Does the Holy Bible Teach: Is Jesus Christ God????

[kenisyes]

I believe Jesus claimed to be Son of God, and no Scripture reference referring to the Old Testament can be found that prove He claimed He was "God" rather than "Son of God", because the Hebrew language does not allow for it. The Son of God is not the same as God. You are quite correct, just to be the Son of God was blasphemy. That's what I believed Jesus claimed and why He meant they are one, as John says in the first chapter.

Bereshit Rabbah (Jewish commentary on Genesis) uses the phrase "make yourself to be God" in regard to Hiram King of Tyre. There, the Hebrew word used is eloh, not elohim, the title of God. Presumably, this is the phrase translated to Greek here. This is the word in Ps. 82:6. It means Jesus is making Himself equal with God-substance, which is to say He is of one substance with, or He is saying He is "a god". It therefore does not prove the Jews thought He was "elohim", the proper name of God (always in plural). As you pointed out, they did not need the stronger claim to stone Him. This was the opinion of the Jews anyway, and Jesus would never have claimed to be "a god". Again, since another argument exists, this does not prove it.

 

[GraceBeUntoYou]

I believe Jesus claimed to be Son of God, and no Scripture reference referring to the Old Testament can be found that prove He claimed He was "God" rather than "Son of God", because the Hebrew language does not allow for it. The Son of God is not the same as God. You are quite correct, just to be the Son of God was blasphemy. That's what I believed Jesus claimed and why He meant they are one, as John says in the first chapter.

Bereshit Rabbah (Jewish commentary on Genesis) uses the phrase "make yourself to be God" in regard to Hiram King of Tyre. There, the Hebrew word used is eloh, not elohim, the title of God. Presumably, this is the phrase translated to Greek here. This is the word in Ps. 82:6. It means Jesus is making Himself equal with God-substance, which is to say He is of one substance with, or He is saying He is "a god". It therefore does not prove the Jews thought He was "elohim", the proper name of God (always in plural). As you pointed out, they did not need the stronger claim to stone Him. This was the opinion of the Jews anyway, and Jesus would never have claimed to be "a god". Again, since another argument exists, this does not prove it.

[FONT=&quot]Jesus has just spoken not about His union with the Father's purpose, but with His Father's power (vv. 28-29). Christ has said that no one can snatch those that the Father has given Him from His hands, and that He gives eternal life to His sheep. He then repeats this statement, but this time, it is the Father who retains them -- the Father who is "greater than all." And it is in this context that He says, "I and the Father are One." Jesus equates Himself to the Father, who is "greater than all," in both giving eternal life to the sheep and in the power to hold them fast.[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]The Jews knew that the Father was greater than all, but they had rebelled against Jesus saying that He and the Father shared this power to preserve the saints, and it is that which prompted the Jews to pick up stones (v. 31), and charge Him with blasphemy (v. 34).[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]But it is the next eight verses of the chapter have sparked much discussion,[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Jesus answered them, “I showed you many good works from the Father; for which of them are you stoning Me?” The Jews answered Him, “For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy; and because You, being a man, make Yourself out to be God.” Jesus answered them, “Has it not been written in your Law, ‘I SAID, YOU ARE GODS’? If he called them gods, to whom the word of God came (and the Scripture cannot be broken), do you say of Him, whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, ‘You are blaspheming,’ because I said, ‘I am the Son of God’? If I do not do the works of My Father, do not believe Me; but if I do them, though you do not believe Me, believe the works, so that you may know and understand that the Father is in Me, and I in the Father.” Therefore they were seeking again to seize Him, and He eluded their grasp. (John 10:32-39, NASB)[/FONT]
​

[FONT=&quot]If the interpretation which you espouse is correct, and it was common practice to refer the judges of Psalms as gods, which in and of itself not thought to be blasphemy, why did the Jewish authorities object when this term was applied to Jesus? If Christ was only saying, “I’m a god just like you guys are called ‘gods,’” then the reactions in vv. 31, 34, and 39 simply do not fit, nor do His statements which are found in vv. 28-30, where Christ claimed far more than merely being "a god" in the sense the Judges were "gods.” The judges of Psalm 82 are not said to grant eternal life to their followers, nor to be equal to [/FONT](or to be "One with") the Father in their power to hold them fast.

When rightly understood this is a common form of rabbinic argumentation known as qal wahwmer, also commonly known as “lesser to the greater” (c.f. Matthew 6:26, 11:22, 2 Corinthians 3:7-11). Simply put, if it is permissible to call men “gods” simply because they were the vehicles of the word of God, how much more admissible is it to call Him who is the Word (John 1:1), the Son of God, “God”?

 

[OFM]

John 10:30 Jesus Said "I and The Father are 1" They Must be on see 1 John 5:9-13....

 

[OFM]

see how Jesus Clearly States the Father is In Him and Jesus In The Father they are One As Jesus Said.Jesus and Our Heavenly Father are Perfect and "They" never ever lie they are all Spiritual Truh and Rightousness amen allways amen!!!!!!!!!!!!!.........

 

[kenisyes]

[FONT=&quot]Jesus has just spoken not about His union with the Father's purpose, but with His Father's power (vv. 28-29). Christ has said that no one can snatch those that the Father has given Him from His hands, and that He gives eternal life to His sheep. He then repeats this statement, but this time, it is the Father who retains them -- the Father who is "greater than all." And it is in this context that He says, "I and the Father are One." Jesus equates Himself to the Father, who is "greater than all," in both giving eternal life to the sheep and in the power to hold them fast.[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]The Jews knew that the Father was greater than all, but they had rebelled against Jesus saying that He and the Father shared this power to preserve the saints, and it is that which prompted the Jews to pick up stones (v. 31), and charge Him with blasphemy (v. 34).[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]But it is the next eight verses of the chapter have sparked much discussion,[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Jesus answered them, “I showed you many good works from the Father; for which of them are you stoning Me?” The Jews answered Him, “For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy; and because You, being a man, make Yourself out to be God.” Jesus answered them, “Has it not been written in your Law, ‘I SAID, YOU ARE GODS’? If he called them gods, to whom the word of God came (and the Scripture cannot be broken), do you say of Him, whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, ‘You are blaspheming,’ because I said, ‘I am the Son of God’? If I do not do the works of My Father, do not believe Me; but if I do them, though you do not believe Me, believe the works, so that you may know and understand that the Father is in Me, and I in the Father.” Therefore they were seeking again to seize Him, and He eluded their grasp. (John 10:32-39, NASB)[/FONT]
​

[FONT=&quot]If the interpretation which you espouse is correct, and it was common practice to refer the judges of Psalms as gods, which in and of itself not thought to be blasphemy, why did the Jewish authorities object when this term was applied to Jesus? If Christ was only saying, “I’m a god just like you guys are called ‘gods,’” then the reactions in vv. 31, 34, and 39 simply do not fit, nor do His statements which are found in vv. 28-30, where Christ claimed far more than merely being "a god" in the sense the Judges were "gods.” The judges of Psalm 82 are not said to grant eternal life to their followers, nor to be equal to [/FONT](or to be "One with") the Father in their power to hold them fast.

When rightly understood this is a common form of rabbinic argumentation known as qal wahwmer, also commonly known as “lesser to the greater” (c.f. Matthew 6:26, 11:22, 2 Corinthians 3:7-11). Simply put, if it is permissible to call men “gods” simply because they were the vehicles of the word of God, how much more admissible is it to call Him who is the Word (John 1:1), the Son of God, “God”?

I always understood eloh to represent the gods of the pagans, as I have seen this word used in other contexts, and Ps. 82 was the first example of the use of the word "eloh" that came to mind. I agree with your argument; the context of Ps. 82 supports it. It is about human judges, not about gods.

But it does not matter in its relation to the point we are discussing. If Jesus claims a title that can be given to certain men, then we cannot use the passage to prove that Jesus is claiming to be God. He is simply claiming to be greater than a judge. As you put it, "it is permissible to call the Son of God, God", just as it is permissible to call a judge, God.

For our purposes, we have said nearly the same thing. Eloh is not a title of God (as is elohim), but a title of judge. So we cannot say that this passage has Jesus convincing the multitudes He is claiming a title of God. As you pointed out, John is more specific, that He claimed to be the Son of God.

 

[kenisyes]

see how Jesus Clearly States the Father is In Him and Jesus In The Father they are One As Jesus Said.Jesus and Our Heavenly Father are Perfect and "They" never ever lie they are all Spiritual Truh and Rightousness amen allways amen!!!!!!!!!!!!!.........

I just erased this from my post to Gracebeunto you. To say that two things in each other are equals is a matter of Greek logic, and as gracebe.. points out, Jesus is using Hebrew logic in the passage. Even in an earthly son, who is on business for his father, the son is "in" the father legally while he does the business. The father is always in the son in the DNA. The two uses of in are different. Jesus is in the Father when He is about His Father's business (which is all the time), and the Father is present in Jesus much as Jesus lives in us. The two cannot be equated with certainty.

 

[jkalyna]

JOHN 17 SAYS SO, THEY ARE ONE. JESUS SAID HE WAS BEFORE AT THE BEGINNING. AND ISAIAH 48: 16 AND 17 SAY SO TOGETHER AS THE TRINITY. THERE ARE MANY SCRIPTURES WHERE THE CHRIST SAID, ABOUT THIS IN THE NEW TESTAMENT. WHEN YOU FIND THEM I KNOW THEM, BUT POST THEM. YOUR HUNT FOR THE PRICELESS TREASURE .

 

[jkalyna]

JOHN 14:9 ANYONE WHO HAS SEEN ME HAS SEEN THE FATHER. HOW CAN YOU SAY " SHOW US THE FATHER." KJV.

 

[kenisyes]

I assume you mean Jon 17:21-22, jkalyna? The rest of the verse is "that they (meaning all of us) may be one" in the same way. If you want to say that the verse proves Jesus and God are identical, then you and I are identical, since we are both part of the same group for which He is praying. He has to mean "oneness in spirit", or in intention, or some such thing.

I agree, Is. 48:16 is probably Jesus speaking through Isaiah, based on John 1. But He still does not say He is God, only that He is sent by God and the Holy Spirit.

John 14:9 won't do it either. If I make a t-shirt with my wife's picture on it, and wear it, anyone who sees me will see my wife. In this verse Jesus claims to be an image of the Father. We covered the oneness issue the other day.

All of these are highly suggestive that Jesus is God. I believe Jesus is God. My issue stems from the difficulties experienced by Messianic Jews whom I have known, attempting to decide what to call Jesus when talking to unsaved Jews. They invariably decide to call Him the "Son of God" and never "God". When I started researching this many years ago, I found the same thing. When you think in Hebrew, you have only three words for God: Elohim - God the creator, Yahweh/Jehovah - God the Father, eloh - anyone with power, including many humans. None will answer to the identity of Jesus (Savior, King to Come, etc.). If we could find a Scripture, Old or New Testament (since almost all the New is written by Jews based or based on Jesus' ministry in Israel), we could use that to construct a way to introduce the concept of the God-ship of Jesus in Hebrew, and the problem would be solved. The NT uses the Greek word theos, which answers to our word for God quite nicely, but they are also very careful, so it seems, to allow a back door in each passage, that a person desiring not to believe Jesus is God could use to get out seeing it "proved".

 

[kenisyes]

I had another thought last night, that if we could find a Christian church or group conducting basic doctrine classes in Hebrew, we could simply investigate how they cover the trinity. One cannot explain the trinity without saying Jesus is God. But I doubt there are any. There are many Christian churches in the Holy Land, but none conduct services in Hebrew, as far as I know. If one traces the development of the doctrine of the trinity, one finds that those who developed it, were pretty against the idea that Jews could ever be saved, unless they stopped being Jewish.

 

[Mediate]

'Father, father, why have you forsaken me'.

For a moment, 'God', (Adonai, Yahweh, Jehovah) turned His back on Jesus. Therefore, they are not ONE except in will.

'I and the Lord are one'.

28 So there is no difference between Jews and Gentiles, between slaves and free people, between men and women; you are all one in union with Christ Jesus.

One, not as physical entities, but one in will and action, thought and spirit. (I am not physically one with Jesus. He and I are separate people)

The Kingdom of God is not something we can point to. It is within us.

 

[RickShafer]

The jews used the first line of psalms to identify those certain psalms.
'My God, my God, why have you forsaken me'......is the
first line of a psalm.
The Jews didn't number the psalms,
how do you know Jesus wasn't saying this on the cross to show
He was the fulfillment of that certain prophetic psalm?
After all, He came to fulfill all righteousness.

 

[OFM]

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!so every one agrees Jesus Christ Is God Amen!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!..............

 

[kenisyes]

The jews used the first line of psalms to identify those certain psalms.
'My God, my God, why have you forsaken me'......is the
first line of a psalm.
The Jews didn't number the psalms,
how do you know Jesus wasn't saying this on the cross to show
He was the fulfillment of that certain prophetic psalm?
After all, He came to fulfill all righteousness.

I'm not sure that's true about numbering the psalms. Jews did not number the Bible chapter and verse, that's true. I am attempting to add, as an attachment, a screenshot from a page of my Hebrew Bible, turned to Ps. 117 and 118, so you can see two samples in one picture. I hope it comes through in the finished post. If it does not, I willnot know how to fix it.

note three lines from the top, extreme right, the Hebrew letters standing alone, qoph, yod, zayin (reading right to left). this is qoph=100, yod=10, zayin=7, thus 117.

note top of page 875, extreme left (typeset incorrectly, there is a space at the right), the characters qoph yod chet, chet =8, so this is 118.

our numbers are added in our number system

 

[jkalyna]

I DOES IN THE FIRST CHAPTER OF COLOSSIONS. VERY EXPLAINATORY FROM THE L IVING BIBLE, THE AMPLIFIED.

 

[OFM]

i love the applified version it takes longer but highlights so much so very much alot highly excellent well................

 

[resurrection33]

I believe Jesus Christ is God in flesh

 

[OFM]

amen i agree
with the above
post.........

 

[AngelFlower]

Amen Glory to God in the Highest, God teaches us all things that we need to know

 

[OFM]

Amen Glory to God in the Highest, God teaches us all things that we need to know

sister angel-flower your very much alot highly spiritually write/right on amen <1,357.8