Who is the Father?

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Jan 8, 2009
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#41
Cup you are a modalist obviously. That will make it hard for us to come to some agreement on this issue. But that said, the fact that Jesus shares in the Father's eternal glory I have no issue with. The issue is you terribly confuse the roles of the Father and the Son and it is no use posting scripture to show such distinctions as you won't believe anyway. So yeah, got it, add modalism to your list of ever growing doctrinal errors.

KJV says
Rev 22:13IamAlphaandOmega,thebeginningandtheend,thefirstandthelast.

Not sure which bible version you are using.
 
C

Cup-of-Ruin

Guest
#42
Cup you are a modalist obviously. That will make it hard for us to come to some agreement on this issue. But that said, the fact that Jesus shares in the Father's eternal glory I have no issue with. The issue is you terribly confuse the roles of the Father and the Son and it is no use posting scripture to show such distinctions as you won't believe anyway. So yeah, got it, add modalism to your list of ever growing doctrinal errors.

KJV says
Rev 22:13IamAlphaandOmega,thebeginningandtheend,thefirstandthelast.

Not sure which bible version you are using.
Revelation 1:8,

I use several Bible versions and they all agree on Rev 1:8.
 
Jul 17, 2009
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#43
lol......that is hilarious, however I would not go by comentaries, but instead I would be taught by the Holy Spirit Himself.

While knowledge and wisdom are not synonymous there are plenty of commentaries, despite the commentators religious affiliation (the majority of bible scholars are secular!), that offers up a bit of historical context and or useful information. For instance, to say that the Holy Spirit leads you to understand ancient Jewish customs without actually going through the process of learning about them, while not impossible, is probably not likely. Like that story of the guy who was shipwrecked at sea:

People get in the lifeboat and offer a seat to the guy but the guy says, "No thanks. The Lord will rescue me."

A rescue boat comes along but the guy says, "No thanks. The Lord will rescue me."

A helicopter comes along but the guy say, "No thanks. The Lord will rescue me."

The guy drowns.

Standing in Heaven the guy asks the Lord, why didn't you rescue me from drowning?

The Lord might say to him, "I tried. I saved you a seat on the lifeboat, sent you a rescue boat and then a helicopter. What more do you want?"


My point is this. If you're really really really honest with yourself, you'll realize that you are reaping the benefits of God having already worked out a lot of issues with other humans less "fortunate" than yourself. Imagine you never even read the bible or knew which books were in it. Now lets say that you became a Christian and were now "Spirit Led". Now lets say that I put all the gnostic gospels and all the false scriptures and teachings that were floating around back in the day in front of you and in that mix were also the books and teachings that we now know are "Holy". In other words, looking at the mountain of falsities, what if you had to pick out which books should be canonical and which were heretical and you would have to know why? I couldn't do it and especially not alone.

There was great debate over certain books in our current NT canon, whether they should be considered HOLY, for all time and for all believers to come. The same Spirit led men that came together to canonize the books that you now know as sacred went through a lot a lot a lot of difficult trials and long-suffering in order to offer, not to themselves but to the body of Christ, a trustworthy canon. Those same men gave us the doctrine of Trinity. These men were spiritually wiser than us. They had gone through much more trial and tribulation than us and were showed approved. The knew scripture a lot better than us. God, through those same men, established safeguards that, if we are honest with ourselves, will keep us from being easily devoured by the hordes of wolves out there.

Or you can dub your private experience with Him as Supreme and Infallible, excommunicate the past, ignoring what God established through his people and history, pretend the bible just dropped down from Heaven in book form, especially for you, ignore every rescue boat that swings by to pick you up and just say to every effort to save you, "The Lord will rescue me."

He sent you the boat, what more do you want?

Psalm 2

1 Why do the nations conspire [a]
and the peoples plot in vain?
2 The kings of the earth take their stand
and the rulers gather together
against the LORD
and against his Anointed One. [b]
3 "Let us break their chains," they say,
"and throw off their fetters."
4 The One enthroned in heaven laughs;
the Lord scoffs at them.
5 Then he rebukes them in his anger
and terrifies them in his wrath, saying,
6 "I have installed my King [c]
on Zion, my holy hill. "
7 I will proclaim the decree of the LORD :
He said to me, "You are my Son [d] ;
today I have become your Father. [e]
8 Ask of me,
and I will make the nations your inheritance,
the ends of the earth your possession.
9 You will rule them with an iron scepter [f] ;
you will dash them to pieces like pottery."
10 Therefore, you kings, be wise;
be warned, you rulers of the earth.
11 Serve the LORD with fear
and rejoice with trembling.
12 Kiss the Son, lest he be angry
and you be destroyed in your way,
for his wrath can flare up in a moment.
Blessed are all who take refuge in him.




Proverbs 8

Wisdom's Call

1 Does not wisdom call out?
Does not understanding raise her voice? 2 On the heights along the way,
where the paths meet, she takes her stand;
3 beside the gates leading into the city,
at the entrances, she cries aloud:
4 "To you, O men, I call out;
I raise my voice to all mankind.
5 You who are simple, gain prudence;
you who are foolish, gain understanding.
6 Listen, for I have worthy things to say;
I open my lips to speak what is right.
7 My mouth speaks what is true,
for my lips detest wickedness.
8 All the words of my mouth are just;
none of them is crooked or perverse.
9 To the discerning all of them are right;
they are faultless to those who have knowledge.
10 Choose my instruction instead of silver,
knowledge rather than choice gold,
11 for wisdom is more precious than rubies,
and nothing you desire can compare with her.
12 "I, wisdom, dwell together with prudence;
I possess knowledge and discretion.
13 To fear the LORD is to hate evil;
I hate pride and arrogance,
evil behavior and perverse speech.
14 Counsel and sound judgment are mine;
I have understanding and power.
15 By me kings reign
and rulers make laws that are just;
16 by me princes govern,
and all nobles who rule on earth. [a]
17 I love those who love me,
and those who seek me find me.
18 With me are riches and honor,
enduring wealth and prosperity.
19 My fruit is better than fine gold;
what I yield surpasses choice silver.
20 I walk in the way of righteousness,
along the paths of justice,
21 bestowing wealth on those who love me
and making their treasuries full.
22 "The LORD brought me forth as the first of his works, [b] , [c]
before his deeds of old;
23 I was appointed [d] from eternity,
from the beginning, before the world began.
24 When there were no oceans, I was given birth,
when there were no springs abounding with water;
25 before the mountains were settled in place,
before the hills, I was given birth,
26 before he made the earth or its fields
or any of the dust of the world.
27 I was there when he set the heavens in place,
when he marked out the horizon on the face of the deep,
28 when he established the clouds above
and fixed securely the fountains of the deep,
29 when he gave the sea its boundary
so the waters would not overstep his command,
and when he marked out the foundations of the earth.
30 Then I was the craftsman at his side.
I was filled with delight day after day,
rejoicing always in his presence,
31 rejoicing in his whole world
and delighting in mankind.
32 "Now then, my sons, listen to me;
blessed are those who keep my ways.
33 Listen to my instruction and be wise;
do not ignore it.
34 Blessed is the man who listens to me,
watching daily at my doors,
waiting at my doorway.
35 For whoever finds me finds life
and receives favor from the LORD.
36 But whoever fails to find me harms himself;
all who hate me love death."
 
Jul 17, 2009
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#44
God never states His divine nature as being a trinity of seperate identities, 3 is not even His divine number, 7 is!
The number six stands for falling short, incompleteness, imperfection. Seven, for perfection, fullness, completion. Eight for eschatological perfection, a superabundance of fullness. The sixth day, Friday, is the day of preparation, the seventh, the Sabbath, Saturday, a picture of the rest to come, the eighth day, Sunday, the day of the resurrection, the final establishment of God's Kingdom. The numerical equivalent of "Jesus" in Greek is 888. The numerical equivalent of "Nero Caesar" transliterated from Greek into Hebrew is 666, meaning the epitome of created inadequacy. The numerical equivalent of "Nero Caesar" transliterated from Latin into Hebrew is 616 (if you check out some of the ancient texts, they don't read 666 but 616). If St. John, when he wrote the 666 passage was referring to Domitian, who a lot of folks considered to be Nero reincarnated, it would be safer for him not to refer to the present persecutor but to the one long gone. Hence the play on numbers.

Why does this seem to have anything to do with your post?

666 could also be symbolic of a falling short of perfection in each of its digits, failure upon failure upon failure, an (anti-type) Evil Trinity which always falls short of the Holy Trinity, 777. Three sevens..



Holy, Holy, Holy
 
Jan 31, 2009
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#45
Trinitarian doesn't have to mean 3 seperate beings..

One God who has a triune nature.. is Trinitarian!

Not trinitarian would be believing there is no Holy Spirit.. or Son.. just the Father I would have thought.

But in the end.. this whole thread doesn't matter a huge amount as long as all 3 - Father, Son and Holy Spirit are equally God. Son as divine as the FAther is.. Holy Spirit as divine as them aswell..

You get away from basic christian doctrine once you start saying Jesus was a lesser God.. or not God.

But.. in studying Jesus' name.. He links to the Father's name anyway..

Jesus’ name traced back – links to

H3068
[FONT=&quot]יהוה[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]yehôvâh[/FONT]
yeh-ho-vaw'
From H1961; (the) self Existent or eternal; Jehovah, Jewish national name of God: - Jehovah, the Lord. Compare H3050, H3069.

Jesus is LORD—Lord links back to H3068 - Jehovah

(Joh 8:56) Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.

(Joh 8:57) Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?

(Joh 8:58) Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

Gen 18:32 And he said, Oh let not the Lord be angry, and I will speak yet but this once: Peradventure ten shall be found there. And he said, I will not destroy it for ten's sake.
Gen 18:33 And the LORD went his way, as soon as he had left communing with Abraham: and Abraham returned unto his place.

Lord – links back to Jehovah

Exo 3:14 And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.

God- In Exo 3:14 = Elohiym

there are several places in the Bible that has the Holy trinity within the scriptures, as seperate being so I have no problem with God, the Father , the Son, and the Holy Spirit as being seperate. when Jesus was baptised we have The Father speaking from heaven, the Spirit descending like a Dove to rest on the Son, which was on earth.
 
Apr 23, 2009
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#46
I'm a Trinitarian. In the modalist understanding, God praying to Himself makes no sense, as Cup of Ruin explained it. "we all talk to ourselves". Talking to oneself is a sign of insanity and I don't think God needs to do that.
No matter what satnce you take, whether it be Trinitarian, Modalism, or true Oneness, if you believe that Jesus was fully God and prayed to God then you believe that God prayed to Himself. There is no way around it unless you are polytheistic or you do not believe Jesus to be God at all.
 

wattie

Senior Member
Feb 24, 2009
3,027
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New Zealand
#48
My belief in one being with three essences or substances.. doesn't come from being Pentecostal.. I am Independent Missionary Baptist..

It comes from reading through God doings in Genesis all through.. where He works together with the Holy Spirit and the Son doing the same thing.. as one being.

Like I typed before..

God is a Spirit the name for God being used is

G2316
θεός
theos
theh'-os
Of uncertain affinity; a deity, especially (with G3588) the supreme Divinity; figuratively a magistrate; by Hebraism very: - X exceeding, God, god [-ly, -ward].

In Genesis the Spirit of God-- the word for God used here is H430
אלהים

'ĕlôhîym
el-o-heem'
Plural of H433; gods in the ordinary sense; but specifically used (in the plural thus, especially with the article) of the supreme God; occasionally applied by way of deference to magistrates; and sometimes as a superlative: - angels, X exceeding, God (gods) (-dess, -ly), X (very) great, judges, X mighty.

So the Holy Spirit links to Elohiym

Then with Jesus saying I AM.. that links back to exodus-- with the name for God as Elohiym

In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth-- the word for God here in Genesis is also Elohiym


In Revelation - this book is the revelation of Jesus Christ to the seven churches.. which becomes the Spirit speaking to the churches.. they are taken as the same.

anyway..

enough from me..

The Father does have a different expression to the Son and the Holy Spirit.. but just as mind, body and soul are different functions of a body.. they are still equally fully expressions of one being.

This isn't God hopping in and out of different states.. all 3 expressions can work at the same time.. as in when you see the dove descending on Jesus and the Father talking..

this is a snapshot of something that is already occuring.. not that the dove wasn't present with Jesus before this.

over and out
 
Jan 8, 2009
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#49
No matter what satnce you take, whether it be Trinitarian, Modalism, or true Oneness, if you believe that Jesus was fully God and prayed to God then you believe that God prayed to Himself. There is no way around it unless you are polytheistic or you do not believe Jesus to be God at all.
So if you are a father and your son talks to you and you and your son are one of the same, that is talking to yourself? Well yes I agree, but then you'd have to believe in the heresy of modalism because father and son are one and the same.


But if the son and the father are two different persons, and the son talks to the father, that is not the son talking to himself, even if your son shares in your genetics, traits and divine nature. When we say "Jesus is God", we don't mean the same as God the Father. There is God the Father, God the Son, and God the Spirit. They are all God, but God the Father is not the same as God the Son. It is important to make those distinctions clear. Because saying "Jesus is God", "the Father is God", therefore "Jesus must be the Father", is not correct at all according to the trinitarian understanding.
 
Jan 8, 2009
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#50
Does God talk to Himself? No, God is a triune being. The correct thing to say is not "God talks to Himself", but "God talks amongst themselves". Throughout the scriptures, the deity of God is referred to as a plurality, starting right back at Genesis. God does not talk to Himself. But God the Son does talk to God the Father and vice versa, and the Holy Spirit. These three are One. But the One does not take upon itself a form of a one person that can talk to itself, but three persons.
 
Jan 8, 2009
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#51
The following article clearly explains how Jesus cannot be the Father nor praying to Himself:
http://www.carm.org/religious-movements/oneness-pentecostal/debate-topic-trinity-doctrine-biblical

God is not one person

Now, Oneness theology teaches that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are really one person. In fact, it maintains that Jesus is the one person of God. Different explanations have been offered by Oneness believers on how this is possible. Some say Jesus has manifested himself in three modes. Others say three offices.
Generally, my research into Oneness theology has led me to understand that they teach that when Jesus was praying to the Father, it was actually his flesh praying to his divinity!
But this makes no sense because it risks the very incarnation of God. Basically, if the Word which was God and was with God, became flesh and dwelt among us as John 1:1 and 14 say, then we have a total incarnation of the person of the Word, not a partial incarnation of some aspect of divinity that is separated from the personhood of Jesus by having the fleshly part of Christ pray to the divine part which are, apparently, in different locations. Remember, in the Garden of Gesthemene, Jesus was praying to the Father. This means that the Son in the Garden, was praying to the Father in heaven. But, if Jesus is the Father, then how is this possible?
It is the Trinity that makes possible the true incarnation of the Word in physical form in the person of the Son. Thus we have in the single person of Jesus, two natures: the divine and human, inseparable from the person of the Son. And, when the Son prayed to the Father, he was actually praying to the person of the Father, not the divine aspect of himself.
 
Feb 27, 2007
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#52
lol......that is hilarious, however I would not go by comentaries, but instead I would be taught by the Holy Spirit Himself.
read ephesians 6: 13-18 talks of the armour of God... (I'm sure you are well familiar) In particular, the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God... I got this when I read your post about being taught by the Holy Spirit himself... the Holy spirit gives us discernment... Gods word gives us insight into God. Anyway I felt pressed to write about the sword of the Spirit being the word of God as i'm not sure what commentaries you refer to... hopefully just the commentaries written in here by man and you arent refering to the word of God as commentaries. Blessings to you.
 
B

Broern

Guest
#53
Anyone who do not have the "God kind" of faith that the Bible is the word of God will not accept the person of God the Father. The Bible says God the Father had spoken to the disciples through a voice from heaven. Jesus Christ is His son and we must hear Him. Man's knowledge is very limited to the boundary of this earth and can not touch the universe even on what is happening now to the Morning star.

Because of the limitation of man to know and understand what is happening outside this earth or the universe, he need to deceive himself just to satisfy the ego as all-knowing. Man pretend to know all about the Christian God. The Bible say, the wisdom of this world is foolishness to God. God the Father was heard from heaven, Jesus was present then, and the Holy Spirit power was present doing miracles with Jesus Christ.

God the Father is the Father, Jesus Christ is the only begotten son, the Holy Spirit is now present in this world and resides in the spirit of man who believe and accept Jesus Christ as savior and Lord in life. Carnal man can not believe this. Only spiritual Christian will know this by heart. To illustrate the limitation of man, the brain of man can be seen and touch by man. But the mind is a mystery although the we can use it. The unseen mind of man was given by God at the time of creation. I pray that people who feel they have the mind be reminded that it was given by God the Father through and for Jesus Christ. No one can come to the Father but through Jesus Christ because Jesus is the way, the truth and the life. Thanks to my Sunday school teacher who taught me this verse from the Bible about 50 years ago.
 
Apr 23, 2009
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#57
That's the same thing Muslims argue against the Christian God ;)
Not against the true Christian God of the Bible, but against what they percieve to be the christian God because of the Christian teaching of the Trinity.
 
G

Graybeard

Guest
#58
The Trinity arguments continue, and probably will never cease, why do we as mere men try and explain this mystery?, because that is what it is, a mystery....We will never and cannot wrap this great wonder about The Almighty around our little brains so why do we continue to argue our own little interpretations day after day. All will be revealed and will be understood when our Lord returns.
....do we as parents try and explain conception to a babe? I think not, just the same we are children of God and there are many issues we just cannot even try to understand as humans.
Let God be God
 
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