were you saved by a decision YOU made?

BLC · Jul 29, 2009

Every believer that has trusted Christ for salvation knows that it was by the grace of God and they begin to grow in that grace and knowledge of Christ. There is not a believer living that takes credit for their salvation. Salvation is of God and they know that. Acts 16:31 'Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved...

The verse in (Rev 3:21) is 'if any man' hear my voice... not just the churches. Not every man in those churches were saved by the grace of God through faith in Christ.

DinoDillinger · Jul 29, 2009

Lauren said:

This is the thing lauren not everyone feels It. I didn't feel it when I did that along time ago, because I had doubts deep down in my heart, and I still loved my sin. If you are born again you won't love your sin, you will be ashamed of it. Not because the bible says you shouldn't do it but because you hurt you Father who was so loving and merciful to redeem you from that which you were once a slave. To feel His grace and love and never weep over your rebelion to him I would think indicates a hard heart.

anyone who says you do need to repent after salvation I'll point you to Rev. 2:21-22"And I gave her time to repent of her sexual immorality, and she did not repent.Indeed I will cast her into a sickbed, and those who commit adultery with her into great tribulation, unless they repent of there deeds."

It worries me when I hear people say "I accepted Christ as my Savior" When you feel His love and grace you should know that Christ saved YOU, He does it out of His goodness and mercy.

DinoDillinger · Jul 29, 2009

BLC said:

You take it out of context Rev 3:22 "He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches."
He was talking to the believers Rev. 3:19"As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten. Therefore be zealous and repent."
This whole chapter he is talking to the churches not to non-believers. When people say that prayer and aren't saved I think most times it is because they hold on to there sin. Thinking Jesus died for my sin so I believe in Him and my sins won't count against me. He doesn't save people just so he doesn't have to destroy them but to save them from their sin that they seek no longer sin but seek Him that they might have eternal life and be His Son as Jesus was.

BLC · Jul 29, 2009

DinoDillinger said:

That portion of scripture has its own context and it is clear as a bell. When a sinner believes upon the Lord, no matter what they have done in their life, God cleanses them from all sin and saves them by grace and they are a new creature in Christ whether they feel it or not. God does not impute any of their sins to them and God impute His very own righteousness to them. God's righteousness becomes their righteousness. Stop judging people's motives and stop judging God's plan for the unbeliever. Jesus said to take my yoke upon you for it is easy and my burden is light. God's grace does not put a burden on anyone nor does it judge those that trust God by faith. Christ died for us as sinners and all we have to do is look upon Him by faith and believe. God begins a work in them and performs it until they go home to be with the Lord. I think you can understand that.

wattie · Jul 29, 2009

SwordOfFire said:

From James- 'Faith without works is dead'

How abused this verse is! It always gets tied up with eternal salvation.
Well.. what is the context of the verse?

Abraham.. justified by works in that God accepted His act of service as pleasing to Him.. a righteous act. This is not directly related to eternal salvation..

Abraham.. was not justified by works in having his sins cleansed by teh Holy Spirit at salvation.. justified by Christ.. not works.. justified-- 'just as if id' never sinned

Rahab.. justified by works in that God accepted her act of service as pleasing to Him.. a righteous act.. this is not related to eternal salvation.

Rahab was not justified by works in having her sins cleansed by her act.. her sins were cleansed when she beleived in Jesus for eternal life.. by the Holy Spirit regenerating her.. not works involved.

So 'faith without works is dead'.. is about acts of service to God.. showing that you are a child of God by serving Him..

This is the difference between saving faith.. and THE faith..

saving faith.. is being cleansed from our sin through entrusting our salvation with Christ.. who responds by sealing us with the Holy Spirit.. sealed for eternity.

THE faith.. is being empowered by the Holy Spirit to share your faith.. talk to others about God.. attend church.. have a ministry (or be part of a ministry) etc etc..

saving faith and THE faith are not dependent on eachother.

So 'faith without works is dead'.. becomes.. 'seeing an opportunity to serve God and not doing it.. makes your faith dormant.. unused' NOT lost.. not that you never had it..

DinoDillinger · Jul 29, 2009

when I was saved I felt it. I believe it's an act of God that saves. after you were saved did you notice a new sensitivity to sin?

SwordOfFire · Jul 30, 2009

MahogonySnail said:

No recorded cases, that is. Contrived weeping/emotion is not necessary.

Great verse. Admittedly, asking "Jesus into your heart" is terribly confusing and innaccurate I prefer not to use it.
Jesus does not come into a person's heart He is at the right hand of God in heaven.
The Spirit dwells within the heart.

Both sides of the same coin are right in part. We had nothing to do with God's decision to send Jesus and all that involved, where we were born and who told us the Gospel etc. We do however have control over our own choices and decisions. As did our parents/grandparents etc.

We might find, that our situation today is a consequence of past decisions made, even small ones. Life is normally a sum total of all past decisions made, and that includes when, why, and how we accept God's offer of salvation.

Romans 9 speaks in context of God's decision to choose Gentile and Jew, not just Jew. It is all inclusive language, and by no means supports a doctrine of some chosen for hell and others chosen for life.
Vessels prepared is in reference to God's plans and purposes, not individual salvation.

God is fair and no respector of persons. One good example is, if we look at the example of Pharaoh, and read carefully, it says Pharoah hardened his own heart, and then it also says God hardened Pharoahs heart (as punishmnet/judgement I suppose). Confusing I agree. But it is an interplay between God and Pharoah.

John Wesley puts this nicely when he says:

Exo 9:12 Now the Lord hardened Pharaoh's heart - Before he had hardened his own heart, and resisted the grace of God, and now God justly gave him up to his own heart's lusts, to strong delusions, permitting Satan to blind and harden him. Wilful hardness is commonly punished with judicial hardness. Let us dread this as the sorest judgment a man can be under on this side hell.

So if God does harden a persons heart to prevent them salvation, it is judgement and by no means due to any prior decision by God to do that, apart from the person's own subsequent bad choices and will that rejects the grace of God.

This is a good argument. I'm not sure if you are right about Romans 9, but it's definitely a good argument, and worthy of much consideration.

SwordOfFire · Jul 30, 2009

BLC said:

I wasn't attacking her. I don't think she was twisting the scripture to suit her own purposes. But, people often misunderstand, and therefore misquote a verse. I've done it.

As for your exposition of pisteuo, it kind of seems like you are just applying your theology to the word, with your talk of human volition and the like. The word itself is related to pistis which means faith. It could have been translated "put trust in." This is why I like to study the Greek. This certainly seems to be an indication of a human role in salvation. (I'm exploring, as I write this.) Interesting. This supports an interplay between the will of God, and the will of man. This is what makes these discussions good. I like it.

Lauren · Jul 30, 2009

DinoDillinger said:

You have a very good point there Dino.....I sometimes forget that not everyone has such a radical of an experience.

loveschild · Jul 30, 2009

He comes in when you ask. You don't know him till you study him and surrender. God bless you, Love

DinoDillinger · Jul 30, 2009

loveschild said:

How could He come in and you not know him if he is there. Jesus says not all that say Lord Lord will be saved.
Titus 3:4-5 But when the kindness and the love of God our Savior toward man appeared, not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit,
You will receive truth from the Spirit not your mind.
John15:26 "But when the Helper comes, whom I shall send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth who proceeds from the Father, He will testify of Me."

So the Spirit shows you the truth.

Another thing occurs to me from a parable of Jesus. The one that speaks of what people do with their talents and increasing them. The man with 2 talents said "Lord I know you reap where you did not sow". Now was he just talking about gentiles or about people that weren't shown the truth with the Spirit? Would these be the people that declare Christ their Savior but still live like the world because they still had a hardened heart? Someone more enlightened than me please share.

MahogonySnail · Jul 30, 2009

With Romans 9, we have to read the whole chapter and preceding chapter in order to get the context of what Paul is saying. Also check up a few non-calvinist commentaries or resources about it

It is not that we select a few scriptures from it and reckon it teaches a doctrine of individual election, as the Calvinists do.

Teaching a doctrine of individual election is NOT the purpose of Paul writings Romans 9.

For example:

24Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

25As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved. 26And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.

The language is about Jew and Gentile.

verse 14
What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.

Is there unrighteousness with God choosing to save the Gentiles with the Jew?

If we read Romans 9 and other beloved passages of the Calvinist, without the leaven of Calvinist doctrine, we can get the truer clearer meaning.

MahogonySnail · Jul 30, 2009

These are some commentaries I like about Romans 9, the verse about Jacob and Esau:
(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth

. I highlight relevant parts in bold.

People's New Testament
9:11 For the children. The children, yet unborn, were both Isaac's seed according to the flesh; hence, according to the flesh, of the promised seed, and both equally without works, neither having done good nor evil.

That the purpose of God according to election might stand. That it might stand forth that he made the choice of his own will, freely. Of his own will he chose Jacob, yet unborn, to become the head of the chosen race, rather than Esau. Note that this election was not to eternal salvation, but to become the head of a people. As Moses, Samuel, and John the Baptist were raised up for a great work of God, so was Jacob.

These verses and Paul's writings need to be considered in proper context, they are hardly Calvinistic.
Paul was not ever a Calvinist.

CloudStrife · Jul 31, 2009

I said a "prayer" of salvation 4-5 years ago and that saved me I guess? I'm not sure, does it mean I'm saved? What about blasphemy of the Holy Spirit if I did that that would make me un-saved right?

MahogonySnail · Jul 31, 2009

According to Romans 10 , if you confess that Jesus Christ is your Lord, and believe with all your heart that God raised Jesus Christ from the dead, you are justified and right with God. If you do confess these things, the name of Jesus, "Lord Jesus", and live a right life which is your whole confession of Christ, you will be saved. That is regardless of whatever prayer you may have said years ago. As long as you believe in your heart and confess Jesus Christ today, you are saved.

BLC · Aug 1, 2009

MahogonySnail said:

Do you believe that there is an accepted time for salvation (a specific time and place when we believed and asked Jesus Christ to be your Savior). If yes, why do I need to do that today when I accepted my salvation 36 years ago? I confessed Christ today as I did 36 years ago. I am just as saved and justified today as I was then. From that time on, I have grown up in grace and knowledge of Christ. I was a babe in Christ then and now I am an adult son. I have matured over those years. I have not attained everything but Christ is being formed in me so that an invisible God can become visible. My experience is not perfect and when I fail, I access this grace wherein I stand by faith and go on. I do not have to fear or be insecure in my relationship with the Father and the Son. I walk in the light as He is in the light and we have fellowship and also with one another who walk in the light. The prayer of faith I made in the beginning for salvation through Christ is now nearer then when I first believed (Rom 13:11).

1Pt 1:8-13 'Whom having not seen, ye love; in whom, though now ye see him not, yet believing, ye rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory: Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls. Of which salvation the prophets have inquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you: Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow. Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Spirit sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into. Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ'.

phil36 · Aug 1, 2009

Hi, Just a couple of hopefully humbly and none argumentative words.

If God had not chose me, I would not have chose him!

This topic has been argued and debated down through the centuries by far better ordinary men/women and scholar than us.

There are threads on christian chat on this subject already. One thing we should all take note of is, that this should not divide the body of Christ (us) as we will be debating this until Christ comes and then it won't matter in the slightest.

I am a Calvinist, in the sense that I go along with the doctrines of grace etc he expounded. first and foremost, I am a child of God and an heir with Christ as are all those who are justified by Faith.

I believe it is God's initial act that changes your heart (regeneration, Titus 3:5) through the word of the gospel (God's word is powerful, it created the universe!) He softens your hardened heart (Ezek 36) and it is this change that allows you to have faith and call out to God and repent, thus you are justified then sanctified and adopted into the family of God, and in a future time for us we will be glorified (I'm hoping for a long ways yet for me ..lol, God knows best though).

Thats the biblical stance I take, and it is the regeneration part that most people don't understand, I am not sayin you have to believe it that way but when it comes to a reformed position, thats how it works. Albiet I have somewhat given a short take on the subject.

I believe God changed me first, and in Faith I called out to Him for forgiveness etc. so you see it is true that YOU have to ask God and cal out to Him in repentance for salvation, but it is God who is the initiator.

So it is totally true that YOU need to call on the name of the Lord, but because of your condition ( read Romans 1:18-32, cf. ephesians 2) God needs to change something in you to turn to Him.

I hope i have said this in love to all on here an not in a polemic manner, also, it would be nice to see debates on here done in a loving and humble manner, for we are if saved in the body of Christ and should love each other and the aim of the game is to Glorify God through Christ Jesus our Lord and saviour
.

In Love

Phil

P.s please excuse my poor grammer, i try my best lol.

DinoDillinger · Aug 1, 2009

I didn't intend with this thread to start a debate with people of faith. Maybe I did it in the flesh, if I did I apologize. I didn't intend to scare people with faith but people who were in the same condition as I was. I did say the prayer and I was saved. I couldn't accept the truth that is in the Bible until God took the blinders off. I spoke to someone a few weeks ago that went to church all his life and didn't know God until he was 42. The Bible says not all those that say Lord Lord will be Justified. God said, " I know you not, you worker of lawlessness. Depart." (Paraphrasing) That part scared me who was trusting a prayer for salvation.

phil36 · Aug 1, 2009

Well said dino, and you are totally correct, just saying a prayer does not make you a christian, it has been seen hundreds of times at huge highly emotional meetings were people come to the front ad confess, and then to find that most were only false confessions.

However the embodiement of the prayer is correct, but as you have correctly stated it was the initial act of God who made you realize you needed to say it.

God Bless

Phil

MahogonySnail · Aug 1, 2009

amen exactly right. There is a specific time and place when we believed, but often we are not aware of it. It might even occur when we sleeping in a dream. The Spirit goes wherever He wishes, so it is with those who are born from above. I once was blind but now I see. That prayer you pray confessing Christ, is not to make the faith miraculously appear, but is the outward working of the faith you should already have. That's why forced decisions and forced altar calls and prayers do not work, producing "false" or "fake" converts. The justification to salvation rests upon the faith in the heart, not the first moment of prayer.

were you saved by a decision YOU made?

Banned

Senior Member

Senior Member

Banned

Senior Member

Senior Member

SwordOfFire

Guest

SwordOfFire

Guest

Lauren

Guest

Banned

Senior Member

Banned

Banned

Banned

Banned

Banned

Senior Member

Senior Member

Senior Member

Banned