A
I am pleased to inform you that not all devote Catholics have left this website in light of the offensive things that have been written here. This is a thread for Protestants and other non-Roman Christians to ASK our Catholic brothers and sisters in Christ questions about what we may not understand about their church, doctrine and traditions. This is NOT a place to accuse them of heresy!!!!!!!!
I was lamenting on Christian Chick's thread about how I feared that all the good Catholics have left due to offensive content and how now we can't ask them questions. I recieved a wonderful e-mail from Leone XIII saying that he'll answer any questions I may have. I wanted to share his answers with the rest of you and save him from writing it all out again.
I'll say it again. This is about understanding each other and not about accusing anyone of heresy.
Oh, and I should say that we got to remember that not all Catholics necessarily believe the same things, just as not all Protestants believe the same thing. In fact there are many things that Protestants believe that I have a hard time understanding how they are justified Biblically.
What I wrote:
"I was on a Catholic on-line store and it (I can't find the webpage now) said that the Virgin Mary appeared to someone and said that if someone was wearing a scapular when they died they'd be saved, regardless of their spiritual status. Do a lot of Catholics believe that? My second question is why do Catholics seem to me to emphasize Mary and the Saints over Jesus? Why do people have shrines to Mary but not to Jesus? Why do Catholics believe that Mary was sinless and taken up to Heaven in the Assumption?
On the podcast I listen to about learning from Catholics, Campolo (a Baptist pastor) said that Protestant look at the Gospels through Paul rather than Catholics who look at the Episles through Jesus. Paul and the Episles are great, but maybe Protestants aren't paying enough attention to the Gospels, which is more important than anything. I'm critical of other Protestants when they overlook the what Jesus said about caring for the poor. I mean, it's not that I'm critical of them for not doing more for the poor. I'm critical of them for ignoring that passage of scripture."
What he wrote:
The Brown Scapular is a private devotion practiced by many of the faithful--it is a symbol of devotion to Mary, which I will go on to explain. When we are devoted to a cause, do we not wear symbols of it? Surely you wore your school colors at some point, if you go to a sporting event, we wear our team's colors. The Scapular is sort of the "team colors" for Jesus and Mary. What you're referring to about "being saved regardless of spiritual state" is simply not the case of what we believe about the Scapular. First off, the Scapular is a private devotion, meaning that no one is obligated to wear it. The promise attached to it comes from the vision had by St. Simon Stock, an English Carmelite monk. Mary gave him the Scapular--which for monks and nuns is a long, flowing work apron of sorts--as a sign of their commitment to God. The smaller Scapular that you seem to be more acquainted with is a devotional version of that--adopted by the faithful who wanted to share in the spiritual life of the Carmelites. The inscription which appears on most Scapulars, "Whosoever dies wearing this Scapular shall not suffer eternal fire," simply means that whomever is faithful to sharing in the life of prayer of that community will go to heaven--this life entails regular prayer, chastity according to one's state in life, and faithful wearing of the Scapular. Do these things not already bring us into union with God? Prayer, chastity, and wearing the Scapular--a manifestation of not denying Christ before men--bring us closer to God and prepare us for heaven. So the Scapular, then, is not some kind of magical amulet that gets you into heaven, it's not a "get-out-of-Hell-free" card as some would like to think, it is a reminder to pray and live chastely.
As for devotion to the saints, the way you have phrased your question is somewhat troublesome: I know of no Catholic who has devotion to Mary and the Saints over and above their devotion to Christ, and in fact, this is impossible. We honor Mary and the Saints because they were conformed to Christ fully both in life and in death--for a Saint is simply one who is in heaven. By recognizing them, we are inspired to greater faith and hope that we, too, can attain heaven. Furthermore, our faith in Christ is increased by their example--they knew and loved Christ, and so we must be like them. That is why there are so many saints from so many walks of life--God gives us the saints as exemplars, and each one of us can find one to relate to.
The Saints are furthermore Christians just as much as we are. When one dies and attains to the glory of God in heaven, he is more alive than he is on earth. He is also fully united to the will of God. The will of God is that we pray for one another, so why would we not continue to pray for one another in accord with God's will once we have reached heaven? Devotion to the Saints, then, is not only about honoring what they achieved by God's grace (and in turn, glorifying God for pouring out that grace), but is also about invoking their intercession, asking them to pray for us. If it acceptible for you to pray for me, and I for you, and any Christian to pray for any other, why is it not acceptible for me to ask my brethren in Christ who are already with Christ to pray for me? They have attained to the fullness of charity and grace in heaven, and so surely they would not deny the request of their poor brother on earth!
As for why Catholics "have shrines to Mary but not to Jesus," this is not entirely true. Again, by honoring Mary and the Saints, we honor Christ, who made them Saints. You cite vague anecdotal evidence here, and there may well be some Catholics whose decorating scheme incorporates a shrine of Mary and no pictures of Jesus--but that doesn't mean that Jesus is not on their hearts. Indeed, anyone who seeks to imitate the life of Mary--her humility, her acceptance of the will of God in spite of her lowly state--will surely find Jesus as she did. The Church teaches that we must not give any man honor that is due to God, but that does not mean that we cannot honor holy men and thank God that they have been made holy.
As for your observation about Protestants reading the Gospels through Paul, I have noticed this as well--It is an increasing trend to see many Protestants in debate only reference Paul, and then to only bring him up out of context. Out of his historical context, and divorced from unity with the rest of Scripture, throwing out verses of Paul is meaningless. All of Scripture must be taken together and understood in context. One analogy I have used for this phenomenon is that some Protestants see Scripture as a pile of glass shards, and they pick up those shards and throw them to try to cut with them. Catholics take those little bits of glass and work them together into a beautiful stained-glass window, with the light of the Holy Spirit shining through. Once you begin to read Scripture in this way--not each verse off by itself or each book in a vacuum, but together as a unified font of wisdom from the One True God--then you will begin to understand it fully and completely, and come to be nourished by Christ through it.
I was lamenting on Christian Chick's thread about how I feared that all the good Catholics have left due to offensive content and how now we can't ask them questions. I recieved a wonderful e-mail from Leone XIII saying that he'll answer any questions I may have. I wanted to share his answers with the rest of you and save him from writing it all out again.
I'll say it again. This is about understanding each other and not about accusing anyone of heresy.
Oh, and I should say that we got to remember that not all Catholics necessarily believe the same things, just as not all Protestants believe the same thing. In fact there are many things that Protestants believe that I have a hard time understanding how they are justified Biblically.
What I wrote:
"I was on a Catholic on-line store and it (I can't find the webpage now) said that the Virgin Mary appeared to someone and said that if someone was wearing a scapular when they died they'd be saved, regardless of their spiritual status. Do a lot of Catholics believe that? My second question is why do Catholics seem to me to emphasize Mary and the Saints over Jesus? Why do people have shrines to Mary but not to Jesus? Why do Catholics believe that Mary was sinless and taken up to Heaven in the Assumption?
On the podcast I listen to about learning from Catholics, Campolo (a Baptist pastor) said that Protestant look at the Gospels through Paul rather than Catholics who look at the Episles through Jesus. Paul and the Episles are great, but maybe Protestants aren't paying enough attention to the Gospels, which is more important than anything. I'm critical of other Protestants when they overlook the what Jesus said about caring for the poor. I mean, it's not that I'm critical of them for not doing more for the poor. I'm critical of them for ignoring that passage of scripture."
What he wrote:
The Brown Scapular is a private devotion practiced by many of the faithful--it is a symbol of devotion to Mary, which I will go on to explain. When we are devoted to a cause, do we not wear symbols of it? Surely you wore your school colors at some point, if you go to a sporting event, we wear our team's colors. The Scapular is sort of the "team colors" for Jesus and Mary. What you're referring to about "being saved regardless of spiritual state" is simply not the case of what we believe about the Scapular. First off, the Scapular is a private devotion, meaning that no one is obligated to wear it. The promise attached to it comes from the vision had by St. Simon Stock, an English Carmelite monk. Mary gave him the Scapular--which for monks and nuns is a long, flowing work apron of sorts--as a sign of their commitment to God. The smaller Scapular that you seem to be more acquainted with is a devotional version of that--adopted by the faithful who wanted to share in the spiritual life of the Carmelites. The inscription which appears on most Scapulars, "Whosoever dies wearing this Scapular shall not suffer eternal fire," simply means that whomever is faithful to sharing in the life of prayer of that community will go to heaven--this life entails regular prayer, chastity according to one's state in life, and faithful wearing of the Scapular. Do these things not already bring us into union with God? Prayer, chastity, and wearing the Scapular--a manifestation of not denying Christ before men--bring us closer to God and prepare us for heaven. So the Scapular, then, is not some kind of magical amulet that gets you into heaven, it's not a "get-out-of-Hell-free" card as some would like to think, it is a reminder to pray and live chastely.
As for devotion to the saints, the way you have phrased your question is somewhat troublesome: I know of no Catholic who has devotion to Mary and the Saints over and above their devotion to Christ, and in fact, this is impossible. We honor Mary and the Saints because they were conformed to Christ fully both in life and in death--for a Saint is simply one who is in heaven. By recognizing them, we are inspired to greater faith and hope that we, too, can attain heaven. Furthermore, our faith in Christ is increased by their example--they knew and loved Christ, and so we must be like them. That is why there are so many saints from so many walks of life--God gives us the saints as exemplars, and each one of us can find one to relate to.
The Saints are furthermore Christians just as much as we are. When one dies and attains to the glory of God in heaven, he is more alive than he is on earth. He is also fully united to the will of God. The will of God is that we pray for one another, so why would we not continue to pray for one another in accord with God's will once we have reached heaven? Devotion to the Saints, then, is not only about honoring what they achieved by God's grace (and in turn, glorifying God for pouring out that grace), but is also about invoking their intercession, asking them to pray for us. If it acceptible for you to pray for me, and I for you, and any Christian to pray for any other, why is it not acceptible for me to ask my brethren in Christ who are already with Christ to pray for me? They have attained to the fullness of charity and grace in heaven, and so surely they would not deny the request of their poor brother on earth!
As for why Catholics "have shrines to Mary but not to Jesus," this is not entirely true. Again, by honoring Mary and the Saints, we honor Christ, who made them Saints. You cite vague anecdotal evidence here, and there may well be some Catholics whose decorating scheme incorporates a shrine of Mary and no pictures of Jesus--but that doesn't mean that Jesus is not on their hearts. Indeed, anyone who seeks to imitate the life of Mary--her humility, her acceptance of the will of God in spite of her lowly state--will surely find Jesus as she did. The Church teaches that we must not give any man honor that is due to God, but that does not mean that we cannot honor holy men and thank God that they have been made holy.
As for your observation about Protestants reading the Gospels through Paul, I have noticed this as well--It is an increasing trend to see many Protestants in debate only reference Paul, and then to only bring him up out of context. Out of his historical context, and divorced from unity with the rest of Scripture, throwing out verses of Paul is meaningless. All of Scripture must be taken together and understood in context. One analogy I have used for this phenomenon is that some Protestants see Scripture as a pile of glass shards, and they pick up those shards and throw them to try to cut with them. Catholics take those little bits of glass and work them together into a beautiful stained-glass window, with the light of the Holy Spirit shining through. Once you begin to read Scripture in this way--not each verse off by itself or each book in a vacuum, but together as a unified font of wisdom from the One True God--then you will begin to understand it fully and completely, and come to be nourished by Christ through it.
