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well, fear is the beginning of wisdom.
for me, heck yeah, I fear God because I have seen Him at work! when you see someone utterly destroyed, to the point that even they know that it is from God but still will not repent, you learn real fast to understand that what you deserve far more than they got! (their failed suicide was what finally brought them back face to face with God)
some come to Jesus because they understand their utter failure as human beings, some because their sin life has destroyed themselves or those they loved, some because of "fire" insurance, one guy I met at a church I visited - because he thought Christians were better people than those he knew.
but Heaven is not about the reason we come to Jesus for salvation, it is the quality and quantity of what we do with what He gives us that matters. Obedience is desired above all else. he tells you move a mountain, you better move a mountain. He tells you to witness to disgusting bum on the bus, guess what you need to do. neither is more important or more impossible than the other, from God's perspective.
as far as Heaven goes, there is only one way in - Jesus. God has to judge the basis of your "fire insurance" faith; was it Jesus or something else? then once past this test, for some reason, those acts of faith, those acts of obedience are what we will be judged against and rewarded for in Heaven.
for me, heck yeah, I fear God because I have seen Him at work! when you see someone utterly destroyed, to the point that even they know that it is from God but still will not repent, you learn real fast to understand that what you deserve far more than they got! (their failed suicide was what finally brought them back face to face with God)
some come to Jesus because they understand their utter failure as human beings, some because their sin life has destroyed themselves or those they loved, some because of "fire" insurance, one guy I met at a church I visited - because he thought Christians were better people than those he knew.
but Heaven is not about the reason we come to Jesus for salvation, it is the quality and quantity of what we do with what He gives us that matters. Obedience is desired above all else. he tells you move a mountain, you better move a mountain. He tells you to witness to disgusting bum on the bus, guess what you need to do. neither is more important or more impossible than the other, from God's perspective.
as far as Heaven goes, there is only one way in - Jesus. God has to judge the basis of your "fire insurance" faith; was it Jesus or something else? then once past this test, for some reason, those acts of faith, those acts of obedience are what we will be judged against and rewarded for in Heaven.
M
this is a quote from a female muslim scholar -- I think it says it best.
If I obey God because I fear hell, then give me hell. If I obey God because I desire heaven then deny me heaven. Let me obey God because He is worthy.
you know even if you believe in God because you fear hell the fact is you believe --- God loves His children always.
If I obey God because I fear hell, then give me hell. If I obey God because I desire heaven then deny me heaven. Let me obey God because He is worthy.
you know even if you believe in God because you fear hell the fact is you believe --- God loves His children always.
P
When my children were very small, they obeyed their dad and me out of fear of the consequences of disobedience.
As they grew older, they learned that what we asked them to do (or not do) was from a real love for them, and because we knew and desired what was best for them. (as much as human parents can)
Could it be that this might illustrate our relationship with Christ (for some, at least)? Chip quoted Psalm 111:10: "The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom..." For the redeemed, it might begin that way (with fear of hell), and as they grow, they learn of God's pure love for them and it changes their focus. If they die before this can happen...will the Lord remit their sins back to them? How could that even happen?
Really just asking (more) questions here.
As they grew older, they learned that what we asked them to do (or not do) was from a real love for them, and because we knew and desired what was best for them. (as much as human parents can)
Could it be that this might illustrate our relationship with Christ (for some, at least)? Chip quoted Psalm 111:10: "The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom..." For the redeemed, it might begin that way (with fear of hell), and as they grow, they learn of God's pure love for them and it changes their focus. If they die before this can happen...will the Lord remit their sins back to them? How could that even happen?
Really just asking (more) questions here.
[FONT="]I agree. God wants a sincere seeker and follower, one that truly loves Him and seeks Him as a savior. When we are spiritually mature, our serving God will stem from genuine love and reverence for Him rather than mere compliance to the rule. Jesus said “If you love me, keep my commandments”.[/FONT]
Sometimes I wonder if people will still serve God if there was no Hell. Would they continuing serving God out of love? I find that people who are only afraid of the consequence tend not to follow the rules when the punishment is taken away. For example a little child may choose to obey their parents just because they don't want timeout or they are afraid of the naughty chair, but when the parent removes the naughty chair or say they are in grandma's house without a naughty chair, they become disobedient. When they grow older and mature, they will choose obey their parents out of respect, value for their parents' advice, and recognition of their parents love and the fact that their parents have their best interest at heart for implementing those rules.
This discussion reminded me of this passage and I'd appreciate if someone can to shed some light into it: Matthew 10:28- And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him [God] which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. What kind of fear is this passage referring to? Is it suggesting that we should be afraid of God or is it suggesting a godly fear out of reverence? Also if someone is says they are serving God only because they are afraid of going to Hell, isn't it kind of like they are trying to earn their way to Heaven seeing that Ephesians 2:8-9 says "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: not of works, lest any man should boast"?
Sometimes I wonder if people will still serve God if there was no Hell. Would they continuing serving God out of love? I find that people who are only afraid of the consequence tend not to follow the rules when the punishment is taken away. For example a little child may choose to obey their parents just because they don't want timeout or they are afraid of the naughty chair, but when the parent removes the naughty chair or say they are in grandma's house without a naughty chair, they become disobedient. When they grow older and mature, they will choose obey their parents out of respect, value for their parents' advice, and recognition of their parents love and the fact that their parents have their best interest at heart for implementing those rules.
This discussion reminded me of this passage and I'd appreciate if someone can to shed some light into it: Matthew 10:28- And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him [God] which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. What kind of fear is this passage referring to? Is it suggesting that we should be afraid of God or is it suggesting a godly fear out of reverence? Also if someone is says they are serving God only because they are afraid of going to Hell, isn't it kind of like they are trying to earn their way to Heaven seeing that Ephesians 2:8-9 says "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: not of works, lest any man should boast"?
Salvation is much more than what you may think it is, the big question we must ask ourselves is what does a real conversion look like, and why must we endure to the end to be saved as Jesus made clear!
Either you are one or the other, no such things as a sinning saint! A saint is walking in the present tense with Christ, being obedient, pure in heart and deed, and listening to His voice, then they follow Him on the narrow road. Luke 9-23-24.
Luke 9:23 And He said to all, If anyone desires to come after Me, let him deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow Me.
Luke 9:24 For whoever will save his life shall lose it, but whoever will lose his life for My sake, he shall save it.
A real saint as described in the Bible has crucified his flesh with Christ, Galatians 2-20,
Gal 2:20 I have been crucified with Christ, and I live; yet no longer I, but Christ lives in me. And that life I now live in the flesh, I live by faith(obedience) toward the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself on my behalf.
Once and for all, hence I have been crucified, and thus they now walk in newness of life, 2 Corinthians 5-17.
2Co 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold all things are become new.
Cleansed and purified of all willful sin, through a real repentance and faith. 2 Corinthians 7-10-11.
2Co 7:10 For the grief according to God works repentance to salvation, not to be regretted, but the grief of the world works out death.
2Co 7:11 For behold this same thing (you being grieved according to God); how much it worked out earnestness in you; but also defense; but also indignation; but also fear; but also desire; but also zeal; but also vengeance! In everything you approved yourselves to be clear (pure) in the matter.
They must remain diligent and faithful to the truth, obey from the heart, and keep themselves undefiled from the world and its false ways! 1 John 2-15-17.
1Jn 2:15 Do not love the world, nor the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him,
1Jn 2:16 because all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.
1Jn 2:17 And the world passes away, and the lust of it, but he who does the will of God abides forever.
You are not a saint without actually doing the works of righteousness(doing what is right) Jesus didn’t obey for you, but made a way, through His bold example for us to follow, He said His sheep follow Him and His steps and ways, which leads to eternal life. But sadly most churches teaches Jesus did it all for them, He took their place, and a real Christian is actually a sinner, but called a saint because they believe in Jesus!
Rom 8:4 So that the righteousness of the Law might be fulfilled in us,who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.
It’s simple, obedience matters, those who count the cost and endure to the end will inherit eternal life, as you walk in the spirit, and not the flesh, walking as Jesus walked, in sincerity, purity and love!
A real saint will not be perfect as some think perfection is( as perfect as God) BUT will be living the crucified life, that only comes through repentance and faith both proven by deeds! And these deeds include obeying Jesus from the heart, abstaining from all appearances of evil, departing from iniquity, counting the cost, and most of all, crucifying your flesh with Christ once and for all, not because He did it for you, but because He commands you to do it, and a real saint will never argue in favor of sin!
Gal 5:24 But those belonging to Christ have crucified the fleshwith its passions and lusts.
Gal 5:25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.
Tommy 8-18-12
Many will say this way is too difficult, and will come up with many excuses why they cant obey and follow Jeusus on the narrow road, but Jesus made it perfectly clear when He said, strive to enter the narrow gate, where the professing church says, its done for you, you cannot obey God, and to fear Him isn't important, just believe all is done, you do nothing but trust it has been done for you! Does this sound like the narrow way Jesus preached in the word?
Ecc 12:13 Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.
Ecc 12:14 For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.
A Saint or an aint?
Joh 10:27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow(obey) Me.
Either you are one or the other, no such things as a sinning saint! A saint is walking in the present tense with Christ, being obedient, pure in heart and deed, and listening to His voice, then they follow Him on the narrow road. Luke 9-23-24.
Luke 9:23 And He said to all, If anyone desires to come after Me, let him deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow Me.
Luke 9:24 For whoever will save his life shall lose it, but whoever will lose his life for My sake, he shall save it.
A real saint as described in the Bible has crucified his flesh with Christ, Galatians 2-20,
Gal 2:20 I have been crucified with Christ, and I live; yet no longer I, but Christ lives in me. And that life I now live in the flesh, I live by faith(obedience) toward the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself on my behalf.
Once and for all, hence I have been crucified, and thus they now walk in newness of life, 2 Corinthians 5-17.
2Co 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold all things are become new.
Cleansed and purified of all willful sin, through a real repentance and faith. 2 Corinthians 7-10-11.
2Co 7:10 For the grief according to God works repentance to salvation, not to be regretted, but the grief of the world works out death.
2Co 7:11 For behold this same thing (you being grieved according to God); how much it worked out earnestness in you; but also defense; but also indignation; but also fear; but also desire; but also zeal; but also vengeance! In everything you approved yourselves to be clear (pure) in the matter.
They must remain diligent and faithful to the truth, obey from the heart, and keep themselves undefiled from the world and its false ways! 1 John 2-15-17.
1Jn 2:15 Do not love the world, nor the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him,
1Jn 2:16 because all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.
1Jn 2:17 And the world passes away, and the lust of it, but he who does the will of God abides forever.
You are not a saint without actually doing the works of righteousness(doing what is right) Jesus didn’t obey for you, but made a way, through His bold example for us to follow, He said His sheep follow Him and His steps and ways, which leads to eternal life. But sadly most churches teaches Jesus did it all for them, He took their place, and a real Christian is actually a sinner, but called a saint because they believe in Jesus!
Rom 8:4 So that the righteousness of the Law might be fulfilled in us,who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.
It’s simple, obedience matters, those who count the cost and endure to the end will inherit eternal life, as you walk in the spirit, and not the flesh, walking as Jesus walked, in sincerity, purity and love!
A real saint will not be perfect as some think perfection is( as perfect as God) BUT will be living the crucified life, that only comes through repentance and faith both proven by deeds! And these deeds include obeying Jesus from the heart, abstaining from all appearances of evil, departing from iniquity, counting the cost, and most of all, crucifying your flesh with Christ once and for all, not because He did it for you, but because He commands you to do it, and a real saint will never argue in favor of sin!
Gal 5:24 But those belonging to Christ have crucified the fleshwith its passions and lusts.
Gal 5:25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.
Tommy 8-18-12
Many will say this way is too difficult, and will come up with many excuses why they cant obey and follow Jeusus on the narrow road, but Jesus made it perfectly clear when He said, strive to enter the narrow gate, where the professing church says, its done for you, you cannot obey God, and to fear Him isn't important, just believe all is done, you do nothing but trust it has been done for you! Does this sound like the narrow way Jesus preached in the word?
Ecc 12:13 Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.
Ecc 12:14 For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.
The fear of YHWH is the beginning of wisdom. Not just fear in general.
The fear of "hell" is misdirection. YHWH is not a torture artist, though He could be if He were not righteous and Set Apart. Fear only YHWH who is able to destroy both body and soul. Doesn't say it's His will. His will is that all men should come to repentance. "Let Your will come to pass" we pray.
We were told to pray this in vain every time we pray? Hardly. It will come to pass.
We should fear the fact that He is both able, and in complete control of Himself. THAT, the magnitude of His love, patience, and righteousness is what's scary. The fact that we will be subjected to whatever is necessary to clean our hearts is scary. THAT is why "the fear of YHWH is clean."
I believe fear of "hell" gets your attention, but salvation comes from embracing love, manifested as repentance. Remember, "hell" is an old english word for "putting in the ground", the gigantic modern definition is constructed by tradition and doctrine, and continually expanded by the pulpit and the media.
See the bum on the bus as a beautiful creation of His, ravaged by the society we have propagated, who needs hope. If we have the chance to share good news and do not, he will still come to repentance but his defilement in the meantime is then on our hands.
Threatening eternal torment is an abomination, which instead of drawing one properly to YHWH, causes desolation and errant fear in that person's heart, and in their perception of YHWH.
It stands in many temples. Flee!
Peace.
The fear of "hell" is misdirection. YHWH is not a torture artist, though He could be if He were not righteous and Set Apart. Fear only YHWH who is able to destroy both body and soul. Doesn't say it's His will. His will is that all men should come to repentance. "Let Your will come to pass" we pray.
We were told to pray this in vain every time we pray? Hardly. It will come to pass.
We should fear the fact that He is both able, and in complete control of Himself. THAT, the magnitude of His love, patience, and righteousness is what's scary. The fact that we will be subjected to whatever is necessary to clean our hearts is scary. THAT is why "the fear of YHWH is clean."
I believe fear of "hell" gets your attention, but salvation comes from embracing love, manifested as repentance. Remember, "hell" is an old english word for "putting in the ground", the gigantic modern definition is constructed by tradition and doctrine, and continually expanded by the pulpit and the media.
See the bum on the bus as a beautiful creation of His, ravaged by the society we have propagated, who needs hope. If we have the chance to share good news and do not, he will still come to repentance but his defilement in the meantime is then on our hands.
Threatening eternal torment is an abomination, which instead of drawing one properly to YHWH, causes desolation and errant fear in that person's heart, and in their perception of YHWH.
It stands in many temples. Flee!
Peace.
That would be called Islam -- Accepting Jesus is a matter of the heart. Fear is the first sign of wisdom but just as your fear your father, not because he beats you but you want his respect and love. You don't want to let him down. The same with Jesus.
Romans 8;15 So you have not received a spirit that makes you fearful slaves. Instead, you received God’s Spirit when he adopted you as his own children. Now we call him, “Abba, Father.”
Romans 8;15 So you have not received a spirit that makes you fearful slaves. Instead, you received God’s Spirit when he adopted you as his own children. Now we call him, “Abba, Father.”