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Thread: You're sick and poor. Did God lie? Did your faith fail? What's going on?

  1. #41
    Senior Member Jemuel's Avatar
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    Default Re: You're sick and poor. Did God lie? Did your faith fail? What's going on?

    I like this thread! Amazing thoughts! God deserves to receive the highest praise:

    In sickness and in health,
    situations may be bad or good,
    favorable or not,
    you may be rich or poor,

    The Lord remains to be worthy of our praise.........

    Glory to the risen king
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    One thing I ask from the Lord,
    this only do I seek:
    that I may dwell in the house of the Lord
    all the days of my life,
    to gaze on the beauty of the Lord
    and to seek him in his temple.

  2. #42
    Administrator 1still_waters's Avatar
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    Default Re: You're sick and poor. Did God lie? Did your faith fail? What's going on?

    This hits home for me in a very personal way.

    A dearly loved woman in my church, who i saw singing in the worship team, praising God with all her heart, week after week, had severe back problems. So severe she had to sit on a chair as she worshipped God.

    This precious woman of God, loved our Lord. I could see it in her eyes. Her face had this radiant glow week after week. Often she would tear up as she praised our Lord. I saw those tears.

    In our church from time to time, this precious woman of God, would face torment, pain, and suffering, from sincere, but misguided people. They would tell her if she had enough faith, that back problem would go away, and she would be able to stand and praise Jesus.

    Before my eyes, I saw that face so often filled with the radiant joy of the Lord, get filled with frustration, pain, grief and sorrow, because these well intentioned people heaped more pain, on her already pained soul.

    When someone like me sees this in person, it changes oneself.

    Our well intentioned believers need to slow down, and realize they are causing more pain, to people that are already in pain.

    It's a wonderful thing to want to see people healed. You can't be so zealous you go about it in the wrong way, by following these religious doctrines of man.
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    I'm not Batman.

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  3. #43
    Senior Member Jemuel's Avatar
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    Default Re: You're sick and poor. Did God lie? Did your faith fail? What's going on?

    Quote Originally Posted by 1still_waters View Post
    This hits home for me in a very personal way.

    A dearly loved woman in my church, who i saw singing in the worship team, praising God with all her heart, week after week, had severe back problems. So severe she had to sit on a chair as she worshipped God.

    This precious woman of God, loved our Lord. I could see it in her eyes. Her face had this radiant glow week after week. Often she would tear up as she praised our Lord. I saw those tears.

    In our church from time to time, this precious woman of God, would face torment, pain, and suffering, from sincere, but misguided people. They would tell her if she had enough faith, that back problem would go away, and she would be able to stand and praise Jesus.

    Before my eyes, I saw that face so often filled with the radiant joy of the Lord, get filled with frustration, pain, grief and sorrow, because these well intentioned people heaped more pain, on her already pained soul.

    When someone like me sees this in person, it changes oneself.

    Our well intentioned believers need to slow down, and realize they are causing more pain, to people that are already in pain.

    It's a wonderful thing to want to see people healed. You can't be so zealous you go about it in the wrong way, by following these religious doctrines of man.
    that woman is awesome. It breaks my heart to read this part " They would tell her if she had enough faith, that back problem would go away, and she would be able to stand and praise Jesus."


    that part I do not understand. The very fact that the woman being in that situation and still goes to church praising the Lord is already faith. Who knows the heart of this woman? WOW!
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    One thing I ask from the Lord,
    this only do I seek:
    that I may dwell in the house of the Lord
    all the days of my life,
    to gaze on the beauty of the Lord
    and to seek him in his temple.

  4. #44
    Administrator 1still_waters's Avatar
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    Default Re: You're sick and poor. Did God lie? Did your faith fail? What's going on?

    Whenever this topic is brought up, people's defenses go up, and they hear things being said that aren't being said..
    They hear...
    "God doesn't heal anyone."

    Then once those defenses are up, they go on to spew out their religious doctrine of man, in order to push back against what they perceive is being said.

    Then once those defenses are up, they don't actually hear what is being said.

    And this is truly unfortunate, because God may in fact be trying to correct them, so they don't go on unintentionally abusing, hurting and maiming the already injured sheep in God's fold.

    If you're one of these people who put up your defenses and hear things that aren't being said, do me, yourself, and others a favor.

    Just Selah for a moment or two.
    Can it.
    Quiet yourself.

    Listen to what is actually being said.

    You may need to make a correction to how you're doing things. Because the way you're doing things IS hurting people.

    I've seen it. Others in this thread have seen it.

    For the good of yourself and others, listen!

    You can't go on hurting God's sheep with your well intentioned but misguided zeal.
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    I'm not Batman.

    Is that brick wall you keep hitting your head against giving you a headache? Then quit hitting your head against the brick wall.

  5. #45
    Senior Member Jemuel's Avatar
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    Default Re: You're sick and poor. Did God lie? Did your faith fail? What's going on?

    very well said stillwaters. I am learning a lot from you. God bless you more. Thank you for posting
    One thing I ask from the Lord,
    this only do I seek:
    that I may dwell in the house of the Lord
    all the days of my life,
    to gaze on the beauty of the Lord
    and to seek him in his temple.

  6. #46
    Senior Member carey's Avatar
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    Default Re: You're sick and poor. Did God lie? Did your faith fail? What's going on?

    Quote Originally Posted by Crossfire View Post
    If my reasoning is flawed then why is it that so many people were healed upon salvation before being indoctrinated?

    Anyways, I'm assuming you are referring to Paul's thorn from 2 Cor. 12? Nothing in that passage suggests that Paul thorn was in deed a sickness. In fact, the passage itself seems to suggest otherwise:




    While scripture itself does not give a physical description of what Paul's thorn was, it does say that the thorn was a "messenger of Satan". Biblically, the term "messenger of Satan" is always a reference to a demonic principality or power. Throughout scripture it makes mention of such demonic principalities & powers operating as Satanic overseers of nations and or regions influencing the people found within.


    Apparently this demonic principality was sent by Satan to harass and attack Paul on numerous occasions. Keep in mind that Paul had been physically beaten several times, imprisoned on a couple of occasions and even stoned. Also, Judaizers had infiltrated the early church trying to place Gentile believers under the old Law and were attempting to deny Paul's apostolic authority.

    I don't believe Paul's thorn to be a sickness at all but rather, a demonic principality that was using people to harass and abuse Paul. In fact, there are several verses of scripture that use the word "thorn" to describe people who were going to attack and harass God's people throughout the Old Testament. Seeing as Paul was an educated man, well verse in shedding New Testament light on Old Testament concepts, I believe one can safely assume that the thorn in Paul's side was not a sickness but rather people and / or governments under Satanic influence.
    paul said in his weakness and INFIRMITY what is a infirmity, it is an illness, anyway timothy had a stomach illness, which is why paul advised him to drink wine, all im saying is there are people God will refuse to heal in order to strengthen their faith.
    Lets use me as another example
    I got saved in 2001, i was a heroin addict, and i got hep-c from sharing needles, in 2005 God healed me. I was diagnosed with crohns disease in 2008, am i still saved, yes, do i have faith, yes, did i pray, of course, has God healed me, no. He actually led me to the scriptures that say "My grace is sufficient" and since then God has been growing my faith, why i say your reasoning is flawed is because there are numerous accounts of God refusing to heal, whatever His reason. But He is just, because i know He will heal me, be it on earth or in heaven in my glorified body. To say people aren't being healed is because of their lack of faith is wrong and dangerous, like i said before, job was given illnesses, and his entire family died, did he lack faith, no, God was testing his faithfulness
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  7. #47
    truthseeker03
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    Default Re: You're sick and poor. Did God lie? Did your faith fail? What's going on?

    The apostles were sick, naked, and in prison for the Lord. This is not disputable, as it is in the bible. Also, Jesus stated that He would reject a certain people because they saw His saints sick, naked, hungry, and in prison and they would not visit them. It talks about this in Matthew 25. Obviously from reading this scripture The Lord himself stated that His people would be in this condition. I have seen so called Christians living a life of ease, a life of religion, a life of self righteousness and false comfort, and they are not undergoing any type of affliction. They promise if you give them some money, then you will be healed. Can they speak for God and who He is going to heal? Only those who are led of the Spirit to be used of God to heal can do so, and it is in God's timing and plan. And in this false church world they teach that if you are sick something is wrong with you. They are wrong and this teaching is a lie.

    Does God heal today? Oh yes. He sure does. Are all His people healed? No. Are His promises for us to be healed totally? Yes, very much so. Do I expect total healing from my Lord? Yes, I do. Am I healed now in my body? Do I have a body like Christ? Perfect, restored, healed, with no sickness, no disease, no death in it? No, I do not, nor do I no of anyone who does. Is this promised for those who wait on Him and obey Him? Yes it is, and it is my hope.

    God judgeth the hearts and minds of all people. He searches them out. I don't want to be one of those who looks on a brother and sister and tells them that they are sinning or they just don't have faith because they are sick and they should have total healing. I want to be one of those who visits my brother and sister when they are sick, naked, hungry, and in prison. Blessed are the merciful, for they shall receive mercy.

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    Senior Member pickles's Avatar
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    Default Re: You're sick and poor. Did God lie? Did your faith fail? What's going on?

    Thee times I called out to God to remove my thorn, and three times He answered, My grace is sufficient for you.
    For it is in our weaknesses that God's power is made perfect!

    God has not lied, for we already have recieved everything.
    What we need to see that the weaknesses, remove our flesh, letting God's power fill that part of us.
    For the gift is not to increase in flesh, but in His Spirit!
    When we can see that our weakness brings His presance, grace, then we will welcome these weaknesses, even boast of them, for all is the glory of God!!!

    God bless
    pickles
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    Its really not that complicated, Jesus is the way, the truth and the life we are called to!
    The Joy of the Lord is your streangth!

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    Default Re: You're sick and poor. Did God lie? Did your faith fail? What's going on?

    Quote Originally Posted by 1still_waters View Post
    This hits home for me in a very personal way.

    A dearly loved woman in my church, who i saw singing in the worship team, praising God with all her heart, week after week, had severe back problems. So severe she had to sit on a chair as she worshipped God.

    This precious woman of God, loved our Lord. I could see it in her eyes. Her face had this radiant glow week after week. Often she would tear up as she praised our Lord. I saw those tears.

    In our church from time to time, this precious woman of God, would face torment, pain, and suffering, from sincere, but misguided people. They would tell her if she had enough faith, that back problem would go away, and she would be able to stand and praise Jesus.

    Before my eyes, I saw that face so often filled with the radiant joy of the Lord, get filled with frustration, pain, grief and sorrow, because these well intentioned people heaped more pain, on her already pained soul.

    When someone like me sees this in person, it changes oneself.

    Our well intentioned believers need to slow down, and realize they are causing more pain, to people that are already in pain.

    It's a wonderful thing to want to see people healed. You can't be so zealous you go about it in the wrong way, by following these religious doctrines of man.
    But what's really important here? Standing or praising God?
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  10. #50
    psychomom
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    Default Re: You're sick and poor. Did God lie? Did your faith fail? What's going on?

    I, too, see the Isaiah verse in what seems to me the context offered---spiritual healing from the effects of sin.
    I've posted this before (so forgive me, those of you who've seen it already) but an old friend used to say God anwers many prayers in one of four ways:
    1) Yes!
    2) No
    3) Not now
    4) I thought you'd never ask!
    For those of us with chronic, unrelenting illnesses, we should ask the Lord for healing! Sometimes we don't have because we don't ask.

    However, we must be willing to accept answers 2 and 3, too. If the Lord has allowed us to be ill, we may be sure He has a purpose in it.
    We may also be certain He will heal us the very moment that purpose is fulfilled. ♥

    I knew a young believer whose dad (also a believer) was sick with cancer. Over and over she was told if she prayed with enough faith, he would not die as had been every doc's prognosis.
    When he did die of the cancer.....she was devastated. She felt she had pretty much caused his death by her lack of faith.
    It was a long time before she could get out of bed and get dressed, let alone trust our faithful Father.

    I know the folks who told her this were very well meaning. But, indeed, do we expect that believers will or should never die?
    Doesn't bodily infirmity end all life, even if one has lived to over a hundred? Illness or injury...off the top of my head I can't think of another way we humans die. If God truly wished for all of us to be healed completely every time we are sick or injured...well, you can see where that "logic" is headed.
    It did seem as though she was expected to somehow create this massive amount of faith needed for her dad's healing, which isn't anything we ask those who are coming to salvation for...are we? (honest question)

    God is good! And He is our Healer! He often heals those who are His and those who are not. But it seems the teaching that broke my friend's heart when her dad died is to almost hold God hostage to the idea, if that makes sense.

    Thanks, 1still_waters. Who knows whom you have helped in beginning this thread?
    (I know I feel encouraged!)
    ~ellie
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    Senior Member Trax's Avatar
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    Default Re: You're sick and poor. Did God lie? Did your faith fail? What's going on?

    Quote Originally Posted by 1still_waters View Post
    Are you still sick, and you believe in Jesus?
    Are you wondering if God has lied or failed you?
    Are you wondering if you're that way because you just don't have the right level of faith?
    Why are the people, who are preaching, having enough faith and you'll be healed, all growing
    older and dying? Its the wages of sin. It is appointed once for man to die, then judgement.
    Why aren't they staying healed? The truth is, its God's will who gets healed and when and who doesn't. Who dies and how, and who doesn't. By His stripes we are healed. But God sees the end
    from the beginning. Yes, you get healed, but He is seeing the end. At what point in time
    did God promise you the healing? When, "by His stripes, we are healed", was written, none of us
    were even born yet. Our great grandparents hadn't been born yet. He sees the end, from the
    beginning. Now, i don't recall God providing a time frame for the healing, only that He promised it.
    Abraham was promised that his children would as the sand on the shore, by God. God backup His
    promise, but it took a long time to come about. God promised healing, but like Abraham, you may not
    see the promise until after you die and resurrected. Keep the faith.
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    Senior Member carey's Avatar
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    Default Re: You're sick and poor. Did God lie? Did your faith fail? What's going on?

    This is my experience with wof teachings:
    Before i came to Christ i was a heroin addict and had gotten hep-c because of needle use, i used to be in alot of pain and was sick all the time. While i was in a christian rehab home, i was told, just pray God will heal you, one night i was extremely sick, had a fever over 104, instead of taking me to the hospital they told me to just pray and have faith, your not getting better because you don't have enough faith, when i eventually did get better, i questioned God, i thought He just didn't love me, i had been torn down, God did heal me of the hep-c, but it was in His timing. And listening to this garbage opened a door for them, after this they had me convinced i had some secret sin in my heart and that's why i was sick, God was punishing me for my sinful life, it took 3 years of counseling to believe that God really did love me. I also had a friend in that home who had bipolar, she was told she didn't need medicine, that medicine was the devil's work, all she needed to do was pray, she eventually went crazy and is now back to prostitution and smoking meth, this teaching tears new believers down, when God doesn't answer the prayer the believer thinks it's their fault, this teaching is dangerous and puts a stumbling block in front of those weak in the faith, quite a few years ago a little boy was having an asthma attack, his parents refused to give him his inhaler because of this teaching, they just prayed and asked God to heal him, the boy died, and the parents are now serving life in prison
    This teaching is evil and destructive
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    Senior Member weakness's Avatar
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    Default Re: You're sick and poor. Did God lie? Did your faith fail? What's going on?

    But we have this treasure in earthen vessels that the excellency of the power may be of God and not us. We are troubled on every side, perplexed, persecuted,bear in the body the dying of the lord,delivered unto death. For as the sufferings of Christ abound in us so the consolation. ....as it were appointed unto death.made a spectacle to the world, to men and angles, fools for Christ,weak, despised, both hunger ,thirst,and are naked,buffeted, no certain dwelling place,,labor, reviled, persecuted, defamed, made the filth of the world, off scouring of all things. I write these things not to shame you but I warn you.
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    Senior Member damombomb's Avatar
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    Default Re: You're sick and poor. Did God lie? Did your faith fail? What's going on?

    This reminds me a few years ago a lady and her husband would not take their child to the Dr
    because of their faith, the boy died. The talk show host pointed out to the mother that she
    had glasses and had went to the eye Dr, yes that can be dangerous. The lord also gives us
    common sence
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    Default Re: You're sick and poor. Did God lie? Did your faith fail? What's going on?

    I think of Lazarus from Luke 16. He was sick AND poor. I guess a man with as little faith as him is only fit for Abraham's bosom when he dies.
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    Senior Member RickyZ's Avatar
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    Default Re: You're sick and poor. Did God lie? Did your faith fail? What's going on?

    When you ponder these questions you have to remember that God is not in charge here. He created creation, He created us, He gave us authority over creation, and we gave that away to Satan and his horde (henceforth the darkies). God clearly stated at that time that until He sends His Redeemer, we have to live with it. God did send His redeemer in Jesus, but Jesus isn't here right now to enforce His authority. That is why He told us that WE are to take His authority and use it to enforce His will here and now until He returns. And while we can do that we can only do so interceedingly. So while we will fight and win battles in His name, the darkies still rule the land.

    You're sick and poor. (For the most part) God didn't do that, lack of faith didn't do that (altho that doesn't help), what's going on is you live in an environment controlled by entities whose sole goal is to sour you on God. And sometimes that means you suffering as long and hard as is humanly possible at their hands to make you question Him.

    But remember Job. God knows people suffer for Him and He repays that. What you don't have here and now because of a Job Trial is being banked on the other side, as long as you remain Job faithful.

    Yes God is in ultimate control because He does have the power to just step in and put it to a stop. But He's not going to do that, because He handed that power off to us. We gave it away, and to restore Gods intent that we have the power one of us has to take it back. That's why Jesus had to come as a man, so that the power would be restored to man as He intended. And yes with that restoration ultimately all sickness and poverty will be restored to health and wealth. But until then, people are human, people get sick, people go broke, people die, and God rarely has an actual hand in it unless we invite Him to.

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    Senior Member carey's Avatar
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    Default Re: You're sick and poor. Did God lie? Did your faith fail? What's going on?

    Quote Originally Posted by RickyZ View Post
    When you ponder these questions you have to remember that God is not in charge here. He created creation, He created us, He gave us authority over creation, and we gave that away to Satan and his horde (henceforth the darkies). God clearly stated at that time that until He sends His Redeemer, we have to live with it. God did send His redeemer in Jesus, but Jesus isn't here right now to enforce His authority. That is why He told us that WE are to take His authority and use it to enforce His will here and now until He returns. And while we can do that we can only do so interceedingly. So while we will fight and win battles in His name, the darkies still rule the land.

    You're sick and poor. (For the most part) God didn't do that, lack of faith didn't do that (altho that doesn't help), what's going on is you live in an environment controlled by entities whose sole goal is to sour you on God. And sometimes that means you suffering as long and hard as is humanly possible at their hands to make you question Him.

    But remember Job. God knows people suffer for Him and He repays that. What you don't have here and now because of a Job Trial is being banked on the other side, as long as you remain Job faithful.

    Yes God is in ultimate control because He does have the power to just step in and put it to a stop. But He's not going to do that, because He handed that power off to us. We gave it away, and to restore Gods intent that we have the power one of us has to take it back. That's why Jesus had to come as a man, so that the power would be restored to man as He intended. And yes with that restoration ultimately all sickness and poverty will be restored to health and wealth. But until then, people are human, people get sick, people go broke, people die, and God rarely has an actual hand in it unless we invite Him to.
    i completely disagree!!!
    Jesus is alive and working in our lives every day
    God is a God of details, He knows us intimately and is active in our lives
    It seems like you follow the teaching that claims we are all gods of our life
    if so that kind of teaching is dangerous
    It makes us believe we can take the place of Christ, that we don't need Him
    which goes against what the gospel teaches us
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    Senior Member RickyZ's Avatar
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    Default Re: You're sick and poor. Did God lie? Did your faith fail? What's going on?

    You misunderstand. Again go back to Genesis. God gave authority over creation to us. His deal was He'd walk with us, talk with us, lend an ear, and give advice. But whatever was to happen in creation, it was ours to determine. We gave that authority to Satan and his horde, who use it to rule over our here and now. It's their ball.

    So that means we all the more need Jesus. We've made ourselves servants of the horde, with no authority of our own to stop them. That is why we so desperately need to call upon Jesus and His authority. I cant by any way of my own tell a darky get away and leave me alone, but I can call upon the authority of the Lord to make it shut up and back off. No, the fact the darkies run the asylum only means that I DO need God active in my life every day.

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    Senior Member carey's Avatar
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    Default Re: You're sick and poor. Did God lie? Did your faith fail? What's going on?

    Quote Originally Posted by RickyZ View Post
    You misunderstand. Again go back to Genesis. God gave authority over creation to us. His deal was He'd walk with us, talk with us, lend an ear, and give advice. But whatever was to happen in creation, it was ours to determine. We gave that authority to Satan and his horde, who use it to rule over our here and now. It's their ball.

    So that means we all the more need Jesus. We've made ourselves servants of the horde, with no authority of our own to stop them. That is why we so desperately need to call upon Jesus and His authority. I cant by any way of my own tell a darky get away and leave me alone, but I can call upon the authority of the Lord to make it shut up and back off. No, the fact the darkies run the asylum only means that I DO need God active in my life every day.
    Ok, sorry dear, maybe it was the way you worded it, i got it now

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    Senior Member RickyZ's Avatar
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    Smile Re: You're sick and poor. Did God lie? Did your faith fail? What's going on?

    Quote Originally Posted by carey View Post
    Ok, sorry dear, maybe it was the way you worded it, i got it now

    No worries. I know I come at it from a different angle than most so I'm prone to being misunderstood at first. Don't hesitate to ask me to restate something.

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