Who is Babylon the Great Harlot?

[cenallen]

for 1 the context for whole book of revelation is found in Revelation 1:1-3, which is "[/COLOR]things which must shortly take place"[/COLOR] and "Blessed is he who reads and those who hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written in it; for the time is near." The context of Revelation are the things and events that are about to happen in John's near future, which was the persecution of the 1st century saints by both ancient Israel and Rome and about Christ's army coming against an apostate nation and the fulfilling of prophecy spoken by Jesus Himself about the destruction of the temple. Further more, as I suggest, the wood "earth" could and should be translated "Land", because as I stated before Revelation was dealing with a particular region in a particular epic of time. And just because I put most of revelations events in the past, the 1st century, doesn't mean that there isn't any application for Christians to draw from it, for there certainly is!

hi Bookends.
with all due respect, here is where i reach an end point in a strictly PP position which doesn't see an even deeper spiritual fulfillment encompassing all of redemptive history right up to the 2nd Coming.

Revelation does cover the entire period, several times.

though i agree that 'earth' can be translated 'land' (and even in the manner you wish to use it (i assume the 'known world at that time' in c. 1): i.e: the roman world/land, and specifically jerusalem....it can not mean that soley in Revelation as the book does cover all of time right to the Last Day.

the hebrew equivalent is -

אָ֫רֶץ
erets
land

common (1), countries (15), countries and their lands (1), country (44), countryside (1), distance* (3), dust (1), earth (655), earth the ground (1), earth's (1), fail* (1), floor (1), ground (119), land (1581), lands (57), lands have their land (2), open (1), other* (2), piece (1), plateau* (1), region (1), territories (1), wild (1), world (3).

hopefully we can look at the parts of Revelation that do look beyond the 1st century events, as they are certainly there. this book covers the times of Christ (both Advents) and the events therein several times from beginning to end, restarting though viewing from a different perspective for different purposes.


does your PP position see "a" coming of Christ in c 70?

apologies if you've already addressed this and i haven't yet seen it.
because PP alone sounds good and almost works completely, but can not stand fully on its own by simply adding something like, 'but He will come at the end of the age/world" to judge.
i'm reasonably certain you agree (?), so looking forward to details.
cenallen

 

[cenallen]

Rome today is very insignificant.


Yes, this is the application I draw from Revelations. Christians of today will go through tribulations and persecutions from the WORLD during these times until the 2nd coming

these 2 points i look foward to seeing through exegesis. well, hard to prove something is 'insignificant' (a negative).
but perhaps the second point can re-address the first.

i.e: "Christians of today will go through tribulations and persecutions from the WORLD"...do you see this detailed in Revelation in any figures? or do you just draw a logical conclusion (which in itself of course is accurate).

surely this can be done!

 

[cenallen]

Rome has the blood of the saints.

Katy-follower, the text simply does not support this as you've laid out.
it doesn't.
it is Jerusalem who is clearly described in those passages.
what we ought to be asking is why is Rome currently dressed up (in theatrical garb) exactly like the Biblical Harlot, Jerusalem.

 

[WolfInOxHide]

Rome currently dressed up (in theatrical garb) exactly like the Biblical Harlot, Jerusalem.

The pope does wear that babylonian fish hat, and he surely knows it's recognizable as such.
Whatever significance that has.

 

[TheAristocat]

Babylon is confusion. Like all names in scripture, inherently defined.
Remember the revelation (the whole thing, not just the start) is the revelation of Y'Shua, who's name is "Ya will save", the "end times" is the side story.
And this revelation of Y'Shua can only be a revelation if there's something yet unknown.
Peace.

I knew you liked symbolism. I should've guessed that you would've responded to this thread. Interesting post.

 

[Bookends]

Bookends, last evening i read (x2) your work here.
by the Grace of Our Good Lord i've been blessed over the years to read many studies on this subject; have done my own studies and even penned a few.
But i have never seen one quite like this, with so many bases covered (for lack of a better term).
i know the diligence and care involved here in what is clearly a small portion of your very good work.
you are to be commended and listened to, you've faithfully studied and presented the word of the Lord.
amen.

Thank you Cenallen, I give God all the credit. Rightly dividing the word of God is no easy task and I ask God daily to give me discernment to understand His word. It's very important to understand the most of bible wasn't written to us, but written for us. What I mean is for example the Book of Hebrews of Matthew and was directly toward the ethnic Jews, The Corinthians letters were written to them, addressing their issue in their epic of time and same with many old and new testament books. And I believe Revelations was primarily written to 1st Century Christians, for they experienced the birth pains of a new covenant. BUT, we can draw application, light, direction, salvation, correction, teaching from all of them. The letters to the seven churches is a great example of this in Revelations 2 and 3, which should be preached in churches regularly (I feel the universal church has ignored this).

Revelations is an on going work, by no means do I have it all figured out. Sorry to disappoint you.

looking forward to seeing more of what you have been given, as you freely give it.
i have a friend i would like to show this to. do you have a website where this is offered?
if not, may I copy and paste this into an email, linking back here to your user name (my friend will likely wish to see anything else you've written)?

Anything I write you may freely use in anyway you see fit, even those out there who disagree.
I have a free forum site that I use basically to store my work, however much needs to be edited for grammar, spelling, and just plainly leaving out words. May God's be shown through my weakness! I will send you a link in a personal email to you. Not all of my work is my work, however, like everyone else, I do use commentators and other gifted men. The issue is the gift or better put, skill, of discerning what is good what is not. For all of us are capable of error. 1 Thessalonians 5:21, "Test all things; hold fast what is good."

One of my sources is Ed Budd, The end times according to the Bible. This is where I got the 15 reasons why Ancient Jerusalem is the Mystery Babylon the great harlot, although he had 14, I added one. He is hard core Calvinist and attacks dispensationalism with vengeance and many people may not be able to take it. But I love him anyway. I don't agree or should I say comply 100% with everything he says, but even the things I'm up in the air with are worth listening too.

Another source I read and listen too is Hank Hanegraaff president of the Christian Research Institute, many people don't like him and accuse him of wrong doing but I say "He who is without sin among you, let him be the first to throw a stone..." (John 8:7, NASB). I simply love this guy and listen to his broadcasts over the internet. "The Apocalypse Code" by Hank is a good read.

Other sources include Dr. Gary Demar at American Vision, Kenneth Gentry, R.C. Sproul founder of Ligonier Ministries, http://www.preteristsite.com/ (has a lot of sources), and PreteristArchive.com, The Internet's Only Balanced Look at Preterism and Preterist Eschatology. I don't agree or hold fast too every single non-essential issue with all these sources listed (for instance infant baptism, postmillennialism).

though these theological school labels we are forced to attach to our understanding of the scriptures (i.e: partial preterist, amillennial, etc) are useful to some degree, they are surely insufficient when we speak as individuals.

agreed.

[/quote]
with that said - i have some questions i'm hoping you may have already addressed (i haven't been reading yet today) or will have the time to address, just to fill in some of the blanks we end up with after having established the parameters of, say, the PP position as you've done so very well. [/quote]

Ok, but I do have family, a job and I'm going through some #^%* right now, so be patient, I'll try to answer your questions and ask you questions myself.

- what remains to play out, where do you see it written

The second coming of Christ to end all things (the old creation). If you asking what are the events leading up to the 2nd coming? I don't see any future events laid out in Scripture. You can take a position that Revelation as a double prophecy component to it, but you can't prove it. I think I see the world being the new Babylon the great harlot, and we as Christians are to come out of the world (meaning don't make the world your love). But this more of an application I draw from Revelations and other NT passages. All I see is the Glorification of the saints and the unbelievers getting what they want, eternal separation from God.

Revelation 20 --> is all future I think. There may be some snap shots of future events that refer to the victory of Christ and the victory we have in Him. Overall, I see the world continuing on the same way in the last 2000 years until Christ comes, some eras we experience peace, some war, some persecution; Ecclesiastes 3, "There is a time for everything, and a season for every activity under heaven:..."
Matthew 24:36-44 I think gives a clear picture of the future: ( I think verse 35 is the transition verse from what has already happened in the past, to yet future the 2nd Coming. Some PP and FP say Matthew is all past events):
36 “But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, but My Father only. 37 But as the days of Noah were, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. 38 For as in the days before the flood, they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, 39 and did not know until the flood came and took them all away, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. 40 Then two men will be in the field: one will be taken and the other left. 41 Two women will be grinding at the mill: one will be taken and the other left. 42 Watch therefore, for you do not know what hour your Lord is coming. 43 But know this, that if the master of the house had known what hour the thief would come, he would have watched and not allowed his house to be broken into. 44 Therefore you also be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do not expect. For all those dispensationalist, I want to be left behind. For those who remain will inherit the new heavens and earth. This matches up well with the parable of the Wise and foolish virgins (but in the case the foolish virgins are those in the church who have a false faith, a spurious believer). And also the parable of the weeds.

- exactly what scriptures are being fulfilled by the deception of those in the outer court today (the broader covenant professors) and more specifically as it relates to the setting up of what's called the nation of Israel in Palestine today.

I am not sure what you mean by "by the deception of those in the out court today (the broader covenant professors)." You'll have to explain that question.

As for as the nation of Israel, isn't it actually a state? Not sure what the difference would be. They have every right to exist as any other secular nation. But they are not the "chosen" people anymore, Christians are. Any natural Jew who becomes a Christian is then grafted into the cultivated olive tree and this is the only way in which all Israel will be saved, by accepting the message of the gospel (because all Israel, true Israel, are those who are in Christ). The condition lead to our being saved is repentance and a circumcised heart and Leviticus makes this clear about the nation of Israel:

Leviticus 26:40-42
40 ‘But if they confess their iniquity and the iniquity of their fathers, with their unfaithfulness in which they were unfaithful to Me, and that they also have walked contrary to Me,
41 and that I also have walked contrary to them and have brought them into the land of their enemies;
if their uncircumcised hearts are humbled, and they accept their guilt—
42 then I will remember My covenant with Jacob, and My covenant with Isaac and My covenant with Abraham I will remember;
I will remember the land. (NKJV)


The State of Israel as a whole, has never repented. I don't think they will because all nations are secular. How does a nation repent? Only individuals can repent.



The very fact that there are some Christian Zionist out there saddens me. Can you imagine, supporting the gathering of a Jewish people to Israel just to have 2rds of them killed in an armageddon end times scenario? This disturbs me. We should only be about preaching the gospel to them as well as the rest of the world.

i have my own studies and research for comparison, so i'm excited today! your work has been a blessing.

Plan to share them some day? I praise God that he used me to bless you!!! You are a blessing to me as well, and those brothers and sisters who argue against me, for they and you sharpen me.

i do believe the Spirit is very much at work conforming God's people to Christ and His doctrine in these days, as He always has.

There is a lot of false teaching out there tho! Word of faith teachers in particular, JWs, Mormons, Oneness holiness groups, etc etc. I pray that the Lord will bring people out of dispensationalism too.

Lord, cause us all to hear Thee, follow Thee, and bow to Thy Will alone.

in Christ's Holy Name, amen.

Amen!


thank you Bookends
cenallen[/quote]

 

[Bookends]

A woman in Bible prophecy represents a church. The woman in Revelation 17 is a corrupt church. Compare the woman from 12 and 17.
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[/FONT]

Exactly my friend, ancient Israel became the corrupted church, resented by the scribes and the Pharisees!

Matthew 23

13 “But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you shut up the kingdom of heaven against men; for you neither go in yourselves, nor do you allow those who are entering to go in.

14 Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you devour widows’ houses, and for a pretense make long prayers. Therefore you will receive greater condemnation.

15 “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you travel land and sea to win one proselyte, and when he is won, you make him twice as much a son of hell as yourselves.


25 “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you cleanse the outside of the cup and dish, but inside they are full of extortion and self-indulgence.


27 “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you are like whitewashed tombs which indeed appear beautiful outwardly, but inside are full of dead men’s bones and all uncleanness.
28 Even so you also outwardly appear righteous to men, but inside you are full of hypocrisy and lawlessness.

31 “Therefore you are witnesses against yourselves that you are sons of those who murdered the prophets. 32 Fill up, then, the measure of your fathers’ guilt. 33 Serpents, brood of vipers! How can you escape the condemnation of hell? 34 Therefore, indeed, I send you prophets, wise men, and scribes: some of them you will kill and crucify, and some of them you will scourge in your synagogues and persecute from city to city, 35 that on you may come all the righteous blood shed on the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah, son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. 36 Assuredly, I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation.


Revelation 2 and 3 (letters to the 7 churches)


2:9 “I know your works, tribulation, and poverty (but you are rich); and I know the blasphemy of those who say they are Jews and are not, but are a synagogue of Satan.


3:9 Indeed I will make those of the synagogue of Satan, who say they are Jews and are not, but lie—indeed I will make them come and worship before your feet, and to know that I have loved you.


Matthew 12:30
"He who is not with Me is against Me, and he who does not gather with Me scatters abroad." Yes, today application is that any religious establishment or worldly organization, unbelievers, who deny the Lord's Word is of the bond woman, those who truly believe are of the free woman. There are only two groups of people today that eternally matter, the saved and the unsaved.


Galatians 4:21-31
21 Tell me, you who desire to be under the law, do you not hear the law? 22 For it is written that Abraham had two sons: the one by a bondwoman, the other by a freewoman. 23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born according to the flesh, and he of the freewoman through promise, 24 which things are symbolic. For these are the two covenants: the one from Mount Sinai which gives birth to bondage, which is Hagar— 25 for this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia, and corresponds to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children— 26 but the Jerusalem above is free, which is the mother of us all. 27 For it is written:
“Rejoice, O barren,
You who do not bear!
Break forth and shout,
You who are not in labor!
For the desolate has many more children
Than she who has a husband.”[b]

28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are children of promise. 29 But, as he who was born according to the flesh then persecuted him who was born according to the Spirit, even so it is now. 30 Nevertheless what does the Scripture say? “Cast out the bondwoman and her son, for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.”[c] 31So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman but of the free.


I'm looking forward to the heavenly Jerusalem, not the earthly one! How about you?

 

[Bookends]

Straw argument there is no qualifier in the verse or in the context that would suggest the verse means anything other then what it says and it says "of all that were slain upon the earth”
For her to have the blood of all that were slain upon the earth she cannot be constrained by time or location.


Rev 18:24 And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth.

Revelations 18:22-23 is the quilfier:

22 The sound of harpists, musicians, flutists, and trumpeters shall not be heard in you anymore. No craftsman of any craft shall be found in you anymore, and the sound of a millstone shall not be heard in you anymore. 23 The light of a lamp shall not shine in you anymore, and the voice of bridegroom and bride shall not be heard in you anymore.

1. The sound of a millstone was only given to Jerusalem (Israel). Jeremiah 25:10-11
2. The light of a lamp refers to Jerusalem and it's temple as well. Exodus 27:20
3. In the OT, only voice of the bridegroom (Christ) and the bride (Israel) where married together, if you want to place Rev. 18:23b in the 21st century, then are you saying that God will cut off His relationship with today's church. This simply doesn't measure to scripture!

So there is your context, Rev. 18:21-24 can only be talking about 1st century Jerusalem (Israel)

Thanks Doulos, you just gave the 16th reason why Babylon the great, mother of harlots can not be any other thing except 1st century Jerusalem .

 

[Bookends]

A lot of scholars and historians think the Whore is an allegory for Rome, and that the reason a woman was chosen to represent Rome was b/c the goddess Roma was god that was used to embody Rome.

A lot of Scholars think otherwise as well. Dr. R.C Sproul, Dr. Gary Demar, Dr Kenneth Gentry, and etc. Doesn't mean that these or any scholar has a monopoly on Eschatology.

 

[doulos]

Revelations 18:22-23 is the quilfier:

22 The sound of harpists, musicians, flutists, and trumpeters shall not be heard in you anymore. No craftsman of any craft shall be found in you anymore, and the sound of a millstone shall not be heard in you anymore. 23 The light of a lamp shall not shine in you anymore, and the voice of bridegroom and bride shall not be heard in you anymore.

1. The sound of a millstone was only given to Jerusalem (Israel). Jeremiah 25:10-11
2. The light of a lamp refers to Jerusalem and it's temple as well. Exodus 27:20
3. In the OT, only voice of the bridegroom (Christ) and the bride (Israel) where married together, if you want to place Rev. 18:23b in the 21st century, then are you saying that God will cut off His relationship with today's church. This simply doesn't measure to scripture!

So there is your context, Rev. 18:21-24 can only be talking about 1st century Jerusalem (Israel)

Thanks Doulos, you just gave the 16th reason why Babylon the great, mother of harlots can not be any other thing except 1st century Jerusalem .

You can use guesswork theology to justify not believing Rev18:24 as it is written if you choose. That’s why we have free will.
Rev 18:24 And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth.

In order for the verse to be true as written Babylon has to exist from the time Cain murdered Abel until the last person to be slain on this earth is slain. Therefore Babylon cannot be constrained by time or location. Do you believe the verse as written or must you add a nonexistent qualifier so you can forcefit Scripture to your doctrine?

 

[cenallen]

Thank you Cenallen, I give God all the credit. Rightly dividing the word of God is no easy task and I ask God daily to give me discernment to understand His word. It's very important to understand the most of bible wasn't written to us, but written for us. What I mean is for example the Book of Hebrews of Matthew and was directly toward the ethnic Jews, The Corinthians letters were written to them, addressing their issue in their epic of time and same with many old and new testament books. And I believe Revelations was primarily written to 1st Century Christians, for they experienced the birth pains of a new covenant. BUT, we can draw application, light, direction, salvation, correction, teaching from all of them. The letters to the seven churches is a great example of this in Revelations 2 and 3, which should be preached in churches regularly (I feel the universal church has ignored this).

Revelations is an on going work, by no means do I have it all figured out. Sorry to disappoint you.

no disappointment Bookends.
i agree with most of what is above, with the caveat that once we've established the historical fulfillments (assuming we also discern the spiritual content and applications), there still remains the portions of all the books which address the fullness of time between both advents.

certainly by dispensing with dispensationalism we've cut away the branches not bearing any real fruit (i mean doctrine, not people), and the historical realities are easily seen. nevertheless, the Bible isn't silent on the period of time from c 1 to the end, this is all i'm getting at.

Anything I write you may freely use in anyway you see fit, even those out there who disagree.
I have a free forum site that I use basically to store my work, however much needs to be edited for grammar, spelling, and just plainly leaving out words. May God's be shown through my weakness! I will send you a link in a personal email to you.

that's great! please do.
i like straight paths these days.
understood without even mentioning it we don't have all the answers - just preferring to avoid the obvious waste of energy and precious time in millennialist theology (though as you've noted its possible to be sharpened or even edified by examining blatant error - i'm certain you know what i mean. apologetics by default mean examining error).

Not all of my work is my work, however, like everyone else, I do use commentators and other gifted men.

Bookends, i'd be concerned if you didn't.

The issue is the gift or better put, skill, of discerning what is good what is not. For all of us are capable of error. 1 Thessalonians 5:21, "Test all things; hold fast what is good."

One of my sources is Ed Budd, The end times according to the Bible. This is where I got the 15 reasons why Ancient Jerusalem is the Mystery Babylon the great harlot, although he had 14, I added one. He is hard core Calvinist and attacks dispensationalism with vengeance and many people may not be able to take it. But I love him anyway. I don't agree or should I say comply 100% with everything he says, but even the things I'm up in the air with are worth listening too.

Another source I read and listen too is Hank Hanegraaff president of the Christian Research Institute, many people don't like him and accuse him of wrong doing but I say "He who is without sin among you, let him be the first to throw a stone..." (John 8:7, NASB). I simply love this guy and listen to his broadcasts over the internet. "The Apocalypse Code" by Hank is a good read.

Other sources include Dr. Gary Demar at American Vision, Kenneth Gentry, R.C. Sproul founder of Ligonier Ministries, http://www.preteristsite.com/ (has a lot of sources), and PreteristArchive.com, The Internet's Only Balanced Look at Preterism and Preterist Eschatology. I don't agree or hold fast too every single non-essential issue with all these sources listed (for instance infant baptism, postmillennialism).

very good. agree.
i'm familiar with most of the names you listed. not very much so, but somewhat.
as with millennialism, i'm sure to be guarded when sourcing preterism (even strictly pp) also.
one is looking entirely back while the other is looking entirely forward.

Ok, but I do have family, a job and I'm going through some #^%* right now, so be patient, I'll try to answer your questions and ask you questions myself.

sounds good.
i'm very fortunate to be 'retired' for some time. i used to think retired was something one 'was'. but wonderfully, its something one 'does'!
i'll look for a private message and check your forum. perhaps communication can be simple and at your leisure.
in the meantime, focusing on the family is most important.

The second coming of Christ to end all things (the old creation). If you asking what are the events leading up to the 2nd coming? I don't see any future events laid out in Scripture. You can take a position that Revelation as a double prophecy component to it, but you can't prove it. I think I see the world being the new Babylon the great harlot, and we as Christians are to come out of the world (meaning don't make the world your love). But this more of an application I draw from Revelations and other NT passages. All I see is the Glorification of the saints and the unbelievers getting what they want, eternal separation from God.

agree, broadly, regarding dispensations and all that silliness, there remains only the Second Coming.
but the scriptures do address all of history including our future, however obliquely or in symbols.

Revelation 20 --> is all future I think.

??
i read it as covering the messianic age from Advent 1 to 2
how can pp see rev 20 as future? i am likely misunderstanding.

There may be some snap shots of future events that refer to the victory of Christ and the victory we have in Him. Overall, I see the world continuing on the same way in the last 2000 years until Christ comes, some eras we experience peace, some war, some persecution; Ecclesiastes 3, "There is a time for everything, and a season for every activity under heaven:..."
Matthew 24:36-44 I think gives a clear picture of the future: ( I think verse 35 is the transition verse from what has already happened in the past, to yet future the 2nd Coming. Some PP and FP say Matthew is all past events):
36 “But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, but My Father only. 37 But as the days of Noah were, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. 38 For as in the days before the flood, they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, 39 and did not know until the flood came and took them all away, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. 40 Then two men will be in the field: one will be taken and the other left. 41 Two women will be grinding at the mill: one will be taken and the other left. 42 Watch therefore, for you do not know what hour your Lord is coming. 43 But know this, that if the master of the house had known what hour the thief would come, he would have watched and not allowed his house to be broken into. 44 Therefore you also be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do not expect.

i understand.
as mentioned elsewhere, this is the area i'm at now - attempting to zero in on those recapitulations which extend over the entire period (a thousand years) to the end, as well as recapping all the year of prior learning to more understand the figures and symbols. there's so much in there!!

i'm dissatisfied with 'nearly everything happened in c 1, just Advent 2 remains'. its true in itself and is at this time my default position, yet the Bible is not silent on the period between the advents, including our future (i know you've just said this yourself).

though the whole Word is astounding in its scope - nothing touches the glory of Christ's Work, nothing at all, the simple but amazing gospel, yes?
the intricacies of the scriptures are incredible. just scratching the surface leaves me awestruck. not enough hours in a day.
the patterns, depth and unity of it all is one thing - but when Jesus appears in person in the New Testament its just a whole other matter. everything else is completely eclipsed. no wonder we need preparation for the resurrection!!

who can grasp all these things??! i'm left breathless sometimes.

For all those dispensationalist, I want to be left behind.

ilaughing at this, very much.

I am not sure what you mean by "by the deception of those in the out court today (the broader covenant professors)." You'll have to explain that question.

well, part of being conformed to Christ, the 'temple', is being conformed corrected and disciplined by the scriptures through the power of the Spirit. using the OT figure of the physical temple, so scripture reveals there are those who are near 'the Temple' (Christ seated in the heavens, heavenly Mt Zion) and partake of the grace and blessings of it (Him, as represented by the active church), yet like physical covenant israel (a corporate body) they were not all the israel of God.

what i mean to say is we're warned to leave judging (measuring) the world to God, but we are to be sure we in the church (measure ourselves and our teachers etc) and conform to God's requirements for the assembly. this is not a salvation by works idea but rather a combination of continually working to keep/guard/maintain the 'commandments' (Gods whole counsel in the scriptures - most importantly the GOSPEL of Christ crucified and raised) and purging out the false doctrine. we have to do this as individuals and as a body.

for the health of the church proper, and for the genuine salvation of those who draw near - how can they be saved except they hear? and how can they hear except the Lord's doctrines are kept and guarded that they may be preached as He gave them, without spot or wrinkle.

how can we be conformed regarding sin if the Law is not handled properly? how can we be assured and filled with awe and praise if the Gospel is not handled properly? there's so much going on that doesn't belong in the Lords house, the church. far too much idolatry (our own ideas). i don't believe there is "one" ("the") denomination. its by the purity of the doctrine, isn't it?

there's no question there are groups and individuals attached to associated with the church, the Lord's people that hold thoroughly heretical notions, and there are others who are actually malevolent enemies disguised as christians. my question was do we see them addressed in scripture...and what do we do about it.

As for as the nation of Israel, isn't it actually a state? Not sure what the difference would be. They have every right to exist as any other secular nation. But they are not the "chosen" people anymore, Christians are. Any natural Jew who becomes a Christian is then grafted into the cultivated olive tree and this is the only way in which all Israel will be saved, by accepting the message of the gospel (because all Israel, true Israel, are those who are in Christ). The condition lead to our being saved is repentance and a circumcised heart and Leviticus makes this clear about the nation of Israel:

yes, i understand. i don't think the people today currently identifying as jews have any connection at all to ancient israel (with a very few possible exceptions - this can not be entirely ruled out, though it is moot, as salvation is not by any means through physical descent).

my question was more addressing do we see in the scriptures a state/entity rising in old jerusalem (palestine/land of israel etc) far in the future from John and c 1? its happening, and it surely is not inconsequential. is it addressed in prophecy (i don't mean in the dispensationalist's view).

The State of Israel as a whole, has never repented. I don't think they will because all nations are secular. How does a nation repent? Only individuals can repent.

got it.
it was the phenomenon of the state appearing i was asking about - we can't ignore it - its there. now the question is, is it seen in the scriptures apart from the fabrication of dispensationalism.
i'll go further and ask how dispensationalism came about - by intent or accident?

do you address the Revelation 17:11 at your forum?

The very fact that there are some Christian Zionist out there saddens me. Can you imagine, supporting the gathering of a Jewish people to Israel just to have 2rds of them killed in an armageddon end times scenario? This disturbs me.

and me as well.
which is what i'm trying to unpack - is this written to go down this way?
it surely must be - and it is, i believe.

Plan to share them some day?

surely. perhaps when you forward a link to your site we can talk more.

There is a lot of false teaching out there tho! Word of faith teachers in particular, JWs, Mormons, Oneness holiness groups, etc etc. I pray that the Lord will bring people out of dispensationalism too.

this is the spiritual outer court i mentioned.

thanks for the time and energy Bookends. and the resources.
cenallen.

 

[cenallen]

The pope does wear that babylonian fish hat, and he surely knows it's recognizable as such.
Whatever significance that has.

is he checking the rabbi's pulse?

 

[cenallen]

You can use guesswork theology to justify not believing Rev18:24 as it is written if you choose. That’s why we have free will.
Rev 18:24 And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth.

In order for the verse to be true as written Babylon has to exist from the time Cain murdered Abel until the last person to be slain on this earth is slain. Therefore Babylon cannot be constrained by time or location. Do you believe the verse as written or must you add a nonexistent qualifier so you can forcefit Scripture to your doctrine?

i think you are on to something here (not millennialism) - the simple question being not was the historical fulfillment c 1 jerusalem, for it was. rather, did the very idolatrous religion which received the judgment of 70ad vanish?
or has it risen to power one last time? (this time globally)

 

[1still_waters]

Thanks for posting this. Good to see another orthodox preterist on the forum.

I've been muddling through Revelation trying to figure out the players. This Babylon one is confusing me too.

I haven't read your entire post. Just wanted to take the time to say thanks for posting. I'll look it over.

Currently I'm going through a Ken Gentry series on Revelation and he asserts Jerusalem is Babylon too. He makes a good case, BUT I don't quite feel right saying both "GREAT CITY" references are Jerusalem. In my gut it feels like a sleight of hand attempt.

Only because in Rev 17 it says of Babylon...

15 And he *said to me, “The waters which you saw where the harlot sits, are peoples and multitudes and nations and tongues. 16 And the ten horns which you saw, and the beast, these will hate the harlot and will make her desolate and naked, and will eat her flesh and will burn her up with fire. 17 For God has put it in their hearts to execute His purpose [j]by having a common purpose, and by giving their kingdom to the beast, until the words of God will be fulfilled. 18 The woman whom you saw is the great city, which [k]reigns over the kings of the earth.”

Here Babylon described as sitting on many waters, and reigning over the kings of the Earth. It seems like a stretch to say that is Jerusalem. At the time of the writing, it was Rome that sat on near water and ruled over the kings of the Earth.

 

[Bookends]

Rome is the whore of Babylon that rides the beast.

The Beast and the woman in Rev. 17-18 are depicted as being at war with each other. Revelation 17:16, "16 And the ten horns which you saw on the beast, these will hate the harlot, make her desolate and naked, eat her flesh and burn her with fire."

Revelation 11:7-8, "7 When they finish their testimony, the beast (Roman empire) that ascends out of the bottomless pit will make war against them, overcome them, and kill them. 8 And their dead bodies will lie in the street of the great city which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified (Jerusalem)."

cross-references Ezekiel 16:37 and 39

That's like saying NY is at war with the US, or the revived Beast (Rome) is at war with the Catholic Church. It doesn't make any sense. Remember Jesus said a house divided against itself can not stand.

The true church were persecuted by the Jews and Romans. Remember it was the Roman empire that was in power. They could not get the true church to submit to Roman authority, their Roman religion. Many died as martyrs for the truth. Rome has the blood of the saints.

All of the disciples where killed before 70AD except John, Acts 6 onward describes how the Jewish religious zealot initiated the persecution. Yes, the Roman Emperors (mostly Nero) did kill the saints. Find me some evidences where many martyrs took place after Nero, by the emperors (you'll find only a few). And yes, the Catholic Church did murder people for their rebellion. However, today's saints are still being martyred and it's not the Catholic Church doing it. John Calvin also had people martyred for their doctrinal beliefs. Many people have died by the hands of people claiming to bear the name of Christ (including our nation).

Yes, the Jews wanted Jesus crucified. Pilate did not want the blood on his hands so handed the decision over to the Jews. However, look at what happened to Christians at the hands of the Romans. Christians would not submit to any pope or Roman authority. The early church would meet in each other's homes to avoid persecution from the Romans. Rome wanted political, religious and monetary control over the people, a "one world system" where they could control everyone.

This was most prevalent during the 1st century, but still continues today but not by Rome or the Catholic Church.

Not to mention Hitler was a Catholic and the Jesuits were involved with the Holocaust of the Jews.

Are you going to demonize a religious organization for the actions of this man? Should all Catholics then and today be labeled the Beast or Harlot for the actions of a few? There are some Catholics that do very good work for the Lord, ever watch the movie "Joshua"? You should!

The Babylonian mystery religion was revived by Rome. The Roman Catholic church is Babylonian, it came from Babylon. There is a ton of evidence to prove this.

I could throw a lot of scripture at you but how much time does one have to post it all? Regardless, you seem very stuck on your own opinion so what difference would anything I post make? I would just be wasting an hour of my time posting it.

Awww, come on, don't be a cop out. We are all stuck on our own opinions, but the bible has final authority. I'd like you to try to convince me with scripture and historical evidence in a logical and respectful manner.

Remember, the enemy goes after the children of God. Israel are repeatedly attacked because they are God's chosen people (though they are not yet saved), as are us saved gentiles also persecuted because we are God's children. We are grafted in.

Romans 9:6-7
6 But it is not that the word of God has taken no effect. For they are not all Israel who are of Israel, 7 nor are they all children because they are the seed of Abraham; but, “In Isaac your seed shall be called.” Do you know what this means?

Also, the branches of the cultivated olive tree that you alluded to above, the original branches broken off is natural Israel (non-converted Jews), and wild branches grafted in are gentiles, the only way the Jews can become children of God again is by being graft back it through repentance and faith in Jesus Christ, He is the one tree. Romans 11:19-20, 19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off that I might be grafted in.” 20 Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. and 23 And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again." There is no special plan of salvation to the Jew other then Jesus Christ!

I was talking about Babylon. Paganism did not exist before Babylon, it all started there. Nimrod was first king on earth, rebelled against God and started the paganism that began in Babylon. From there paganism grew. Babylon was conquered and then eventually Rome revived the pagan practices which spread everywhere. This then gave birth to the Catholic church. The true Church (not Rome) would not submit to Roman authority and many were killed. Emperor Constantine took the paganism and merged Christianity with it, trying to get favor from Christians as well as Pagans. Rome was responsible for reviving the paganism that came from Babylon. This paganism spread.

Poppycock! just read the NT books (Corinthians in particular) and letters to the churches in Rev. 2 and 3, it didn't take them long to become corrupted and that's before the Catholic church came on the scene (even if you hold to the late date of Revelation).

Yet look at their growth and current standing. Do you not know the history of the Jesuits? They've been a real scheming bunch. They are even in the government now. The pope is leader of ecumenical movement, trying to bring all religions together as one, under the leadership of Rome.

Have you been listening to dooms day prophecy preachers?

The Roman church is the counterfeit of Christianity. "For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ. And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.” (2 Cor 11:13-15) (Satan has a church and it will have a holy appearance when it's actually an abomination)

Satan's church are those who don't yet belong to Christ, by your words you are judging every Catholic's heart and condemning them to Hell. I am sure that some Catholics are saved, but yet deceived in doctrine, just like many other protestant-baptist, reformed etc. churches. Satan comes to kill, steal and destroy. Satan will take anybody he can, even if they worship Satan themselves cause that's just one more he can take away from future salvation (of course God is in control over all that in ways I don't understand).

You emphasize 'world' to me as if I believe the persecution to only come from one specific group. Persecution is happening now in the world to believers. The enemy persecutes the saints and the non believers are under the influence of the enemy. Believers are trying to live godly lives in an ungodly world. God does say multiple times that we are spared the coming 7 year tribulation though because of our perseverance. However, Israel will be left to go through the tribulation.

Then stop bashing the Catholic Church! Where does God say we are going to be spared a special 7 year tribulation?

Mark 2:22: "And no one puts new wine into old wineskins; or else the new wine bursts the wineskins, the wine is spilled, and the wineskins are ruined. But new wine must be put into new wineskins.”

Right, we nor the Jews are going back to old covenant sacrifices. By saying that Christ is coming back to set up an earthly temple, resorting to earthly sacrifices of animals is putting new wine into old wineskins.

Interesting scripture here mentions about establishing a New Covenant, a New Testament church. The Jews were unable to receive Jesus' corrections required so they were about to be made null and void.

Who do you think the 1st Century Christians were mostly composed of? Jews. The old Covenant system of worship, the shadows and types, the ceremonial laws were made null and void. God saved OT saints back then the same way he saves us. Romans 4: 1-4," What then shall we say that Abraham our father has found according to the flesh? 2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” 4 Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt."

(Jeremiah 31:31-34)

God hasn't turned His back on Israel (Romans 11 says their rejection not total or final). They are still His chosen people, they've just been temporarily hardened - Romans 11:25: "For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in"

Romans 11:21: "For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either" - we must not boast that we were grafted in and Israel failed.

Although the Jews deny Jesus as their Messiah, there are other religions out there that deny the sufficiency of His sacrifice also, so they are in the same boat, although sad for God as they are His chosen people and they denied Christ.

The apostle John says that anyone to denies Christ is the anti-christ. Do you think I'm boasting? Am I saying "ha ha I'm saved and your not?" All I'm saying is all are saved through Christ, doesn't matter what nationality you belong too.

Hey, we don't see eye to eye, but I love yah anyway. May God's peace and love be yours.

 

[Bookends]

Thanks for posting this. Good to see another orthodox preterist on the forum.

I've been muddling through Revelation trying to figure out the players. This Babylon one is confusing me too.

I haven't read your entire post. Just wanted to take the time to say thanks for posting. I'll look it over.

Currently I'm going through a Ken Gentry series on Revelation and he asserts Jerusalem is Babylon too. He makes a good case, BUT I don't quite feel right saying both "GREAT CITY" references are Jerusalem. In my gut it feels like a sleight of hand attempt.

Only because in Rev 17 it says of Babylon...

15 And he *said to me, “The waters which you saw where the harlot sits, are peoples and multitudes and nations and tongues. 16 And the ten horns which you saw, and the beast, these will hate the harlot and will make her desolate and naked, and will eat her flesh and will burn her up with fire. 17 For God has put it in their hearts to execute His purpose [j]by having a common purpose, and by giving their kingdom to the beast, until the words of God will be fulfilled. 18 The woman whom you saw is the great city, which [k]reigns over the kings of the earth.”

Here Babylon described as sitting on many waters, and reigning over the kings of the Earth. It seems like a stretch to say that is Jerusalem. At the time of the writing, it was Rome that sat on near water and ruled over the kings of the Earth.

Hi 1still,

Don't forget the Revelation was given to John by an angel who signified it (σημαίν&#969 "to give a sign" and John draws from many images from the OT. BTW was the apostle Peter in Babylon? Just something to think about.

1 Peter 5:12-14
12 By Silvanus, our faithful brother as I consider him, I have written to you briefly, exhorting and testifying that this is the true grace of God in which you stand.
13 She who is in Babylon, elect together with you, greets you; and so does Mark my son. 14 Greet one another with a kiss of love.
Peace to you all who are in Christ Jesus. Amen.


I think Ken Gentry is a postmillennialist, which I'm not currently. Still he is a good resource for the most part. May God give you discernment in your studies!

 

[Bookends]

is he checking the rabbi's pulse?

They are wearing yellow and black, what does that mean? I'm sure there is some special revelation regarding this!

 

[Bookends]

does your PP position see "a" coming of Christ in c 70?

Only one in judgment, not a physical manifestation of Christ.

apologies if you've already addressed this and i haven't yet seen it.
because PP alone sounds good and almost works completely, but can not stand fully on its own by simply adding something like, 'but He will come at the end of the age/world" to judge.
i'm reasonably certain you agree (?), so looking forward to details.
cenallen

I think all systems of eschatology have errors. I believe Jesus will come back again at the end of this age/world, to judge, both the wicked and the saints. The wicked get what they wanted and deserve in total separation from God ( I don't know exactly what that entails for total darkness and flame can't exist at the same time, at least from my human understanding). The saints will get their reward and live in the new heavenly state, the eternal state. Hope this answers your question?

 

[Bookends]

You can use guesswork theology to justify not believing Rev18:24 as it is written if you choose. That’s why we have free will.
Rev 18:24 And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth.

In order for the verse to be true as written Babylon has to exist from the time Cain murdered Abel until the last person to be slain on this earth is slain. Therefore Babylon cannot be constrained by time or location. Do you believe the verse as written or must you add a nonexistent qualifier so you can forcefit Scripture to your doctrine?

This the problem interpreting scripture with a strictly wooden literal system and pulling your one verse out of its context and making it mean something it doesn't. We'll just have to agree to disagree. God peace and love you brother.

 

[Bookends]

these 2 points i look foward to seeing through exegesis. well, hard to prove something is 'insignificant' (a negative).
but perhaps the second point can re-address the first.

I just don't see Rome or the Catholic Church as a power house to bring world tribulation to the saints. But I can't say it won't happen in the future. I think tribulation or persecution from all bodies of organizations and institutions will increase or fluctuate over time, but that's my speculation.

i.e: "Christians of today will go through tribulations and persecutions from the WORLD"...do you see this detailed in Revelation in any figures? or do you just draw a logical conclusion (which in itself of course is accurate).

surely this can be done!

I see it in other NT scriptures. Do I see in Revelation in any figures? it's possible, where it applies to 1st century Christians, it may also applies to us. But it doesn't have too. You'd have to give a me a scripture or passage and ask whether it applies to all Christians or just the 1st Century since Revelation is pack with a lot of symbolism and details, it's just hard make comment without a frame of reference.