you will notice that in the final analysis they simply quote different Scriptures back and forth at each other. If they are equally matched intellectually, neither will get anywhere in the discussion because they both essentially agree on their approach to the Bible, and because neither questions this underlying common assumption neither can see that their mutually flawed approach to the Scriptures is the problem. Herein lies the heart of this Hydra of heresies — pierce its heart and its many heads at once fall lifelessly to the ground.

Why Scripture Alone?

If we are to understand what Protestants think, we will have to first know why they believe what they believe. In fact if we try to put ourselves in the place of those early reformers, such as Martin Luther, we must certainly have some appreciation for their reasons for championing the Doctrine of Sola Scriptura (or "Scripture alone"). When one considers the corruption in the Roman Church at that time, the degenerate teachings that it promoted, and the distorted understanding of tradition that it used to defend itself -along with the fact that the West was several centuries removed from any significant contact with their former Orthodox heritage — it is difficult to imagine within those limitations how one such as Luther might have responded with significantly better results. How could Luther have appealed to tradition to fight these abuses, when tradition (as all in the Roman West were lead to believe) was personified by the very papacy that was responsible for those abuses. To Luther, it was tradition that had erred, and if he were to reform the Church he would have to do so with the sure undergirding of the Scriptures. However, Luther never really sought to eliminate tradition altogether, and he never used the Scriptures truly "alone," what he really attempted to do was to use Scripture to get rid of those parts of the Roman tradition that were corrupt. Unfortunately his rhetoric far outstripped his own practice, and more radical reformers took the idea of Sola Scriptura to its logical conclusions.

PROBLEMS WITH THE DOCTRINE OF SOLA SCRIPTURA

A. IT IS A DOCTRINE BASED UPON A NUMBER OF FAULTY ASSUMPTIONS

An assumption is something that we take for granted from the outset, usually quite unconsciously. As long as an assumption is a valid one, all is fine and well; but a false assumption inevitably leads to false conclusions. One would hope that even when one has made an unconscious assumption that when his conclusions are proven faulty he would then ask himself where his underlying error lay. Protestants who are willing to honestly assess the current state of the Protestant world, must ask themselves why, if Protestantism and its foundational teaching of Sola Scriptura are of God, has it resulted in over twenty-thousand differing groups that cant agree on basic aspects of what the Bible says, or what it even means to be a Christian? Why (if the Bible is sufficient apart from Holy Tradition) can a Baptist, a Jehovahs Witness, a Charismatic, and a Methodist all claim to believe what the Bible says and yet no two of them agree what it is that the Bible says? Obviously, here is a situation in which Protestants have found themselves that is wrong by any stretch or measure. Unfortunately, most Protestants are willing to blame this sad state of affairs on almost anything — anything except the root problem. The idea of Sola Scriptura is so foundational to Protestantism that to them it is tantamount to denying God to question it, but as our Lord said, "every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a bad tree bringeth forth evil fruit" (Matthew 7:17). If we judge Sola Scriptura by its fruit then we are left with no other conclusion than that this tree needs to be "hewn down, and cast into the fire" (Matthew 7:19).

FALSE ASSUMPTION # 1: The Bible was intended to be the last word on faith, piety, and worship.

a). Does the Scripture teach that it is "all sufficient?"

The most obvious assumption that underlies the doctrine of "Scripture alone" is that the Bible has within it all that is needed for everything that concerns the Christians life — all that would be needed for true faith, practice, piety, and worship. The Scripture that is most usually cited to support this notion is:
...from a child thou hast known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: that the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works (II Timothy 3:15-17).


Those who would use this passage to advocate Sola Scriptura argue that this passage teaches the "all sufficiency" of Scripture — because, "If, indeed, the Holy Scriptures are able to make the pious man perfect... then, indeed to attain completeness and perfection, there is no need of tradition."1 But what can really be said based on this passage?


For starters, we should ask what Paul is talking about when he speaks of the Scriptures that Timothy has known since he was a child. We can be sure that Paul is not referring to the New Testament, because the New Testament had not yet been written when Timothy was a child — in fact it was not nearly finished when Paul wrote this epistle to Timothy, much less collected together into the canon of the New Testament as we now know it. Obviously here, and in most references to "the Scriptures" that we find in the New Testament, Paul is speaking of the Old Testament; so if this passage is going to be used to set the limits on inspired authority, not only will Tradition be excluded but this passage itself and the entire New Testament.


In the second place, if Paul meant to exclude tradition as not also being profitable, then we should wonder why Paul uses non-biblical oral tradition in this very same chapter. The names Jannes and Jambres are not found in the Old Testament, yet in II Timothy 3:8 Paul refers to them as opposing Moses. Paul is drawing upon the oral tradition that the names of the two most prominent Egyptian Magicians in the Exodus account (Ch. 7-8) were "Jannes" and "Jambres."2 And this is by no means the only time that a non-biblical source is used in the New Testament — the best known instance is in the Epistle of St. Jude, which quotes from the Book of Enoch (Jude 14,15 cf. Enoch 1:9).


When the Church officially canonized the books of Scripture, the primary purpose in establishing an authoritative list of books which were to be received as Sacred Scripture was to protect the Church from spurious books which claimed apostolic authorship but were in fact the work of heretics (e.g. the gospel of Thomas). Heretical groups could not base their teachings on Holy Tradition because their teachings originated from outside the Church, so the only way that they could claim any authoritative basis for their heresies was to twist the meaning of the Scriptures and to forge new books in the names of apostles or Old Testament saints. The Church defended itself against heretical teachings by appealing to the apostolic origins of Holy Tradition (proven by Apostolic Succession, i.e. the fact that the bishops and teachers of the Church can historically demonstrate their direct descendence from the Apostles), and by appealing to the universality of the Orthodox Faith (i.e. that the Orthodox faith is that same faith that Orthodox Christians have always accepted throughout its history and throughout the world). The Church defended itself against spurious and heretical books by establishing an authoritative list of sacred books that were received throughout the Church as being divinely inspired and of genuine Old Testament or apostolic origin.


By establishing the canonical list of Sacred Scripture the Church did not intend to imply that all of the Christian Faith and all information necessary for worship and good order in the Church was contained in them.3 One thing that is beyond serious dispute is that by the time the Church settled the Canon of Scripture it was in its faith and worship essentially indistinguishable from the Church of later periods — this is an historical certainty. As far as the structure of Church authority, it was Orthodox bishops together in various councils who settled the question of the Canon — and so it is to this day in the Orthodox Church when any question of doctrine or discipline has to be settled.

b). What was the purpose of the New Testament Writings?

In Protestant biblical studies it is taught (and I think correctly taught in this instance) that when you study the Bible, among many other considerations, you must consider the genre (or literary type) of literature that you are reading in a particular passage, because different genres have different uses. Another consideration is of course the subject and purpose of the book or passage you are dealing with. In the New Testament we have four broad categories of literary genres: gospel, historical narrative (Acts), epistle, and the apocalyptic/prophetic book, Revelation. Gospels were written to testify of Christs life, death, and resurrection. Biblical historical narratives recount the history of God's people and also the lives of significant figures in that history, and show God's providence in the midst of it all. Epistles were written primarily to answer specific problems that arose in various Churches; thus, things that were assumed and understood by all, and not considered problems were not generally touched upon in any detail. Doctrinal issues that were addressed were generally disputed or misunderstood doctrines,4 matters of worship were only dealt with when there were related problems (e.g. I Corinthians 11-14). Apocalyptic writings (such as Revelation) were written to show God's ultimate triumph in history.


Let us first note that none of these literary types present in the New Testament have worship as a primary subject, or were meant to give details about how to worship in Church. In the Old Testament there are detailed (though by no means exhaustive) treatments of the worship of the people of Israel (e.g. Leviticus, Psalms) — in the New Testament there are only meager hints of the worship of the Early Christians. Why is this? Certainly not because they had no order in their services — liturgical historians have established the fact that the early Christians continued to worship in a manner firmly based upon the patterns of Jewish worship which it inherited from the Apostles. 5 However, even the few references in the New Testament that touch upon the worship of the early Church show that, far from being a wild group of free-spirited "Charismatics," the Christians in the New Testament worshiped liturgically as did their fathers before them: they observed hours of prayer (Acts 3:1); they worshiped in the Temple (Acts 2:46, 3:1, 21:26); and they worshiped in Synagogues (Acts 18:4).


We need also to note that none of the types of literature present in the New Testament have as their purpose comprehensive doctrinal instruction — it does not contain a catechism or a systematic theology. If all that we need as Christians is the Bible by itself, why is there not some sort of a comprehensive doctrinal statement? Imagine how easily all the many controversies could have been settled if the Bible clearly answered every doctrinal question. But as convenient as it might otherwise have been, such things are not found among the books of the Bible.


Let no one misunderstand the point that is being made. None of this is meant to belittle the importance of the Holy Scriptures — God forbid! In the Orthodox Church the Scriptures are believed to be fully inspired, inerrant, and authoritative; but the fact is that the Bible does not contain within it teaching on every subject of importance to the Church. As already stated, the New Testament gives little detail about how to worship — but this is certainly no small matter. Furthermore, the same Church that handed down to us the Holy Scriptures, and preserved them, was the very same Church from which we have received our patterns of worship. If we mistrust this Churchs faithfulness in preserving Apostolic worship, then we must also mistrust her fidelity in preserving the Scriptures. 6

c). Is the Bible, in practice, really "all sufficient" for Protestants?

Protestants frequently claim they "just believe the Bible," but a number of questions arise when one examines their actual use of the Bible. For instance, why do Protestants write so many books on doctrine and the Christian life in general, if indeed all that is necessary is the Bible? If the Bible by itself were sufficient for one to understand it, then why dont Protestants simply hand out Bibles? And if it is "all sufficient," why does it not produce consistent results, i.e. why do Protestants not all believe the same? What is the purpose of the many Protestant study Bibles, if all that is needed is the Bible itself? Why do they hand out tracts and other material? Why do they even teach or preach at all —why not just read the Bible to people? The answer is though they usually will not admit it, Protestants instinctively know that the Bible cannot be understood alone. And in fact every Protestant sect has its own body of traditions, though again they generally will not call them what they are. It is not an accident that Jehovahs Witnesses all believe the same things, and Southern Baptists generally believe the same things, but Jehovahs Witnesses and Southern Baptists emphatically do not believe the same things. Jehovahs Witnesses and Southern Baptists do not each individually come up with their own ideas from an independent study of the Bible; rather, those in each group are all taught to believe in a certain way — from a common tradition. So then the question is not really whether we will just believe the Bible or whether we will also use tradition — the real question is which tradition will we use to interpret the Bible? Which tradition can be trusted, the Apostolic Tradition of the Orthodox Church, or the muddled, and modern, traditions of Protestantism that have no roots beyond the advent of the Protestant Reformation.

Read the rest HERE (click me).

 
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1still_waters

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#2
This entire post creates a false strawman of the protestant argument. I'll give you Kudos for being able to knock over your strawman with much skill though.

I'm not going to go point by point here but let's just address this nice lil strawman...

c). Is the Bible, in practice, really "all sufficient" for Protestants?

Protestants frequently claim they "just believe the Bible," but a number of questions arise when one examines their actual use of the Bible. For instance, why do Protestants write so many books on doctrine and the Christian life in general, if indeed all that is necessary is the Bible? If the Bible by itself were sufficient for one to understand it, then why dont Protestants simply hand out Bibles?
Protestants don't claim all sufficient means we don't need teachers to expound the word. That's just a totally bogus assertion.

All sufficient means we're going to rely on the Bible and its proper exposition and interpretation. It means we don't base our beliefs on traditions and rules that aren't even found in the Bible.

When we say all sufficient we mean the foundation of our teaching is only found in Bible, not in man made traditions, teachings and rules NOT found in scripture.

So yes, the Bible is sufficient for us. All of our teaching and doctrine comes from it.
 
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1still_waters

Guest
#3
Let us first note that none of these literary types present in the New Testament have worship as a primary subject, or were meant to give details about how to worship in Church.
Seriously???????

Here's some instructions on how to worship found in the NT....

1 Corinthians 14
26What then shall we say, brothers? When you come together, everyone has a hymn, or a word of instruction, a revelation, a tongue or an interpretation. All of these must be done for the strengthening of the church. 27If anyone speaks in a tongue, two—or at the most three—should speak, one at a time, and someone must interpret. 28If there is no interpreter, the speaker should keep quiet in the church and speak to himself and God. 29Two or three prophets should speak, and the others should weigh carefully what is said. 30And if a revelation comes to someone who is sitting down, the first speaker should stop. 31For you can all prophesy in turn so that everyone may be instructed and encouraged. 32The spirits of prophets are subject to the control of prophets. 33For God is not a God of disorder but of peace.
As in all the congregations of the saints, 34women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the Law says. 35If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church.
36Did the word of God originate with you? Or are you the only people it has reached? 37If anybody thinks he is a prophet or spiritually gifted, let him acknowledge that what I am writing to you is the Lord's command. 38If he ignores this, he himself will be ignored.[i]
39Therefore, my brothers, be eager to prophesy, and do not forbid speaking in tongues. 40But everything should be done in a fitting and orderly way.




1 Timothy 2


1I urge, then, first of all, that requests, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for everyone— 2for kings and all those in authority, that we may live peaceful and quiet lives in all godliness and holiness. 3This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. 5For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, 6who gave himself as a ransom for all men—the testimony given in its proper time. 7And for this purpose I was appointed a herald and an apostle—I am telling the truth, I am not lying—and a teacher of the true faith to the Gentiles. 8I want men everywhere to lift up holy hands in prayer, without anger or disputing.
9I also want women to dress modestly, with decency and propriety, not with braided hair or gold or pearls or expensive clothes, 10but with good deeds, appropriate for women who profess to worship God.
11A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. 12I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent. 13For Adam was formed first, then Eve. 14And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner. 15But women[a] will be saved[b] through childbearing—if they continue in faith, love and holiness with propriety.
 
Jul 17, 2009
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Protestants don't claim all sufficient means we don't need teachers to expound the word. That's just a totally bogus assertion.
I think it stems from Luther saying that the bible was so clearly understood that even a small child could read it and get a clear understanding. I agree that we need things to be expounded upon in order to reach a fuller understanding or even an understanding at all.

All sufficient means we're going to rely on the Bible and its proper exposition and interpretation.
I agree. However, where are two denominations that agree totally on the proper exposition and interpretation? If two denominations were in agreement and their interpretations matched, then there would cease to be two denominations.

It means we don't base our beliefs on traditions and rules that aren't even found in the Bible.
If you read the entire article (if I remember correctly) it offers a few verses where it says to keep the traditions that were handed down by the Apostles. Traditions aren't to be confused with things like customs etc. Neither are Traditions, rules. Traditions are often teachings/interpretations that are in continuity with what was written. All the varying rules, traditions, teachings, customs are also found in protestantism. My point is that not all traditions are bad, because traditions are unavoidable but so long as they do not conflict with the continuity of the scriptures they are probably not harmful to the soul.

The question about tradition is, is there such thing as Holy Tradition?
When we say all sufficient we mean the foundation of our teaching is only found in Bible, not in man made traditions, teachings and rules NOT found in scripture.
I agree. But then if we look at the rapture doctrines for instance. We have three "biblical" choices. They are all in conflict. So, it is logical to say that 2 out of 3 are man-made traditions/teachings. It is even possible that all three are incorrect. We can do the same for laying on of hands, charismatic gifts, baptism, communion/Eucharist, what is appropriate for worship style and what isn't, what tv shows are appropriate and isn't etc. Are these not traditions, teachings, rules?

So yes, the Bible is sufficient for us. All of our teaching and doctrine comes from it.
I agree. It is nearly impossible to find a church or a denominations/Sect that doesn't consider it's teachings, biblical.

I also think the article pointed out that when the NT refers to scripture it was, in its proper context, referring to the Old Testament. However, I agree with you that the NT is, despite the context, still Holy Scripture. It just happens to be that many believe that Tradition informs scripture and vice-versa.

God bless and thank you for your reply.

:)
 
Jan 8, 2009
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Protestants believe in:

2Ti 3:16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
2Ti 3:17 That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.

Of course the bible alone is not really sufficient for anything else. Whether be scientific facts, medicine, numerology, door stops etc.

Of course, the bible has always been intended to be in the hands of the common folk, not reserved for a couple of select individuals. This is evident verse 3:17 above, which speaks of the man of God in general terms, every one in a relationship with God.

The main strength of Sola Scriptura is the concept of individual interpretation, or individual reading.

I hope you don't mind me butting in and giving my own opinion for some of these replys:

I agree. However, where are two denominations that agree totally on the proper exposition and interpretation? If two denominations were in agreement and their interpretations matched, then there would cease to be two denominations.
Not quite true, denominations are not based upon different interpretations of Scripture, but came from different places and different times and for different purposes. The reason why there are so many different denominations today is simply because of ease of travel and multiculturalism.
There are at least 5 denominations I think that have pretty much the same beliefs (where it counts).



If you read the entire article (if I remember correctly) it offers a few verses where it says to keep the traditions that were handed down by the Apostles. Traditions aren't to be confused with things like customs etc. Neither are Traditions, rules. Traditions are often teachings/interpretations that are in continuity with what was written. All the varying rules, traditions, teachings, customs are also found in protestantism. My point is that not all traditions are bad, because traditions are unavoidable but so long as they do not conflict with the continuity of the scriptures they are probably not harmful to the soul.
That's fine, as long as those traditions do not contradict obvious teachings of the apostles. I give one example. The Pope being called Most Holy Father is one of them. No matter which way we look at it, it appears to be blasphemy and does not fit with the model of leadership that Jesus gave to his disciples in the bible, nor the Christian trait of humility which seeks to not parade itself around in fancy clothes but do God's work in humility, the least among you is the greatest etc. We see this in the life of the apostle Paul, Peter, and others, in Scripture. Unfortunately, we do not see this very much within denominations holding to "Holy Tradition". Among a whole range of issues which are the normal sticking points between Protestant and Catholic. If it contradicts the bible, it is not God's tradition of holy tradition, but man's. I suggest that going with scripture, even private interpretation, is much safer than following these sorts of religions blindly and taking every word they say as truth and fact.


I agree. But then if we look at the rapture doctrines for instance. We have three "biblical" choices. They are all in conflict. So, it is logical to say that 2 out of 3 are man-made traditions/teachings. It is even possible that all three are incorrect. We can do the same for laying on of hands, charismatic gifts, baptism, communion/Eucharist, what is appropriate for worship style and what isn't, what tv shows are appropriate and isn't etc. Are these not traditions, teachings, rules?
The difference between these traditions you mentioned, is they are all found in the Scripture. Laying on of hands, charismatic gifts, baptism, communion etc. The problem arises when traditions claimed by Catholic and probably Orthodox too, do not clearly agree with Scripture and in a number of cases, contradict.

The common trait of any cult, sect or such not in line with truth, including JW's, mormons, Catholics etc, is they always downplay the important of private biblical interpretation and reading, and say things like "try this bible, it's a better one", or " you can't fully understand the scripture without this book, or this teaching " etc.
 
Jul 17, 2009
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Of course, the bible has always been intended to be in the hands of the common folk, not reserved for a couple of select individuals. This is evident verse 3:17 above, which speaks of the man of God in general terms, every one in a relationship with God.
I agree. Everyone should and does have access to it. I believe at one time in Roman Catholicism it was forbidden to be read in any other language than Latin etc.

The main strength of Sola Scriptura is the concept of individual interpretation, or individual reading.
I don't know if that's a strength or a weakness. Sure, we can arrive at our own meaning but then if that own private interpretation is false then how do we count that as a benefit? Are Westboro Baptists and JWs and Mormons and Universalists and Unitarians a Sola Scriptura perk?

I hope you don't mind me butting in and giving my own opinion for some of these replys:
Not at all. I often learn a lot when people offer their perspective. There is rarely a time when I don't partially agree with things that are said.

Not quite true, denominations are not based upon different interpretations of Scripture, but came from different places and different times and for different purposes. The reason why there are so many different denominations today is simply because of ease of travel and multiculturalism.
There are at least 5 denominations I think that have pretty much the same beliefs (where it counts).
Well, sure. However, getting a denomination to admit that they are born out of a certain region or individual's (Darby, Wesley, Luther, Calvin etc.) private experiences that are then juxtaposed onto scripture which then colors and offers up an entirely different doctrine from that of the other denoms/individuals/regions is quite difficult.

However, to say that they have pretty much the same beliefs where it counts is difficult to stand up when you look at (and you posted this in a different thread) what was considered Christianity 101 in Hebrews 5-6. To say that Baptists and Methodists have a common interpretation where it counts is to disregard all the sub-denominations of those two major branches. Baptism, charismatic gifts* like laying on of hands (there are several Baptist flavors that totally reject charismatic Baptists) , etc.

It's like saying, we disagree on presence being in the communion and on Baptism and on Church government and worship style and differing teachings on predestination, the depravity of man, and what gifts mean and how to apply and teach on all these things despite the fact that these basic teachings were clearly transmitted as evidenced in Hebrews. But! In regards to the Jesus being Lord, on this we can agree.

Still, I'm not sure which denominations you are referring to. I was a free-Methodist. Though the free-Methodists didn't know the difference between their origins and that of the United Methodists. Only point I'm making is that we still wind up with a divided body, otherwise these 5 would become 1, as Christ intends. No?


That's fine, as long as those traditions do not contradict obvious teachings of the apostles. I give one example. The Pope being called Most Holy Father is one of them. No matter which way we look at it, it appears to be blasphemy and does not fit with the model of leadership that Jesus gave to his disciples in the bible, nor the Christian trait of humility which seeks to not parade itself around in fancy clothes but do God's work in humility, the least among you is the greatest etc. We see this in the life of the apostle Paul, Peter, and others, in Scripture.
I agree. Papal supremacy/infallibility. However, many of the apostles were bishops at various churches and if you do a study of the vestments etc., despite their street attire (in which many were martyred) you'll find that within a generation many of these "fancy" doo rags were worn. Hard to judge someone that wore what they wore in front of St. John, the disciple, and yet they didn't say a word against him. Might be because they too wore what was worn. I don't know much about the vestments that the Pope wears, however.

Unfortunately, we do not see this very much within denominations holding to "Holy Tradition". Among a whole range of issues which are the normal sticking points between Protestant and Catholic. If it contradicts the bible, it is not God's tradition of holy tradition, but man's. I suggest that going with scripture, even private interpretation, is much safer than following these sorts of religions blindly and taking every word they say as truth and fact.
I agree that if it conflicts with Holy Scripture then a red flag ought to pop up. However, I would say that private interpretation is not any different than Papal supremacy and wherein those private interpretations become dogmas, it's not unlike Papal infallibility. We should never follow an individuals teachings blindly. Test everything, as Paul says. Still, it presents quite the pickle when we say that the corporate body of followers is the Church, when that body is presented as divided. We know that Christ's body is not divided.


The difference between these traditions you mentioned, is they are all found in the Scripture. Laying on of hands, charismatic gifts, baptism, communion etc. The problem arises when traditions claimed by Catholic and probably Orthodox too, do not clearly agree with Scripture and in a number of cases, contradict.
I am not aware of any case wherein the Orthodox conflict with the teachings mentioned in Hebrews 5-6. Neither am I aware of the RCCs position on these matters, but that's not to say that those traditions have not changed.

The common trait of any cult, sect or such not in line with truth, including JW's, mormons, Catholics etc, is they always downplay the important of private biblical interpretation and reading, and say things like "try this bible, it's a better one", or " you can't fully understand the scripture without this book, or this teaching " etc.
If the disciple John came to you and said, let me explain to you what to do and also take these writings in order to help you to do them and then a man named Luther showed up later and said, ignore John, believe my teachings, my personal instructions... what can we do?

The common reaction to much of this is, "well, I'll just ignore what was said to me and take the writings for what I am able to make of them.".

To me, it is not unlike the cult of personality or of the self.

I don't know. Soooo many options. Such a narrow road.

Thanks, Mahogany :)

God bless.
 
Jan 8, 2009
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#7
Private interpretation as I understand it is never truly "private" for the Christian, because of the Holy Spirit as teacher (subject to listening/obedience with the right heart)

A few verses:


Num 11:29 And Moses said unto him, Enviest thou for my sake? would God that all the LORD's people were prophets, and that the LORD would put his spirit upon them!


Jer 24:7 And I will give them a heart to know me, that I am the LORD: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God: for they shall return unto me with their whole heart.


Jer 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.


Jer 31:34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.


Joh 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

Luk 12:12 For the Holy Ghost shall teach you in the same hour what ye ought to say.

1Co 12:7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.

1Jn 2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.






 
Jan 31, 2009
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#8
the main thread is way too long you lose most of us, after the first two paragraphs. suffer not the little children to come unto Me. it's not about all the education which can also be called puffed up knowledge, it was the scholars in the Bible days that Jesus had a problem with, the little widow whom we don't even know if she could read or not , was said of Jesus, that she knew more about worship and pleasing God, than all the scholars. what Sola Scriptura has always meant to me was if, we have a misunderstanding amongst us pretaining to the scriptures, then we turn to the scriptures for the truth, not a pope or a pastor or even a famous evanglist.

2pe 1:20Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.2pe 1:21For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.
Not all us believers have written a book on our faith or our doctrines, and some of us don't run out and by the next Christian book published, but we are not hanging on to the next words that come out of a pastor's or pope's mouth either. we know what is right and wrong we know it is wrong to take a life. to lump christians all in one group simply because you know one or two that do this. is just as wrong for us Christians to lump all Catholics as child abusers because alot of pope's have been busted doing this.

if the Word Of God is not good enough For us to find Out who God is and what He wants His pepole to do then we are all in trouble. My vote is scriptures only.


B basic
I instructions
B before
L leaving
E earth

yep the Bible that's the Book for me.
 
J

Jae143

Guest
#9
What did Christians do before there was a Bible?
What were they doing?
How did they know what to do, what not to do, how did they know the Old Testament before it was written down?

To dismiss the teachings of the Apostles to the early Church is hurtful to the Lord. For it was He that chose these men to pass along His teachings. The Holy Spirit came upon them so that they would be able to guide people in the ways of the Lord.

Ignoring the Apostles and their teachings (by word or action) is ignoring the gifts and wisdom that the Lord bestowed upon them.

Sola Scriptura is like picking and choosing what you want - instead of receiving all that God has created for you.

Do we not trust in the Holy Spirit?
 

wattie

Senior Member
Feb 24, 2009
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#10
This is a funny sort of a thread

The reason I see for sola scriptura.. or scripture only.. is because this is how TRUTH is.. Christianity claims to be true.. objective truth.. not subjective.
So the bible gives an objective reference point that is the Word of God. It is the truth.

If there is no real objective standard.. then Christianity is no different than the likes of Hinduism or whatever.

It is true that there are many denominations.. but this doesn't make the Bible at fault.. just men's interpretations of it.

The bible is truth in and of itself.. when you compare scripture with scripture.. all doctrines can be seen clearly.


The other thing is.. trusting the bible.. IS trusting the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit does not work differently than He does in the bible. Find a passage that applies to a situation you are in now.. apply the teaching in it to your life and the Holy Spirit will work in that with ya!


But the reason this is a funny thread: Protestants and Catholics aren't all of the churches in Christianity..there is a line of independent christian churches that has been around before both of them that believed in scripture only..

They have the nick name of ana-baptists... they were not a branch off or brake off from the Catholic church.. like the Protestant churches were.
They helped the Protestant churches at times.. but were never part of them. They were never part of the Catholic church, because they were around before them.. recorded in their own records.

Course, most of their records have been destroyed.. but their teaching is what counts.. and you can find the same teaching amongst alot of these independent churches coming right from New Testament times to today.

So the funny thing about this thread? It's like a dialogue between Catholics and Protestants that is completely ignorant to the fact that there might be a line of churches that is scripture only that can link themselves to NT times.

Anyway, you want sola scriptura? Forget Protestant and Catholic founding Fathers and just look at scripture.. compare scripture with scripture.. and that is the truth about our faith.
 
Jul 17, 2009
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#11
But the reason this is a funny thread: Protestants and Catholics aren't all of the churches in Christianity..there is a line of independent christian churches that has been around before both of them that believed in scripture only..

They have the nick name of ana-baptists... they were not a branch off or brake off from the Catholic church.. like the Protestant churches were.
They helped the Protestant churches at times.. but were never part of them. They were never part of the Catholic church, because they were around before them.. recorded in their own records.

Course, most of their records have been destroyed.. but their teaching is what counts.. and you can find the same teaching amongst alot of these independent churches coming right from New Testament times to today.
Yeah, if you read the article, there's a little shout-out to our ana-baptists...

Even from the very earliest days of the Reformation, Protestants have been forced to deal with the fact that, given the Bible and the reason of the individual alone, people could not agree upon the meaning of many of the most basic questions of doctrine. Within Martin Luthers own life dozens of competing groups had arisen, all claiming to "just believe the Bible," but none agreeing on what the Bible said. Though Luther had courageously stood before the Diet of Worms and said that unless he were persuaded by Scripture, or by plain reason, he would not retract anything that he had been teaching; later, when Anabaptists, who disagreed with the Lutherans on a number of points, simply asked for the same indulgence, the Lutherans butchered them by the thousands — so much for the rhetoric about the "right of an individual to read the Scriptures for himself." Despite the obvious problems that the rapid splintering of Protestantism presented to the doctrine of Sola Scriptura, not willing to concede defeat to the Pope, Protestants instead concluded that the real problem must be that those with whom they disagree, in other words every other sect but their own, must not be reading the Bible correctly. Thus a number of approaches have been set forth as solutions to this problem. Of course there has yet to be the approach that could reverse the endless multiplications of schisms, and yet Protestants still search for the elusive methodological "key" that will solve their problem. Let us examine the most popular approaches that have been tried thus far, each of which are still set forth by one group or another.




In regards to your comment that the ana-baptists were around prior to protestants and even preceded Catholics I am not quite sure what to say to you. Again, there is a shout-out in the article to the folks that believe in the Waldensians 7 (the folks that a few Anabaptists believe they are descendants of).



As to those who would posit that there was some group of true-believing Protestants living in caves somewhere for a thousand years, where is the evidence? The Waldensians 7 that are claimed as forebearers by every sect from the Pentecostals to the Jehovahs Witnesses, did not exist prior to the 12th Century. It is, to say the least, a bit of a stretch to believe that these true-believers suffered courageously under the fierce persecutions of the Romans, and yet would have headed for the hills as soon as Christianity became a legal religion. And yet even this seems possible when compared with the notion that such a group could have survived for a thousand years without leaving a trace of historical evidence to substantiate that it had ever existed.


However, if this is what you believe I would be curious as to how you deal with the likes of St. Polycarp, St. Ignatius, St. Justin Martyr etc.? When do you date the Catholics as first showing up on the map?



Interesting! and thank you for the reply. God bless you :)
 
Jul 17, 2009
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#12
Seriously???????

Here's some instructions on how to worship found in the NT....

1 Corinthians 14
26What then shall we say, brothers? When you come together, everyone has a hymn, or a word of instruction, a revelation, a tongue or an interpretation. All of these must be done for the strengthening of the church. 27If anyone speaks in a tongue, two—or at the most three—should speak, one at a time, and someone must interpret. 28If there is no interpreter, the speaker should keep quiet in the church and speak to himself and God. 29Two or three prophets should speak, and the others should weigh carefully what is said. 30And if a revelation comes to someone who is sitting down, the first speaker should stop. 31For you can all prophesy in turn so that everyone may be instructed and encouraged. 32The spirits of prophets are subject to the control of prophets. 33For God is not a God of disorder but of peace.
As in all the congregations of the saints, 34women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the Law says. 35If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church.
36Did the word of God originate with you? Or are you the only people it has reached? 37If anybody thinks he is a prophet or spiritually gifted, let him acknowledge that what I am writing to you is the Lord's command. 38If he ignores this, he himself will be ignored.[i]
39Therefore, my brothers, be eager to prophesy, and do not forbid speaking in tongues. 40But everything should be done in a fitting and orderly way.




1 Timothy 2


1I urge, then, first of all, that requests, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for everyone— 2for kings and all those in authority, that we may live peaceful and quiet lives in all godliness and holiness. 3This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. 5For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, 6who gave himself as a ransom for all men—the testimony given in its proper time. 7And for this purpose I was appointed a herald and an apostle—I am telling the truth, I am not lying—and a teacher of the true faith to the Gentiles. 8I want men everywhere to lift up holy hands in prayer, without anger or disputing.
9I also want women to dress modestly, with decency and propriety, not with braided hair or gold or pearls or expensive clothes, 10but with good deeds, appropriate for women who profess to worship God.
11A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. 12I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent. 13For Adam was formed first, then Eve. 14And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner. 15But women[a] will be saved[b] through childbearing—if they continue in faith, love and holiness with propriety.

Yeah, if you read that in context of what was being said, the statement referred to literary types.

Doctrinal issues that were addressed were generally disputed or misunderstood doctrines,4 matters of worship were only dealt with when there were related problems (e.g. I Corinthians 11-14). Apocalyptic writings (such as Revelation) were written to show God's ultimate triumph in history.


Let us first note that none of these literary types present in the New Testament have worship as a primary subject, or were meant to give details about how to worship in Church. In the Old Testament there are detailed (though by no means exhaustive) treatments of the worship of the people of Israel (e.g. Leviticus, Psalms) — in the New Testament there are only meager hints of the worship of the Early Christians. Why is this? Certainly not because they had no order in their services — liturgical historians have established the fact that the early Christians continued to worship in a manner firmly based upon the patterns of Jewish worship which it inherited from the Apostles. 5 However, even the few references in the New Testament that touch upon the worship of the early Church show that, far from being a wild group of free-spirited "Charismatics," the Christians in the New Testament worshiped liturgically as did their fathers before them: they observed hours of prayer (Acts 3:1); they worshiped in the Temple (Acts 2:46, 3:1, 21:26); and they worshiped in Synagogues (Acts 18:4).
 
Jul 17, 2009
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#13
Private interpretation as I understand it is never truly "private" for the Christian, because of the Holy Spirit as teacher (subject to listening/obedience with the right heart)

A few verses:


Num 11:29 And Moses said unto him, Enviest thou for my sake? would God that all the LORD's people were prophets, and that the LORD would put his spirit upon them!


Jer 24:7 And I will give them a heart to know me, that I am the LORD: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God: for they shall return unto me with their whole heart.


Jer 31:33 But this shallbe the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.


Jer 31:34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.


Joh 14:26ButtheComforter,whichistheHolyGhost,whomtheFatherwillsendinmyname,heshallteachyouall things,andbring all things to your remembrance,whatsoeverIhavesaiduntoyou.

Luk 12:12 For the Holy Ghost shall teach you in the same hour what ye ought to say.

1Co 12:7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.

1Jn 2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

Yeah, love those verses. I just happen to believe that the Holy Spirit doesn't lead us to believe in conflicting things.

Plus, I see those verses as being said to a corporate body, not just to an individual.
 
Jul 17, 2009
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#14
the main thread is way too long you lose most of us, after the first two paragraphs.
Yeah, sorry about that. But thanks for replying :D

suffer not the little children to come unto Me. it's not about all the education which can also be called puffed up knowledge, it was the scholars in the Bible days that Jesus had a problem with, the little widow whom we don't even know if she could read or not , was said of Jesus, that she knew more about worship and pleasing God, than all the scholars.
Absolutely. Agree.

what Sola Scriptura has always meant to me was if, we have a misunderstanding amongst us pretaining to the scriptures, then we turn to the scriptures for the truth, not a pope or a pastor or even a famous evanglist.
Just to be clear. Who do you turn to then? You ask the Holy Spirit to interpret the scripture for you? Or you turn to those that are also seeking an answer to a question in the bible?

2pe 1:20Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.2pe 1:21For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.
True that.
 
Jan 8, 2009
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#15
Yeah, love those verses. I just happen to believe that the Holy Spirit doesn't lead us to believe in conflicting things.
He can lead individuals to see the same thing from a different angle.



Plus, I see those verses as being said to a corporate body, not just to an individual.
A corporate body is a collection of individuals.
It is spoken to individuals particularly the language of Jer 31:33, 34.
 

wattie

Senior Member
Feb 24, 2009
3,060
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#16
Well to begin with ana-baptists were not all straight as an arrow.. like all christian churches some veered off.. but in amongst these churches you can find ones that believed the bible completely.. were independent.. believed Jesus to be God.. baptism only after salvation.. will re-baptise people from unscriptural churches.. Lord's Supper meant for a local body only...

Churches with these teachings have been around since the NT times right through to today.. it is very hard to trace them completely because most of the records of them have been destroyed by perscutors from Protestant and Catholic churches.. but you can find the same teaching in churches, that weren't part of the reformation.. and were seperate from the Catholic church. They declared non-fellowship with the time when Augustine had the unification of different churches.. and remained independent. Here are some quotes about them:

Sir Isaac Newton said it was "his conviction that the Baptists were the only group that had not symbolized with Rome" (Whiston, Memoirs of, written by himself, 201).



Mosheim : "Before the rise of Luther and Calvin there lay concealed in almost all the countries of Europe persons who adhered tenaciously to the principles of the Dutch Baptists" (Moshem, Institutes of Ecclesiastical History, III, 200).


Alexander Campbell : "From the apostolic age, to the present time, the sentiments of Baptists, and the practice of baptism have had a continued chain of advocates, and public monuments of their existence in every century can be produced" (Macalla and Campbell Debate on Baptism, 378, 379, Buffalo, 1824).


John Clark Ridpath - "I should not readily admit that there was a Baptist church as far back as A. D. 100, though without doubt there were Baptists then, as all Christians were then Baptists" (Jarrel. Baptist Church Perpetuity, 59).


Cardinal Hosius, a member of the Council of Trent, A. D. 1560, "If the truth of religion were judged by the readiness and boldness of which a man of any sect shows in suffering, then the opinion and persuasion of no sect can be truer and surer than that of the Anabaptists since there have been none for these twelve hundred years past, that have been more generally punished or that have more cheerfully and steadfastly undergone, and even offered themselves to the most cruel punishment than these people" (Hosius, Letters Apud Opera, 112-113. Baptist Magazine CVIII, 278. May, 1826).


In the year 1819 Dr. Ypeii, Professor of Theology in Gronigen, and the Rev. J. J. Dermout, Chaplain to the King of the Netherlands:

"We have seen that the Baptists who were formerly called Anabaptists, and in later times Mennonites. were the original Waldenses, and who have lone in the history of the church received the honor of that origin. On this account the Baptists may be considered as the only Christian community which has stood since the days of the apostles, and as a Christian society which has preserved pure the doctrines of the Gospel through the ages" (Ypeij en Dermout, Geschiedenis der Nederlandsrhe Hervormde Kerk. Breda, 1819).

from http://www.pbministries.org/History/Goodwin_&_Frazier/churches_03.htm:

The history of the Lord ‘s church goes back to the first century. Jesus established his church during his personal ministry here on earth. In the New Testament there is abundant proof of the truthfulness of this statement. Some people, however, would deny Jesus the honor of establishing his own church and say it began on the day of Pentecost. The writer submits the following statements showing our Lord established his church during his personal ministry and not on the day of Pentecost.
1. The church had a commission to preach before Pentecost (Matthew 28:19, 20).


2. The church baptized people before Pentecost (John 4:1, 2).


3. The church had the Lord’s Supper before Pentecost (Luke 22:15-20).


4. The church held an election before Pentecost (Acts 1:15-26).


5. There was a church roll before Pentecost (Acts 1:15).


6. The words of Jesus, "Tell it unto the church," were spoken before Pentecost (Matthew 18:17). How could one tell anything to a church that did not exist!


7. There were about 3000 additions to the church on the day of Pentecost (Acts 2:41). A church must be established before it can have additions.


8. Our Lord left his house (Mark 13 :34). By inspiration the Apostle Paul identifies "the house of God" as "The church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth" (1 Tim. 3:15).


9. The first spiritual gift set in the church was the gift of the apostles (1 Cor. 12:28). The church had to be in existence before the apostles could be set in it.


The Scriptures are clear in their testimony that Jesus established his church personally and left it in the world when He went back to the Father.

The Promise
Jesus promised his church, "the gates of hell shall not prevail against it" (Matthew 16:18). The church .Jesus built is promised a continuous history down through the ages. This promise is true no matter what men may say.
 
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