The Justice and Love of God

[BLC]

Let's talk about the justice of God in relationship to the love of God that is esteem so highly. In relationship to God, who is love and is just (1Jn 2:8, Deut 32:4), which comes first with God, justice or love? Does the justice of God supersede His love or does love supersede His justice? Justice and judgment are the habitation of God's throne (Ps 89:14, 97:2) along with mercy (Prov 20:28, Is 16:5). When God the Father sent His Son to be a sacrifice for sin, was that just an act of love or was it superseded by God's justice, meaning that sin that separated man from God, had to be dealt with so that a holy God, who is perfect and just, could accept sinners who had been conceived in sin and come short of the glory of God because of that sin (Ps 51:5, Rom 3:23)?

God did not need to be motivated by His own love to act in terms of perfect justice to make a way for sinful man to be reconciled to Himself. But because He is love, God sent His Son. We, as sinners, are not reconciled to God because of love but rather because of the justice of God that was met through the sacrifice of His Son. Sin was paid for and judged by the Son through death. God loved the world because God is love. If love came before justice in God's plan to provide redemption for man through His Son, then all men would be saved by the sacrifice of Christ. The reason that people are confused about a loving God sending people to hell is because they do not understand the justice of God. Many believers are having problems with the justice of God as well.

The love of God does not send the wicked dead to the lake of fire (the second death), it is the justice of God that does that. The next time someone says to you that they don't believe that a loving God sends people to hell, you can tell them that a loving God doesn't do that but a holy, righteous and just God does, who provided a way through His own Son for all men to be saved. Love does not save anyone. The justice of God that was met through the work done and finished on the cross by Jesus Christ has been provided as salvation for sinful men. The love of God has no keeping power, we are kept by the power of God unto salvation (1Pt 1:5). Justice is not the result of the love of God, love is the result of God being just.

God's justice could have dealt with sin by removing all sinners off the face of the earth and He came very close to doing that with the flood. But God decided in His justice to provide a plan of redemption through grace and Noah found that grace in the eyes of the Lord and only eight souls were saved and spared from destruction. God decided through His own righteousness to be merciful and gracious to sinful man and provide a propitiation (a mercy seat) for sin through His Son (Rom 3:23, 1Jn 2:2,4:10). God provided this plan of redemption for man and to man through His Son as an act of justice. The justice of God was not subject or in subjection to the love of God. The love of God was totally in subjection to the justice of God that provided justification for man through the redemption that was found in His Son (Rom 3:24, 1Cor 1:30).

Our justification by grace and the blood of Christ was not the result of the love of God but rather the justice of God. The justice of God has made it possible for the Holy Spirit to shed that love abroad in our hearts toward the lost and toward one another. There would be no love toward sinners without the justice of God making it possible. When we as believers think of reconciliation, redemption, propitiation, regeneration, justification and salvation, we must think of them being accomplished by the justice of God and presented to man through the love of God. All the work was done through justice and presented to man by the love of God. The reason that love is what it is, is because justice did what it did. Love is what justice did. When we love one another as Christ has loved us (Eph 5:2,25), our love is according to the justice of God that worked out every problem between man and God as a finished work.

[Densetzu]

Let me ask you this:

Is it Justice to repay 80 years worth of sin with a million years of constant torment?
Is it Justice to repay 80 years of worth of sin with an eternity of torment?

If hell is an eternal torture chamber as you seem to believe, how can you call God just, let alone merciful?

[BLC]

I speak this as a man. God had created man perfect without sin from the dust of the ground. Man disobeyed God and sin entered the human race through Adam. God looked down from heaven and saw that the imaginations of the thoughts of the man He had created were only evil continually. It grieved Him so much in His heart that it repented Him that He had created man (Gen 6:5,6). Was it fair to God that the man He had created without sin would sin against the One who created him and have that sin transferred afterwards to everyone born? God did not have to provide a sacrifice that would take all of man's sin and crucify it through death and put it away, but He did.

He did not have to send His Son to be rejected and despised by man and then be bruised and scourged by the Father just so that sinful and wicked men like you and me could be redeemed from sin, but He did. And you sit there and charge God with being unjust when He provided a way of escape, when He was made in the likeness of sinful flesh and bore our sins upon His own body and died in our place! And you want me to validate your accusation against the justice of God and the justification of man that was provided through His own blood!

You think that the lake of fire, the second death, is unjust to those who have rejected Christ through unbelief and through their wicked works their entire life when all they had to do is humble themselves and believe on the One God provided as the Lamb to take away the sins of the world? God's mercy was available every single day of their life while they were living on earth and they refused it, they rejected it, they despised it, yet He was willing that none of them should perish. His will was for them to believe upon His Son and that is why He sent Him. That all men might believe upon the Son of God for salvation.

John 3:36 'He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him'.

Gen 18:25 'That be far from thee to do after this manner, to slay the righteous with the wicked: and that the righteous should be as the wicked, that be far from thee: Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right'?

[Stand_Up_4_God]

I didn't read what all y'all posted, I'm too tired and not feeling up for reading right now lol, but seriously here's the thing.... we have a choice heaven or hell, we choose where we spend eternity, and we choose weather or not we accept Christ. Justice is the question, and love as well.... okay well, is it just that God had to send His only Son to die for the whole world? NO!!!!! It's not just at all, Adam and Eve started the whole sin thing by disobeying God. Plain and simple. God gave His only Son, out of an act of love for us, and Jesus didn't have to go and die. You know, it's sad that Jesus had to pay for OUR sins when He was totally sinless.

To justify our wrongs, He paid the ultimate price, personally I don't think it does justice that Jesus had to die for us, we don't deserve the chance to accept Him. Yet out of love, He died for us, and gives us free will to accept or reject Him. In the end, we all choose our own final ''resting'' place...it's rest for the saved, and torment for the lost, they put themselves there by rejecting Christ. The mercy of God is poured out upon all daily, in the fact they get to live another day. If they just believe,accpept,repent, and confess Him as Lord, they don't have to die and go to hell, bottom line. Simple as that.

As for those whom doubt Christ, and say us belivers and Christians are crazy, well maybe we are to them...but you know something, it's better to have hope while alive, and joy,peace of mind, etc. than not at all right? okay then. Also, we have proof we aren't crazy or making things up, we feel the Holy Spirit within us. We can explain miracles that have happned to others, and even to ourselves! Let everyone believe as they will, but, if you wish to contest anything, take it up with God, as His word is true.

[Stand_Up_4_God]

For those that doubt hell is real, or that it is an eternal place of punishment, look it up in a Bible dictionary. Hell:the place of eternal punishment for the unrighteous. Because of the symbolic nature of the language, some people question whether hell consist of actual fire. Such reasoning should bring no comfort to the lost. The reality is greater than the symbol. The Bible exhausts human language in describing heaven and hell. The former is more glorious, and the latter more terrible, than language can express.

I've known many people that have seen hell, in a dream. The things they can tell you about it, will leave you with no doubt it's real and just what the Bible says it's like. I won't go and tell what all I was told, but after our preacher suffered a heart attack, and three strokes, while he was in the hospital God showed him many things, and I'll put it this way, although I'm saved, and others in the church are too....it gave us chills and butterflies in our stomach att he thought of what's to come for those whom reject Christ.

Hell is real, satan is real, and what the Bible says about, and people have seen as God showed them about hell, IS REAL.

Come one people, think about it, you reject THE BEST ever, Christ, and you don't love Him, you do wrong, you think that hell will be pleseant? you think that it'll be fun, oh lets go play cards, baseball, or whatever else? I think no! The punishment in hell, is brought upon those that end up there. They bring it all upon themself. It's no fairytale, that's for sure.

[jjkg]

Is it Justice to repay 80 years worth of sin with a million years of constant torment?
Is it Justice to repay 80 years of worth of sin with an eternity of torment?

I believe it is complete justice to allow others their eternal destiny. To supercede their choice in life to live it without God by ultimately making them live their eternal lives with God they so denied while they were alive is absurd. God ultimate honors the decisions of those who chose to live their lives without Him by allowing them to live their eternities the same. And I believe the torment is not necessarily physical. I truly believe the true torment is of having to live an eternity of absolute regret and remorse once those that died without Christ realize that He is real and understand that God is love. To have that essence of love removed forever once you experience who God really is after death is truly hell. Having to live with the idea that what could have been so easily theirs (a relationship with God), they allowed to slip through the cracks their entire lives. Truly hell.

[Densetzu]

Originally Posted by jjkg

I believe it is complete justice to allow others their eternal destiny. To supercede their choice in life to live it without God by ultimately making them live their eternal lives with God they so denied while they were alive is absurd. God ultimate honors the decisions of those who chose to live their lives without Him by allowing them to live their eternities the same. And I believe the torment is not necessarily physical. I truly believe the true torment is of having to live an eternity of absolute regret and remorse once those that died without Christ realize that He is real and understand that God is love. To have that essence of love removed forever once you experience who God really is after death is truly hell. Having to live with the idea that what could have been so easily theirs (a relationship with God), they allowed to slip through the cracks their entire lives. Truly hell.

Ah, not what I was talking about though. I'm not saying that God won't punish sin, or that those who lived life without God will spend the afterlife with him. By all means, I don't think God would be worth worshiping if he let the horrors that some humans commit to each other go utterly unpunished--if, he is not, in a word, Just.

I'm just pondering whether those who believe in the traditional fire-and-brimstone-for-eternity version of hell have ever stopped to consider if that punishment really fits the crime.

[jjkg]

Gotcha Densetzu. I guess I should maybe read the entire context of the post.

[jjkg]

You guys can correct me if I'm wrong in this, but I was having a conversation with my kids one day and we were discussing hell. My daughter, at the time, was about 7 or 8. I took her into the bathroom, told her to be quiet and proceeded to shut off the light. It was completely dark, no light, no companionship. I told her that God is good and people will not be able to enjoy His goodness apart from Him. God is light and people will not be able to enjoy such light apart from Him. I used the biblical description of hell as 'outer darkness' to try and illustrate it for her. I told her that God is love, but apart from God, those in hell will not be able to experience that love on any level. Everything good comes from God, from his beautiful creation to the fellowship of believers, to the grace and mercy of Jesus Christ. There will be none of that for those in hell. No joy, no happiness, no fellowship, no beautiful creation to look at, no contentment in His love, no peace of mind in knowing Jesus Christ, none of that. Hell is truly the absence of anything good. Now like God, I wasn't trying to scare her, but like God, I love her enough to tell her the truth. God did that for us, whether it be a life that accepted the sacrifice of Jesus Christ or one that simply denied it. Now we may speak of eternal hell as (external punishment and torture), but an eternity without Christ after experiencing Him in this life would be hell enough. I think when those that die without Him, finally get to see and experience the essence of who He truly is just to be told to depart from Him, then they too, will have all of eternity to experience that regret of what could have simply been theirs forever.

Originally Posted by Densetzu

Let me ask you this:

Is it Justice to repay 80 years worth of sin with a million years of constant torment?
Is it Justice to repay 80 years of worth of sin with an eternity of torment?

If hell is an eternal torture chamber as you seem to believe, how can you call God just, let alone merciful?

First of all I'd like to say it makes no sense to make an Omnipotent, Omniscient, Self-existent, and Immutable God subject to one of His own creations.. It's just illogical.

Jesus had no problem saying that you could spent eternity in a place of suffering.
Why should we have a problem with it?

Matt 25:46 - And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.
everlasting comes from the Greek word: aionios it means eternal, for ever.. Meaning it's not a million years of constant torment.. It is eternal torment.

How can you call God just? Simply.. Sin must be punished whether it's in the blood of Christ or a pesron's self to pay for their unbelief in hell.Now were they unable to trust Jesus? No.. They are perfectly able to trust Jesus just like you and I are, did they chose to? They chose to live life how they wanted to and spit in the Creator's face... God cannot stand sin, it goes against His nature that is why He had to forsake Jesus momentarily when Jesus became our sin on the Cross. So how can God spend eternity with someone whilst they have sin in them?.. He can't as long as the sin stays.. God cannot.

How can you call God merciful?
- Romans 5:8; But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us

John 3:16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
etc etc. could go on forever posting scriptures..
The point is.. Why would God become flesh, die for you.. Me...And everyone else in the World?.. Why?
Why would God die for His own Creation?...You can't explain it other then love, mercy, grace.
That is just one of the many reasons you can "call God merciful?".

God just so happens to love somebody so much that if they don't want to spend eternity with Him, then He won't make them.. He doesn't force His love on anyone. It just so happens the only other place to dwell in eternity is Hell, which is punishment.. Eternal separation from God..

[1jn32]

http://www.insightsofgod.com/

The above website has many testimonials of heaven and hell from real after life experiences as well as dreams and visions. This is a very sobering website.

[1jn32]

www.unleavenedbreadministries.org

The above website if full of valuable unleavened teaching. I recommend both the Sovereign God book or audio mp3 and the Hidden Manna book or videos. These people will send you this material free if you ask them, or you can just download them. God has provided everything we need to manifest Jesus in us and completely overcome sin. He is returning for a bride without spot or blemish. Seek the baptism of the Holy Spirit.

[Densetzu]

Originally Posted by Young_Gideon

Jesus had no problem saying that you could spent eternity in a place of suffering.
Why should we have a problem with it?

Matt 25:46 - And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.
everlasting comes from the Greek word: aionios it means eternal, for ever.. Meaning it's not a million years of constant torment.. It is eternal torment.

Aionios' meaning is debated, so that's not necessarily the case, and even so, that doesn't use the word torment, and certainly not fire and brimstone torture. Once again, I'm not saying that God is unmerciful for punishing evil, I'm saying that if you believe what certain Fundamentalists do, then God's mercy seems like a crock.

How can you call God merciful?
- Romans 5:8; But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us

Well this is true, but it's also a quote from Paul's letters, and Paul never once spoke of hell.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
etc etc. could go on forever posting scriptures..
The point is.. Why would God become flesh, die for you.. Me...And everyone else in the World?.. Why?
Why would God die for His own Creation?...You can't explain it other then love, mercy, grace.
That is just one of the many reasons you can "call God merciful?".

I'm not saying that God isn't merciful, I'm saying that certain teachings about hell make it sound as though God is not.

God just so happens to love somebody so much that if they don't want to spend eternity with Him, then He won't make them.. He doesn't force His love on anyone. It just so happens the only other place to dwell in eternity is Hell, which is punishment.. Eternal separation from God..

Which, again, is not what I'm talking about. Separation from God and active torture are different degrees of punishment.

[Sharp]

I'm glad this topic came up. Maybe you can answer this question for me BLC.

We were created by God for His own purposes. No-one asked to be created. From my point of view, there is no way that I could've chosen not to be born and no way that I couldn't be a sinner, because everyone is a sinner. Even though the sins of the whole of mankind collectively put Jesus on the cross, did I really have a choice as to whether I was born a sinner? Is there anyone in the world who hasn't sinned?

God knew about the choices everyone would make before He created the world. He knew some would believe, and that others would rebel and spend eternity in hell. He didn't make these decisions for us, but he knew what each person would do. Yet he made the world anyway. How can I not sympathise with a person who never asked to be created, never asked Jesus to die for them, and spends eternity in hell, all of which God knew would happen? Yes they made the wrong choices in their life, but God knew they would.

To me its a bit like waking someone up when they're in a deep sleep, telling them they need a coffee to wake up fully, giving them a coffee, and then asking them to thank you for giving them a coffee. All the while they're thinking, well, I'd rather you never woke me up in the first place...

If God knew who would believe and repent and who wouldn't, what should we think about ourselves? Are we just lucky that we were chosen by God's grace?

[pickles]

Although I cannot know what hell God created, I have often considered the pain we suffer when one we love is refused to us. Just not being with that person is a burning pain that does not destroy but is unending. The fires of hell that do not destroy may very well be the burning pain of seeing what that one refused to accept. To see Gods love and know you will not ever have it because you refused him I believe would be the most painfull burning of spirit that ever exsisted. Second, I have often thought about when God created us, he gave us free will because he loves us so, yet he knew we would be sinners. So out of love he chose to provide a path of forgivness in his son Jesus Christ. He took full responsabuility of the price of our free will so that we would not be slaves but his children and have salvation. If we refuse him we know the price. God bless, pickles

[wattie]

Punishment and crime:

When a criminal murders someone- it could be something that takes a while or just a 10 second act.
When they are punished for their crime the punishment doesn't match the duration of crime.. but the weight.

Now, what is the greatest crime?

Surely it is rejecting salvation from God!

So if someone doesn't want God in their life and rejects Him till the day the die.. what is He to do?

The weight of the crime of rejecting salvation from God is as weighty as it gets!

Hell is the necessity for people who reject God till the day the die.

If God let people in heaven anyway.. He would be denying the person's freewill, forcing them into heaven against their decision. Taking people to a place they don't want to be at.

If God only had people in hell for a short time, so they could earn their way back to heaven.. he would have mixed standards and would not be truly just, He would also be denying His sacrifice on the cross as Jesus to pay for sin..because with his sacrifice He made it so people DIDN'T earn their way to heaven. This also makes a mockery of people who had received Christ before death and gone to heaven that way.

God extinguishing people.. giving a quick painless judgment in hell.. that just isn't in the bible, and also messes with God's justice -

The punishment matches the weight of the crime... not the duration.

Greatest crime? Rejecting salvation
What should be the consequence? Seperation from God- no salvation

Also remember-- hell is not mythological red demons and flames.. it is eternal seperation from God