Page 28 of 29 FirstFirst ... 1826272829 LastLast
Results 541 to 560 of 580
Like Tree515Likes

Bible Discussion Forum

Ask (or answer) Bible questions here. Join or start a Bible discussion now!

Thread: word of faith movement

  1. #541
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    January 6th, 2018
    Posts
    774
    Rep Power
    24

    Default Re: word of faith movement

    Quote Originally Posted by valleyofdecision View Post
    Actually the WOF doctrine is closer to the church of Laodicea. Yes, I have read 1 and 2 Corinthians.
    1 Cor gets into much more detail of the same errors practiced today by Charismatics and WOF that Revelations does about Laodicea.
    Angela53510 likes this.

  2. #542
    Senior Member Angela53510's Avatar
    Join Date
    January 24th, 2011
    Age
    64
    Posts
    9,439
    Blog Entries
    2
    Rep Power
    331

    Default Re: word of faith movement

    Quote Originally Posted by know1 View Post
    I think we should get some facts straight, which you sir, continue to ignore.
    You ignored my post showing Jesus used faith to do EVERY miracle, which you demanded I answer because you were so confident you had something against my understanding of faith, of which I did, with quotes from scripture, of which you claim I twisted.
    And BECAUSE you ignored THAT post, I wrote another post to goad you into responding, only for you to ignore the faith post and carry on about the silence post, as though that was my whole argument.
    Have you ever played dodge ball when you were little?
    Well, you're doing the grownup version of that game now.
    What happened to your side of the argument showing Jesus doing miracles without faith?
    Show me scripture please.
    The thread is about faith, so let's discuss the subject with scripture.
    And for the record, you can't pervert scripture if you are copying and pasting straight from the bible.
    That does not constitute perverting of scripture, nor does it suffice as a legitimate argument.
    Jesus killing the fig tree was an act of faith because Jesus said,

    Mat 21:21 Jesus answered and said unto them, Verily I say unto you, If ye have faith, and doubt not, ye shall not only do this which is done to the fig tree, but also if ye shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; it shall be done.

    If Jesus said it takes faith for us to do the same to the fig tree as He had done, why would it be any different for Him?
    His faith killed the tree, and He was saying we could do the same with the same kind of faith, for there is only one kind of faith.
    You can do one of a few things.
    You can either show me another verse proving Jesus didn't use faith to do miracles, or you could try to prove me wrong on this one, or you could just admit you don't know what faith is or how it works.

    I know Devo already dealt with this, but I thought I would add my objections to this.

    First, Jesus was God. He did not NEED faith in God, to do miracles, because he WAS God. As for you and your WoF friends, you are NOT god. Any kind of god, ever. For example, if you were a god, you would be immortal. When the Bible clearly says we are mortal.

    20 Terrify them, Lord!
    Let the nations know they are mere mortals! (Selah)” Psalm 9:20

    “But Peter helped him up, saying, “Stand up. I too am a mere mortal.” Acts 10:26


    So many other verses that use “mortal” clearly, or point to our fragility as humans, because we are NOT gods!

    So, that is the first place you have messed up. Jesus was God, we are not!

    Second, in your verse above, you seem to have forgotten who Jesus is talking to, when he says “you.” Even your KJV is very clear, using YE to mean 2nd person plural - You all

    ἀποκριθεὶς δὲ ὁ Ἰησοῦς εἶπεν αὐτοῖς· Ἀμὴν λέγω ὑμῖν, ἐὰν ἔχητε πίστιν καὶ μὴ διακριθῆτε, οὐ μόνον τὸ τῆς συκῆς ποιήσετε, ἀλλὰ κἂν τῷ ὄρει τούτῳ εἴπητε· Ἄρθητι καὶ βλήθητι εἰς τὴν θάλασσαν, γενήσεται·” Matt 21:21 Greek.

    ὑμῖν - you, 2nd person plural dative
    ποιήσετε - 2nd person plural Future Indicative Active “you will do.”


    So, is Jesus saying “I” need faith to do it? No, he is not talking first person singular. And as already noted, no disciple curses a fig tree and it died, or cast a mountain into the sea. So, clearly, Jesus had an object lesson of killing the fig tree, and then showing them how it was so important for them to have faith. Why did he say this at this time? Because it was the week of the Passover, Jesus just had his triumphal entrance into Jerusalem in chapter 21, and he was on his way to die on the cross by Friday. He wanted the disciples to have faith in him, not faith in faith, or faith to do miracles, but rather faith to believe he would rise again.

    And did the disciples have faith? Well, no, they didn’t believe Jesus was who he said he was. And they didn’t do miracles or signs and wonders that are recorded in any of the gospels or Acts, until the day of Pentecost, the birth of the church.

    So - Jesus is God, you are not! He was talking to the disciples to have faith about what was to come, not saying he had faith, so they should too.

    Just poor exegetics - every post you make!
    "And He has said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for power is perfected in weakness.” Most gladly, therefore, I will rather boast about my weaknesses, so that the power of Christ may dwell in me." 2 Cor. 12:9 NASB

  3. #543
    Senior Member stonesoffire's Avatar
    Join Date
    November 24th, 2013
    Age
    71
    Posts
    7,554
    Blog Entries
    2
    Rep Power
    217

    Default Re: word of faith movement

    Quote Originally Posted by Angela53510 View Post
    I know Devo already dealt with this, but I thought I would add my objections to this.

    First, Jesus was God. He did not NEED faith in God, to do miracles, because he WAS God. As for you and your WoF friends, you are NOT god. Any kind of god, ever. For example, if you were a god, you would be immortal. When the Bible clearly says we are mortal.

    20 Terrify them, Lord!
    Let the nations know they are mere mortals! (Selah)” Psalm 9:20

    “But Peter helped him up, saying, “Stand up. I too am a mere mortal.” Acts 10:26


    So many other verses that use “mortal” clearly, or point to our fragility as humans, because we are NOT gods!

    So, that is the first place you have messed up. Jesus was God, we are not!

    Second, in your verse above, you seem to have forgotten who Jesus is talking to, when he says “you.” Even your KJV is very clear, using YE to mean 2nd person plural - You all

    ἀποκριθεὶς δὲ ὁ Ἰησοῦς εἶπεν αὐτοῖς· Ἀμὴν λέγω ὑμῖν, ἐὰν ἔχητε πίστιν καὶ μὴ διακριθῆτε, οὐ μόνον τὸ τῆς συκῆς ποιήσετε, ἀλλὰ κἂν τῷ ὄρει τούτῳ εἴπητε· Ἄρθητι καὶ βλήθητι εἰς τὴν θάλασσαν, γενήσεται·” Matt 21:21 Greek.

    ὑμῖν - you, 2nd person plural dative
    ποιήσετε - 2nd person plural Future Indicative Active “you will do.”


    So, is Jesus saying “I” need faith to do it? No, he is not talking first person singular. And as already noted, no disciple curses a fig tree and it died, or cast a mountain into the sea. So, clearly, Jesus had an object lesson of killing the fig tree, and then showing them how it was so important for them to have faith. Why did he say this at this time? Because it was the week of the Passover, Jesus just had his triumphal entrance into Jerusalem in chapter 21, and he was on his way to die on the cross by Friday. He wanted the disciples to have faith in him, not faith in faith, or faith to do miracles, but rather faith to believe he would rise again.

    And did the disciples have faith? Well, no, they didn’t believe Jesus was who he said he was. And they didn’t do miracles or signs and wonders that are recorded in any of the gospels or Acts, until the day of Pentecost, the birth of the church.

    So - Jesus is God, you are not! He was talking to the disciples to have faith about what was to come, not saying he had faith, so they should too.

    Just poor exegetics - every post you make!
    There is such a thing as revelation truth. That which Holy Spirit teaches. Usually with symbols. There are several trees important to Israel. The fig tree is the third tree spoken of in the OT. So Adam and Eve covered themselves with fig leaves. Represents works of men that believe they must do something to come to Father.

    Am sure you can see where im going concerning Jesus cursing this tree.

    Now, Jesus only did and said what He heard and saw from Father. He was in union with Him. So in this He had to put faith out in Father that He would do what He's trusting Him to do. Without Jesus acting as who He is. God.

    He did all these things in order to show men the pattern of righteousness found only in being one with Him.

    Anything we do, we do by the faith of Jesus.
    1Th 3:12 May the Lord greatly increase your love for each other and for all people, just as we love you.


    1Th 3:13 Then your hearts will be strong, blameless, and holy in the presence of God, who is our Father, when our Lord Jesus appears with all his saints.





    Ephesians 6:10 Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord and in the power of his might.

  4. #544
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    January 6th, 2018
    Posts
    774
    Rep Power
    24

    Default Re: word of faith movement

    Quote Originally Posted by stonesoffire View Post
    There is such a thing as revelation truth. That which Holy Spirit teaches. Usually with symbols. There are several trees important to Israel. The fig tree is the third tree spoken of in the OT. So Adam and Eve covered themselves with fig leaves. Represents works of men that believe they must do something to come to Father.

    Am sure you can see where im going concerning Jesus cursing this tree.

    Now, Jesus only did and said what He heard and saw from Father. He was in union with Him. So in this He had to put faith out in Father that He would do what He's trusting Him to do. Without Jesus acting as who He is. God.

    He did all these things in order to show men the pattern of righteousness found only in being one with Him.

    Anything we do, we do by the faith of Jesus.
    This question is beside the point, but why do you NAR or WOF leave out the "THE" articles with THE Father and THE Holy Spirit? I have seen and heard this omission in several of your movement's books, sermons, and blogs.
    Angela53510 and Rosemaryx like this.

  5. #545
    Senior Member stonesoffire's Avatar
    Join Date
    November 24th, 2013
    Age
    71
    Posts
    7,554
    Blog Entries
    2
    Rep Power
    217

    Default Re: word of faith movement

    Quote Originally Posted by DevotiontoBible View Post
    This question is beside the point, but why do you NAR or WOF leave out the "THE" articles with THE Father and THE Holy Spirit? I have seen and heard this omission in several of your movement's books, sermons, and blogs.
    Am not NAR, nor word of faith. Faith in the Word. So can't answer your question. Those I read from are not NAR either.

    What do you mean the question is beside the point?

    By the way, I do my own studies, and post out of them.
    1Th 3:12 May the Lord greatly increase your love for each other and for all people, just as we love you.


    1Th 3:13 Then your hearts will be strong, blameless, and holy in the presence of God, who is our Father, when our Lord Jesus appears with all his saints.





    Ephesians 6:10 Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord and in the power of his might.

  6. #546
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    January 6th, 2018
    Posts
    774
    Rep Power
    24

    Default Re: word of faith movement

    Quote Originally Posted by stonesoffire View Post
    Am not NAR, nor word of faith. Faith in the Word. So can't answer your question. Those I read from are not NAR either.

    What do you mean the question is beside the point?

    By the way, I do my own studies, and post out of them.
    Are you not aware that you are parroting their omission of thd article?
    Angela53510 likes this.

  7. #547
    Senior Member stonesoffire's Avatar
    Join Date
    November 24th, 2013
    Age
    71
    Posts
    7,554
    Blog Entries
    2
    Rep Power
    217

    Default Re: word of faith movement

    Quote Originally Posted by DevotiontoBible View Post
    Are you not aware that you are parroting their omission of thd article?
    I have no idea what you are talking about.
    1Th 3:12 May the Lord greatly increase your love for each other and for all people, just as we love you.


    1Th 3:13 Then your hearts will be strong, blameless, and holy in the presence of God, who is our Father, when our Lord Jesus appears with all his saints.





    Ephesians 6:10 Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord and in the power of his might.

  8. #548
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    August 27th, 2012
    Age
    55
    Posts
    2,249
    Rep Power
    21

    Default Re: word of faith movement

    Quote Originally Posted by DevotiontoBible View Post
    What you have to discuss are all fallacious. You WOF people think you are some kind of little god rulers who have authority to be rich and work miracles. You are people of such "faith and power". Read this, it is as if Paul were addressing a WOF church:

    "You think you already have everything you need. You think you are already rich. You have begun to reign in God’s kingdom without us! I wish you really were reigning already, for then we would be reigning with you. Instead, I sometimes think God has put us apostles on display, like prisoners of war at the end of a victor’s parade, condemned to die. We have become a spectacle to the entire world—to people and angels alike. Our dedication to Christ makes us look like fools, but you claim to be so wise in Christ! We are weak, but you are so powerful! You are honored, but we are ridiculed. Even now we go hungry and thirsty, and we don’t have enough clothes to keep warm. We are often beaten and have no home. We work wearily with our own hands to earn our living. We bless those who curse us. We are patient with those who abuse us. We appeal gently when evil things are said about us. Yet we are treated like the world’s garbage, like everybody’s trash—right up to the present moment."
    1 Corinthians 4:8*-‬13 NLT
    https://bible.com/bible/116/1co.4.8-13.NLT
    The KJV is a literal translation, and it reads a little differently than the NLT.

    1Co 4:8 Now ye are full, now ye are rich, ye have reigned as kings without us: and I would to God ye did reign, that we also might reign with you.
    1Co 4:9 For I think that God hath set forth us the apostles last, as it were appointed to death: for we are made a spectacle unto the world, and to angels, and to men.
    1Co 4:10 We are fools for Christ's sake, but ye are wise in Christ; we are weak, but ye are strong; ye are honourable, but we are despised.
    1Co 4:11 Even unto this present hour we both hunger, and thirst, and are naked, and are buffeted, and have no certain dwellingplace;
    1Co 4:12 And labour, working with our own hands: being reviled, we bless; being persecuted, we suffer it:
    1Co 4:13 Being defamed, we intreat: we are made as the filth of the world, and are the offscouring of all things unto this day.
    joaniemarie likes this.

  9. #549
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    August 27th, 2012
    Age
    55
    Posts
    2,249
    Rep Power
    21

    Default Re: word of faith movement

    Quote Originally Posted by Angela53510 View Post
    I know Devo already dealt with this, but I thought I would add my objections to this.

    First, Jesus was God. He did not NEED faith in God, to do miracles, because he WAS God. As for you and your WoF friends, you are NOT god. Any kind of god, ever. For example, if you were a god, you would be immortal. When the Bible clearly says we are mortal.

    20 Terrify them, Lord!
    Let the nations know they are mere mortals! (Selah)” Psalm 9:20

    “But Peter helped him up, saying, “Stand up. I too am a mere mortal.” Acts 10:26


    So many other verses that use “mortal” clearly, or point to our fragility as humans, because we are NOT gods!

    So, that is the first place you have messed up. Jesus was God, we are not!

    Well, I can't fault you for not using scripture to back up what you say.
    Only, I never claimed to be God. Nor have I claimed to be the Son of God.
    But unlike you, I believe what is written, AS IT IS WRITTEN.
    If Jesus said we, who are sons and daughters of the Father, are gods, NOT GODS, but little gods, then we are.
    We are gods in one sense that we are made partakers of His divine nature. That is, to those who have receive the spirit of power.
    If it is written or if Jesus said we are, then that word He spoke is truth.
    It has nothing to do with being immortal.
    No one is saying we will live forever in this mortal body.

    Quote Originally Posted by Angela53510 View Post

    Second, in your verse above, you seem to have forgotten who Jesus is talking to, when he says “you.” Even your KJV is very clear, using YE to mean 2nd person plural - You all

    ἀποκριθεὶς δὲ ὁ Ἰησοῦς εἶπεν αὐτοῖς· Ἀμὴν λέγω ὑμῖν, ἐὰν ἔχητε πίστιν καὶ μὴ διακριθῆτε, οὐ μόνον τὸ τῆς συκῆς ποιήσετε, ἀλλὰ κἂν τῷ ὄρει τούτῳ εἴπητε· Ἄρθητι καὶ βλήθητι εἰς τὴν θάλασσαν, γενήσεται·” Matt 21:21 Greek.

    ὑμῖν - you, 2nd person plural dative
    ποιήσετε - 2nd person plural Future Indicative Active “you will do.”


    So, is Jesus saying “I” need faith to do it? No, he is not talking first person singular. And as already noted, no disciple curses a fig tree and it died, or cast a mountain into the sea. So, clearly, Jesus had an object lesson of killing the fig tree, and then showing them how it was so important for them to have faith. Why did he say this at this time? Because it was the week of the Passover, Jesus just had his triumphal entrance into Jerusalem in chapter 21, and he was on his way to die on the cross by Friday. He wanted the disciples to have faith in him, not faith in faith, or faith to do miracles, but rather faith to believe he would rise again.

    And did the disciples have faith? Well, no, they didn’t believe Jesus was who he said he was. And they didn’t do miracles or signs and wonders that are recorded in any of the gospels or Acts, until the day of Pentecost, the birth of the church.

    So - Jesus is God, you are not! He was talking to the disciples to have faith about what was to come, not saying he had faith, so they should too.

    Just poor exegetics - every post you make!
    As you have stated in another post, I am no Greek scholar, nor do I know any Greek or Hebrew. But I am intelligent enough to read and understand the definitions of the Greek scholars who wrote the dictionaries and commentaries.
    I have to admit, I enjoy reading individual words from bible verses that others have expounded upon, but I'm pretty sure you didn't say anything I didn't already know. Not unless I missed something.
    As far as I can tell, Matthew 21:21 is the same as Mark 11:23.
    So as for the "you" or "ye" whom Jesus was addressing, I would say it is to the same "whosoever that shall say unto..." He was speaking to in Mk.
    And this has nothing to do with us having faith in ourselves or faith is faith, whatever that means, it has to do with having faith in God or having the faith of God, as Jesus stated in verse 22 in the book of Mk.
    Since you're so good at understanding Greek, would you mind interpreting some key words in Mark 11:23 and 24?
    Things like, verily, whosoever, no doubt in heart, believe it shall come to pass, whatsoever he says, things soever you desire, believe you have them, and you shall have them.

    Mar 11:22 And Jesus answering saith unto them, Have faith in God.
    Mar 11:23 For verily I say unto you, That whosoever shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; and shall not doubt in his heart, but shall believe that those things which he saith shall come to pass; he shall have whatsoever he saith.
    Mar 11:24 Therefore I say unto you, What things soever ye desire, when ye pray, believe that ye receive them, and ye shall have them.
    stonesoffire and joaniemarie like this.

  10. #550
    Senior Member Angela53510's Avatar
    Join Date
    January 24th, 2011
    Age
    64
    Posts
    9,439
    Blog Entries
    2
    Rep Power
    331

    Default Re: word of faith movement

    Quote Originally Posted by know1 View Post

    Well, I can't fault you for not using scripture to back up what you say.
    Only, I never claimed to be God. Nor have I claimed to be the Son of God.
    But unlike you, I believe what is written, AS IT IS WRITTEN.
    If Jesus said we, who are sons and daughters of the Father, are gods, NOT GODS, but little gods, then we are.
    We are gods in one sense that we are made partakers of His divine nature. That is, to those who have receive the spirit of power.
    If it is written or if Jesus said we are, then that word He spoke is truth.
    It has nothing to do with being immortal.
    No one is saying we will live forever in this mortal body.


    As you have stated in another post, I am no Greek scholar, nor do I know any Greek or Hebrew. But I am intelligent enough to read and understand the definitions of the Greek scholars who wrote the dictionaries and commentaries.
    I have to admit, I enjoy reading individual words from bible verses that others have expounded upon, but I'm pretty sure you didn't say anything I didn't already know. Not unless I missed something.
    As far as I can tell, Matthew 21:21 is the same as Mark 11:23.
    So as for the "you" or "ye" whom Jesus was addressing, I would say it is to the same "whosoever that shall say unto..." He was speaking to in Mk.
    And this has nothing to do with us having faith in ourselves or faith is faith, whatever that means, it has to do with having faith in God or having the faith of God, as Jesus stated in verse 22 in the book of Mk.
    Since you're so good at understanding Greek, would you mind interpreting some key words in Mark 11:23 and 24?
    Things like, verily, whosoever, no doubt in heart, believe it shall come to pass, whatsoever he says, things soever you desire, believe you have them, and you shall have them.

    Mar 11:22 And Jesus answering saith unto them, Have faith in God.
    Mar 11:23 For verily I say unto you, That whosoever shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; and shall not doubt in his heart, but shall believe that those things which he saith shall come to pass; he shall have whatsoever he saith.
    Mar 11:24 Therefore I say unto you, What things soever ye desire, when ye pray, believe that ye receive them, and ye shall have them.

    So “but little gods,” which I bolded above. You say “we are gods.” And above that, you say there is God. Now, by my lights you have:

    God - that’s one God
    little gods - a multitude of gods.

    So 1 God + many gods = polytheism.

    You have elevated yourself to some kind of godlike status, which is completely the opposite of Biblical Christianity. It is the opposite of the whole Bible! Jesus himself had the entire Jewish establishment after him for saying he was God. They crucified him for saying he was God, because the entire OT is about people who were supposed to worship YHWH, and instead, they worshiped other gods.

    Have you ever even read the OT? Because it is all about the unfaithful Israelites, who chased after foreign gods, when God said, “You shall have no other gods before me!” Have you ever read the prophets? They are all about false gods, and false prophets. So, the WoF manages to be both! A bunch of false prophets telling people they are gods, turning from the living God, to call themselves gods. What blasphemy!

    As far as being partakers of the divine nature, probably best to look at the whole passage. These kinds of gross errors always coming from ripping verses out of context.

    I can pray this because his divine power has bestowed on us everything necessary for life and godliness through the rich knowledge of the one who called us by his own glory and excellence. 4 Through these things he has bestowed on us his precious and most magnificent promises, so that by means of what was promised you may become partakers of the divine nature, after escaping the worldly corruption that is produced by evil desire. 5 For this very reason, make every effort to add to your faith excellence, to excellence, knowledge; 6 to knowledge, self-control; to self-control, perseverance; to perseverance, godliness; 7 to godliness, brotherly affection; to brotherly affection, unselfish love. 8 For if these things are really yours and are continually increasing, they will keep you from becoming ineffective and unproductive in your pursuit of knowing our Lord Jesus Christ more intimately. 9 But concerning the one who lacks such things—he is blind. That is to say, he is nearsighted, since he has forgotten about the cleansing of his past sins. 10 Therefore, brothers and sisters, make every effort to be sure of your calling and election. For by doing this you will never stumble into sin. 11 For thus an entrance into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ, will be richly provided for you.” 2 Peter 1:3-11 NET

    So, God saves us and gives us a new nature! I agree totally. As born again believers, the Holy Spirit does dwell within us. BUT, that does not make US divine. This is the WoF lie. Look above at the verses I posted in modern English, because I do not understand KJV. We escape worldly corruption produced by evil desire, by being “in Christ.” Absolutely.

    Then, it adds qualities the Holy Spirit is developing in us. Peter is admonishing believers to use the gifts God has given us, to be changed into different people. Read verses 5-7 for this.

    Then, it says these things (which are the qualities, not some kind of divine godhead!) and continually increasing. Do you know anything about God? He is perfect and complete. We are not! That alone makes us not gods. And we need to be “continually increasing” so we are not ineffective and unproductive. In what? In knowing our Lord Jesus Christ better.

    Peter ends with a startling comment in verses 10-11. He tells us to be sure of our calling, so we do not stumble, into sin. If we were gods, would that possibility be there? Gods don’t generally stumble and sin. Well, I guess the Roman, Greek and probably Egyptian and Babylonian gods did sin. The stories are rife with gods who lose their powers, get tied up, demoted, because they came against higher gods who defeated them.

    But in fact, those panopolies of gods are not really gods, are they? They are the false gods Isaiah talks about.

    "Their land is full of worthless idols;
    they worship the product of their own hands,
    what their own fingers have fashioned.
    9 Men bow down to them in homage,
    they lie flat on the ground in worship.
    Don’t spare them!
    10 Go up into the rocky cliffs,
    hide in the ground.
    Get away from the dreadful judgment of the Lord,
    from his royal splendor!
    11 Proud men will be brought low,
    arrogant men will be humiliated;

    the Lord alone will be exalted
    in that day." Isa. 2:8-11

    They worship worthless idols. You have made yourself a worthless idol, by claiming you are a god. Word of Faith believers are proud men and they will be brought low, arrogant men who will be humiliated.

    It really doesn't get more arrogant and proud than for a mere mortal to claim he is a god, based on a verse pulled out of context.

    This is the foundational lie of the WoF movement. Because if we are gods, of course we should be able to command things with our mouths, and speak things into existence that were not, as God does.

    BUT, we are NOT GODS! Not lower case, or upper case! We are mortals, and God has graciously saved us, and made us new "creatures" in Christ. Or a new creation.
    even the very word "creatures" tells us we had someone else do the creating, because we are not gods. So, does that mean we suddenly became gods? No, it means we mortals have the power of God dwelling in our lives, to change and grow in character, and to do the works he prepared for us. And those works are NOT commanding things into existence, which only a real God can do.

    No, those works are helping the poor, those in prison, those who are hungry, thirsty, and naked. (see Matt 25:31-40) But where is that in the WoF doctrine? I have never heard a WoF person talk about Matt 25. Or the entire book of Isaiah, Jeremiah, in that they were written to return a rebellious and evil generation back to God. Those works are spreading the gospel. Those works are being transformed by the Holy Spirit, finding your gifts and then doing them.

    Then there is this, you write, which is a complete twisting and distortion of a simple verse, whether KJV or a totally modern version.


    "
    having the faith of God, as Jesus stated in verse 22 in the book of Mk."

    Are you kidding me? Did you not read the verse you have posted? Mark 11:22? The fact is, this is what the verse says.

    "Jesus said to them, “Have faith in God." Mark 11:22 NET

    "
    And Jesus answering saith unto them, Have faith in God." Mark 11:22 KJV

    The entire incident of Jesus in verses 22:12-14 & 20-21 is very interesting. First, it is not known whether verses 22-25 are even connected to the fig tree incident. Bibles often put them together.

    Second, and please think on this, cursing the fig tree is a destructive act. Throwing a mountain into the sea is a destructive act, and obviously proverbial. I cannot believe that Jesus meant these things literally, although he certainly curses and killed the fig tree. But why?

    Jesus was offering an "acted" parable showing God's judgement on "unfruitful" Israel. Mark's structuring of this section suggests such an interpretation, and it is supported by the prophetic use of fig trees and their fruit, (especially early or first ripe fruit, which would have been what the fig tree would have on it around Passover, when this takes place), to symbolize the people of God and their obedience.

    See:

    "I will take away their harvests, says the Lord.
    There will be no grapes on their vines.
    There will be no figs on their fig trees.
    Even the leaves on their trees will wither.
    The crops that I gave them will be taken away.’”Jeremiah 8:13 NET


    "
    The Lord showed me two baskets of figs sitting before his temple. This happened after King Nebuchadnezzar of Babylon deported Jehoiakim’s son, King Jeconiah of Judah. He deported him and the leaders of Judah, along with the craftsmen and metal workers, and took them to Babylon. 2 One basket had very good-looking figs in it. They looked like those that had ripened early. The other basket had very bad-looking figs in it, so bad they could not be eaten. 3 The Lord said to me, “What do you see, Jeremiah?” I answered, “I see figs. The good ones look very good. But the bad ones look very bad, so bad that they cannot be eaten.”4 The Lord said to me, 5 “I, the Lord, the God of Israel, say: ‘The exiles whom I sent away from here to the land of Babylon are like those good figs. I consider them to be good. 6 I will look after their welfare and will restore them to this land. There I will build them up and will not tear them down. I will plant them firmly in the land and will not uproot them. 7 I will give them the desire to acknowledge that I am the Lord. I will be their God and they will be my people. For they will wholeheartedly return to me.’
    8 “I, the Lord, also solemnly assert: ‘King Zedekiah of Judah, his officials, and the people who remain in Jerusalem or who have gone to live in Egypt are like those bad figs. I consider them to be just like those bad figs that are so bad they cannot be eaten. 9 I will bring such disaster on them that all the kingdoms of the earth will be horrified. I will make them an object of reproach, a proverbial example of disaster. I will make them an object of ridicule, an example to be used in curses. That is how they will be remembered wherever I banish them. 10 I will bring war, starvation, and disease on them until they are completely destroyed from the land I gave them and their ancestors.’” Jer. 24:1-10

    Other verses include: Hosea 9:10, 16-17; Micah 7:1 and in the NT Luke 13:6-9.

    The evidence suggests that Mark and his readers would have had no difficulty in recognizing the symbolism of the unsuccessful search for fruit.

    So, think prophet destruction when you read these verses, and that the answer is to have faith in God!

    Much more to comment on, but it is very late, and I've written enough!


    PennEd likes this.
    "And He has said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for power is perfected in weakness.” Most gladly, therefore, I will rather boast about my weaknesses, so that the power of Christ may dwell in me." 2 Cor. 12:9 NASB

  11. #551
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    January 6th, 2018
    Posts
    774
    Rep Power
    24

    Default Re: word of faith movement

    Quote Originally Posted by stonesoffire View Post
    I have no idea what you are talking about.
    You left out the article for THE Father and THE Holy Spirit. That is an NAR practice. You must have picked it up from NAR sermons or books.
    Angela53510 likes this.

  12. #552
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    January 6th, 2018
    Posts
    774
    Rep Power
    24

    Default Re: word of faith movement

    Quote Originally Posted by Angela53510 View Post
    So “but little gods,” which I bolded above. You say “we are gods.” And above that, you say there is God. Now, by my lights you have:

    God - that’s one God
    little gods - a multitude of gods.

    So 1 God + many gods = polytheism.

    You have elevated yourself to some kind of godlike status, which is completely the opposite of Biblical Christianity. It is the opposite of the whole Bible! Jesus himself had the entire Jewish establishment after him for saying he was God. They crucified him for saying he was God, because the entire OT is about people who were supposed to worship YHWH, and instead, they worshiped other gods.

    Have you ever even read the OT? Because it is all about the unfaithful Israelites, who chased after foreign gods, when God said, “You shall have no other gods before me!” Have you ever read the prophets? They are all about false gods, and false prophets. So, the WoF manages to be both! A bunch of false prophets telling people they are gods, turning from the living God, to call themselves gods. What blasphemy!

    As far as being partakers of the divine nature, probably best to look at the whole passage. These kinds of gross errors always coming from ripping verses out of context.

    I can pray this because his divine power has bestowed on us everything necessary for life and godliness through the rich knowledge of the one who called us by his own glory and excellence. 4 Through these things he has bestowed on us his precious and most magnificent promises, so that by means of what was promised you may become partakers of the divine nature, after escaping the worldly corruption that is produced by evil desire. 5 For this very reason, make every effort to add to your faith excellence, to excellence, knowledge; 6 to knowledge, self-control; to self-control, perseverance; to perseverance, godliness; 7 to godliness, brotherly affection; to brotherly affection, unselfish love. 8 For if these things are really yours and are continually increasing, they will keep you from becoming ineffective and unproductive in your pursuit of knowing our Lord Jesus Christ more intimately. 9 But concerning the one who lacks such things—he is blind. That is to say, he is nearsighted, since he has forgotten about the cleansing of his past sins. 10 Therefore, brothers and sisters, make every effort to be sure of your calling and election. For by doing this you will never stumble into sin. 11 For thus an entrance into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ, will be richly provided for you.” 2 Peter 1:3-11 NET

    So, God saves us and gives us a new nature! I agree totally. As born again believers, the Holy Spirit does dwell within us. BUT, that does not make US divine. This is the WoF lie. Look above at the verses I posted in modern English, because I do not understand KJV. We escape worldly corruption produced by evil desire, by being “in Christ.” Absolutely.

    Then, it adds qualities the Holy Spirit is developing in us. Peter is admonishing believers to use the gifts God has given us, to be changed into different people. Read verses 5-7 for this.

    Then, it says these things (which are the qualities, not some kind of divine godhead!) and continually increasing. Do you know anything about God? He is perfect and complete. We are not! That alone makes us not gods. And we need to be “continually increasing” so we are not ineffective and unproductive. In what? In knowing our Lord Jesus Christ better.

    Peter ends with a startling comment in verses 10-11. He tells us to be sure of our calling, so we do not stumble, into sin. If we were gods, would that possibility be there? Gods don’t generally stumble and sin. Well, I guess the Roman, Greek and probably Egyptian and Babylonian gods did sin. The stories are rife with gods who lose their powers, get tied up, demoted, because they came against higher gods who defeated them.

    But in fact, those panopolies of gods are not really gods, are they? They are the false gods Isaiah talks about.

    "Their land is full of worthless idols;
    they worship the product of their own hands,
    what their own fingers have fashioned.
    9 Men bow down to them in homage,
    they lie flat on the ground in worship.
    Don’t spare them!
    10 Go up into the rocky cliffs,
    hide in the ground.
    Get away from the dreadful judgment of the Lord,
    from his royal splendor!
    11 Proud men will be brought low,
    arrogant men will be humiliated;

    the Lord alone will be exalted
    in that day." Isa. 2:8-11

    They worship worthless idols. You have made yourself a worthless idol, by claiming you are a god. Word of Faith believers are proud men and they will be brought low, arrogant men who will be humiliated.

    It really doesn't get more arrogant and proud than for a mere mortal to claim he is a god, based on a verse pulled out of context.

    This is the foundational lie of the WoF movement. Because if we are gods, of course we should be able to command things with our mouths, and speak things into existence that were not, as God does.

    BUT, we are NOT GODS! Not lower case, or upper case! We are mortals, and God has graciously saved us, and made us new "creatures" in Christ. Or a new creation.
    even the very word "creatures" tells us we had someone else do the creating, because we are not gods. So, does that mean we suddenly became gods? No, it means we mortals have the power of God dwelling in our lives, to change and grow in character, and to do the works he prepared for us. And those works are NOT commanding things into existence, which only a real God can do.

    No, those works are helping the poor, those in prison, those who are hungry, thirsty, and naked. (see Matt 25:31-40) But where is that in the WoF doctrine? I have never heard a WoF person talk about Matt 25. Or the entire book of Isaiah, Jeremiah, in that they were written to return a rebellious and evil generation back to God. Those works are spreading the gospel. Those works are being transformed by the Holy Spirit, finding your gifts and then doing them.

    Then there is this, you write, which is a complete twisting and distortion of a simple verse, whether KJV or a totally modern version.


    "
    having the faith of God, as Jesus stated in verse 22 in the book of Mk."

    Are you kidding me? Did you not read the verse you have posted? Mark 11:22? The fact is, this is what the verse says.

    "Jesus said to them, “Have faith in God." Mark 11:22 NET

    "
    And Jesus answering saith unto them, Have faith in God." Mark 11:22 KJV

    The entire incident of Jesus in verses 22:12-14 & 20-21 is very interesting. First, it is not known whether verses 22-25 are even connected to the fig tree incident. Bibles often put them together.

    Second, and please think on this, cursing the fig tree is a destructive act. Throwing a mountain into the sea is a destructive act, and obviously proverbial. I cannot believe that Jesus meant these things literally, although he certainly curses and killed the fig tree. But why?

    Jesus was offering an "acted" parable showing God's judgement on "unfruitful" Israel. Mark's structuring of this section suggests such an interpretation, and it is supported by the prophetic use of fig trees and their fruit, (especially early or first ripe fruit, which would have been what the fig tree would have on it around Passover, when this takes place), to symbolize the people of God and their obedience.

    See:

    "I will take away their harvests, says the Lord.
    There will be no grapes on their vines.
    There will be no figs on their fig trees.
    Even the leaves on their trees will wither.
    The crops that I gave them will be taken away.’”Jeremiah 8:13 NET


    "
    The Lord showed me two baskets of figs sitting before his temple. This happened after King Nebuchadnezzar of Babylon deported Jehoiakim’s son, King Jeconiah of Judah. He deported him and the leaders of Judah, along with the craftsmen and metal workers, and took them to Babylon. 2 One basket had very good-looking figs in it. They looked like those that had ripened early. The other basket had very bad-looking figs in it, so bad they could not be eaten. 3 The Lord said to me, “What do you see, Jeremiah?” I answered, “I see figs. The good ones look very good. But the bad ones look very bad, so bad that they cannot be eaten.”4 The Lord said to me, 5 “I, the Lord, the God of Israel, say: ‘The exiles whom I sent away from here to the land of Babylon are like those good figs. I consider them to be good. 6 I will look after their welfare and will restore them to this land. There I will build them up and will not tear them down. I will plant them firmly in the land and will not uproot them. 7 I will give them the desire to acknowledge that I am the Lord. I will be their God and they will be my people. For they will wholeheartedly return to me.’
    8 “I, the Lord, also solemnly assert: ‘King Zedekiah of Judah, his officials, and the people who remain in Jerusalem or who have gone to live in Egypt are like those bad figs. I consider them to be just like those bad figs that are so bad they cannot be eaten. 9 I will bring such disaster on them that all the kingdoms of the earth will be horrified. I will make them an object of reproach, a proverbial example of disaster. I will make them an object of ridicule, an example to be used in curses. That is how they will be remembered wherever I banish them. 10 I will bring war, starvation, and disease on them until they are completely destroyed from the land I gave them and their ancestors.’” Jer. 24:1-10

    Other verses include: Hosea 9:10, 16-17; Micah 7:1 and in the NT Luke 13:6-9.

    The evidence suggests that Mark and his readers would have had no difficulty in recognizing the symbolism of the unsuccessful search for fruit.

    So, think prophet destruction when you read these verses, and that the answer is to have faith in God!

    Much more to comment on, but it is very late, and I've written enough!


    That's a good one! The logical conclusion of WOF would turn the earth into a barren flat land if all the WOF people each killed a tree and leveled a mountain into the ocean.
    Angela53510 likes this.

  13. #553
    Senior Member joaniemarie's Avatar
    Join Date
    January 4th, 2017
    Age
    59
    Posts
    2,340
    Rep Power
    110

    Default Re: word of faith movement

    I've been checking out some of the things being said about Word of Faith and the false accusations made. I found a guy on line named Rod Saunders from Jew and Greek. Excellent info that should be listened to by any and all who have questions about us who lean towards the proper word of faith issues. Mr. Saunders clearly touches on each subject being discussed here and does it eloquently.

    I'm constantly blessed by those who are being lead of the Spirit because they have no anger or need to use straw man tactics when they share their faith. Their conversation is always seasoned with salt and they always show grace. Here is one video that should be listened to. I'll post #1 in a while. I listened to it some time last week and this #2 today. I'll post more as I go along. Blessings!

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BB8WmtQh_Ns

    know1 likes this.

  14. #554
    Senior Member joaniemarie's Avatar
    Join Date
    January 4th, 2017
    Age
    59
    Posts
    2,340
    Rep Power
    110

    Default Re: word of faith movement


  15. #555
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    January 6th, 2018
    Posts
    774
    Rep Power
    24

    Default Re: word of faith movement

    Quote Originally Posted by joaniemarie View Post
    I've been checking out some of the things being said about Word of Faith and the false accusations made. I found a guy on line named Rod Saunders from Jew and Greek. Excellent info that should be listened to by any and all who have questions about us who lean towards the proper word of faith issues. Mr. Saunders clearly touches on each subject being discussed here and does it eloquently.

    I'm constantly blessed by those who are being lead of the Spirit because they have no anger or need to use straw man tactics when they share their faith. Their conversation is always seasoned with salt and they always show grace. Here is one video that should be listened to. I'll post #1 in a while. I listened to it some time last week and this #2 today. I'll post more as I go along. Blessings!

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BB8WmtQh_Ns

    Word of Faith people always jump to the "that's not what I am saying" defense. Well if it is not what you are saying then why are you saying it?
    Angela53510 likes this.

  16. #556
    Senior Member joaniemarie's Avatar
    Join Date
    January 4th, 2017
    Age
    59
    Posts
    2,340
    Rep Power
    110

    Default Re: word of faith movement

    Oh us word of faith "people" are so much more nuttier than you Calvin "people".

    Seriously though., none of us here on earth can claim "infallibility" OR "perfection" All of us Christians still need to rely on the Holy Spirit for everything we will ever know here on earth.

  17. #557
    Senior Member PennEd's Avatar
    Join Date
    April 22nd, 2013
    Age
    54
    Posts
    4,491
    Blog Entries
    1
    Rep Power
    300

    Default Re: word of faith movement

    Quote Originally Posted by know1 View Post

    Well, I can't fault you for not using scripture to back up what you say.
    Only, I never claimed to be God. Nor have I claimed to be the Son of God.
    But unlike you, I believe what is written, AS IT IS WRITTEN.
    If Jesus said we, who are sons and daughters of the Father, are gods, NOT GODS, but little gods, then we are.
    We are gods in one sense that we are made partakers of His divine nature. That is, to those who have receive the spirit of power.
    If it is written or if Jesus said we are, then that word He spoke is truth.
    It has nothing to do with being immortal.
    No one is saying we will live forever in this mortal body.


    As you have stated in another post, I am no Greek scholar, nor do I know any Greek or Hebrew. But I am intelligent enough to read and understand the definitions of the Greek scholars who wrote the dictionaries and commentaries.
    I have to admit, I enjoy reading individual words from bible verses that others have expounded upon, but I'm pretty sure you didn't say anything I didn't already know. Not unless I missed something.
    As far as I can tell, Matthew 21:21 is the same as Mark 11:23.
    So as for the "you" or "ye" whom Jesus was addressing, I would say it is to the same "whosoever that shall say unto..." He was speaking to in Mk.
    And this has nothing to do with us having faith in ourselves or faith is faith, whatever that means, it has to do with having faith in God or having the faith of God, as Jesus stated in verse 22 in the book of Mk.
    Since you're so good at understanding Greek, would you mind interpreting some key words in Mark 11:23 and 24?
    Things like, verily, whosoever, no doubt in heart, believe it shall come to pass, whatsoever he says, things soever you desire, believe you have them, and you shall have them.

    Mar 11:22 And Jesus answering saith unto them, Have faith in God.
    Mar 11:23 For verily I say unto you, That whosoever shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; and shall not doubt in his heart, but shall believe that those things which he saith shall come to pass; he shall have whatsoever he saith.
    Mar 11:24 Therefore I say unto you, What things soever ye desire, when ye pray, believe that ye receive them, and ye shall have them.
    Everything you say, and this movement in general, is Scriptural and true, BUT you seem to be completely blinded to the GIGANTIC chasm of truth, that is right in front of you.

    ALL this moving mountains, bountiful living, healings, speaking in tongues, raising people from the dead, etc...! IS CONTINGENT ON THE WILL OF GOD!

    So if it serves the Will of God to give you faith enough to cast a mountain into the sea for HIS purposes, then by golly you can cast that mountain into the sea.

    Jesus' Will would have been to turn stones into bread. He was starving. He had the ability and faith to do it, but by the WHOLE counsel of God, through the Word, He knew it wasn't the Father's Will.

    Jesus wasn't going to ascent to the temptations to do magic tricks like jumping off the Temple or perform some miracle for Herod. Not for freedom, not for glory, not to avoid persecution. ONLY BY THE FATHER'S WILL.

    Jesus was tempted all through the Gospels to gain the kingdom WITHOUT going to the cross.
    Satan showing, and offering Him ALL the Empires throughout time.
    Peter saying he would never allow Jesus to be killed.
    The criminal on the cross telling Him if He were the Christ to get them all off their crosses.

    The point is Jesus NEVER did anything that went against the Will of God. And he KNEW Always what that perfect Will was.

    That is what is so terribly wrong with this doctrine. You DON'T know the perfect Will of God, and how He can and does use afflictions and hardships to bring about That perfect Will.
    Angela53510 likes this.

  18. #558
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    August 27th, 2012
    Age
    55
    Posts
    2,249
    Rep Power
    21

    Default Re: word of faith movement

    Quote Originally Posted by Angela53510 View Post
    So “but little gods,” which I bolded above. You say “we are gods.” And above that, you say there is God. Now, by my lights you have:

    God - that’s one God
    little gods - a multitude of gods.

    So 1 God + many gods = polytheism.

    You have elevated yourself to some kind of godlike status, which is completely the opposite of Biblical Christianity. It is the opposite of the whole Bible! Jesus himself had the entire Jewish establishment after him for saying he was God. They crucified him for saying he was God, because the entire OT is about people who were supposed to worship YHWH, and instead, they worshiped other gods.

    Have you ever even read the OT? Because it is all about the unfaithful Israelites, who chased after foreign gods, when God said, “You shall have no other gods before me!” Have you ever read the prophets? They are all about false gods, and false prophets. So, the WoF manages to be both! A bunch of false prophets telling people they are gods, turning from the living God, to call themselves gods. What blasphemy!

    As far as being partakers of the divine nature, probably best to look at the whole passage. These kinds of gross errors always coming from ripping verses out of context.

    I can pray this because his divine power has bestowed on us everything necessary for life and godliness through the rich knowledge of the one who called us by his own glory and excellence. 4 Through these things he has bestowed on us his precious and most magnificent promises, so that by means of what was promised you may become partakers of the divine nature, after escaping the worldly corruption that is produced by evil desire. 5 For this very reason, make every effort to add to your faith excellence, to excellence, knowledge; 6 to knowledge, self-control; to self-control, perseverance; to perseverance, godliness; 7 to godliness, brotherly affection; to brotherly affection, unselfish love. 8 For if these things are really yours and are continually increasing, they will keep you from becoming ineffective and unproductive in your pursuit of knowing our Lord Jesus Christ more intimately. 9 But concerning the one who lacks such things—he is blind. That is to say, he is nearsighted, since he has forgotten about the cleansing of his past sins. 10 Therefore, brothers and sisters, make every effort to be sure of your calling and election. For by doing this you will never stumble into sin. 11 For thus an entrance into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ, will be richly provided for you.” 2 Peter 1:3-11 NET

    So, God saves us and gives us a new nature! I agree totally. As born again believers, the Holy Spirit does dwell within us. BUT, that does not make US divine. This is the WoF lie. Look above at the verses I posted in modern English, because I do not understand KJV. We escape worldly corruption produced by evil desire, by being “in Christ.” Absolutely.

    Then, it adds qualities the Holy Spirit is developing in us. Peter is admonishing believers to use the gifts God has given us, to be changed into different people. Read verses 5-7 for this.

    Then, it says these things (which are the qualities, not some kind of divine godhead!) and continually increasing. Do you know anything about God? He is perfect and complete. We are not! That alone makes us not gods. And we need to be “continually increasing” so we are not ineffective and unproductive. In what? In knowing our Lord Jesus Christ better.

    Peter ends with a startling comment in verses 10-11. He tells us to be sure of our calling, so we do not stumble, into sin. If we were gods, would that possibility be there? Gods don’t generally stumble and sin. Well, I guess the Roman, Greek and probably Egyptian and Babylonian gods did sin. The stories are rife with gods who lose their powers, get tied up, demoted, because they came against higher gods who defeated them.

    But in fact, those panopolies of gods are not really gods, are they? They are the false gods Isaiah talks about.

    "Their land is full of worthless idols;
    they worship the product of their own hands,
    what their own fingers have fashioned.
    9 Men bow down to them in homage,
    they lie flat on the ground in worship.
    Don’t spare them!
    10 Go up into the rocky cliffs,
    hide in the ground.
    Get away from the dreadful judgment of the Lord,
    from his royal splendor!
    11 Proud men will be brought low,
    arrogant men will be humiliated;

    the Lord alone will be exalted
    in that day." Isa. 2:8-11

    They worship worthless idols. You have made yourself a worthless idol, by claiming you are a god. Word of Faith believers are proud men and they will be brought low, arrogant men who will be humiliated.

    It really doesn't get more arrogant and proud than for a mere mortal to claim he is a god, based on a verse pulled out of context.

    This is the foundational lie of the WoF movement. Because if we are gods, of course we should be able to command things with our mouths, and speak things into existence that were not, as God does.

    BUT, we are NOT GODS! Not lower case, or upper case! We are mortals, and God has graciously saved us, and made us new "creatures" in Christ. Or a new creation.
    even the very word "creatures" tells us we had someone else do the creating, because we are not gods. So, does that mean we suddenly became gods? No, it means we mortals have the power of God dwelling in our lives, to change and grow in character, and to do the works he prepared for us. And those works are NOT commanding things into existence, which only a real God can do.

    No, those works are helping the poor, those in prison, those who are hungry, thirsty, and naked. (see Matt 25:31-40) But where is that in the WoF doctrine? I have never heard a WoF person talk about Matt 25. Or the entire book of Isaiah, Jeremiah, in that they were written to return a rebellious and evil generation back to God. Those works are spreading the gospel. Those works are being transformed by the Holy Spirit, finding your gifts and then doing them.

    Then there is this, you write, which is a complete twisting and distortion of a simple verse, whether KJV or a totally modern version.


    "
    having the faith of God, as Jesus stated in verse 22 in the book of Mk."

    Are you kidding me? Did you not read the verse you have posted? Mark 11:22? The fact is, this is what the verse says.

    "Jesus said to them, “Have faith in God." Mark 11:22 NET

    "
    And Jesus answering saith unto them, Have faith in God." Mark 11:22 KJV

    The entire incident of Jesus in verses 22:12-14 & 20-21 is very interesting. First, it is not known whether verses 22-25 are even connected to the fig tree incident. Bibles often put them together.

    Second, and please think on this, cursing the fig tree is a destructive act. Throwing a mountain into the sea is a destructive act, and obviously proverbial. I cannot believe that Jesus meant these things literally, although he certainly curses and killed the fig tree. But why?

    Jesus was offering an "acted" parable showing God's judgement on "unfruitful" Israel. Mark's structuring of this section suggests such an interpretation, and it is supported by the prophetic use of fig trees and their fruit, (especially early or first ripe fruit, which would have been what the fig tree would have on it around Passover, when this takes place), to symbolize the people of God and their obedience.

    See:

    "I will take away their harvests, says the Lord.
    There will be no grapes on their vines.
    There will be no figs on their fig trees.
    Even the leaves on their trees will wither.
    The crops that I gave them will be taken away.’”Jeremiah 8:13 NET


    "
    The Lord showed me two baskets of figs sitting before his temple. This happened after King Nebuchadnezzar of Babylon deported Jehoiakim’s son, King Jeconiah of Judah. He deported him and the leaders of Judah, along with the craftsmen and metal workers, and took them to Babylon. 2 One basket had very good-looking figs in it. They looked like those that had ripened early. The other basket had very bad-looking figs in it, so bad they could not be eaten. 3 The Lord said to me, “What do you see, Jeremiah?” I answered, “I see figs. The good ones look very good. But the bad ones look very bad, so bad that they cannot be eaten.”4 The Lord said to me, 5 “I, the Lord, the God of Israel, say: ‘The exiles whom I sent away from here to the land of Babylon are like those good figs. I consider them to be good. 6 I will look after their welfare and will restore them to this land. There I will build them up and will not tear them down. I will plant them firmly in the land and will not uproot them. 7 I will give them the desire to acknowledge that I am the Lord. I will be their God and they will be my people. For they will wholeheartedly return to me.’
    8 “I, the Lord, also solemnly assert: ‘King Zedekiah of Judah, his officials, and the people who remain in Jerusalem or who have gone to live in Egypt are like those bad figs. I consider them to be just like those bad figs that are so bad they cannot be eaten. 9 I will bring such disaster on them that all the kingdoms of the earth will be horrified. I will make them an object of reproach, a proverbial example of disaster. I will make them an object of ridicule, an example to be used in curses. That is how they will be remembered wherever I banish them. 10 I will bring war, starvation, and disease on them until they are completely destroyed from the land I gave them and their ancestors.’” Jer. 24:1-10

    Other verses include: Hosea 9:10, 16-17; Micah 7:1 and in the NT Luke 13:6-9.

    The evidence suggests that Mark and his readers would have had no difficulty in recognizing the symbolism of the unsuccessful search for fruit.

    So, think prophet destruction when you read these verses, and that the answer is to have faith in God!

    Much more to comment on, but it is very late, and I've written enough!


    I have read your post ma'am, and will reply in kind to some of your assertions in another post, but for this one I would like to ask you a few questions.
    I normally quote scripture to back up much of what I say, but putting that aside for now, I would like to appeal to some common logical sense.
    You obviously have read the bible and believe most of what is written.
    I say most, because you ignore and/or deny a great deal of what is written when it comes to the power of God operating in a person's life, which I will get to.
    You have read, how God the Father did many mighty works through Jesus, for Jesus Himself said, that the Father does the works, and that would mean, through Him. John 14:10
    And you don't doubt that God the Father did those works through Jesus, who is The Son of God.
    I am not The Son of God, nor am I God, but a son of God, and God said He would do the greater works THROUGH US, His children, than He did through Jesus, if that be true. This is something you do not believe, even though it is written.
    Now, others and myself have told you and everyone who reads our posts, some of the works God has done through us, and they are either ignored or passed off as a lie.
    At what point would you stop calling us a liar, and start believing what we say is FACT, and NOT FICTION. And if all the testimonies are actual facts, then when do you start asking, who is doing the good works in our lives, God or the devil?
    I don't make up stories. If I did, first, I would be a wicked and deceitful person, and second, I would come up with some outlandish miracles. I have told you that I have cursed things to die and be removed, like warts, cysts, lumps, poisonous brown recluse spider bite, arthritis, kidney stones, colds, flues, ...and the list goes on, but you don't believe God the Father did that through me, or the many other works He did through others.
    God said He would back up His word with signs following and we are testifying to all of you of the signs that have followed us, but because you have not seen it with your own eyes, such as hospitals cleared out, literal mountains removed, stars rearranged, nor having created any new ones, with the same said eyes, you refuse to believe what we have said. And because you have NO UNDERSTANDING of how faith works, or even what it is, you impose such ridiculous standard of works of faith on us, that if YOU DON'T SEE THEM WITH YOUR OWN EYES, THEN YOU WILL NOT BELIEVE, and therefore, it CANNOT BE POSSIBLE. All because you cannot believe it.
    Or is it because that "faith stuff" didn't work for you, a family member, or good friend, because they refused medication or treatment, and as a result, died? Or is it because the faith crowd blamed you for not having enough faith, and were shunned and made a cast out because you didn't receive your healing?
    Whatever the reason may be, what about the fact that these things we are saying are actual facts?
    Sure, we haven't created any worlds lately, nor have we cast any mountains or fig tree in one of the oceans, and most of us haven't walked on water, or raised the dead, but many of us have done much smaller things, PURPOSELY, and that was because that was what we had faith for. Right now, I can't believe for a mountain to be cast in the seas if I tell it to, so it's not going to happen. It's just that simple.
    But you can't believe that either, because like Jesus, we would be telling God what He is going to do for or to us, or for that of others.
    You are interpreting scripture based on what you believe, instead of interpreting and believing scripture based solely on what is written.
    We receive BECAUSE WE FIRST BELIEVED, and we believed because, IT IS WRITTEN, in spite of all the rancorous belittling, NOT because we had to SEE IT FIRST, or because one of the disciples didn't do it first, or because so and so's testimony said otherwise and then they died.
    God does nothing through you, and those who believe as you do, but talk. There can be no Christ like power in the life of the born again believer, BECAUSE there is NO power in your life. NOT because it is written, but because of person experiences and that of others.
    You don't believe God is allowed to move through His children in His power, and you deny that He does in other people's lives, calling them liars, while belittling and mocking them with nonsensical scenarios that are almost absurd in nature, to say the least. And all because you don't believe, in spite of what is written.
    Was Jesus led or directed by the Father to heal and/or deliver EVERY person that approached Him?
    So was it God Himself who was telling Jesus what to do or directing Him, or was it the people who approached Him in faith, believing for their healing or deliverance, that directed or told God what He was going to do through Jesus?
    If someone approached you, asking if you would pray for them, like they did with Jesus, who would be doing the directing when you tell them that God doesn't heal anymore like He did with Jesus, or that the gift of healing and miracles went out with the apostles, or it might not be the "will of God", or "God might be using this to teach them something", or to humble them, or simply that they should accept their fate and go with God to their grave?
    Are you a child of God, or are you a servant/serf/slave?
    Are you a righteous saint, or a sinner/worker of iniquity?
    As children, we all called to serve, NOT to think of ourselves as a serfs.
    We have been called to rule and reign in life in and through Christ, as Adam was, EVERY PART of our lives, IN THE POWER OF GOD, NOT to walk around sick and defeated with nothing but comforting words. Like someone said, "a post with the gospel nailed to it".
    Apparently, you think it is better for a person to have an "EVIL HEART OF UNBELIEF", to die with NO HOPE for their healing, than it would be to give them a hope to be healed, that they might live and bring glory to God.
    Sure they might receive their healing and live, but which is better?
    I say what the bible says. It is better to believe, than it is to doubt, or to cause one to doubt.
    If you applied that line of thinking to all the things you have tried to do in your life, you would not have even bother trying, much less, ask God for His assistance or intervention.
    You wouldn't even pray, and why would you, why bother, if you were stripped of all hope of God even hearing your prayer?
    One CANNOT have "faith in God", when ALL faith has been taken from them.
    Tell me, what is faith?
    You might say it is trusting in God or having confidence in Him, or maybe even believing that He will hear your prayer.
    If that is what faith is, then how can a person have ANY FAITH when you tell them that God won't heal them (because first, you yourself CAN'T BELIEVE for their healing), or it MIGHT NOT BE HIS WILL for them to be healed, or "GOD LOVES YOU" (that's a good one to help them believe), or whatever else you concoct? Tell me, how can anyone have any faith, or even hope, for their healing, when you feed them YOUR GOSPEL of no hope?
    Without hope, a person quits before they even start.
    But hey, at least you told them and gave them a hope that when they die, they will go to heaven.
    First off, you don't know that. You don't know if that person will go to heaven or hell, because you don't know their heart, nor do you know if God called them, or if it was His will for them to be born again, or if He created them for destruction. You simply don't know and you can't say you do.
    I have to cut this shorter than I wanted, as I need to get going for now.
    Will continue, when I get the time.
    joaniemarie likes this.

  19. #559
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    August 27th, 2012
    Age
    55
    Posts
    2,249
    Rep Power
    21

    Default Re: word of faith movement

    Quote Originally Posted by PennEd View Post
    Everything you say, and this movement in general, is Scriptural and true, BUT you seem to be completely blinded to the GIGANTIC chasm of truth, that is right in front of you.

    ALL this moving mountains, bountiful living, healings, speaking in tongues, raising people from the dead, etc...! IS CONTINGENT ON THE WILL OF GOD!

    So if it serves the Will of God to give you faith enough to cast a mountain into the sea for HIS purposes, then by golly you can cast that mountain into the sea.

    Jesus' Will would have been to turn stones into bread. He was starving. He had the ability and faith to do it, but by the WHOLE counsel of God, through the Word, He knew it wasn't the Father's Will.

    Jesus wasn't going to ascent to the temptations to do magic tricks like jumping off the Temple or perform some miracle for Herod. Not for freedom, not for glory, not to avoid persecution. ONLY BY THE FATHER'S WILL.

    Jesus was tempted all through the Gospels to gain the kingdom WITHOUT going to the cross.
    Satan showing, and offering Him ALL the Empires throughout time.
    Peter saying he would never allow Jesus to be killed.
    The criminal on the cross telling Him if He were the Christ to get them all off their crosses.

    The point is Jesus NEVER did anything that went against the Will of God. And he KNEW Always what that perfect Will was.

    That is what is so terribly wrong with this doctrine. You DON'T know the perfect Will of God, and how He can and does use afflictions and hardships to bring about That perfect Will.
    Tell me sir, I know God's ways are not our way, nor His thoughts, ours, but have you ever beat one of your children to death to teach them a lesson or to humble them?
    Tell me what good that lesson will have done them, once they are dead.
    If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, HOW MUCH MORE shall your Father, which is in heaven, GIVE GOOD THING TO THEM THAT ASK?
    God say He takes NO pleasure in the death of His people, so if one of His children gets a wasting and debilitating disease unto death, how is that a good thing, and how is that the will of God when He doesn't like it? Not to mention that Jesus bore that curse in His body on the cross.
    As for the will of God, if you don't know what it is to start with, then you CANNOT have ANY faith for whatever it is you are praying for.
    And neither would it matter if it was the will of God for you to cast a mountain into the ocean, still it wouldn't happen without a work and/or word of faith, according to what Jesus said. If God gave you a KNOWING concerning what you said, would come to pass, then indeed, it most certainly will come to pass, according to your faith.
    Knowing is believing and faith is the substance of the thing you already have in your heart, which you know shall be.
    You don't know if it's God's will for whoever to be saved, much less, to be called, and yet you go about as though it is God's will for everyone to be saved because that's what's written, but that's not the "WHOLE COUNCIL" of God, because He said, "as many as are called", and again, "for MANY are called, but FEW are chosen". It does NOT say, EVERYONE IS CALLED.
    So the next time you approach a person with the gospel, you sir, will NOT KNOW what the will of God is for that particular person, which translates to, NOT having the WHOLE COUNCIL OF GOD.
    Does that sound silly?
    Of course it does.
    It sounds the same to me when you try to tell me about the will and whole council of God concerning healing and other things we get through faith.
    But I understand you don't know what faith is or how works.
    Why do I say that?
    Because I read what you said.
    Tell me please, in what or whom is the power of God in? (sorry for the bad grammar)
    The word of God states that Jesus, the blood of Jesus, the word of God, and the Holy Spirit/Ghost is the power of God.
    Now tell me if you would, where is Jesus?
    Where is the word of God?
    Where is the flesh and blood of Jesus?
    Where is the Holy Spirit?
    And what kind of Spirit have we received?
    The "Spirit of power, ..."?
    It is also written that Jesus IS TRUTH, and God's word is truth, and that we have been given a Spirit of Truth, and that Jesus cannot deny Himself. Not of things, but the fact that He is the word of God, and therefore has to do what is written, regardless of what the will of God is.
    And why do I say that?
    Didn't God put both death and life, blessing and cursing before us, and then tell us that both death and life is in the power of our tongue?
    What does that mean?
    James says we can bridle our whole body/flesh by what come out of our mouth.
    The word of God says that Jesus' word was with power, and in the old testament, that He sent His word and healed them and delivered them from all their destructions.
    So back to my original point.
    How are we saved?
    You say, by grace through faith, right?
    Yes, but it also says we are saved by the spoken word of God, or through the word of God. The same word that is the power of God.
    What word is that?
    If it is the word concerning salvation, then it will be the word of faith for salvation. If it is for healing, then that word, will perform the healing.
    IT IS THE WORD OF FAITH ITSELF THAT DOES THE WORK.
    If you bless in faith, the blessing will take and it will do the work.
    If you curse someone with your tongue, the word you sent in faith or believing, will do the work you sent it to do, even as God's word shall not return to Him void, but accomplish that which He pleases, and prosper in the thing where to it was sent, so shall your words do the same, especially if it is based on one of the promises of God.
    Death and life is in the power of YOUR tongue, and that is both the law and will of God.
    What you choose to do with it, is entirely up to you and not subject to what God wants or desires. God does not FORCE His will on anyone.
    Again it is written, "a good man brings forth or causes to manifest, good things, by that which he says or speaks, due to the good deposits/treasures/words in his heart, and an evil or corrupt man brings forth or causes to come to pass in the natural, evil and/or corrupt things, according to the evil/corrupt treasure/words he has deposited in his heart.
    What comes out of the heart?
    The issues or forces of life. That is, that which comes about in your life, both good or evil, blessing or cursing, all come from and are issued out of the heart through the spoken words.
    What is life and health to ALL your flesh?
    And what do the angels hearken to and excel in strength in?
    THE SPOKEN WORD OF GOD.
    THE SPOKE WORD OF FAITH IS WHAT DOES THE WORKS, NOT US.
    AND GOD DOES NOT CONTROL WHAT COMES OUT OF YOUR HEART AND MOUTH, YOU DO.
    joaniemarie likes this.

  20. #560
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    August 27th, 2012
    Age
    55
    Posts
    2,249
    Rep Power
    21

    Default Re: word of faith movement

    Quote Originally Posted by PennEd View Post
    Everything you say, and this movement in general, is Scriptural and true, BUT you seem to be completely blinded to the GIGANTIC chasm of truth, that is right in front of you.

    ALL this moving mountains, bountiful living, healings, speaking in tongues, raising people from the dead, etc...! IS CONTINGENT ON THE WILL OF GOD!

    So if it serves the Will of God to give you faith enough to cast a mountain into the sea for HIS purposes, then by golly you can cast that mountain into the sea.

    Jesus' Will would have been to turn stones into bread. He was starving. He had the ability and faith to do it, but by the WHOLE counsel of God, through the Word, He knew it wasn't the Father's Will.

    Jesus wasn't going to ascent to the temptations to do magic tricks like jumping off the Temple or perform some miracle for Herod. Not for freedom, not for glory, not to avoid persecution. ONLY BY THE FATHER'S WILL.

    Jesus was tempted all through the Gospels to gain the kingdom WITHOUT going to the cross.
    Satan showing, and offering Him ALL the Empires throughout time.
    Peter saying he would never allow Jesus to be killed.
    The criminal on the cross telling Him if He were the Christ to get them all off their crosses.

    The point is Jesus NEVER did anything that went against the Will of God. And he KNEW Always what that perfect Will was.

    That is what is so terribly wrong with this doctrine. You DON'T know the perfect Will of God, and how He can and does use afflictions and hardships to bring about That perfect Will.
    This has to do with the will and whole council of God thing.
    If I told you that what I am about to say is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, but fail to leave out part of the truth, have I told you the whole truth?
    Having said that, when Jesus starts a statement with something like, "I tell you the truth", or "verily/truly/truthfully I say to you", but fails to mention the "WHOLE COUNCIL OF GOD", did He tell us the truth, or did He in fact tell us a partial truth, which is as good as a lie, for that is what the devil does? The devil uses partial truths to propagate a lie, because if it was too preposterous to be believable, then it would not go very far with anyone. So he will twist a truth and mix or combine it with a lie to make it believable.
    God does NOT do that.
    If I tell you that I will buy for you whatever you want in the store, but when you present me with what you want, I tell you, "that's not my will for you to have", so you go and get another thing, HOPING THIS TIME, only the hear the SAME THING.
    At what point are you going to start doubting my word?
    That is basically what many of you have done with the God, concerning His word/promises.
    GOD DOES NOT LIE.
    If He said something is true, then if you ADD to that word, or TAKE AWAY from the same, then YOU are the one MAKING IT A LIE.
    The only reason why you add other scripture verses to certain promises is to make yourselves and others like you, feel better for a lack of answered prayer.
    That lie basically becomes your crutch, pacifier, or banky.
    Mark 11:22-24 is a perfect example.
    It doesn't need any help from any other parts of the bible to make it any more true than it is now. It can stand alone as is, and be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth of God.
    It has its requirements that must be met, and if you fail to perform even the smallest of details, God will do absolutely nothing for you.
    James makes that perfectly clear saying of those who are double-minded or waiver in their believing, "and let not that man think that he should receive ANYTHING of the LORD.
    So to answer one of your statements, I have not overlooked the LIE concerning the will and/or the whole council of God, because the will of God is written after that which is truthfully stated by Jesus, and the whole truth is written in the promises themselves or the few verses preceding or following the promise/law of God.
    If it wasn't there, then it would be a MISLEADING statement/promise, which is otherwise know as being deceitful, which translates to being a lie.
    joaniemarie likes this.

Page 28 of 29 FirstFirst ... 1826272829 LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. FAITH IS A WORK! The Deception of Eph 2:8-10
    By Skinski7 in forum Bible Discussion Forum
    Replies: 106
    Last Post: June 18th, 2012, 07:43 AM
  2. Is Protestant Biblicism evil?
    By Scotth1960 in forum Bible Discussion Forum
    Replies: 61
    Last Post: May 3rd, 2011, 07:04 PM
  3. FROM A CHRISTIAN TO A CATHOLIC
    By JimM1228 in forum Bible Discussion Forum
    Replies: 64
    Last Post: March 2nd, 2011, 05:34 PM
  4. Having faith. How strong is your faith in Christ?
    By Hero777 in forum Bible Discussion Forum
    Replies: 20
    Last Post: March 13th, 2010, 05:46 PM
  5. Replies: 67
    Last Post: June 5th, 2009, 04:47 PM