Keeping the Old Man Alive

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
Nov 26, 2011
3,818
62
0
#1
Today people are being saved in their sins....which means they are not saved at all!

In Real Salvation the old self has to die, the passion and desires of the flesh must be put to death and it does not happen by degree.

The gospel message which is being preached in the church system, inclusive of every single denomination, is a complete fallacy.

They all preach salvation as an abstract provision instead of a present reality connected to the condition of the heart. Those who are truly saved produce the fruit of righteousness in their lives because their hearts have been purified by faith.

You cannot be saved and in rebellion to God at the same time.




[video]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YYskASKNkPA[/video]
 

starfield

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2009
3,393
58
48
#2
The one thing I disagree with this video is the idea of being born innocent. It is contrary to Psalm 51:5 “Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me". Everyone is born with the carnal Adamic nature but until they reach a point in their life where they are able to choose between right and wrong and are capable of accepting Christ as their savior, they will not be held accountable for their sins. This, however, does not justify “saved in sin”.
 
Nov 26, 2011
3,818
62
0
#3
The one thing I disagree with this video is the idea of being born innocent. It is contrary to Psalm 51:5 “Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me". Everyone is born with the carnal Adamic nature but until they reach a point in their life where they are able to choose between right and wrong and are capable of accepting Christ as their savior, they will not be held accountable for their sins. This, however, does not justify “saved in sin”.
If men are not born innocent then that means they are born guilty.

If you were born guilty then your guilt is not your own doing and thus God would be cruel and vindictive to hold you accountable for it.

Those who believe that they were born guilty have a great stumbling block in their mind regarding repentance because they will hold a view that their sin is not really their fault but a result of how they were made.

David did not say that sin was born in Him, He said his mother conceived him in sin.

[video]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KVQ1t5i058Q[/video]
 
May 30, 2012
241
0
0
#4
Today people are being saved in their sins....which means they are not saved at all!

In Real Salvation the old self has to die, the passion and desires of the flesh must be put to death and it does not happen by degree.

The gospel message which is being preached in the church system, inclusive of every single denomination, is a complete fallacy.

They all preach salvation as an abstract provision instead of a present reality connected to the condition of the heart. Those who are truly saved produce the fruit of righteousness in their lives because their hearts have been purified by faith.

You cannot be saved and in rebellion to God at the same time.




[video]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YYskASKNkPA[/video]
When you say you can't be saved in your sins which sins are you talking about?

Only my understanding is if a person comes before God with a repentant heart, asks God to forgive them their sin and then asks Christ into their life as Lord and Saviour they are at that point saved.
Now you correctly say a person is obediant by faith. How at the point of salvation can a person of learnt obediance through faith in Christ? they've only just become a Christian
And are you saying, at this point they becoime sinless then?
 
W

wwjd_kilden

Guest
#5
Sadly, we ARE born sinners, incredible as it might sound:

1 Have mercy on me, O God,
because of your unfailing love.
Because of your great compassion,
blot out the stain of my sins.
2 Wash me clean from my guilt.
Purify me from my sin.
3 For I recognize my rebellion;
it haunts me day and night.
4 Against you, and you alone, have I sinned;
I have done what is evil in your sight.
You will be proved right in what you say,
and your judgment against me is just.[a]
5 For I was born a sinner—
yes, from the moment my mother conceived me.
6 But you desire honesty from the womb,[b]
teaching me wisdom even there.

If you can't be saved in your sins, what is there to be saved from?

Also: The flesh is ALWAYS in rebellion with God :( Even after we are saved, That is why we are lucky to have a merciful God, and the guidance of the Holy spirit :)
 
Last edited:
May 30, 2012
241
0
0
#6
Sadly, we ARE born sinners, incredible as it might sound:

1 Have mercy on me, O God,
because of your unfailing love.
Because of your great compassion,
blot out the stain of my sins.
2 Wash me clean from my guilt.
Purify me from my sin.
3 For I recognize my rebellion;
it haunts me day and night.
4 Against you, and you alone, have I sinned;
I have done what is evil in your sight.
You will be proved right in what you say,
and your judgment against me is just.[a]
5 For I was born a sinner—
yes, from the moment my mother conceived me.
6 But you desire honesty from the womb,[b]
teaching me wisdom even there.

If you can't be saved in your sins, what is there to be saved from?

Also: The flesh is ALWAYS in rebellion with God :( Even after we are saved, That is why we are lucky to have a merciful God, and the guidance of the Holy spirit :)
An honest post by an honest heart that is humble, counts more than any post I could read of profound scriptural knowledge
Thank you and God bless
BTW
We're all sinners saved by grace, some though seem able to convince themselves otherwise
 
B

Bornhuman

Guest
#7
Yes, we are born with a sinful nature. You may say that its unfair that we are all found guilty in Adam but this balances out when you realize that by the obedience of one (Christ) we are all found righteous.

Rom 5:12​
Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

Rom 5:13​
(For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

Rom 5:14​
Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

Rom 5:15​
But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.

Rom 5:16​
And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.

Rom 5:17​
For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)

Rom 5:18​
Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

Rom 5:19​
For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

 

starfield

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2009
3,393
58
48
#8
If men are not born innocent then that means they are born guilty.

If you were born guilty then your guilt is not your own doing and thus God would be cruel and vindictive to hold you accountable for it.

Those who believe that they were born guilty have a great stumbling block in their mind regarding repentance because they will hold a view that their sin is not really their fault but a result of how they were made.

David did not say that sin was born in Him, He said his mother conceived him in sin.
So you are saying David meant that the condition of his conception was a sin? How so?

We do not inherit the guilt of Adam's sin nor is the sin imputed on us (we didn't eat the forbidden fruit) rather all are born with the tendency to sin because by him sin came into the world. Do you need to sit down and teach a child to steal other kids' toys, lie, or disobey their parents before they start those? No. Why? Because of the carnal and depraved nature of man. Proverbs 22:15-Foolishness is bound in the heart of a child; but the rod of correction shall drive it far from him. Who teaches that child foolish behaviors?

I understand that there is also a nurture aspect.

If everyone is born without a sinful nature, why was death passed upon all men? Why does the bible say all (inclusive) have sinned? There is no exception. Like I said before children are not held accountable for their sins until they reach the age where they can discern right from wrong, so essentially they are innocent in God's sight. No wonder why Jesus said in Luke 18:16 " ...Suffer little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God". The age of accountability is between God and that individual.
 
G

GreenNnice

Guest
#9
Today people are being saved in their sins....which means they are not saved at all!

In Real Salvation the old self has to die, the passion and desires of the flesh must be put to death and it does not happen by degree.

The gospel message which is being preached in the church system, inclusive of every single denomination, is a complete fallacy.

They all preach salvation as an abstract provision instead of a present reality connected to the condition of the heart. Those who are truly saved produce the fruit of righteousness in their lives because their hearts have been purified by faith.

You cannot be saved and in rebellion to God at the same time.




[video]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YYskASKNkPA[/video]
Only He in him knows their true heart condition at their time of choosing Christ into and unto their life (1 Samuel 16:7), the Lord leads, in Spirit and in Truth. Follow Him, understanding of His great grace and mercy that abounds to the one whose life is crucified in Him and knows His grace is sufficient and His mercy mediating, justly, His Love unto and into all who choose servanthood to Him once saved by Him . :)
 
Last edited by a moderator:
C

cfultz3

Guest
#10
Sadly, we ARE born sinners, incredible as it might sound:

*
*
*

If you can't be saved in your sins, what is there to be saved from?

Also: The flesh is ALWAYS in rebellion with God :( Even after we are saved, That is why we are lucky to have a merciful God, and the guidance of the Holy spirit :)
So truthfully said.
 
Nov 26, 2011
3,818
62
0
#11
So you are saying David meant that the condition of his conception was a sin? How so?
It is appears to me that David is expressing his disdain at being born into a world of iniquity.

Some believe he is referring to being born of an illicit relationship but at looking at the whole context of the passage I don't lean in that direction. What we do know is that David is most definitely not teaching that sin was born inside him, not only does he not say that but the Jews never taught it that way.

Inborn sin was never taught in the early church but became cemented into Christian orthodoxy through Bishop Augustine of Hippo. I linked a video above which discusses this very issue and I encourage you to take the time and watch it.

We do not inherit the guilt of Adam's sin nor is the sin imputed on us (we didn't eat the forbidden fruit) rather all are born with the tendency to sin because by him sin came into the world. Do you need to sit down and teach a child to steal other kids' toys, lie, or disobey their parents before they start those? No. Why? Because of the carnal and depraved nature of man. Proverbs 22:15-Foolishness is bound in the heart of a child; but the rod of correction shall drive it far from him. Who teaches that child foolish behaviors?
The tendency to sin is simply the natural passions and desires of the flesh. These existed PRIOR to Adam and Eve's first sin. Eve was enticed by the lust of her flesh and she freely chose to yield to those desires in disobedience to God.

Gen 3:6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.

James describes this process very clearly.

Jas 1:13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:
Jas 1:14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
Jas 1:15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

Conceived lust brings forth sin because it is freely yielded to in the mind. God told Cain that he should rule over the desire to sin...

Gen 4:6 And the LORD said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen?
Gen 4:7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.

Sin is rooted in the free choice that men make to yield to their fleshly desires in disobedience to God. Sin is not the result of some evil inborn nature passed down from Adam. That is an erroneous teaching upon which much false doctrine has been established.

Adam was created innocent and so is a baby. Adam walked with God but did not have the holy spirit within just like a baby.

When people sin they sell themselves into bondage and that is when a sin nature begins to develop, this sin nature becomes more entrenched over time through the long practiced habit of sinning because sin hardens the heart. The light of God must be suppressed in the mind in order to commit sin and the end of such action is eventually a reprobate with a seared conscience.

I understand that there is also a nurture aspect.

If everyone is born without a sinful nature, why was death passed upon all men? Why does the bible say all (inclusive) have sinned? There is no exception. Like I said before children are not held accountable for their sins until they reach the age where they can discern right from wrong, so essentially they are innocent in God's sight. No wonder why Jesus said in Luke 18:16 " ...Suffer little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God". The age of accountability is between God and that individual.
Death was passed upon all men because all have sinned. All men have followed in the likeness of Adam's action and have gone their own way in disregard to the instruction of God, whether they violated their conscience (Joh 1:9, Jam 4:17) or a direct command of God (1Joh 3:4).

A child is not held accountable when they are young because they cannot sin. Sin can only take occasion by the law and then it brings death.

Rom 7:8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.
Rom 7:9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
Rom 7:10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.

Paul was speaking in the context of the moral law of Moses but the same principle applies for those who violate their conscience.

Rom 5:14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

Sins unto death are those which are rooted in willful transgression.

Summing up.

The doctrine of original sin is a heretical teaching which completely redefines the Gospel because it redefines sin from being the result of the free independent choices of men and puts the blame on tha state in which one was born.

Thus repentance is redefined into a concept of "confessing a sinful condition."

Due to the adherent of the doctrine believing that they were born sinful and thus actual sin is simply necessitated by this condition they then believe they cannot forsake all sin. Thus repentance is neutralised in the mind and reconciliation to God through genuine repentance and faith is thwarted.

Today we have a world of professing Christianity (a whore that rides the beast) that believes that sin is inevitable and thus they hold to a theology which teaches that they get saved IN their sins. The sin and rebellion never stops and thus they are cloaked in a fake provision of Jesus while they continue to serve two masters, remain double minded, carnal and sold under sin, as they wait for God to clean them up some time down the road.

These people never realise that the initial cleanup is meant to occur in the process of repentance, where they are broken on the rock of Christ whereby all willful rebellion is purged from the heart, which then puts them in a position where they will yield to the leading of God and thus be purified by the implanted word within.
 
Nov 26, 2011
3,818
62
0
#12
When you say you can't be saved in your sins which sins are you talking about?
You cannot be saved in your rebellion in the same way that Israel could not be saved if they remained in Egypt. Those of Israel had to obey God and leave Egypt.

It is the implanted word within which saves the soul and in order to receive it all rebellion has to forsaken. This doesn't mean you are perfect, it simply means you turn from your own way and choose to yield to God.

Jas 1:21 Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.
Jas 1:22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.


Only my understanding is if a person comes before God with a repentant heart, asks God to forgive them their sin and then asks Christ into their life as Lord and Saviour they are at that point saved.
Now you correctly say a person is obediant by faith. How at the point of salvation can a person of learnt obediance through faith in Christ? they've only just become a Christian
And are you saying, at this point they becoime sinless then?
It is in repentance that the sinner dies to self. They turn back to God from going their own way. Their mind changes in regards to their own conduct and the righteousness of God.

Jesus taught of this death that we must experience.

Luk 9:23 And he said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me.
Luk 9:24 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: but whosoever will lose his life for my sake, the same shall save it.

We are to lose our lives for His sake and this death of our life is a result of the godly sorrow that works a repentance unto salvation. The godly sorrow produces the motivation for the change in action.

2Co 7:10 For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death.
2Co 7:11 For behold this selfsame thing, that ye sorrowed after a godly sort, what carefulness it wrought in you, yea, what clearing of yourselves, yea, what indignation, yea, what fear, yea, what vehement desire, yea, what zeal, yea, what revenge! In all things ye have approved yourselves to be clear in this matter.

We are buried WITH CHRIST in his death, we share in His death, in order that we be raised up to newness of life.

Rom 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

It is in this death that the body of sin is done away with that from then on we should not serve sin.

Rom 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

Gal 5:24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.


Any Gospel message which implies that the flesh is not crucified or is only partially crucified is operating under the Spirit of error.

Likewise any Gospel message that teaches that the crucifiixion of the flesh is abstract or positional is operating under the Spirit of error.

The crucified life is simply when or wills are submitted to the leading of God and we no longer walk our own way.

A fallacy that many contend against in objection to this view is that ofsinless perfection. I am not speaking of sinless perfection, I am speaking of loving God from a pure heart. Where the intent of the heart is pure. We may make mistakes but those mistakes (or sins if you want to call them that, ie. hamartia - missing the mark) are not rooted in iniquity.

A baby Christian has a lot to learn and needs correction in many areas but their heart is not defiled and they are not in rebellion to God. As God leads them they will follow.
 
Last edited:

starfield

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2009
3,393
58
48
#13
The tendency to sin is simply the natural passions and desires of the flesh. These existed PRIOR to Adam and Eve's first sin. Eve was enticed by the lust of her flesh and she freely chose to yield to those desires in disobedience to God.
The flesh naturally wants to heed to sin because we all have a sin nature brought by the fall of man.

Adam was created innocent and so is a baby. Adam walked with God but did not have the holy spirit within just like a baby.
Then at what age does that child become a sinner? Or are you saying everyone is saved if they don't commit those vile sins you claim? It seems to me that your own idea of sin is just porn, adultery, and fornication. With that notion, if someone does not commit those then they are saved. What about other sins? Also, don't you think there might be some people that just by luck have never committed those vile sins or any other sin and so the idea of "all have sinned" does not apply to them, thus they are saved regardless of accepting Jesus? The bible says that all have sinned and need a savior. Jesus said He is the way, the truth, and life, no one comes to the Father but through Him. Even though you are morally good, so far as you have not accepted the Savior you are a sinner. Morality is not enough.

When people sin they sell themselves into bondage and that is when a sin nature begins to develop, this sin nature becomes more entrenched over time through the long practiced habit of sinning because sin hardens the heart. The light of God must be suppressed in the mind in order to commit sin and the end of such action is eventually a reprobate with a seared conscience.
Then the light of God is suppressed in a child's mind and their conscience is seared when they commit sin, right? Or will you say the dishonesty that a little child exhibits, such as lying against their babysitter, or stealing a kid's toy, is not sin? Therefore lying and stealing is not a sin, right?
The act is a sin, but is the mind capable of being held liable or does the circumstance warrant one to be held liable? This is what only God can judge.

A child is not held accountable when they are young because they cannot sin. Sin can only take occasion by the law and then it brings death.
Sins unto death are those which are rooted in willful transgression.
Then how do you explain why children tend to wrongdoings without learning them, if they don't have sin nature?
An infant commits wrong doings because of the sin nature.

The doctrine of original sin is a heretical teaching which completely redefines the Gospel because it redefines sin from being the result of the free independent choices of men and puts the blame on tha state in which one was born.
I don't believe it justifies living in sin while claiming to be saved. People who proclaim "since we have a sin nature nothing can be done to stop sinning" are in great error.

Today we have a world of professing Christianity (a whore that rides the beast) that believes that sin is inevitable and thus they hold to a theology which teaches that they get saved IN their sins. The sin and rebellion never stops and thus they are cloaked in a fake provision of Jesus while they continue to serve two masters, remain double minded, carnal and sold under sin, as they wait for God to clean them up some time down the road.

It's a pity for someone to believe that the sin and rebellion never stops after salvation. If so, what have they been saved from? The Lord knows His true followers.
No one can serve two masters.

These people never realise that the initial cleanup is meant to occur in the process of repentance, where they are broken on the rock of Christ whereby all willful rebellion is purged from the heart, which then puts them in a position where they will yield to the leading of God and thus be purified by the implanted word within.
Mr. Skinski, if they have to cleanup themselves before coming to God, essentially spotted and pure through repentance, as you say, why would they still need to come to God for purification? This is the part of your doctrine that confuses me. :confused:
I believe repentance precedes salvation but it does not purify. Christ does the purification while we do the surrendering. It's about going to the cross with your chains of sin, Jesus breaking the chains, and then you go and sin no more (not putting the chains of sin back on after salvation and claiming to still be saved). Repentance is having the will to change and having a different view of sin.

Isaiah 1:18- Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.
See the Lord is calling you with your sins. He didn't say "wash your sins first through repentance then come". The surgeon removes the tumor, not the sick individual. Jesus cleanses us from sin, not you. You just need to take a step of faith and be willing to be saved.
 
May 30, 2012
241
0
0
#14
You cannot be saved in your rebellion in the same way that Israel could not be saved if they remained in Egypt. Those of Israel had to obey God and leave Egypt.

It is the implanted word within which saves the soul and in order to receive it all rebellion has to forsaken. This doesn't mean you are perfect, it simply means you turn from your own way and choose to yield to God.

Jas 1:21 Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.
Jas 1:22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.




It is in repentance that the sinner dies to self. They turn back to God from going their own way. Their mind changes in regards to their own conduct and the righteousness of God.

Jesus taught of this death that we must experience.

Luk 9:23 And he said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me.
Luk 9:24 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: but whosoever will lose his life for my sake, the same shall save it.

We are to lose our lives for His sake and this death of our life is a result of the godly sorrow that works a repentance unto salvation. The godly sorrow produces the motivation for the change in action.

2Co 7:10 For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death.
2Co 7:11 For behold this selfsame thing, that ye sorrowed after a godly sort, what carefulness it wrought in you, yea, what clearing of yourselves, yea, what indignation, yea, what fear, yea, what vehement desire, yea, what zeal, yea, what revenge! In all things ye have approved yourselves to be clear in this matter.

We are buried WITH CHRIST in his death, we share in His death, in order that we be raised up to newness of life.

Rom 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

It is in this death that the body of sin is done away with that from then on we should not serve sin.

Rom 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

Gal 5:24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.


Any Gospel message which implies that the flesh is not crucified or is only partially crucified is operating under the Spirit of error.

Likewise any Gospel message that teaches that the crucifiixion of the flesh is abstract or positional is operating under the Spirit of error.

The crucified life is simply when or wills are submitted to the leading of God and we no longer walk our own way.

A fallacy that many contend against in objection to this view is that ofsinless perfection. I am not speaking of sinless perfection, I am speaking of loving God from a pure heart. Where the intent of the heart is pure. We may make mistakes but those mistakes (or sins if you want to call them that, ie. hamartia - missing the mark) are not rooted in iniquity.

A baby Christian has a lot to learn and needs correction in many areas but their heart is not defiled and they are not in rebellion to God. As God leads them they will follow.
Can I ask, due to what I have heard on this website of late. In your opinion, what is a Christian's righteousness?
Thanks
 
Nov 26, 2011
3,818
62
0
#15
The flesh naturally wants to heed to sin because we all have a sin nature brought by the fall of man.
You might believe that but such teaching was not taught in the early church, it was never taught in Judaism. Augustine brought it into Christian orthodoxy and its origin is in gnostic philosophy.

Jam 1:13-15 clearly says why people sin.

Those lusts of the flesh existed BEFORE Adam and Eve sinned.

Teaching that we have a sin nature brought by the fall of man directly contradicts these scriptures.

Paul wrote of a sinful nature but he did not teach you were born with it.

Eph 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
Eph 2:2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
Eph 2:3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

In fact Paul wrote of those who "by nature" do the right thing.

Rom 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
Rom 2:15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)

Look up nature in the Greek and you'll find it has to do with "growth."

Think about these things. Ask yourself why the early church did not teach that people were born with a sin nature? Why didn't the Jews ever teach it? The gnostics taught it because they believed the flesh was by nature evil.

Then at what age does that child become a sinner?


We become accountable when we willingly do wrong when we know it is wrong. I don't think there is a specific age. A baby is not sinning, they have no knowledge of good and evil. They are not righteous either as they have no knowledge of what is right. A young child is neutral and that is why the Lord says we should raise up children in the way they should go.


Or are you saying everyone is saved if they don't commit those vile sins you claim?
No I am not saving that. Saved literally means to be rescued or freed from something. In order to be saved you have to first be in bondage.

Jesus taught that if you sin you are a slave to sin (Joh 8:34) and that He came to set people free from bondage (Joh 8:35-36). Paul also taught that if we yield to sin then we are slaves to sin (Rom 6:16). People sell themselves into sin when they commit sin and this act also causes them to spiritually die so to speak as it cuts them off from a relationship with God and puts them under condemnation.

Returning to obedience cannot undo that condemnation either and that is why Jesus Christ had to offer Himself on our behalf.



It seems to me that your own idea of sin is just porn, adultery, and fornication. With that notion, if someone does not commit those then they are saved.


It may seem that way to you but I assure you that I don't believe that. Sin is simply doing the wrong thing when you know to do right. It is God that is the source of light and his grace has appeared to all men teaching us how to live (Tit 2:11-12) and when men rebel against that they are sinning. It is very simple.

What about other sins?
Also, don't you think there might be some people that just by luck have never committed those vile sins or any other sin and so the idea of "all have sinned" does not apply to them, thus they are saved regardless of accepting Jesus?


While I do lean towards the view that all have sinned I am not concluded on it because that verse in Romans has to be read on context with the whole passage.

Rom 3:9 What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;
Rom 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
Rom 3:11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
Rom 3:12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
Rom 3:13 Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips:
Rom 3:14 Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness:
Rom 3:15 Their feet are swift to shed blood:
Rom 3:16 Destruction and misery are in their ways:
Rom 3:17 And the way of peace have they not known:
Rom 3:18 There is no fear of God before their eyes.
Rom 3:19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.
Rom 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

Rom 3:10-12 is referencing Psalm 14, Isa 53 and Jer 50.

The context of Rom 3 is that of comparing the Jews and Gentiles and teaching that both nations of people are concluded under sin. One is not better than the other and thus both peoples need a saviour.

There are plenty of examples of people fearing God and of righteous people in the Bible. Is Rom 3 contradicting those passages? If it is universal in application all the time then those other verses would be false. The Bible harmonises and Rom 3 is speaking of rebellious peope, people who do not fear God.

Did Enoch ever sin? I don't know. The scripture says he walked with God and God took him. By forcing sin on Enoch would imply that sin is not a choice but a symptom necessitated by a disease.

If sin is necessitated by the disease of being born sinful then your sin is not your fault. That is the typical view in the church today and that is why they teach you get saved IN your sins.

Remember being "saved" is to be saved from something. If you never "chose" to sin and never sold yourself into bondage then you would not need to be saved from bondage.

Would that mean you didn't need Jesus? No! Not at all because Jesus is the way, the truth and the life. He is the creator and it is in Him that we drink of the living water. It is His righteousness (his standard) that we adhere to and we walk in His Spirit. It is through Christ IN US that we walk with God. It is through abiding in Him that we can bear fruit for without him we could not do anything.

Jesus is the Light of the world which lights every man. Without that light we would be ignorant animals walking around in the darkness subject to the base desires of the flesh.



The bible says that all have sinned and need a savior. Jesus said He is the way, the truth, and life, no one comes to the Father but through Him. Even though you are morally good, so far as you have not accepted the Savior you are a sinner. Morality is not enough.
I agree with you, Jesus is the way the truth and the life and no-one comes to the Father except THROUGH HIM. That is because it is the Spirit of life in Jesus Christ that enables us to fulfill the righteousness of the law. It enables us because He is the source of the true light, hence we are to walk after the Spirit and by this we are purified within and we fulfill the righteousness of the law from a pure heart.

Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
Rom 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
Rom 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Born of incorruptible seed within, yielding to the truth through the Spirit (the Spirit of life in Jesus Christ).
1Pe 1:22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:
1Pe 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.


The implanted word within.
Jas 1:21 Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.

That is why those who walk after the Spirit will live and those who do die. There is only life through the source of all life and that is Jesus Christ.

starfield;791513[/COLOR said:
Then the light of God is suppressed in a child's mind and their conscience is seared when they commit sin, right? Or will you say the dishonesty that a little child exhibits, such as lying against their babysitter, or stealing a kid's toy, is not sin? Therefore lying and stealing is not a sin, right?
It is only sin if the child understood right and wrong. A selfish baby walking in their flesh who does a tantrum because they are not getting their toy is not sinning, not in the sense that they are rebelling against the truth. They have no concept of such things, they are just yielding to the flesh. They are neither righteous nor unrighteous.

The condemnation that God holds over men is that light has come into the world but men loved their evil deeds more than the light and thus suppressed that light. One must be able to reason to suppress the light and a baby or young child cannot reason yet.

Jesus let the children come to him and told those with him that we must be like children. We have to look to God from a young child perspective where we trust Him.

Being a child of God does not mean you are perfect. It simply means you are in submission from the heart. A baby Christian for example, would err much more than a mature Christian. Just as a young baby or child errs more than an adult in the sense of acceptable etiquette.


 
Nov 26, 2011
3,818
62
0
#16
starfield;791513[/COLOR said:
The act is a sin, but is the mind capable of being held liable or does the circumstance warrant one to be held liable? This is what only God can judge.
Technically sin is falling short or missing the mark so you could say a baby sins in this sense. Sins unto death are those willfully committed though and are rooted in a heart of iniquity and rebellion.

starfield;791513[/COLOR said:
]
Then how do you explain why children tend to wrongdoings without learning them, if they don't have sin nature?
An infant commits wrong doings because of the sin nature.


An infant yields to the passions and desires of the flesh. The passions and desires of the flesh is not a sin nature. That is the error. They clearly existed BEFORE Adam and Eve sinned and evident in Gen 3:6. God said the creation was good.

God told Cain that he should rule over the desire to sin.

Gen 4:6 And the LORD said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen?
Gen 4:7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.

Jesus was tempted in all points as we are because Jesus had the same passions and desires of the flesh as we do.

Heb_4:15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.

Jesus was not born with a sin nature and neither are we. It is a fiction. It was introduced into church orthodoxy by Augustine of Hippo. That is a proven fact anyone can research. Inborn sin was not taught by the early church, they taught sin as a choice.

The Jews also taught sin as a choice and taught Yetzer Tov was the moral conscience and that Yetzer Ra was the passions and desires of the flesh. Sin was the result of suppressing the Yetzer Tov in order to abuse Yetzer Ra.

The desire to eat is not a sin. Gluttony is a sin because it is choosing to yield to eating in an uncontrolled fashion. It is exactly same with the sexual desire and fornication.


starfield;791513[/COLOR said:
starfield;791513[/COLOR said:
I don't believe it justifies living in sin while claiming to be saved. People who proclaim "since we have a sin nature nothing can be done to stop sinning" are in great error.
The logical conclusion of the sin nature teaching is that it forces the responsibility of sin onto the nature as opposed to the choice. You cannot repent of a nature because it is not your fault. Original sin completely destroys the repentance message.

Inborn sin is also the root of many other errors because it teaches that man is disabled.


starfield;791513[/COLOR said:
] It's a pity for someone to believe that the sin and rebellion never stops after salvation. If so, what have they been saved from? The Lord knows His true followers.
starfield;791513[/COLOR said:
No one can serve two masters.
Yes, it is a tragedy.

starfield;791513[/COLOR said:
]
Mr. Skinski, if they have to cleanup themselves before coming to God, essentially spotted and pure through repentance, as you say, why would they still need to come to God for purification? This is the part of your doctrine that confuses me. :confused:


The Bible clearly teaches that you have to clean up yourself in order to come to God. The fallacy is believing that such action is what makes you pure because it doesn't. Purification is a result of the blood of Jesus Christ and yielding to the Spirit.

Cleaning ourselves up is simply a condition which God demands. An adulterer MUST forsake his adultery before coming to God, not afterwards. You don't come to God still murdering people, you stop it and come to God in broken repentance having forsaken your sins pleading for mercy.

Jas 4:7 Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.
Jas 4:8 Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded.
Jas 4:9 Be afflicted, and mourn, and weep: let your laughter be turned to mourning, and your joy to heaviness.
Jas 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

Isa 55:7 Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.

Jas 1:21 Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.

Today the churches teach that people receive the implanted word and then they lay apart all their filthiness. It is backwards.

starfield;791513[/COLOR said:
]
I believe repentance precedes salvation but it does not purify. Christ does the purification while we do the surrendering. It's about going to the cross with your chains of sin, Jesus breaking the chains, and then you go and sin no more (not putting the chains of sin back on after salvation and claiming to still be saved). Repentance is having the will to change and having a different view of sin.
I completely agree that Jesus purifies us. We are purified by faith as we yield to God for it is His light we are walking in.

Repentance is much more than simply having a will to change and a different view of sin. There are plenty of people addicted to pornography who despise their addiction, know it is wrong and have some sort of desire to quit. Yet they have not repented because they are still choosing to do indulge in that sin.

2Co 7:10 For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death.
2Co 7:11 For behold this selfsame thing, that ye sorrowed after a godly sort, what carefulness it wrought in you, yea, what clearing of yourselves, yea, what indignation, yea, what fear, yea, what vehement desire, yea, what zeal, yea, what revenge! In all things ye have approved yourselves to be clear in this matter.

Rom 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
Rom 6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
Rom 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
Rom 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.

True repentance results in the stopping of all know sin and this occurs prior salvation because you cannot be saved and sinning at the same time. The old man is put to death in repentance.

starfield;791513[/COLOR said:
starfield;791513[/COLOR said:
Isaiah 1:18- Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.
starfield;791513[/COLOR said:
See the Lord is calling you with your sins. He didn't say "wash your sins first through repentance then come". The surgeon removes the tumor, not the sick individual. Jesus cleanses us from sin, not you. You just need to take a step of faith and be willing to be saved.
Why leave out verse 16?

Isa 1:16 Wash you, make you clean; put away the evil of your doings from before mine eyes; cease to do evil;
Isa 1:17 Learn to do well; seek judgment, relieve the oppressed, judge the fatherless, plead for the widow.
Isa 1:18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.
Isa 1:19 If ye be willing and obedient, ye shall eat the good of the land:

The implanted word is what saves the soul but one must FIRST forsake all known sin.

Jas 1:21 Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.

Jam 1:21 and Isa 16-18 teach the same order. So does Act 3:19...

Act 3:19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;

The refreshing does not happen unless repentance and conversion occur first. The Prodigal Son left the pig pen BEFORE the Father restored Him.

Isa 55:7 teaches that sin is forsaken before forgiveness is granted.

Forsaking sin does not purify or save you, that is not what I am teaching, I am teaching that forsaking all known sin in repentance is absolutely mandatory condition that God has ordained that mus take place BEFORE one can receive the implanted word, the Spirit, be refreshed and raised to newness of life.




Thank you for your response Starfield.
 

starfield

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2009
3,393
58
48
#17
Technically sin is falling short or missing the mark so you could say a baby sins in this sense. Sins unto death are those willfully committed though and are rooted in a heart of iniquity and rebellion.

An infant yields to the passions and desires of the flesh. The passions and desires of the flesh is not a sin nature. That is the error. They clearly existed BEFORE Adam and Eve sinned and evident in Gen 3:6. God said the creation was good.

Mr. Skinski, you are free to believe in whatever you want but as for me, I believe in the bible that says "Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:" Romans 5:12.
Sin originated from Adam and is passed down to everyone therefore all have sinned. You can't compare babies to Adam. God created Adam perfect, sinless, but we are born spiritually dead. Ephesians 2:3-Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.


Jesus was not born with a sin nature and neither are we. It is a fiction. It was introduced into church orthodoxy by Augustine of Hippo. That is a proven fact anyone can research. Inborn sin was not taught by the early church, they taught sin as a choice.
Lol. Then I guess we are also born through the Holy Spirit since we don't have sin nature. :rolleyes:
How can you compare the fallen state of man with the divine nature of the Son of God? Jesus was born sinless; we are not born sinless because we are from the corrupt lineage, while Jesus wasn't.
I am sure you know why Jesus did not come from Joseph's seed.
There is sin of choice and sin by nature.


The logical conclusion of the sin nature teaching is that it forces the responsibility of sin onto the nature as opposed to the choice. You cannot repent of a nature because it is not your fault. Original sin completely destroys the repentance message.
No it doesn't. You're just fixated on that view. Through sanctification Christ removes the Adamic nature.

Inborn sin is also the root of many other errors because it teaches that man is disabled.
To some extent, man is disabled without Christ. This is why Christ died to purge our sins and gives us power to overcome sin. Why do you think some people struggle with sin? They say "I'm not going to sin today, I have repented" and the next minute they are committing that very same sin.

Repentance is much more than simply having a will to change and a different view of sin. There are plenty of people addicted to pornography who despise their addiction, know it is wrong and have some sort of desire to quit. Yet they have not repented because they are still choosing to do indulge in that sin.
Don't you think they might be struggling? Do you think it's that easy to quit something you have been addicted to for years? This is why one needs to call on God for salvation as well.

Why leave out verse 16?

Isa 1:16 Wash you, make you clean; put away the evil of your doings from before mine eyes; cease to do evil;
Isa 1:17 Learn to do well; seek judgment, relieve the oppressed, judge the fatherless, plead for the widow.
Isa 1:18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.
Isa 1:19 If ye be willing and obedient, ye shall eat the good of the land:

Isa 55:7 teaches that sin is forsaken before forgiveness is granted.
Repentance and faith in the Lord Jesus Christ is necessary for forgiveness and remission of sins. A thief can repent from stealing without seeking Christ. Does this mean they are saved? No.

Thank you for your response Starfield.
You're welcome. :)
 
Nov 26, 2011
3,818
62
0
#18
Mr. Skinski, you are free to believe in whatever you want but as for me, I believe in the bible that says "Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:" Romans 5:12. [/color]Sin originated from Adam and is passed down to everyone therefore all have sinned. You can't compare babies to Adam. God created Adam perfect, sinless, but we are born spiritually dead. Ephesians 2:3-Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.[/color]

Romans 5:12 does not say that Adam passed down sin to everyone and therefore everyone sins. You just read a verse and then said what it doesn't actually say.

Romans 5:12 says that sin entered the world through Adam and then death entered by this sin. The verse then says that death passed upon all men because all have sinned. That verse doesn't say sin passed onto all men, it doesn't say that at all, yet you are saying it does say that. Read it carefully please.

Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

Eph 2:3 does not say you are born spiritually dead either. Nor does Psalm 51 or Psalm 58 etc.



Lol. Then I guess we are also born through the Holy Spirit since we don't have sin nature. :rolleyes:
How can you compare the fallen state of man with the divine nature of the Son of God? Jesus was born sinless; we are not born sinless because we are from the corrupt lineage, while Jesus wasn't.
I am sure you know why Jesus did not come from Joseph's seed.
There is sin of choice and sin by nature.


That is gnostic doctrine and such things were heavily refuted by the early church. You have listened to teachers who have been taught such things in seminary. These teachings are rooted in Augustinian theology.

The early church did not teach inborn sin, they in fact refuted it and upheld that sin was the result of choice.

The Jews did not teach inborn sin but held that sin was the result of yielding to the passions of the flesh in violation of the conscience.

Augustine of Hippo taught that sin was a substance of the flesh and was that it was passed down via a seminal means and this doctrine was called Traducianism. This is what you believe.


Jesus was born of a virgin to fulfill the prophecy of Isaiah.

Mat 1:22 Now all this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying,
Mat 1:23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.

Isa 7:14 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.



 
Last edited:
Nov 26, 2011
3,818
62
0
#19
Can I ask, due to what I have heard on this website of late. In your opinion, what is a Christian's righteousness?
Thanks
Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
Rom 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
Rom 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Rom 4:1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?
Rom 4:2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
Rom 4:3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
Rom 4:4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
Rom 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
Rom 4:6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,

Heb 11:4 By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh.

Heb 11:7 By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.

Heb 11:8 By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.

Rom 4:11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also:
Rom 4:12 And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised.



True Faith = Obeying God from the heart = Yielding to the grace of God.

When an individual yields to God completely from the heart then God counts them as just by that faith. The reality of that faith will be evidenced by the outer works which true faith yields. That is why deeds prove faith.
 
May 30, 2012
241
0
0
#20
Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
Rom 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
Rom 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Rom 4:1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?
Rom 4:2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
Rom 4:3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
Rom 4:4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
Rom 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
Rom 4:6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,

Heb 11:4 By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh.

Heb 11:7 By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.

Heb 11:8 By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.

Rom 4:11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also:
Rom 4:12 And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised.



True Faith = Obeying God from the heart = Yielding to the grace of God.

When an individual yields to God completely from the heart then God counts them as just by that faith. The reality of that faith will be evidenced by the outer works which true faith yields. That is why deeds prove faith.
Thank you for your extended reply. Now, if I said to you that according to PURE doctrine as to HOW it should work I agree with you, you will I am sure be shocked. But there's one problem here, you are not allowing for the human flesh. If you are totally correct, you know the hat verse often gets quoted, and by you also
'If you love me obey my commandments,' which is to you and others, obeying the literal commands of Christ in the Gospels
So, according to pure biblical truth, which is what your post is based on, do I take it that you claim to 100% each and every day obey ALL of Christ's literal commands in the Gospels?
If you rply no, in honesty, are you going to hell? Or do you ultimately rely as David did, on God's unfailing love, better known now as grace?
Now I think I've got an idea as to your reply, the problem is then, who sets the yardstick as to what is, and is not acceptable sin/shortcomings?
You? According to the pure vwritten word? I woud suggest you do not have that insight or authortiy to do so, and if you did, you must condemn yourself to. But, in our humanity because we ae not robots we voften excuse our opwn shortcomings while preaching the pure, unadulteratec truth
At the end of the day, you rely on God's grace as much as does every other Christiasn, best to let God be God, who sees into the heart, and mind of the believer which you and I cannot do.
The misake of the Pharisees was just going by the literal letter, and according to that letter they asked Christ if the woman caught in adultery must be stoned to death
Now think about it, what would you have said/thought if you'd been standing there, the rigid, inlexible word condemned her, as you have used in your post to me the literal word, but Christ invoked what to him was the higher points of the law, mercy, compassion, faihfulness and of course love, and I hope we do not forget they are the higher points of the law, otherwise Skinski, you and me are both going to hell