Protestants ask, Catholics answer.

[girlygirl]

At this service no one got wine, not even the Catholics. lol.

Well im catholic,and I have been for almost my whole life and at every catholic church ive been to there has been wine offered ( except after hurricane katrina, because for some reason we didnt have it), but it is optional you dont have to have wine.

 

[dscherck]

One reason that wine used to be rarely offered was that there was a mistaken belief that the bread was only the Body, and the wine only the Blood. The Church wanted to emphasize that when you received the bread or wine, you still got both the Body and Blood of Our Lord. That either was sufficient. Hence, they started offering just the bread to people and reassured them that though they just got the bread, they were still receiving the Body AND Blood of Our Most Precious Lord.

 

[MahogonySnail]

Well for all the fuss Catholics make about the importance of the mass I don't know why they can't have both bread and wine IT'S NO BIG DEAL, I'd better off going to another church to get the full deal as Jesus said "DO THIS IN REMEMBERANCE OF ME", including both bread and cup.

 

[wwjd_kilden]

well, ha actually said that we should do it as often as we are gathered ...so I guess we're not doing it quite right anyways

 

[HollyC]

Well for all the fuss Catholics make about the importance of the mass I don't know why they can't have both bread and wine IT'S NO BIG DEAL, I'd better off going to another church to get the full deal as Jesus said "DO THIS IN REMEMBERANCE OF ME", including both bread and cup.

I've never actually been to a mass where they did not also have wine. Its someones personal choice to take the wine or not. There are a few issues with it. According to the "Rules" you are not supposed to take communion if you have sinned and have not confessed. And you are not allowed to take communion at all if you have committed a mortal sin like divorcing. It all depends upon the person on whether you receive the wine. Some people like to dip the Host in the wine and eat it that way. Its always a personal choice. But as I said, I've never been to a mass where there wasn't wine offered.

Has anyone, who is not a Catholic, ever been to a Catholic Mass? Ever actually experienced it?

 

[HollyC]

Merryheart I understand that you are trying to apologize and such and for that thank you. But in your post you do exactly what this thread was meant to go against. "Catholic website so obviously we do not support the traditions of holding mass, or the belief that the sacraments are the actual body and blood of Christ and other falsies. "

We believe that they are not "falsies". As a moderator please try to be a bit more neutral.

 

[leendert]

Why is it that Gods commandmends are changed in the Roman catholic catechism.The 3rd commandmend is gone and the last commandmend is split into two to make up ten again.Who but God alone can think to change His laws ?Exodus 20 2-17
Deuteronomy 5:6-21
A Traditional Catechetical Formula
I am the LORD your God,
who brought you out
of the land of Egypt,
out of the house of bondage.
I am the LORD your God,
who brought you out
of the land of Egypt,
out of the house of bondage.1. I am the LORD your God:
you shall not have
strange Gods before me.You shall have no other gods before me.
You shall not make for yourself a graven image,
or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above,
or that is in the earth beneath,
or that is in the water under the earth;
you shall not bow down to them or serve them;
for I the LORD your God am a jealous God,
visiting the iniquity of the fathers
upon the children to the third and the fourth
generation of those who hate me,
but showing steadfast love to thousands of those
who love me and keep my commandments.
You shall have no other gods before me
. . . You shall not take
the name of the LORD your God in vain;
for the LORD will not hold him guiltless
who takes his name in vain.
You shall not take
the name of the LORD your God in vain
. . .2. You shall not take
the name of the LORD your God in vain.Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
Six days you shall labor, and do all your work;
but the seventh day is a sabbath to the LORD your God;
in it you shall not do any work, you, or your son,
or your daughter, your manservant,
or your maidservant or your cattle,
or the sojourner who is within your gates;
for in six days the LORD made heaven and earth,
the sea, and all that is in them,
and rested the seventh day;
therefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day and hallowed it.
Observe the sabbath day,
to keep it holy
. . .3. Remember to keep holy the LORD'S Day.Honor your father and your mother,
that your days may be long in the land
which the LORD your God gives you.
Honor your father and your mother
. . .4. Honor your father and your mother.You shall not kill.
You shall not kill.5. You shall not kill.You shall not commit adultery.
Neither shall you commit adultery.6. You shall not commit adultery.You shall not steal.Neither shall you steal.
7. You shall not steal.You shall not bear false witness
against your neighbor.Neither shall you bear false witness
against your neighbor.
8. You shall not bear false witness
against your neighbor.You shall not covet your neighbor's house;
you shall not covet your neighbor's wife,
or his manservant, or his maidservant,
or his ox, or his ass,
or anything that is your neighbor's.
Neither shall you covet
your neighbor's wife . . . You shall not desire . . .
anything that is your neighbor's.
9. You shall not covet
your neighbor's wife. 10. You shall not covet
your neighbor's goods.

 

[leendert]

I made a bit of a mess of that post.

A Traditional Catechetical Formula

1. I am the LORD your God:
you shall not have
strange Gods before me.

2. You shall not take
the name of the LORD your God in vain.

3. Remember to keep holy the LORD'S Day.

4. Honor your father and your mother.

5. You shall not kill.

6. You shall not commit adultery.

7. You shall not steal.

8. You shall not bear false witness
against your neighbor

9. You shall not covet
your neighbor's wife

10. You shall not covet
your neighbor's goods.

What is missing is this...

You shall not make for yourself a graven image,
or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above,
or that is in the earth beneath,
or that is in the water under the earth;
you shall not bow down to them or serve them;
for I the LORD your God am a jealous God,
visiting the iniquity of the fathers
upon the children to the third and the fourth
generation of those who hate me,
but showing steadfast love to thousands of those
who love me and keep my commandments.

 

[Ryan1976]

Here are the Orthodox Catholic 10 commandments:

1. I am the Lord your God, and you shall have no other gods before Me.


2. You shall not make for yourself a graven image in order to worship it.


3. You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain.


4. Remember the Sabbath Day to keep it Holy.


5. Honor your Father and Mother.


6. You shall not kill.


7. You shall not commit adultery.


8. You shall not steal.


9. You shall not bear false witness.


10. You shall not covet.




Here's the Jewish:


1. I am the Lord your God


2. You shall have no other gods before me. You shall not make for yourself an idol.



3. You shall not make wrongful use of the name of your God.


etc.





Here's the Reformed, Anglican, protestant etc. :


Preface: I am the Lord your God


1. You shall have no other gods before me.


2. You shall not make for yourself an idol.



etc.





Here are the Roman Catholic and Lutheran:


1. I am the Lord your God. You shall not other gods before me. You shall not make for yourself an idol.



2. You shall not make wrongful use of the name of your God.



etc.



9. You shall not covet your neighbors wife.



10. You shall not covet anything that belongs to your neighbor.




The Roman Catholics didn't get rid of the 2nd commandment as many know it. It's part of the first. I haven't heard the history as to how all the sects/denominations divided them. I know that the protestants like to say that the Catholics got rid of the 2nd in order to sweep, what they consider to be idolatry, under the rug, but I have a feeling that this is only religiopolitical rhetoric.


Now I'm wondering how the Reformed/Protestant commandments decided to divvy up the commandments... What's with the Preface?

Hm.........


God bless

 

[dscherck]

With regard to the 10 commandments, if one looks carefully, one will note that there are actually 14 imperative statements. Traditionally Catholics tend to count the "I am the Lord your God, and you shall have no other gods before Me. You shall not make for yourself a graven image in order to worship it." as part of one commandment. Mainly because in pagan times their deities were idols. And they split the part where you shall not covet your neighbor's possessions and their wife as two separate commandments since a man's wife isn't merely an object owned by him.

It's merely a numbering method.

 

[dscherck]

I stand on what I said, as a Monitor for CC. This is not a catholic website and Holly I do not take orders from posters ordering me to be neutral. The fact is there is no neutral ground. Either you are a Christian or you are not. Our belief here at CC is that the Catholic doctrine as a whole is false. This is not to say that Catholics are not welcome to hear the truth of the gospel.

What part of Catholic doctrine do you disagree with?

 

[BLU]

Why do Catholics bow to statues?

To see if they will bow back, ha, ha.

 

[suaso]

I guess I am one of those Catholics who left the forums for a while because it is hard to walk around in real life all day thinking "People are seriously that unwilling to enter into civil dialogue?" Obviously, the people in question are a tiny tiny minority on the forums here, but it's usually the little things in live that drag us down, eh? Anywho, here's my two cents:

1) Communion and why non-Catholics are not to partake in Catholic Communion: Apart from the other reasons mentioned above, communion is also what is says in the name...Communion! All Catholics are supposed to be in communion with the teachings of the Church, ie believing all things that the Church teaches as truth to be true. If you believe that the Catholic Church holds and teaches all truth necessary for salvation, then chances are you are either already a Catholic or are well on your way to becoming one. If you are Catholic, you are in communion with the Catholic Church and if you are converting to Catholicism then you will be in communion with the Catholic Church soon, and once you are, you may receive communion. If you are not Catholic, then you are not in communion...so why would you say "I am in communion with the Catholic Church" by the action of receiving Eucharistic communion while not actually being in communion with the Church? The Eucharist, apart from what we have said above, is also a way in which Catholics express and continue to be in communion with other Catholics who believe what the Church teaches, so it would not make sense for non-Catholics to receive communion. This is why Catholics don't receive communion at other churches when we visit them for weddings/funerals/baptisms. We also don't partake in communion with the Orthodox, even though we believe that their Eucharist is every bit as valid as ours, because doctrinally and historically, we are indeed not in communion.

2) As for the Ten Commandments: The original scriptural text never placed the commandments in a 1-10 order nice and neat like we are used to today. They were all simply listed. How we list the commandments as statements starting from 1 and ending with 10 is simply a matter of tradition. Catholics have traditionally numbered them the way we do, the Orthodox have traditionally numbered them the way they do, and protestants/non-denominationalists have likewise traditionally numbered them they way they choose to (though it would seem most of these Christians have chosen to follow the tradition of the Eastern Orthodox Churches). No matter how you number them, the scriptures say the same thing in all of our respective Bibles, and we all can go right to it and look them up.

3) Bowing to statues: I personally have never witnessed this, but my personal experience does not mean much in the grand scheme of things. I reckon it happens. On second thought, I have no doubt that it happens. My mom thinks that before taking a test, she has to kiss a picture of me or she will fail. Obviously, how well she learned will determine if she will pass or fail the test, but she likes to remember that she is taking the test because she loves me and wanted to succeed so that she can move up in life and make me proud I guess, and since she can't kiss me directly, she kisses my picture. It is a symbol of her love for me. Her love exists without that symbol, but it helps her to see my picture anyhow.
This is how Catholics are with statues/icons. We know the statue/icon isn't what it depicts, but it is a reminder to us of the love that the saints had for Our Lord which led them to lead lives that have made us label them as Saints (saint means "holy" as we believe they are in heaven, and only holy things are in heaven). We honor their memory, lives, and the love that they had by showing some gesture, but ultimately, any good Catholic knows that such people were only able to live as they did by the Grace of God, and all honor and glory belongs to Him. The Saints serve to remind us of God's awesome ability to take something so fragile and imperfect (ordinary people) and do extraordinary things through them for the glory of his own name. God forbid anyone should actually dare to worship any of these Saints or the images by which they are depicted. Does it happen? Probably. Should it? Absolutely not. Does the Church encourage Catholics to worship them? Never.

4) Public Opinion Polls: The deacon at mass this morning preached on the Eucharist and said a recent poll reported that only 51% of Catholics in the United States believed that Jesus was present body, blood, soul and divinity in the Eucharist. It should be 100%, but it isn't. The poll proves that 49% of Catholics have either been sorely misinformed through bad Catechesis/Sunday School, or they are so arrogant as to believe they can pick and choose what the Church means to them (Cafeteria Catholics) and still consider themselves to be Catholics in communion with the Catholic Church. The thing about polls is that they tell us what people think, but thats it. Thankfully, the Catholic Church is not a democracy, and I hope no one's church is a democracy, because such a church would be like one built on sand, and public opinion would be the flood.

pax et bonum

 

[suaso]

I would like to clarify that the Eucharist is not believed to be a re-sacrifice but a perpetualization of the one sacrifice at calvary, a re-presenting if you will. It is not a new sacrifice nor a sacrifice done in place of Christ's own death on that day so long ago. It is the way that we make that sacrifice and the effects merited by Christ for all then present to all now in a special way. Sort of how the Jews made the reality of Passover present by celebrating their seder meal I reckon, though not being a Jew, I couldn't say for sure how Jews view the seder meal in its relation to the remembrance of Passover. I knew one guy who used the analogy of a battery. Energy infused in the battery in the past is made available to the present/future though the act of infusion into the battery happened once and some time ago. The battery is the sacrament, the energy the grace, ect...not the best anaology on earth, but what can be good for explaining something so sacred? Don't get me started on shamrocks and the Trinity...hahaha.

And of course we will disagree over the other things mentioned above...eh, I believe that's why we use the term anyhow, it is a protestation against our beliefs through rejection of them, so nothing else need be said that hasn't been said elsewhere on the forum.

 

[MahogonySnail]

" perpetualization of the one sacrifice at Calvary" sounds very SYMBOLIC and figurative doesn't it? We can't claim it is not a re-sacrifice while also believing it is not merely symbolic. It's either one or the other. The Passover was merely a remembrance, and there is nothing in Judaism to compare to the Catholic view of transubstantiation , the Real Presence and the fact that the mass is treated as a re-sacrifice.

 

[imoss]

Actually, only Catholics should receive Holy Communion in a Catholic Church to begin with. Further, it is not necessary to receive both the bread and the wine, and for many centuries, only the bread was given. This is because we believe that the Lord is truly present, Body and Blood, Soul and Divinity, under both the bread and the wine, so only receiving one results in a full communion.

Why?? is this biblical? I think not. Its a shame that Christians attending a Catholic funeral are unable to partake in the LORDS supper. its not the CAtholic supper, its the Lords supper. The requirement should be stated if you have received and accept Jesus Christ as your Lord and savior. I also felt quite sad that the priest so caught up in his "religion" didnt know the LORD! When you speak to a Holy Spirit filled person you know and he, unfortunately was going through the motions. Now I pray for HIM to truly experience the Lord and not just the religion... I've been to many many many Church's in my search for a church family and NEVER have I felt as shunned and unaccepted and unwelcome as I have the 3 times I've attended Catholic services. All different churches by the way. Its hard to feel the Love of God and the Holy spirit when you are feeling offended. The buildings are beautiful though. Dont get me wrong, I love the Catholics who's funeral I attended and in no way question their love of the Lord it was that the entire service disturbed me and did come off as idol worship to someone who is unfamiliar with this church's rituals. I too question why was he bowing to the statue? And why did he get mad when i did my Bible reading from the Bible?

 

[imoss]

Read the word of God... pray before you read... set aside all "religious" preconceptions and defense of the traditions of church... What does Gods word say to you? We are all to question what we are taught. If we go into the word with an open heart and mind set on the will of God and only the will of God we will come to the realization that all organized religion, groups, have it wrong to some degree. This is humanity at its best... failing. Thank God for our Lord and Saviour Christ Jesus and our access to the word of God to either validate or rebuke us in our human assessment of God and what He wants from us. We need to be open to the truth in Gods word, ask my husband, he was an alter boy & loved the Lord as a RC but after studying Gods word decided that there was too much conflict between scipture and practice. This is not to hate on Catholics, just question what you are taught. I've never seen merryheart post such a long post. I would recommend you read every word, without being defensive or just thinking that she's anti-catholic because my assessment of Merryheart is that she is a Holy Spirit filled woman who loves the Lord and people, she is definitely not a "hater". Bless all who read this with a conviction to question their own beliefs that they be found pleasing to the LORD! Imagine pleasing the Lord!! smiles.

 

[HollyC]

Why?? is this biblical? I think not. Its a shame that Christians attending a Catholic funeral are unable to partake in the LORDS supper. its not the CAtholic supper, its the Lords supper. The requirement should be stated if you have received and accept Jesus Christ as your Lord and savior. I also felt quite sad that the priest so caught up in his "religion" didnt know the LORD! When you speak to a Holy Spirit filled person you know and he, unfortunately was going through the motions. Now I pray for HIM to truly experience the Lord and not just the religion... I've been to many many many Church's in my search for a church family and NEVER have I felt as shunned and unaccepted and unwelcome as I have the 3 times I've attended Catholic services. All different churches by the way. Its hard to feel the Love of God and the Holy spirit when you are feeling offended. The buildings are beautiful though. Dont get me wrong, I love the Catholics who's funeral I attended and in no way question their love of the Lord it was that the entire service disturbed me and did come off as idol worship to someone who is unfamiliar with this church's rituals. I too question why was he bowing to the statue? And why did he get mad when i did my Bible reading from the Bible?

The main reason why they don't give out the Host to the guests who are not Catholic is because Catholics believe that the Wine and Wafer actually become the Blood and Body of Christ. Transubstantiation. It would be odd to give the body and blood of Christ to someone who doesn't believe that it is. Catholics don't see it just as a symbol, it is seen as the real thing.

I'm sorry you felt shunned at Catholic services because that was not the intent I would assume. And yes, the Priest does have to say certain things. That is the way he was taught and that is the way the people expect. Through the "ritual" the wine and wafer become Christ. The Church is slowing evolving. Things are slowly changing. There are women allowed at the front of the Church now, already married men who convert from another religion are being allowed to become Priests within the Catholic Church. It doesn't happen often but it has happened.

Out of curiousity what made you feel offended and shunned? Was it because you couldn't go up to receive communion? I never actually understood the issue before until I looked back on something that happened duuring university.

I offered a friend of mine a chance to go to Church with me because she had said she had never been to Church before. At this time I was a practicing Catholic. She had been baptized as an infant by her parents but had never gone as an adult or even a child after her baptism. I told her of course she could come. She enjoyed the service, was big on the sign of peace and the singing. However, when it came to receiving communion she stood up to go with me. I told her that she couldn't and she said Why not? I've been baptized. I just told her she couldn't and that I would explain it later. I didn't see it at the time but she was hurt. I asked her after and she said that it wasn't very welcoming to not allow someone to receive communion because they weren't of that faith and she asked me why? And to be honest I gave her the same transubstantiation blurb. But after I told her that I didn't really know why.

That was my turning point away from Catholicism...at least thats what I think.

 

[kujo313]

As far as penances go, they're not what forgives you. Think of it as a sort of spiritual after care. You were sick with sin, you went to the Great Physician (Jesus) and afterward one of the nurses gave you some pamphlets on avoiding getting sick again (the penance).

Whatever happen to "Go and sin no more" as Jesus said, or if some one offends you, leave your gift at the altar, go make amends and then return and offer your gift?

 

[dscherck]

Here is what the Priest is to say is it not?

Priest: Blessed are you, Lord, God of all creation. Through your goodness we have this bread to offer, which earth has given and human hands have made. It will become for us the bread of life.
All: Blessed be God for ever.
Priest: Blessed are you, Lord, God of all creation. Through your goodness we have this wine to offer, fruit of the vine and work of human hands. It will become our spiritual drink.
All: Blessed be God for ever.
Priest: Pray, my brothers and sisters, that our sacrifice may be acceptable to God, the almighty Father.
All: May the Lord accept the sacrifice at your hands,
for the praise and glory of his name,
for our good, and the good of all his Church.
I noted that the priest is now calling, both bread and wine a sacrifice =/ and he is labelling it as "our" sacrifice to God.

and after all said and done it is religiously placed in a "tabernacle" box.

It is a sacrifice. Through the liturgy, we participate in the one sacrifice of Christ on Calvary. The Eucharist is the one sacrifice of Jesus that is perpetually being offered by Our Lord on our behalf throughout the ages. In the Mass He allows us to participate in the sacrifice of the Cross. It's one sacrifice that exists both in time and outside time. Just as Jesus is both God an Man.

We don't "re-sacrifice" Christ, we participate in the one sacrifice through the Mass.