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A
Our old man is to be rekoned dead..Our new self is where the Spirit dwells.
"Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, in order that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life" (Romans 6:4)
"I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me, and delivered Himself up for me" (Galatians 2:20)
Ephesians 4:22-24
22 that you put off, concerning your former conduct, the old man which grows corrupt according to the deceitful lusts, 23 and be renewed in the spirit of your mind, 24 and that you put on the new man which was created according to God, in true righteousness and holiness.
Romans 7:22-25
22 For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man. 23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. 24 O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? 25 I thank God—through Jesus Christ our Lord!
So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin.
1 John 1:8-9
8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
"Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, in order that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life" (Romans 6:4)
"I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me, and delivered Himself up for me" (Galatians 2:20)
Ephesians 4:22-24
22 that you put off, concerning your former conduct, the old man which grows corrupt according to the deceitful lusts, 23 and be renewed in the spirit of your mind, 24 and that you put on the new man which was created according to God, in true righteousness and holiness.
Romans 7:22-25
22 For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man. 23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. 24 O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? 25 I thank God—through Jesus Christ our Lord!
So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin.
1 John 1:8-9
8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
A
I guess youd have to ask if we confessed our sin once...and were cleansed and could say that we now have no sin
then youd have to figure that we were forgiven, then deceived, then the truth wouldnt be in us, therefore lost. So that
would mean that getting saved means getting lost....doesnt make much sense does it?
Did you compare the Ephesians 4 and the Romans 7 verses?
then youd have to figure that we were forgiven, then deceived, then the truth wouldnt be in us, therefore lost. So that
would mean that getting saved means getting lost....doesnt make much sense does it?
Did you compare the Ephesians 4 and the Romans 7 verses?
If God truly dwells in you then you have stopped all sin that is rooted in a defiled heart. You have been set free and made clean. The Holy Spirit does not dwell in a filthy vessel.
1Co_10:21 Ye cannot drink the cup of the Lord, and the cup of devils: ye cannot be partakers of the Lord's table, and of the table of devils.
1Jn 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
1Jn 3:10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.
1Jn 3:11 For this is the message that ye heard from the beginning, that we should love one another.
Rom 13:8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.
Rom 13:9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
Rom 13:10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.
1Co_10:21 Ye cannot drink the cup of the Lord, and the cup of devils: ye cannot be partakers of the Lord's table, and of the table of devils.
1Jn 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
1Jn 3:10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.
1Jn 3:11 For this is the message that ye heard from the beginning, that we should love one another.
Rom 13:8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.
Rom 13:9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
Rom 13:10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.
You are not born guilty. Nor are you born with sin inbred in you. Sin is not a substance but is a choice made where the individual willfully turns from God and goes their own way in order to serve their carnal desires.
You are not born dead. You died when you sinned.
Gen 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
Rom 7:8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.
Rom 7:9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
Rom 7:10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.
Rom 7:11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.
Rom 5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
Rom 5:14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
Adam disobeyed a direct command of God.
1Jn 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
Others sin without the law by violating their conscience.
Rom 2:12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;
Thus death reigned from Adam to Moses before the law was instituted.
Rom 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
Rom 2:15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another
Eve yielded to the lusts of her flesh.
Gen 3:6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.
The tree of knowledge of good and evil looked good.
Gen 2:9 And out of the ground made the LORD God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil.
Eve yielded to the lusts of her flesh.
1Jn 2:16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.
Eve yielded to the lusts of her flesh.
Jas 1:14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
Jas 1:15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.
The lusts of the flesh existed BEFORE Adam and Eve ate of the fruit. The lusts of the flesh existed from the creation of Adam. These lusts of the flesh are not evil, it is only evil when they are yielded to in a selfish manner thus violating loving God and loving your neighbour.
When Eve sinned there was no sinful nature suddenly created and passed on genetically. That is pure gnostic heresy.
Augustine taught that garbage because he was schooled in the philosophy of the Greeks and was also a follower of Mani.
Mani (prophet) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Augustine believed in dualism which taught that good and evil were equal in power and in constant battle. The material world was a result of this conflict and the soul of man was in the middle of this conflict. This philosophy taught that the material world, while not evil in and of itself, was a force to subjugate the force of light and thus was corrupt. Sinful actions were viewed as the result of a soul being entrapped in the flesh and that the substance inherent of sin was passed down through seminal means. Thus the goal of the gnostic was to extract themselves from the corruption of this world and attain the enlightenment of their soul.
Such philosophy was the opposite of what the early Christian's taught (and Judaism) because it denied that sin was rooted in the exercise of the free will of man. The Bible teaches that men are drawn away by the lusts of their flesh, not that the flesh is evil and necessitates sin.
Thus under gnostic philosophy the deeds done in the body are separated from the condition of the soul because the soul is trapped in the corrupted body. A gnostic could attain enlightenment of their soul while their deeds did not change. Although they taught that those of a higher spiritual path sought to cleanse their soul through outward penance (The Elect) those of a lower standard (The Hearers) could be cleansed by the prayers of the Elect.
Augustine was a Hearer for over 7 years. When Augustine converted to Christianity after hearing Ambrose he brought with him his gnostic foundation. By reading that interpretation into a couple of scriptures, namely Rom 5:12 and Heb 7:10 he deduced that sin was a substance of the flesh and was a result of the fall whereby all mankind were present in Adam (Rom 5:12 in the Vulgate and Heb 7:10 supported this contention in Agustine's mind) hence all shared in Adam's guilt and also became infected with the sin nature. Sin was thus passed down through seminal means (the male sperm) and this teaching is called Traducianism.
Thus actual sin, according to Augustine, was necessitated by the sin nature. Mankind was completely disabled and unable to turn to God because of this sin nature. Thus God had to offset this sin nature by grace so men could come to God. It was on this basis that Augustine built his doctrine of predestination where only the elect were effectively called by God.
The Westminster Confession article 6 says this...
I. Our first parents, being seduced by the subtilty and temptations of Satan, sinned, in eating the forbidden fruit.[1] This their sin, God was pleased, according to His wise and holy counsel, to permit, having purposed to order it to His own glory.[2]
II. By this sin they fell from their original righteousness and communion, with God,[3] and so became dead in sin,[4] and wholly defiled in all the parts and faculties of soul and body.[5]
III. They being the root of all mankind, the guilt of this sin was imputed;[6] and the same death in sin, and corrupted nature, conveyed to all their posterity descending from them by ordinary generation.[7]
IV. From this original corruption, whereby we are utterly indisposed, disabled, and made opposite to all good,[8] and wholly inclined to all evil,[9] do proceed all actual transgressions.[10]
V. This corruption of nature, during this life, does remain in those that are regenerated;[11] and although it be, through Christ, pardoned, and mortified; yet both itself, and all the motions thereof, are truly and properly sin.[12]
VI. Every sin, both original and actual, being a transgression of the righteous law of God, and contrary thereunto,[13] does in its own nature, bring guilt upon the sinner,[14] whereby he is bound over to the wrath of God,[15] and curse of the law,[16] and so made subject to death,[17] with all miseries spiritual,[18] temporal,[19] and eternal.[20]
Westminster Confession of Faith
Most denominations hold to the above article and it is taught in seminary. You are free to believe it but it is not Biblical. The early church taught no such thing and nor did the Jews.
This heretical doctrine redefines sin to be a disease instead of a criminal act against God and thus nullifies true repentance. If you believe in your heart that our sinful actions are the result of the condition in which you were born there is no way you can be truly sorry for them because those action were not rooted in your free will choice.
The saved in sins message, which is preached almost universally today, is firmly established on the foundation of this error. Satan has indeed deceived the world.
I put together the following 90 minute documentary based on the audio and research of Chris Hill. I duplicated his research, found it to be accurate, and put it to video. This video documents exactly where this insidious doctrine originated and exactly how it was adopted into Christian orthodoxy. You'll find an abundance of early church writings presented which are all carefully annotated. I recommend people actually read the Ante-nicene Fathers for themselves (Ante-Nicene Fathers – VOL I – IX : HolyBooks.com – download free ebooks)
[video]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KVQ1t5i058Q[/video]
If you are born already guilty and you sin is a result of being born evil then your sin is ultimately not your fault. God is twisted into a tyrant and we are mere pawns on a chessboard which this tyrant moves around as he pleases.
The truth is that we have the full capability of obeying God. Sin is a crime and is rooted in the free will choice of an individual who chooses to yield to their lusts in disobedience to God. Sin is a crime not a disease.
A sin nature is something that develops in an individual who repeatedly submits to sin, it becomes habitual and bondage is the result. We are not born in bondage to sin, we sold ourselves into it by sinning. We suppressed the light of God and went our own way.
Babies and young children are not sinners. They are innocent and neutral and they are subject to the lusts of their flesh. Sin is only imputed when they violate the law of conscience and willfully submit to evil with full the knowledge that it is wrong. People are inclined to sin due to not understanding the consequences of such action as well as being raised up to serve self (babies cry and are given what they want).
Sin is always a result of a free independent will yielding to the lusts of the flesh in disobedience to the light of God. Sin is not necessitated by some sort of sin nature as taught in gnosticism.
so tell me...have you stopped sinning...so that you NEVER SIN?
when someone quotes 1John 3:9, they need to take into account the previous verses especially 1John 3:2-3 and that is that Beloved, now are we the sons of God and it does NOT YET APPEAR what WE SHALL BE..for we know that when He shall appear we shall be like Him...and every man that has this hope in Him, purifies himself...
it is not an instant purity...it is a process of turning to God in love through Jesus and turning from sins..the commentators agree that the sin that such a person does not commit is habitual sin..not that true christians no longer sin..they do not remain in their sins without repenting..for anyone to say they are without sin is a lie according to God's word
when someone quotes 1John 3:9, they need to take into account the previous verses especially 1John 3:2-3 and that is that Beloved, now are we the sons of God and it does NOT YET APPEAR what WE SHALL BE..for we know that when He shall appear we shall be like Him...and every man that has this hope in Him, purifies himself...
it is not an instant purity...it is a process of turning to God in love through Jesus and turning from sins..the commentators agree that the sin that such a person does not commit is habitual sin..not that true christians no longer sin..they do not remain in their sins without repenting..for anyone to say they are without sin is a lie according to God's word
M
We just went in a circle. It goes back to you are telling me God dwells with sin in His temple. There has to be a reason God can abide in you and you in Him with all that sin hanging around. Sin repent, sin repent, sin repent there has to be something that is missing.... Oh, yes, you keep leaving out love.
Did you know that if you don't know love the word says you don't know God?
David ate that which was not lawful to eat and it was not counted as sin. There must be a reason God does not count it as sin but you still do.
Did you know that if you don't know love the word says you don't know God?
David ate that which was not lawful to eat and it was not counted as sin. There must be a reason God does not count it as sin but you still do.
C
God cannot dwell in sin, although we are sinful people, as a christian, do you gossip, slander another, are you jealous of what they have? Do you compare yourself to someone else's life? These are sins, now how God is able to dwell in us, is only by the blood of Jesus, His blood covers our sin, so God does not see our sin, He see's the blood, like paul said should we continue to sin, no way, but the truth of the matter is we are not capable to stop sinning until the day God makes us perfect and we are in our glorified bodies, what we do until then , is conform our mind to His, and strive to be holy as He is holy
A
Sinski im sure u have an answer to this ...id just like to hear it please.
Romans 5:12 Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men[a] because all sinned— 13 for sin indeed was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not counted where there is no law. 14 Yet death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those whose sinning was not like the transgression of Adam, who was a type of the one who was to come.
15 But the free gift is not like the trespass. For if many died through one man's trespass, much more have the grace of God and the free gift by the grace of that one man Jesus Christ abounded for many. 16 And the free gift is not like the result of that one man's sin. For the judgment following one trespass brought condemnation, but the free gift following many trespasses brought justification. 17 For if, because of one man's trespass, death reigned through that one man, much more will those who receive the abundance of grace and the free gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man Jesus Christ.
18 Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness[c] leads to justification and life for all men. 19 For as by the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, so by the one man's obedience the many will be made righteous. 20 Now the law came in to increase the trespass, but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more, 21 so that, as sin reigned in death, grace also might reign through righteousness leading to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
leave augustine and the others out of it....Your claims: we didnt die in Adam...and have no sin nature.
With that logic...then the second Adams rightousness and death wont atone for you......will it?
Romans 5:12 Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men[a] because all sinned— 13 for sin indeed was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not counted where there is no law. 14 Yet death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those whose sinning was not like the transgression of Adam, who was a type of the one who was to come.
15 But the free gift is not like the trespass. For if many died through one man's trespass, much more have the grace of God and the free gift by the grace of that one man Jesus Christ abounded for many. 16 And the free gift is not like the result of that one man's sin. For the judgment following one trespass brought condemnation, but the free gift following many trespasses brought justification. 17 For if, because of one man's trespass, death reigned through that one man, much more will those who receive the abundance of grace and the free gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man Jesus Christ.
18 Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness[c] leads to justification and life for all men. 19 For as by the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, so by the one man's obedience the many will be made righteous. 20 Now the law came in to increase the trespass, but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more, 21 so that, as sin reigned in death, grace also might reign through righteousness leading to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
leave augustine and the others out of it....Your claims: we didnt die in Adam...and have no sin nature.
With that logic...then the second Adams rightousness and death wont atone for you......will it?
M
Perhaps we have different ideas of what sin is;
If love fulfills the law how can we then say we are lawbreakers?
I thought being born of God cleansed us.
Yes, if we start trying to stack up ourselves to Jesus we would fill like filthy rags. But in the day of our judgment God is going to look at our heart.
When I stood in the presence of God my heart changed all that garbage was taken from me, the jealousy, envy, covetousness -- once I was full of fear but in love there is no fear.
I think everyone on here knows love because they know God. You are not lawbreakers!!!
It is like self flagellation. beating yourself up for some perceived offense. You are saints not sinners.
If love fulfills the law how can we then say we are lawbreakers?
I thought being born of God cleansed us.
Yes, if we start trying to stack up ourselves to Jesus we would fill like filthy rags. But in the day of our judgment God is going to look at our heart.
When I stood in the presence of God my heart changed all that garbage was taken from me, the jealousy, envy, covetousness -- once I was full of fear but in love there is no fear.
I think everyone on here knows love because they know God. You are not lawbreakers!!!
It is like self flagellation. beating yourself up for some perceived offense. You are saints not sinners.