Secular marriages: priests refusing to marry secular people???

[thefightinglamb]

I know most/all Christians are against a Christian marrying a non-believer or an athiest...and this thread is not about that subject.

My brother was not an active believer for a long time and he fell in love with his now wife, who is an athiest....

Anyway, when they were going to get married I believe God put into my brother's and his now wife's heart that they wanted to get married by a priest...the reason I think it was God and not just custom is because my family does not go to church, it would have been a lot simpler for him to just get a government offical to marry them...

But instead they searched for a priest that would marry them...but they were not accepted by any preacher/priest/pastor they called...so instead, they got their offical 'government' wedding pronounced by a government official...

So, now, for the direct question that is plaguing me...is it the right stance for the church to refuse to marry people who want the true Lord to be in the first seeds of the wedding...or should secualar/other faiths just be 'condemned' to have a secualar marriage instead of one in God's true church???

Don't you think that perhaps God put it into both my brother's and his now wife's heart to not only be willing but desire to be married by God and by a pastor rather than in a secular manner...?

I really do not think the church should reject even marrying secular people that quickly...why do you think secular people would want to get married in a church? Perhaps customs/rituals...but ALSO more than likely God is active in drawing both of them to himself...

This being said, I probably have a stronger 'acceptable marriage requirements' than many on this site...I really do not think a Christian should EVER marry an atheist or someone of another faith...as it tends to lead them astray even as Soloman was led astray...and also, where I am more strict than most, in each situation I think the pastor/preacher should listen to God and pray about whether or not to marry the two people...and if they marry people that the Lord has warned them not to, then they are licensing evil...

So the question is not should Christians marry atheists/non-believers? but should priests refuse to marry people who are seeking God's blessing on their marriage and thus force them to begin their marriage foundation on sand and not on the true Rock? Because if two people who are not Christians are seeking to get married through the church, do you not think that might be God calling them to do so through a whisper?

We do not know how God works in other people's lives, but I do believe that it is very wrong to deny people that are showing OBVIOUS signs of seeking the Lord (aka they have no reason other than God putting it into their hearts to get married in his church) marriage, or any other blessing they seek from God...

The question is also not if God can or will bless a Christian marrying an atheist/non-believer's marriage...but should priests marry two secualr people that have no real tangible reason for wanting God to marry them, besides the simple fact of wanting the true God in their marriage...

My brother's marriage is just becoming more and more secualr, instead of being based on the foundation they sought...and I think this might happen to many secular people...who sought God in their marriage but then were refused by churches...Please pray for my brother...

And may Christ and his love, be what guides our lives and not 'dogma'

tony

ps...Churches are tending toward dogma when they force people to go through certain steps/be a certain thing before marrying them...I believe that yes, the pastor/preacher should pray and when/if he gets the go ahead he should marry them...and not because they fit a certain stereotype or have completed some 11 step program (I use this as an analogy)...

[jgrig2]

No problem a preacher marying 2 unbelievers OUTSIDE A CHURCH and it is made clear that the he does this an an officier OF THE STATE and not of the church. Church weddings are for Regenerate believers of the Church not just to pleasy grandma or ma. Pastors ought to take a stand on this one. I am of course speaking of protestants and not of catholic priests who clearly just care about the money and not the theology or else they would not have invented the annulement system as pertaining to divorce.

[1still_waters]

If people don't believe in the Christian faith, then why would they want to get married in a church? It makes about as much sense as me wanting to get married in a mosque.

Maybe non Christians want to get married in a church because it's a pretty building and because of 'traditions'?

If a pastor refuses to marry non Christians in a church, it's not because they fail to meet requirements on some detailed 1000+ question check list. It's not even about them failing to fit some pre-designed multi dimensional mold.

It's just about them not being Christians. Period!

[thefightinglamb]

Perhaps, it does not make sense that non-believers want to get married by a preacher--not even necesarily in a church....but it does happen....

And I mean the logical question that comes up as I think I remember Mohagony Snail bringing up in the past is 'does God bless secular marriages or is it only Christian marriages?'...but not even just that, should married secular people who become Christians have to get remarried--because they did not have a 'Christian marriage' and thus the marriage was/is not valid??? Thus they were not married but living in fornication just...

But I just remembered where this becomes really problematic for me...so then okay people go to church and believe themselves to be Christian, but they are deceived they are not Christians...or say all the secular people you find in some churches, or the 'pew-dusters' as some call them...should the physical church/preacher refuse to marry anybody they believe not to be Christian? Or to anybody else they believe to not be a Christian...because if this stance is held it can become very judgmental...I mean the church or preacher can hold the 'non-believer card' just like they used the 'witch' card in the past...and just claim against whatever is demonstrated by their mouth, or their life that 'they still are not a Christian' and thus they cannot get married in a church...

So should superficial Christians be allowed to get married in church?
Should Christians have to reach a certain spiritual maturity in Christ before getting married in the church?

Just questions...
tony

[1still_waters]

Originally Posted by thefightinglamb

...I mean the church or preacher can hold the 'non-believer card' just like they used the 'witch' card in the past...and just claim against whatever is demonstrated by their mouth, or their life that 'they still are not a Christian' and thus they cannot get married in a church...

So should superficial Christians be allowed to get married in church?
Should Christians have to reach a certain spiritual maturity in Christ before getting married in the church?

Just questions...
tony

That's a valid point. Sure a preacher could simply pick apart a believers life and deem them not-Christian, and then not marry them. But I think you're using this potential abuse of power as a means to blur the lines between a couple that is truly Christian and a couple that blatantly aren't Christians.

I guess the pastor could do some questioning of the given couple. And ask things like....

1. Do you attend Church regularly?
2. Do you trust in Jesus as the means of restoration of full relationship with God?
3. Do you try your best to live a Christian life as outlined in the Bible?

If the answers to those are yes, then go on with the wedding.

But if answers are no, then ask a new set of questions.

1 Do you intend on attending a Church regularly after you get married? (Please don't turn this in to a debate about the reality that going to church doesn't make one a true Christian. We know going to church doesn't make you a true Christian, but it is usually a major sign of being a Christian, unless there is some extreme legitimate reason for NOT going. In other words, don't get all nit picky about this point. Just stick with me here. Thanks.)

2. Do you intend on trusting Jesus as the means of restoring you to full relationship with God?

3. Do you intend on living your life to the best of your ability as a Christian in the future?

If the answers to the above are YES. Then sure go with the wedding.

But if the answers are NO, then don't go on with the wedding. Because if they are still answering NO, then it's obvious we don't have a case of people just being babes in Christ. It's obvious we don't have an issue of people not living up to a high standard just because they are new in the faith.


Ok and please don't get nit picky about my questions. The point I'm tryin to get across is that there is a way you can draw a line between real Christians or people who intend to give it a try, and people who are just blatantly not Christians, but want to use the building so they can have a pretty ceremony.

[MahogonySnail]

If people don't believe in the Christian faith, then why would they want to get married in a church? It makes about as much sense as me wanting to get married

A couple of reasons. Such as, the church environment is nicer and makes nicer photographs. This is particularly true of old 16th to 18th centuary sandstone churches.

Family tradition - They were baptised in that church and while not professing Christianity, they see it as important to their families traditions.

Societal tradition - at one time in western society, people only ever got married in churches, even if they were only Christian by name or didnt truly believe at all.

I don't think priests should refuse to marry secular people as long as they fit the requirements, ie one man and one woman. I think its ok if they refuse to marry divorced people.

The institution of marriage is not , (and although we like to think it is and claim it as our own), exclusive to the Christian religion. The institution of marriage was set up in Genesis between Adam and Eve and so it encompasses all people regardless of their belief system. If two secular people wish to get married before God, then God may bless them and honor their request and in this way it is a type of evangelism.

[1still_waters]

Originally Posted by MahogonySnail

A couple of reasons. Such as, the church environment is nicer and makes nicer photographs. This is particularly true of old 16th to 18th centuary sandstone churches.

Family tradition - They were baptised in that church and while not professing Christianity, they see it as important to their families traditions.

Societal tradition - at one time in western society, people only ever got married in churches, even if they were only Christian by name or didnt truly believe at all.

I don't think priests should refuse to marry secular people as long as they fit the requirements, ie one man and one woman. I think its ok if they refuse to marry divorced people.

The institution of marriage is not , (and although we like to think it is and claim it as our own), exclusive to the Christian religion. The institution of marriage was set up in Genesis between Adam and Eve and so it encompasses all people regardless of their belief system. If two secular people wish to get married before God, then God may bless them and honor their request and in this way it is a type of evangelism.

You take this out of the 2009 edition of the Unitarian Universalist catechism or something?

Just kidding

[MahogonySnail]

lol, no, I worked for 5 years in weddings for a church which married secular people more often than not. We have had couples start attending the church they were married in and become believers. God's grace doesn't extend just to people who believe a set doctrine or requirements of a particular denomination you know?
It is important for us to try and not be narrow minded fundamentalists who can't see the forrest for the trees. In many churches, marrying secular people and holding church fetes and raffles is the only "evangelism" they do :S

My pastor wont marry anyone unless they go through marriage counseling with him........... that probably has nothing to do with anything.........

[Ryan1976]

Originally Posted by jgrig2

No problem a preacher marying 2 unbelievers OUTSIDE A CHURCH and it is made clear that the he does this an an officier OF THE STATE and not of the church. Church weddings are for Regenerate believers of the Church not just to pleasy grandma or ma. Pastors ought to take a stand on this one. I am of course speaking of protestants and not of catholic priests who clearly just care about the money and not the theology or else they would not have invented the annulement system as pertaining to divorce.

Orthodox Catholics are only allowed to marry baptized persons - preferably other Orthodox. We are allowed to marry protestants and or Roman Catholics but not secular folk and or Jehovah's Witnesses, Christian Scientists, Unitartians, Universalists, Hindus, Muslims, etc. However, marrying protestants/Roman Catholics is usually something that is "talked" about and there is usually some kind of spiritual guidance.

So, no marriage to non-baptized folks. Something about being equally yolked prolly. That and I don't know why The Church would want to get behind someone who is pursuing marriage to a non-believer. Marriage is a model of Christ being married to The Church - a sacrament. It's not just a boyfriend and girlfriend who just love each other n stuff.

For Orthodox we have a three strikes and your out rule in regards to divorce and re-marriages (not out as in ex-communicated by you won't be getting married in The Church). I'm not sure about the history of this but the second and third ceremonies for marriage are different (not as, uh, celebratory but penitent). And in regards to divorce, The Church is completely opposed to it. However, you can't stop people doing what they will do. A lot of this stuff is a case by case issue.

When kids are involved and one wants to become Orthodox and the other is an atheist etc. However, in that case, more than likely they'll be heading to the courthouse.

Also, our Priests aren't for rent. You can't be like, "hey, ya know what would be cool? An Orthodox Priest marrying us." I've never heard of an Orthodox Church being rented out for some non-Orthodox event either. Like, "I think they have pretty architecture let's rent the joint".

*shrug

[Ryan1976]

Originally Posted by SamIam

My pastor wont marry anyone unless they go through marriage counseling with him........... that probably has nothing to do with anything.........

Back in the day this happened to me. lol. Free-Methodist Pastor. However, one further, after counseling, he decided we weren't equally yolked and refused to Marry us.

Wonder whatever happened to that girl anyway...

:P


Funny.

[Ryan1976]

Originally Posted by MahogonySnail

A couple of reasons. Such as, the church environment is nicer and makes nicer photographs. This is particularly true of old 16th to 18th centuary sandstone churches.

Family tradition - They were baptised in that church and while not professing Christianity, they see it as important to their families traditions.

Societal tradition - at one time in western society, people only ever got married in churches, even if they were only Christian by name or didnt truly believe at all.

I don't think priests should refuse to marry secular people as long as they fit the requirements, ie one man and one woman. I think its ok if they refuse to marry divorced people.

The institution of marriage is not , (and although we like to think it is and claim it as our own), exclusive to the Christian religion. The institution of marriage was set up in Genesis between Adam and Eve and so it encompasses all people regardless of their belief system. If two secular people wish to get married before God, then God may bless them and honor their request and in this way it is a type of evangelism.

Hm. Dunno about that one. I mean, give them a bible or something. Witness??? I dunno. That one sounds like it would go down like this:


Now for just $199.99 you can impress all your "religious" relatives and have that very special Heathen wedding that looks and feels just like the real "religious" service. Grandma won't know the difference!

Perhaps you have a large family and would need lots of space. Why not Constantinople!





Or maybe you want something more intimate with more "edge". Something exotic not without a hint of danger. Try the Holy Sepulchre in Jerusalem! *candles sold separately




Call 1-800-WE-R-DESPERATE now.

notice, due to a shred of religious reverence still present in some circles of Christianity, we only marry 1 Male human being to 1 female human being.

Call now for reservations. Our lines are open!

[MahogonySnail]

Although that was a humorous presentation, that is not far from the truth. Churches need money, and one way they get money is from weddings and funerals.

[thefightinglamb]

Was talking to my 'bro'* just now...and had an interesting thought...

Okay as this thread is about two secular people getting married...and as before my brother married his wife who is an atheist I was not sure or supportive of it...

But then the thought occurred to me...is this right? My brother is not 'saved' nor does he claim to be...so is there anything anywhere against making a decision against two secular people marrying each other?

For example, someone seeking Christ who has not given their heart to the Lord yet, can they still marry an atheist? Since they are not Christian, does the rule about being equally yoked not apply yet???

This is important because within the phone conversation I think I changed my mind about my 'bro'* 's marriage...since I used to be completely opposed to it on the basis of thinking an atheist wife would lead him astray from even trying to seek the Lord if he ever dilligently tries to...but the Bible really seems to have no qualms with someone outside of Christianity marrying someone of another religion or atheist...

This came up because my brother was like 'you did not think (opposed to) Mai and I should have married' which view I had held for a long time that it was detrimental to him finding the Lord to marry an atheist...but I am not sure this logic makes since...'Are people not to marry until they become Christian, on fear that the other secular person will keep them from finding the Lord?' Because no matter who a secular person marries if the other person is secular, it is a given that both may lead each other astray--or in other words they both are already astray, so it is not astray to marry an unbeliever...because they already do not believe..

So yes, pray for my 'bro'* and his wife...and for forgiveness for me for being wary of him marrying her, when neither of them were saved...I had NO RIGHT to be opposed to a secualar person from marrying another secualar person...but to go one step farther, I want to restate, if someone was seeking Christ, but had not given their hearts, are they bound not to marry an unbeliever, or since they do not yet believe, they cannot judge, and thus they can marry whosoever they want until they actually become a Christian...

just thoughts

May God be with us all, and illumine the darkness in our lives
tony


*bro is used in place of the english term brother

Honestly, I think it's okay to marry two secular people in the Church. You never know what small action will spark the growth of the seed the Holy Spirit has put in a person. Who knows if one or both of the people getting married used to have a strong relationship with God and gave up, then deciding they wanted a wedding in the Church, realized how much they miss Church and start going again.

Or maybe two secular peopl go get married in a Church and are amazed at how loving and friendly and supportive the congregation and the minister are and decide to give it a try.

Not saying everyone is going to feel like that, but still, we accomplish more showing them love, compassion, and understanding, than we do condemning, shunning, and turning our backs on them.

Haha, nice pictures.

Since this asks if priests should marry non-believers, I will answer from the standpoint of "Should Catholic priests marry non-Catholics"

No. If people just want to get married, they can go to the magistrate and get a marriage license and rent out some fancy place. I don't understand why anyone would want to partake in a ritual/ceremony/service when they don't really believe in the things that said ritual/ceremony/service is based upon. It is an insult to those who do believe and it shows hypocrisy on the part of the non-believer. That would be like baptizing someone just because they thought it would be neat, or to please their family, not because they actually wanted to be baptized into the body of Christ or what have you.

[Sharp]

I tend to agree. What I can't stand is how all the eastern europeans here where I live have christenings and baptisms for their children, but they're not Christians. They just do it so they can get together, dress up, gossip, have their 'tradition' and feel more cultured. You can do that anywhere. Its the same with weddings, you can do it anywhere. One european at work was complaining to me about how when he told a priest of an orthodox church he randomly found that he wanted his newborn son baptised, that the priest was asking him all these 'religious questions'!. He explained to me that baptism was a part of their culture, its just something they do when a child is born, so they just expect a priest to baptise their child and then leave them alone. This way, their child will be protected from evil spirits without having to know anything at all about salvation. So anyway....if I was in charge of a church, and two non-believers wanted me to marry them, I would say yes, subject to 6 months of church attendance and bible study. Any slacking off would result in the cancellation of the wedding. Firm but fair.

Haha, sharp, you're new phrase should be "Shut 'em down!" I mean that in a good way! It is the favorite phrase of a no-nonsense monk I know, and I use it alot.

I guest the Orthodox have the same problem Catholics do. We call these types "Cultural Catholics." They come around about 2 times a year - usually Easter and Christmas - just because thats what they have always done since they were little. They couldn't give a rip about anything else the church has to offer, but hey, if you stay after mass, you might get a free poinsettia! Yay! I actually knew this guy who was a hardcore athiest, but his parents were from Romania or something, so he had his kid baptized into the Orthodox church just to make his parents happy, because it was tradition.

My take on this issue: If you want some of it (a nice pretty wedding), you better be willing to accept all of it (the faith that wedding is a part of).

[Slepsog4]

Performing a wedding is a professional courtesy, not a biblically mandated responsibility.

The problem is that the RCC believes it has authority over marriage. They believe no one is really married unless the wedding has been approved by the RCC, secular or otherwise.

That's actually not true. The RCC recognizes the bonds of marriage between a man and a woman, regardless of if they were married in the Catholic Church or any other Christian church. If Jane is Baptist and John is Baptist, and they get married in a Baptist church, the Catholic Church says they're truly married! If Jane and John were to decide they wanted to be Catholic and join the Catholic Church, well, they wouldn't have to get re-married or anything. Their marriage is valid and legal in the eyes of the RCC.

And being Baptists, I bet the reception had some really good food.