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I know that I am in for it now. There will be those that are going to accuse me of being argumentative and unedifying. Is the Lord's salvation conditioned on perseverance? If salvation only comes at the end through perseverance, then what is the necessity to believe by faith in the beginning? That would make the faith of Jesus Christ more important in the end then the beginning. Is he the finisher of our faith only, is He not also the author of it (Heb 12:2)? To take all professing Christians and say that only a few are truly saved because they have found the narrow way through perseverance is to do away with the judgment seat of Christ for the believer. If only those that have persevered enter the kingdom of God there would only be rewards for those persevering saints. But we know that there are those whose works will be burned up and will suffer the loss of rewards but are scarcely saved (1Cor 3:15). Are those that suffer loss considered to have persevered as those that have received rewards because their works remained? How can you suffer loss and still be considered to have persevered? We persevere so that we don't suffer loss (not pertaining to salvation) but of being rewarded for those things we have wrought in God
2John 1:8 ' Look to yourselves, that we lose not those things which we have wrought, but that we receive a full reward'.
Jesus Christ is the narrow way and few their be that believe and find Him to be that. Broad is the way (any belief system outside of Christ) that lead many into destruction. There is plenty more that could be said on this. The thing that is absent from all of this is the grace of God. We persevere by grace and through faith. We are to walk in the Lord as we have received Him, by grace and through faith (Eph 2:8,9. Col 2:8). Do all believers persevere this way, No! Many struggle with sin, the flesh and the old sin nature and things that move them away from doing the will of God. When it happens to us, we need to be stirred up through the word of God and through grace. But they will not lose their salvation because that was given to them by grace and through faith when they believed.
Jesus Christ was the most persecuted man that ever walked the earth and He came by grace and truth (Jn 1:14). He grew in wisdom and grace His entire life (Lk 2:40). If Christ comes back in our lifetime, the message of grace and those that live and grow by the grace of God will be persecuted not just by the world but more severely by the religious crowd that does not have and grow in grace. If they profess a salvation by grace but claim and maintain salvation without grace, their salvation is not of God. If there is a definition that defines the 'few crowd' it will be those that have been justified by grace, that stand in grace, that receive grace when they fail, that minister grace and realize that salvation is all grace plus nothing.
Rom 11:5,6 'Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace. And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work'.
2John 1:8 ' Look to yourselves, that we lose not those things which we have wrought, but that we receive a full reward'.
Jesus Christ is the narrow way and few their be that believe and find Him to be that. Broad is the way (any belief system outside of Christ) that lead many into destruction. There is plenty more that could be said on this. The thing that is absent from all of this is the grace of God. We persevere by grace and through faith. We are to walk in the Lord as we have received Him, by grace and through faith (Eph 2:8,9. Col 2:8). Do all believers persevere this way, No! Many struggle with sin, the flesh and the old sin nature and things that move them away from doing the will of God. When it happens to us, we need to be stirred up through the word of God and through grace. But they will not lose their salvation because that was given to them by grace and through faith when they believed.
Jesus Christ was the most persecuted man that ever walked the earth and He came by grace and truth (Jn 1:14). He grew in wisdom and grace His entire life (Lk 2:40). If Christ comes back in our lifetime, the message of grace and those that live and grow by the grace of God will be persecuted not just by the world but more severely by the religious crowd that does not have and grow in grace. If they profess a salvation by grace but claim and maintain salvation without grace, their salvation is not of God. If there is a definition that defines the 'few crowd' it will be those that have been justified by grace, that stand in grace, that receive grace when they fail, that minister grace and realize that salvation is all grace plus nothing.
Rom 11:5,6 'Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace. And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work'.
S
You completely misunderstand. Everything. Salvation is completely by grace, yes. Completely. But evidence of that salvation is fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Also, he that endures to the end shall be saved. Your theology is not biblical at all. You are preaching half the message, and even that half is wrong.
S
John 1:1 emphasizes the deity of Christ. Jesus is the second person of the Trinity. My point here, though, is not to argue the trinity, but to show that Jesus is, in fact, God.
I don't know if you have ever studied biblical Greek or not, but I'll give you a short lesson( I am still a beginner, but this is beginner level.)
Word order in English is typically subject, verb, object. For example: The boy kicked the ball. However, in some other languages, such as Latin, and Koine Greek, the word order can be mixed up to emphasize a certain thing in the sentence. For example: The ball, the boy kicked. The emphasis in the sentence would be on the ball. It would kind of by synonymous with someone really stressing the importance of the ball. Word order plays an important part in emphasis. This is very important when you look at the Greek of John 1:1.
I'll transliterate this, as best I can, because most people can't read Greek.
John 1:1 En arkhay, ain ho Logos. Kai ho Logos ain pros ton Theon, kai Theos ain ho Logos.
Translated literally, this reads:
In beginning was the Word. And the Word was with God, and God was the Word.
The word order here emphasizes that the Word, which refers to Jesus, as is seen in verse 14, is actually God. What is saying is that everything that God is, the Word is. The Word, Jesus, is God. Yes he came to lead the way to God, as Himself.
Read this unpublished essay on the Trinity by Jonathan Edwards.
http://www.ccel.org/ccel/edwards/trinity/files/trinity.html
I don't know if you have ever studied biblical Greek or not, but I'll give you a short lesson( I am still a beginner, but this is beginner level.)
Word order in English is typically subject, verb, object. For example: The boy kicked the ball. However, in some other languages, such as Latin, and Koine Greek, the word order can be mixed up to emphasize a certain thing in the sentence. For example: The ball, the boy kicked. The emphasis in the sentence would be on the ball. It would kind of by synonymous with someone really stressing the importance of the ball. Word order plays an important part in emphasis. This is very important when you look at the Greek of John 1:1.
I'll transliterate this, as best I can, because most people can't read Greek.
John 1:1 En arkhay, ain ho Logos. Kai ho Logos ain pros ton Theon, kai Theos ain ho Logos.
Translated literally, this reads:
In beginning was the Word. And the Word was with God, and God was the Word.
The word order here emphasizes that the Word, which refers to Jesus, as is seen in verse 14, is actually God. What is saying is that everything that God is, the Word is. The Word, Jesus, is God. Yes he came to lead the way to God, as Himself.
Read this unpublished essay on the Trinity by Jonathan Edwards.
http://www.ccel.org/ccel/edwards/trinity/files/trinity.html
'Faith without works is dead'
The context of this verse in James is about acts of service to God.. and not eternal salvation! For the one millionth time!
'He who endures to the end will be saved'
The context of this verse is about deliverance from trials and tribulation.. not about eternal salvation!
A saved person WILL do good works ?
NO
A saved person MAY do good works
fruit from salvation.. is hard to tell.. it may be obvious for some.. who get saved and then quickly join a church.. start reading their bible etc etc.. but for someone who is saved and then doesn't go to church.. doesn't read their bible etc etc... then the fruit will not be obvious!!
Never judge a saved person's salvation by their works .. only by their heart.
The context of this verse in James is about acts of service to God.. and not eternal salvation! For the one millionth time!
'He who endures to the end will be saved'
The context of this verse is about deliverance from trials and tribulation.. not about eternal salvation!
A saved person WILL do good works ?
NO
A saved person MAY do good works
fruit from salvation.. is hard to tell.. it may be obvious for some.. who get saved and then quickly join a church.. start reading their bible etc etc.. but for someone who is saved and then doesn't go to church.. doesn't read their bible etc etc... then the fruit will not be obvious!!
Never judge a saved person's salvation by their works .. only by their heart.
L
Wow, talk about trusting in yourself for your salvation. That's what I saw when I watched the video.
Never has it been more clear to me how misguided that idea is, that we somehow have the capacity or capability outside of God to "endure to the end".
Thank you SOF for that video, although for probably different reasons than you had intended.
Never has it been more clear to me how misguided that idea is, that we somehow have the capacity or capability outside of God to "endure to the end".
Thank you SOF for that video, although for probably different reasons than you had intended.
S
If that's what you think, then you misunderstood. It isn't about a capacity within yourself, it's about assurance. The perseverance comes from God, as does the fruit. Jesus said:
Joh 15:5 I am the vine; you are the branches. Whoever abides in me and I in him, he it is that bears much fruit, for apart from me you can do nothing.
The point is not that you can bear fruit on your own, but that without fruit you can't be certain that your profession of faith is valid. If you are actually in him, you WILL bear fruit, contrary to what some on here are teaching. Read 1 John. That book wasn't written to show how you become Christian, or stay Christian; rather, it was written to show what you will look like if you really are Christian. The fruit is the result, not the means.
If we say we have fellowship with Him and walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth. Also, he that sins is of the devil. 1 John. Taken in context, it doesn't mean that anyone who commits a sin is not saved; rather, it means that anyone who lives in sin as a style of life has no assurance of salvation.
S
"If you tell a lie loud enough and long enough, the people will believe it." --Adolf Hitler
I'm not saying that you are lying; I know you really believe what you are saying, but I'm not moved by how many times you repeat something.
By their heart? Check this out.
Luk 6:43 "For no good tree bears bad fruit, nor again does a bad tree bear good fruit,
Luk 6:44 for each tree is known by its own fruit. For figs are not gathered from thornbushes, nor are grapes picked from a bramble bush.
Luk 6:45 The good person out of the good treasure of his heart produces good, and the evil person out of his evil treasure produces evil, for out of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaks.
Joh 7:38 Whoever believes in me, as the Scripture has said, 'Out of his heart will flow rivers of living water.'"
I'm not putting the cart before the horse; I fully understand that salvation is a supernatural work of God. But, if you have truly been transformed into a "good tree", you will bear fruit worthy of repentance. It has nothing to do with human striving, and everything to do with the evidence that God has truly performed a work in you.
I'm not saying that you are lying; I know you really believe what you are saying, but I'm not moved by how many times you repeat something.
By their heart? Check this out.
Luk 6:43 "For no good tree bears bad fruit, nor again does a bad tree bear good fruit,
Luk 6:44 for each tree is known by its own fruit. For figs are not gathered from thornbushes, nor are grapes picked from a bramble bush.
Luk 6:45 The good person out of the good treasure of his heart produces good, and the evil person out of his evil treasure produces evil, for out of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaks.
Joh 7:38 Whoever believes in me, as the Scripture has said, 'Out of his heart will flow rivers of living water.'"
I'm not putting the cart before the horse; I fully understand that salvation is a supernatural work of God. But, if you have truly been transformed into a "good tree", you will bear fruit worthy of repentance. It has nothing to do with human striving, and everything to do with the evidence that God has truly performed a work in you.
Like 18:10-14 'Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican. The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican. I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess. And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner. I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted'.
Jesus Christ is the one speaking here. This man was justified by faith, without any works whatsoever. With his head bowed he prayed that God would be merciful to him a sinner. He was given mercy and regenerated right on the spot and totally justified by grace through that prayer of faith without one single bit of proof. He went home saved, forgiven, justified and cleansed from all sin. You know what, he didn't repent of his sin, he asked God to be merciful to him a sinner. This sinner believed in God's mercy and was justified, just like that, instantly. He did not have to prove a thing because he trusted God for mercy. He couldn't save himself or justify himself as a sinner, so he trusted God's mercy to do that.
Titus 3:5 'Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost'.
Jesus Christ is the one speaking here. This man was justified by faith, without any works whatsoever. With his head bowed he prayed that God would be merciful to him a sinner. He was given mercy and regenerated right on the spot and totally justified by grace through that prayer of faith without one single bit of proof. He went home saved, forgiven, justified and cleansed from all sin. You know what, he didn't repent of his sin, he asked God to be merciful to him a sinner. This sinner believed in God's mercy and was justified, just like that, instantly. He did not have to prove a thing because he trusted God for mercy. He couldn't save himself or justify himself as a sinner, so he trusted God's mercy to do that.
Titus 3:5 'Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost'.
L
Watchmen, can you give me your succinct definition of "endure"....ie. what exactly must we do until the very end?
v. en·dured, en·dur·ing, en·dures
v.tr. 1. To carry on through, despite hardships; undergo:
2. To bear with tolerance: "
See Synonyms at bear1.
v.intr. 1. To continue in existence; last: .
2. To suffer patiently without yielding.
v. en·dured, en·dur·ing, en·dures
v.tr. 1. To carry on through, despite hardships; undergo:
2. To bear with tolerance: "
See Synonyms at bear1.
v.intr. 1. To continue in existence; last: .
2. To suffer patiently without yielding.
I will repeat again..
the verse- 'he who endures to the end will be saved'
look at the context of this verse-- the surrounding passages..
(Mat 10:21) And the brother shall deliver up the brother to death, and the father the child: and the children shall rise up against their parents, and cause them to be put to death.
(Mat 10:22) And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.
(Mat 10:23) But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come.
(Mat 10:24) The disciple is not above his master, nor the servant above his lord.
This verse is about being delivered from trouble.. from persecution! Eternal life.. everlasting life is not in the context!
He who endures to the end will be saved-- is he who bears with this troubling time will come out the end of this troubling time all right!
the verse- 'he who endures to the end will be saved'
look at the context of this verse-- the surrounding passages..
(Mat 10:21) And the brother shall deliver up the brother to death, and the father the child: and the children shall rise up against their parents, and cause them to be put to death.
(Mat 10:22) And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.
(Mat 10:23) But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come.
(Mat 10:24) The disciple is not above his master, nor the servant above his lord.
This verse is about being delivered from trouble.. from persecution! Eternal life.. everlasting life is not in the context!
He who endures to the end will be saved-- is he who bears with this troubling time will come out the end of this troubling time all right!
S
I'm going to try to say this as plainly as possible. Salvation is not by works. Works has nothing to do with the supernatural regeneration of a man's heart by the Holy Spirit. It is ALL grace, and not based on the merit or worth of the recipient of that grace.
That regeneration, being born again, changes who a man is, at his core. This new man's life will be different from his old life. He will grow in holiness and a desire for God and the things that God desires. It won't be all uphill; at times it will be one step forward and two steps backward. But, there will be a progressive sanctification in the man's life. According to scripture, the absence of this is evidence that his profession of faith lacks the supernatural work of God; he is not truly born again.
This has absolutely nothing to do with a man creating something that is acceptable to God. The works are not how you get to know God, please God, or stay in His favor. They are a byproduct of grace. Without them, you can't be certain that your profession of faith is valid. That is the point. It is NOT a works salvation. If you think that, you are "putting the cart before the horse." But if you think that sinners will inherit the kingdom of God because they accept something to be true, you are preaching a false gospel.
Faith is more than accepting something to be true. That is what James was differentiating when he said:
Jas 2:18 But someone will say, "You have faith and I have works." Show me your faith apart from your works, and I will show you my faith by my works.
Jas 2:19 You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believe--and shudder!
Jas 2:20 Do you want to be shown, you foolish person, that faith apart from works is useless?
Biblical faith is when you place all of your trust and life in Jesus Christ. Grace is the end of your life in exchange for His life. Grace is not a sloppy, sentimentality that allows a person to continue in sin. Grace changes a person's inner most being, causing that person to bring forth Godly fruit.
Tit 2:11 For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people,
Tit 2:12 training us to renounce ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright, and godly lives in the present age,
Tit 2:13 waiting for our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ,
Tit 2:14 who gave himself for us to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people for his own possession who are zealous for good works.
Tit 2:15 Declare these things; exhort and rebuke with all authority. Let no one disregard you.
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