Doing the Torah - God's written word..

[Men2Live]

I am sure that in this forum there are many opinions about The Torah (The Law). Why is it christians don't do the word of God? Did Yeshua (Jesus) set us free from The Law? Is that what he did? I will give you the answer. The answer is NO! Does it not say: "Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. (Matthew 5:17-19). Has heaven and earth pass? Was everything fulfilled? NO! Everything will be fulfilled when he returns the second time.

There is not a verse in the New Testament that implies that the Torah (The Law) is canceled. Christians will come and say: "For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace." (Romans 6:14) and they will also say: "For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death. But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter." (Romans 7:5-6). What Shaul (Paul) really says here and in other passages is that we are no longer under the penalty of sin and death of the Law. What Yeshua did is free us from the law of sin and death that came with The Torah and chained us with handcuffs as if we were put in prison. Yeshua died on the cross to set us free from the sin of the flesh, but rather live in the spirit.

In conclusion, we must follow the written word because it is the word of God. Yehsua is the word of God who came in flesh. It is not the Old Testament, but should be called the bible or Tanach (in Hebrew) and the New Testament is the renewed covenant between God with his creation like in prophecy in the book of Isaiah.

May God bless you and keep you!
Nadav

 

[Cup-of-Ruin]

I am sure that in this forum there are many opinions about The Torah (The Law). Why is it christians don't do the word of God? Did Yeshua (Jesus) set us free from The Law? Is that what he did? I will give you the answer. The answer is NO! Does it not say: "Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. (Matthew 5:17-19). Has heaven and earth pass? Was everything fulfilled? NO! Everything will be fulfilled when he returns the second time.

There is not a verse in the New Testament that implies that the Torah (The Law) is canceled. Christians will come and say: "For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace." (Romans 6:14) and they will also say: "For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death. But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter." (Romans 7:5-6). What Shaul (Paul) really says here and in other passages is that we are no longer under the penalty of sin and death of the Law. What Yeshua did is free us from the law of sin and death that came with The Torah and chained us with handcuffs as if we were put in prison. Yeshua died on the cross to set us free from the sin of the flesh, but rather live in the spirit.

In conclusion, we must follow the written word because it is the word of God. Yehsua is the word of God who came in flesh. It is not the Old Testament, but should be called the bible or Tanach (in Hebrew) and the New Testament is the renewed covenant between God with his creation like in prophecy in the book of Isaiah.

May God bless you and keep you!
Nadav

Greetings,

Jesus fulfills the law; the word is pleroo - now this word has the meaning of 'perfecting' by 'levelling up' or to 'furnish', 'finish' 'fully' 'complete'...

Hebrews: 8:5-6

"Who serve unto the example and shadow of heavenly things, as Moses was admonished by God when he was about to make the tabernacle: for, "see" saith He, "that thou make all things according to the pattern shewed to thee in the mount." But now He hath obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also He is the Mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises."

Now Jesus Christ is the Mediator of the better covenant because the old one was not acceptable, who issued the first one, He did - Jesus Christ because He is God, and He has proclaimed Himself God of heaven and earth.

Hebrews: 8:7-9

"For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place been sought for the second. For finding fault with them, He saith "Behold, the days have come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the hous of Israel and with the house of Judah. Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand and lead them out of Egypt, because they continued not in My covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord."

Right so there we have it that the House of Judah and the House of Israel are now and have already been in the new covenant since the resurrection of Jesus Christ, and that is how the Bible tells us that all the House of Judah and all the House of Israel became Christian;

"In that He saith, "A new covenant" He hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away."

So the old covenant is vanished, gone, decayed, dead and buried and the new covenant has been in force with the House of Judah and the House of Israel since the resurrection and that is why God's children became Chistains, because God is Christ, He is the everlasting Father whom has saved His children.

"For this is the covenant that I will make with the House of Israel, after those days, saith the Lord; I will put My laws into their mind and write them on their hearts; and I will be unto them a God, and they will be unto Me a people."

 

[jgrig2]

I would reccomend you study the doctrine of the active obedience of Christ to understand the Reformed view of the Law. Because of Christ's perfect obedience to it, and his perfect righteousness is imputed to us by faith alone God no longer holds the Christian to that standard. Also remind me to sometime to write a post concerning the current trends in persons using hebrew names and an obsession with all things jewish in evangelical circles and that being the spirituality du jour.

 

[Cup-of-Ruin]

I would reccomend you study the doctrine of the active obedience of Christ to understand the Reformed view of the Law. Because of Christ's perfect obedience to it, and his perfect righteousness is imputed to us by faith alone God no longer holds the Christian to that standard. Also remind me to sometime to write a post concerning the current trends in persons using hebrew names and an obsession with all things jewish in evangelical circles and that being the spirituality du jour.

Yes very true, also Jesus' first language was Greek and the Apostles and all the Israelites at that time spoke Koine Greek, so Jesus would have been known as IESOUS, which correctly translates into English - Jesus.

All this Masoretic Hebrew or Mel Gibson Aramaic are just secondary witnesses and langauges, Koine Greek is the languge of the New Testament and it is the language that Jesus Christ spoke, He could speak Aramaic, He could speak any langauge He wanted to, and did....

 

[jgrig2]

Yes very true, also Jesus' first language was Greek and the Apostles and all the Israelites at that time spoke Koine Greek, so Jesus would have been known as IESOUS, which correctly translates into English - Jesus.

All this Masoretic Hebrew or Mel Gibson Aramaic are just secondary witnesses and langauges, Koine Greek is the languge of the New Testament and it is the language that Jesus Christ spoke, He could speak Aramaic, He could speak any langauge He wanted to, and did....

Not all scholars would agree even with that. In truth we do not know for sure which language was primarly used. For sure it have been some form of greek for the Pauline episltles and koine for sure for John's stuff (maybe not revelation) but one thing to remember that while the majority of persons could not read or white they could speak 3-5 languages quite easily amoung themselves. But there is a psuedo-spirituality outthere that I was involved in my pre-reformed days that was based on an extreme form of dispensationalism. I even got a tatoto because of that and lied in these circles that i was half jewish to gain respect. I regret lying but sadly it worked.

 

[Cup-of-Ruin]

Not all scholars would agree even with that. In truth we do not know for sure which language was primarly used. For sure it have been some form of greek for the Pauline episltles and koine for sure for John's stuff (maybe not revelation) but one thing to remember that while the majority of persons could not read or white they could speak 3-5 languages quite easily amoung themselves. But there is a psuedo-spirituality outthere that I was involved in my pre-reformed days that was based on an extreme form of dispensationalism. I even got a tatoto because of that and lied in these circles that i was half jewish to gain respect. I regret lying but sadly it worked.

Greetings

Well I would encourage you to study further independantly the etymological history of Biblical langauges, as it is vitally important to biblical interpretation. You will also find from a historical perspective that it agrees with the scriptual record that the Koine Greek was the langauge that Jesus and the Apostles were using, also note that in the oldest OT scriptues are also in Greek and that the Masorectic Hebrew version was completed in 1009 AD by Masorete Preists, the Hebrew was a formulated language derived from phoenician and Aramaic, Babylonian Aramiac.

 

[Men2Live]

I am sorry. You have yet to understand some very crucial things. First off, the passage in Hebrews 8 talks about Yeshua being the high priest and whom is greater and in that better promises were made because we are no longer enslaved to The Law (the punishment, not The Law itself). What does that mean? the prophecy in Jeremiah promises a newer covenant/renewed contract between God and mankind sealed in blood which makes it everlasting. Read your bible and if you are still convinced that you are free from The Law, why do you read it? it no longer applies to you. However, if it does apply to you, DO IT!

2. The trend in Hebrew names?! If you have noticed, I am a Jew and I live in Israel and speak the language. I have lived my whole life in Israel and now I'm serving my country in the military like everyone else does. During the time of Yehsua the spoken language was Hebrew as no. 1, Greek, Latin, Aramaic was a secondary language. In Israel, Hebrew was the spoken language (before Babylonian exile it was biblical Hebrew). When the Romans ruled, all the rest of the languages were also spoken in order to communicate with the Roman Empire. Do you know why Yeshua's name is as it is? Yehsua means Yeshu'a that means salvation. That is what he did.

 

[Men2Live]

Right so there we have it that the House of Judah and the House of Israel are now and have already been in the new covenant since the resurrection of Jesus Christ, and that is how the Bible tells us that all the House of Judah and all the House of Israel became Christian;

I am sorry.... you made me laugh! We become christians? talking about mixing theology...

 

[MahogonySnail]

Men2Live, firstly, in practice what does it mean that you are not set free from the Law? Do you keep it in some way? I was under the impression that since the ritual sacrifices etc ceased due to destruction of the Temple and other such events, it was in fact impossible for anyone to keep the law, so there are only about 297 of the 613 that you can actually keep? And since you can only keep 297 of them, aren't you not really keeping the law anyway yourself, in the sense that Jesus meant in Matt 5:17?

Secondly , I would think that if you are set free from a penalty of a law, you also are set free from the law itself ? A law without a penalty, really no longer exists as a law but as an optional observance.

 

[Cup-of-Ruin]

I am sorry. You have yet to understand some very crucial things. First off, the passage in Hebrews 8 talks about Yeshua being the high priest and whom is greater and in that better promises were made because we are no longer enslaved to The Law (the punishment, not The Law itself). What does that mean? the prophecy in Jeremiah promises a newer covenant/renewed contract between God and mankind sealed in blood which makes it everlasting. Read your bible and if you are still convinced that you are free from The Law, why do you read it? it no longer applies to you. However, if it does apply to you, DO IT!

Jeremiah prophecises Jer. 31:31 - that is confirmed by the blood of Jesus Christ, the new covenant as per Hebrews 8:8-12 is with the House of Israel and the House of Judah. Jesus Christ is a High Preist for ever, it's an eternal Preisthood after the order of Melchisedek, see Melchisedek met Abraham and Abraham tithed to Melchisedek whom is the King of peace having neither beginning nor end, this is the higher Preisthood, Christ as King, always has been and always will be. See Christ born after the pattern of the order of Mechisedek, not the order of Aaron.

Hebrews 10:16

"This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the LORD; I will put My laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them, And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more."

The new covenant is in force, it's enacted, what was prophecised by Jeremiah is confirmed in the Book of Hebrews.

. During the time of Yehsua the spoken language was Hebrew as no. 1, Greek, Latin, Aramaic was a secondary language.

The Herodian Script was being formulated in Judea under the Herodian scribes, it was not a complete language, Babylonaian Aramaic was the foundation for the Herodian script from which the Masorete Preists developed 'Hebrew', Hebrew is a hybrid language, a cross between Aramaic and Phoenician, sometimes modern profane sources mistakenly call Phoenician - 'Paleo-Hebrew' but that is completely untrue, Phoenician is known by linguists and historians to be the more ancient language, Hebrew is really an A.D. language probably around 300-400 A.D. The language the Jesus spoke and read Koine Greek as the Septuagint was the scripture he used as it was the only one in existence at the time, Now Babylonian Aramaic and Chaldee are the ancient eastern languages, but the Greek was established of Canaan since Alexander the Great, Greek was the main language of the area and indeen the language of the Israelites at the time of Christ, that is really beyond dispute.

In Israel, Hebrew was the spoken language (before Babylonian exile it was biblical Hebrew). When the Romans ruled, all the rest of the languages were also spoken in order to communicate with the Roman Empire. Do you know why Yeshua's name is as it is? Yehsua means Yeshu'a that means salvation. That is what he did.

'Yeshua' is Masoretic Hebrew traced to the Leningrad Codex manuscript which was written approx. 1009 A.D. it is translated from the original Greek with the Aramaic Targums as the bridge.

 

[Men2Live]

You are right. There are some laws that cannot be kept because he don't have a temple but what you can do is to keep all the rest of the commandments like "Rosh Chodesh" - 1st of the month - cycle of the moon to a new moon and you do according what the bible requires you to do minus the sacrifices.

I want to correct you. The new covenant that is sealed by the blood of our Messiah - Yeshua, freed us from the law (the penalty) and therefore we are under grace (Romans 6:14). Doesn't Shaul (Paul) say to strip yourself from sin/flesh/old nature and put on the new nature that is holy and that we walk in the spirit (Ep. 4:22-24). Paul even says it very clear about the subject in the opening verses in Romans 8 - "There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set me free from the law of sin and death. 3 For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do: sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, he condemned sin in the flesh, 4 in order that the just requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit..."

 

[MahogonySnail]

According to Acts 15, it would appear that for gentiles, to obseve things such as Rosh Chodesh is not required. ?

 

[BLC]

Jesus Christ did two things in relationship to the law. He fulfilled the prophecy of the law and of the prophets and fulfilled the righteousness of the law (Mt 3:15, John 15:25, Lk 24:44, ) as the God-man (the Son of God and the Son of man). He was the only one that could do it and He did it in his humanity without sin, without iniquity and without transgression (Heb 4:15). The law came by Moses but grace and truth came by Christ (John 1:14,17). It took grace and truth to fulfill the law of righteousness. He became our sin, who knew no sin, and suffered through death the penalty of the sin that He became, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him by faith (2Cor 5:21). When we believed upon the Son, He became our righteousness (Col 1:30) who fulfilled the law.

The righteousness that we have received from Him is a gift of grace of a completed act that was accomplished on the cross (Rom 5:17, John 19:30, Col 2:10). There is nothing we have to do to fulfill that righteousness that we have received by grace of Him, who fulfilled it (Phil 3:9). The justice of God and His righteousness was satisfied by Christ, the perfect Lamb of God who was sacrificed without spot or blemish (Heb 9:14, 1Pt 1:19) and all our righteousness comes from Him and through Him. The grace that gave us the gift of righteousness reigns through that righteousness unto eternal life, not by us but by Him who gave it, Jesus Christ (Rom 5:19-21). So without doing a single act of righteousness according to the law, we are made completely righteous and justified, before a Holy God, through faith in Christ and through a gift of righteousness given by grace.

Now we are free to serve a living God by faith in the blood and merits of Christ according to grace and truth and not according to the works of the law of righteousness (Heb 9:14). We don't condemn the law because it is holy and it led us to Christ as a schoolmaster (Rom 7:12, Gal 3:24,25), but we are not condemned by the law because we are under grace (Rom 6:14,15; 8:3). We have been given grace, the word of God and the Holy Spirit through Jesus Christ to walk in, to live by and to be guided into all truth (John 16:13). As we get to know the person of truth, Jesus Christ (John 14:6) and walk in His grace we are free to give what we have received. Freely receive, freely give and of His fullness have we received grace for grace (Mt 10:8, Rom 8:32). This is the law of the Spirit of life that has made us free from the law of sin and death (Rom 8:4).

 

[Ryan1976]

You are right. There are some laws that cannot be kept because he don't have a temple but what you can do is to keep all the rest of the commandments like "Rosh Chodesh" - 1st of the month - cycle of the moon to a new moon and you do according what the bible requires you to do minus the sacrifices.

The Church (Eastern Orthodox) lives in the eschatological "kairos" of Pentecost - of after the giving of the Holy Spirit. ie. the Feast of the Booths disappeared when the Church cycles were created.

On the Sunday of the Judgment, Orthodox present a reading of Matthew 25:31-46 - a connection to the Kippur - atonement. Hullin 60b

Pascha is the most important day in the ecclesiastical year and pretty much all of the feast days are dependent upon it.

The feasts are not unlike the way in which, pre-resurrection, Moses and all the prophets were read one way (in conjunction with Traditions written?/oral) and then post-resurrection - Christologically, though still in conjunction with Traditions written and oral.

(there's some debate on the Jewish side of the written vs oral deal and not really knowing your background or current faith, threw a question mark up in case you care to share.)

I am by no means dissuading you from recognizing Feasts. However, if you seek to understand some of the present feasts there's a possibility that you'll find that some of them are still "in there".

God bless



Ever been here? If not, go for me please and report back. I would really like to attend.

[video]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZxMHUClhqSU&feature[/video]

 

[Cup-of-Ruin]

You are right. There are some laws that cannot be kept because he don't have a temple but what you can do is to keep all the rest of the commandments like "Rosh Chodesh" - 1st of the month - cycle of the moon to a new moon and you do according what the bible requires you to do minus the sacrifices.

Oh He has a Temple alright.

Hebrews 9:1-4, 11-12

"It had, indeed, then even the first tabernale ordinances of service, also a worldly santuary, for a tabernacle was prepared, the first, in which was the lamp-stand, and the table, and the bread of the presence - which is called 'Holy', and after the second vail a tabernacle that is called a 'Holy of Holies,' having a golden censer, and the ark of the covenant overlaid all round about with gold, in which is the golden pot having manna, and, and the rod of Aaron that budded, and the tables of the covenant -

"And Christ being come, chief priest of the coming good things, through the greater and more perfect tabernacle not made with human hands - that is not of this creation."

etc, etc...

What we have as Christians is a new tabernacle not made of human hands, a more perfect tabernacle not of this creation but Christ Himself - as it is said 'unless you eat My flesh and drink My blood'!

not into a holy place made by human hands did Christ enter - figures of the true - but heaven itself, now to be manifested in the presence og God for us.

For He said 'Lo, I come to do, O God, Thy will;' he doth take away the first that he may establish the second.