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N
I don't know a whole lot. Going to ramble. Heaven is or Paradise is where ever God is. It's like a Garden I think that word can mean. The Parable of Rich man and Lazarus can show us a lot too. We see in Rev who is in heaven , chapter 12 of Revelation. Job we see a event that transpires in heaven, where the sons of God show up before God and converse along with Satan. John was taken in part to Heaven in the vision given Him by Christ. And so on.
K
Here is my problem: Luke 23:43 "This day you will be with me in Paradise" proves Jesus was in Paradise before nightfall on the day He was crucified. John 20:17 "I have not yet ascended to my Father", as of three days later. Matt. 6:9 "Or Father who art in heaven". These together prove Jesus had not been to heaven, but He had been to paradise.
C
Perhaps He went to Abraham's Bosom, the place of the righteous dead from the Law. The reason it was called Paradise was because they who went to that section of Hades did not suffer as the rest who was on the other side of the gulf in Hades. Remember they all received death because the Law could not justified any of them. So, they all received the just sentencing of the Law.
I believe paradise is the physical restored earth and the rest of the universe made accessible.
I believe scripture indicates this, scattered in many places, and I believe it will be "garden" style.
Though it is interesting to picture it as a place of righteous technology also or a mix.
I believe "heaven" proper is a place/state of existence that must be indescribable, except by way of imagery. And I believe every physical manifestation of something, directly reflects it's heavenly, or spiritual counterpart, that never waivers in it's definition. And I believe this concept of "representation" is what the "word" of YHWH is. All you have to do is find the spiritual conterpart in your mind, of something physical in the world like "fire" or "water" or "tree" or "goat". I believe "angels" or "messengers" are the occasional occurrences of these physical things around us, to send us information from heaven. Whether they be glowing men, animals doing weird things at the perfect moment, etc. I believe they are legitimate only when they take you by surprise at the perfect moment of your thoughts, otherwise we are "seeking" them like an adulterous generation.
In other words, I argue that paradise and heaven are two completely different things, and that only the elect are given the reward of being able to actually enter "heaven", though everyone will eventually desire and enter the kingdom of Elohim, and paradise, either the easy or the hard way.
I believe scripture indicates this, scattered in many places, and I believe it will be "garden" style.
Though it is interesting to picture it as a place of righteous technology also or a mix.
I believe "heaven" proper is a place/state of existence that must be indescribable, except by way of imagery. And I believe every physical manifestation of something, directly reflects it's heavenly, or spiritual counterpart, that never waivers in it's definition. And I believe this concept of "representation" is what the "word" of YHWH is. All you have to do is find the spiritual conterpart in your mind, of something physical in the world like "fire" or "water" or "tree" or "goat". I believe "angels" or "messengers" are the occasional occurrences of these physical things around us, to send us information from heaven. Whether they be glowing men, animals doing weird things at the perfect moment, etc. I believe they are legitimate only when they take you by surprise at the perfect moment of your thoughts, otherwise we are "seeking" them like an adulterous generation.
In other words, I argue that paradise and heaven are two completely different things, and that only the elect are given the reward of being able to actually enter "heaven", though everyone will eventually desire and enter the kingdom of Elohim, and paradise, either the easy or the hard way.
As a teenager, I remember elders giving me an imaginary picture of paradise as a place filled with flowers, sunshine,spring water, etc, etc where there would be no tears, sadness, death but only happiness and where God will reign for eternity. After growing up, I have never really tried to validate this concept further from biblical point of view as I still romanticized this concept.
One should also consider that the interpretation is a grammatical one. For example.
Luk 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.
This says that Jesus and the thief will be in paradise that very day. however what if the comma which does no appear in the original text, moved?
Luk 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee To day, shalt thou be with me in paradise.
Suddenly it is different. Now Jesus is simply saying that this day/fri, I am telling you that you will be in paradise. in other words he made the promise on that day.
This is not inconsistent with the way they spoke then.
but how can we know which one is accurate?
check out this verse:
Rev 2:7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.
notice that the Tree of life is in the Paradise of God. So find out where the tree of life is and you have your paradise.
Now we know that the tree of life was originally in the Garden of Eden. but where is it now?
In Revelation we are given a description of the new heavens and the new earth which is to come.
Rev 22:2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.
again the tree of life is the reward of those who obey God.
Rev 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
So it stands to reason that the thief on the cross who repented and followed Jesus gained the promise that He will be in heaven.
Another point.
Paul spoke of the "third Heaven" which is known to be heaven the dwelling of God and the angels. Three heavens, our atmosphere, space and Gods dwelling place.
Notice what Paul says when he was taken in vision to heaven.
2Co 12:2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth
such an one caught up to the third heaven.
2Co 12:3 And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth
2Co 12:4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard
He called the third heaven, paradise. They are one and the same.
Now being that Heaven is a future reward that no one gets till the end.
Heb 11:39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:
Heb 11:40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.
it becomes clear that we are in fact dealing with a grammatical error, neither Jesus nor the thief went anywhere that day except into the earth.
Luk 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.
This says that Jesus and the thief will be in paradise that very day. however what if the comma which does no appear in the original text, moved?
Luk 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee To day, shalt thou be with me in paradise.
Suddenly it is different. Now Jesus is simply saying that this day/fri, I am telling you that you will be in paradise. in other words he made the promise on that day.
This is not inconsistent with the way they spoke then.
but how can we know which one is accurate?
check out this verse:
Rev 2:7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.
notice that the Tree of life is in the Paradise of God. So find out where the tree of life is and you have your paradise.
Now we know that the tree of life was originally in the Garden of Eden. but where is it now?
In Revelation we are given a description of the new heavens and the new earth which is to come.
Rev 22:2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.
again the tree of life is the reward of those who obey God.
Rev 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
So it stands to reason that the thief on the cross who repented and followed Jesus gained the promise that He will be in heaven.
Another point.
Paul spoke of the "third Heaven" which is known to be heaven the dwelling of God and the angels. Three heavens, our atmosphere, space and Gods dwelling place.
Notice what Paul says when he was taken in vision to heaven.
2Co 12:2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth
such an one caught up to the third heaven. 2Co 12:3 And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth
2Co 12:4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard
He called the third heaven, paradise. They are one and the same.
Now being that Heaven is a future reward that no one gets till the end.
Heb 11:39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:
Heb 11:40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.
it becomes clear that we are in fact dealing with a grammatical error, neither Jesus nor the thief went anywhere that day except into the earth.
A
do you know islam paradais ? it is a porn story
do you mean like in quraan
hey shall recline on jewelled couches face to face, and there shall wait on them immortal youths with bowls and ewers and a cup of purest wine (that will neither pain their heads nor take away their reason); with fruits of their own choice and flesh of fowls that they relish. And theirs shall be the dark-eyed houris, chaste as hidden pearls: a guerdon for their deeds... We created the houris and made them virgins, loving companions for those on the right hand..."
dark-eyed virgins sheltered in their tents (which of your Lord s blessings would you deny?) whom neither man nor jinnee will have touched before"
And round about them young boys servants them as if they were pearls
And round about them young boys servants them if you see them
Think them pearls scattered
mohammad say
young boys Wearing bracelets in their hands and earrings in their ears
ahmad mosnad
someexplainer for quraan say there is no need for servent to be "boys" and beatiful white Wearing bracelets and earrings except if they for servent and sex because God make every thing forbeden in muslim life Available in heaven
in islam young girl is ok yu allow to have sex with them but young boys
mohammad say "The lowest of the people in Paradise status, which has eighty thousand server and seventy-two girl"
somepeople think they are 72 but really 72 for the losers in heaven think how many for the winer
in quraan " they will have wives sanitized
it means those women Do not go to the bathroom
Without menstruation
Do not give birth
quraan ""The owners of the Garden today busy
Fruits"
means busy in breaking virginity
ibn abas quraan explainer in mohammad time the biggest shikah as mohammad ask allah for him said "The man of the people of Paradise hugs Hawraa seventy years, does not get tired of her do not get bored of her.Whenever visited
her found her virgin, and whenever he returned to her his desireback to him, **** her strongly seventy men, there is no semen between them"
go to alqurtobi explanation for quraan part Yassin
in ibn katheer book for quraan explaination abdu allah ask mohammad do we put foot in heaven (having sex but in arab culture when you say you put foot over woman it mean you fxxx her)
mohammad said"with the name who have my soul in his hand you push then push then when you get over her she return virgin"
of course you drink Alcohol and there rivers of milk and honey you eat fruit
but very much women will not have except their husband in life that mean she join to her husband groups of women and she return virgin
i dont know is not enough in this life that they allowed 4 women as wives and noncountable Concubines slaves to rape
he him self married 13 wives one of them 6 years old aisha not 9 as may some think
one of them his adopted son wife one of them jews rape victim safiah
the he have who quraan called them "themselves giver for mohammad " 15 wmoen it means sex not married
and 23 booked women
and 2 gifts salves from other kings
allah like to give sex to his men
mohammad is Virgin pimp
do you mean like in quraan
hey shall recline on jewelled couches face to face, and there shall wait on them immortal youths with bowls and ewers and a cup of purest wine (that will neither pain their heads nor take away their reason); with fruits of their own choice and flesh of fowls that they relish. And theirs shall be the dark-eyed houris, chaste as hidden pearls: a guerdon for their deeds... We created the houris and made them virgins, loving companions for those on the right hand..."
dark-eyed virgins sheltered in their tents (which of your Lord s blessings would you deny?) whom neither man nor jinnee will have touched before"
And round about them young boys servants them as if they were pearls
And round about them young boys servants them if you see them
Think them pearls scattered
mohammad say
young boys Wearing bracelets in their hands and earrings in their ears
ahmad mosnad
someexplainer for quraan say there is no need for servent to be "boys" and beatiful white Wearing bracelets and earrings except if they for servent and sex because God make every thing forbeden in muslim life Available in heaven
in islam young girl is ok yu allow to have sex with them but young boys
mohammad say "The lowest of the people in Paradise status, which has eighty thousand server and seventy-two girl"
somepeople think they are 72 but really 72 for the losers in heaven think how many for the winer
in quraan " they will have wives sanitized
it means those women Do not go to the bathroom
Without menstruation
Do not give birth
quraan ""The owners of the Garden today busy
Fruits"
means busy in breaking virginity
ibn abas quraan explainer in mohammad time the biggest shikah as mohammad ask allah for him said "The man of the people of Paradise hugs Hawraa seventy years, does not get tired of her do not get bored of her.Whenever visited
her found her virgin, and whenever he returned to her his desireback to him, **** her strongly seventy men, there is no semen between them"
go to alqurtobi explanation for quraan part Yassin
in ibn katheer book for quraan explaination abdu allah ask mohammad do we put foot in heaven (having sex but in arab culture when you say you put foot over woman it mean you fxxx her)
mohammad said"with the name who have my soul in his hand you push then push then when you get over her she return virgin"
of course you drink Alcohol and there rivers of milk and honey you eat fruit
but very much women will not have except their husband in life that mean she join to her husband groups of women and she return virgin
i dont know is not enough in this life that they allowed 4 women as wives and noncountable Concubines slaves to rape
he him self married 13 wives one of them 6 years old aisha not 9 as may some think
one of them his adopted son wife one of them jews rape victim safiah
the he have who quraan called them "themselves giver for mohammad " 15 wmoen it means sex not married
and 23 booked women
and 2 gifts salves from other kings
allah like to give sex to his men
mohammad is Virgin pimp
K
Let's see if I can summarize so far: 1. Cfultz thinks it's part of Hades, based on it being where Abraham was. 2. Bekah thinks Jesus was referring to a state, not a place. 3. Wolf says it's the restored earth and the rest of the universe made accessible. 4. Sanglina tells us a story of a nice place. 5. Resurrection, I think, you are saying it is peace of mind that comes from resisting temptation. 6. And gotime has given us many Scriptures that it is in the third heaven, and will be available as our future reward. 7. I will add that the Talmud agrees with Sanglina, that it is a nice place with flowers, etc., bu everything is done in shiny crystal, and with the idea that it is one of the heavens.
I think we could all be right. Let's ask this: how many heavens are there? The Jews tell us there are seven (Scripture does not tell us, except that there are at least 3). The Jews also tell us that the demons live in one of them. If that were true (and I'm not saying it is), Abraham could easily have been in that heaven (1), anyone who is there certainly is in a happy state (2,5), this heaven could be storing the new earth to come (3,6), which is why it is so nice (4,7), and the elders she quotes did not get the whole story, or maybe the Talmud scholars made the other part up about the crystal.
We all agree it's not where God is, but that's okay, since there are at least 3 heavens. One holds paradise (and thus the earth to come), one holds the throneroom of God and the angels, and one is of course, the "sky". Can anyone think of any Scriptures that contradict this last statement? Does anyone not agree? Can anyone find anything more to support the hypothesis?
I think we could all be right. Let's ask this: how many heavens are there? The Jews tell us there are seven (Scripture does not tell us, except that there are at least 3). The Jews also tell us that the demons live in one of them. If that were true (and I'm not saying it is), Abraham could easily have been in that heaven (1), anyone who is there certainly is in a happy state (2,5), this heaven could be storing the new earth to come (3,6), which is why it is so nice (4,7), and the elders she quotes did not get the whole story, or maybe the Talmud scholars made the other part up about the crystal.
We all agree it's not where God is, but that's okay, since there are at least 3 heavens. One holds paradise (and thus the earth to come), one holds the throneroom of God and the angels, and one is of course, the "sky". Can anyone think of any Scriptures that contradict this last statement? Does anyone not agree? Can anyone find anything more to support the hypothesis?
K
Did you ever read Plato's story of the man chained in a cave who could only see the shadows on the wall, and had to guess what was going on to cause them? I agree with the idea that earth gets a representation of what is in God's plan in heaven, like a shadow, and we can backtrack it via the representation in our mind.
I think that is one kind of angel, and I think there are other kinds.
I'd like to get some examples of what you mean by "spiritual technology".
I think that is one kind of angel, and I think there are other kinds.
I'd like to get some examples of what you mean by "spiritual technology".
K
Sorry, the Greek won't support it. "Today" is simply too separated from the verb "said" and too close to the verb "will be". Gill's commentary states that every manuscript from the early church, in every language that allows for something like a comma, interprets it in the usual fashion. We might get it wrong due to problems with reading Greek, but it's unlikely the early church did.
It doesn't matter, you've given us a fine proof about a lot of things. We don't need that particular passage to prove Paradise is not in heaven where God is any more.
It doesn't matter, you've given us a fine proof about a lot of things. We don't need that particular passage to prove Paradise is not in heaven where God is any more.
C
Ken (just my opnion, not in contradiction),
Just to clarifiy my position. What I am saying : It was a place of fellowship for Adam and Eve. It was a part of Hades for those righteous of the Law, seeing Jesus told the thief that He will meet him in Paradise and that we know He went to Hades to deliver the righteous of the Law.
On the other hand, we will return to the conditions of how the Garden of Eden was before we were thrown out of that Paradise: in a real fellowship with God, in His rest. Paradise then, when that time comes, would be the New Jerusalem.
Cfultz3 is right.
My sister went there one time went she almost died.
Everything she described was paradise, complete with animals she knew(friends pets, not her's - else she wouldn't have wanted to return), some interesting forms of angels-(getting her to breath), and no people.
See-No souls of humans.
They had already been expedited to heaven when Jesus became the first fruits of righteousness.
Before that, I believe it had many faithful souls in waiting.
She doesn't know about paradise, she thinks it was a form of heaven.
But from her description, it matched what the Bible says about Abraham's bosom perfectly.
My sister went there one time went she almost died.
Everything she described was paradise, complete with animals she knew(friends pets, not her's - else she wouldn't have wanted to return), some interesting forms of angels-(getting her to breath), and no people.
See-No souls of humans.
They had already been expedited to heaven when Jesus became the first fruits of righteousness.
Before that, I believe it had many faithful souls in waiting.
She doesn't know about paradise, she thinks it was a form of heaven.
But from her description, it matched what the Bible says about Abraham's bosom perfectly.