Romans 9 Calvin vs freewill

[eternally-gratefull]

This came from a teaching I did in church about 3 years ago. I told some people I would post this. I know it is long, but I hope not to long.

so lets look at romans 9 from both perspectives. I do not want this to be an argument, But a study.. And hope it comes across this way.

Romans 9. The soverignty of God.

Rom 9 has had a major roll in the history of Christianity, it deals with this issue of God’s sovereign strategy in human history. Have you ever wondered if something that happened to you, maybe a tragedy or something strange is part of some plan, maybe even predestined to occur? A lot of people believe this.

Fatalsim is a term given by many for a belief that we have a specific fate that we are destined to, and there is nothing we can do about it. This view is probably the majority view we have in the world today. Eastern religion teaches life and destiny determined by carmic law. and mankind helpless to change it.

Islam. Anwar Sedaat would not wear a bullet proof vest, he stated if Allah says it is my time to die, I am going to die whether I wear this or not. My destiny has been predetermined. (predestination) Suicide bombers believe this also. if th ebomb goes off, it was Allah's will.

In Christianity it has become the Majority belief among protestants. This goes even for salvation, I was listening to someone the other day who stated man has no free will. He states we are so depraved we could not possibly chose God or Good. Gods grace is irresistible, We have no choice. It is like we all are in a sea of Sin, And God chooses who to reach and rescue, and who to let drown in their own sin. Once he decides who to rescue, the decision is final. Man has no say in the matter, and who are we to argue with God? he is the savior and he has the right to do whatever he wants.

Augustine states Romans 9 gave him the basis on which he formed this belief, Calvin and Luther also used it to base their beliefs.

I am cutting and pasting from what I had as my notes, and I have added to those notes to make it more readable. I also have cut some out to make it smaller. so bear with me, as I have to past, then format each post to make it more readable.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

So lets look at romans 9, starting at verse 6.

6 But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For they are not all Israel who are descended from Israel; 7 nor are they all children because they are Abraham’s descendants, but: “Through Isaac your descendants will be named.” 8 That is, those who are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God; but the children of the promise are counted as the seed. 9 For this is the word of promise: “At this time I will come and Sarah shall have a son.” 10 And not only this, but when Rebecca also had conceived by one man, even by our father Isaac 11 (for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls), 12 it was said to her, “The older shall serve the younger.” 13 As it is written, “Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated.”

we see in the first part of the passage Gods soverignty already,

1, It does not matter if you are children of Abraham or not. God only chose Isaac, He rejected Ishmael and all of his pother kids.
2. God chose to save Jacob, but he chose not to save Esau, even before they were born. For he loves one child, but hates the other
3. God choses or does not chose to save us in the same way. We have no say in the matter, before we were even born our fate was sealed. If God chose you,

through irresistible grace, God will draw you to him, If he did not. In your dead self due to sin, You can not come to God,

14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? Certainly not! 15 For He says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion.”

Paul anticipates there may be people who reject this point of view of God chosing to save one child and reject another, and reject free will choice. so he puts a stop to it right away!

as an example, lets say a person leaves a bank, and decides to pass out money to a group of people. he choses some, but he choses not to give it to others. Now, do the ones he chooses not to give money to have the right to say, dude, what about me? what makes them better than me? the fact is, it is his money, He can chose to give some to whoever He wants, who gives anyone the right to question him? Well in the same way it is with Gods grace, It is his to give,m who are we to question who he gives it to? non of us deserve it. it is Gods chose, and we have no say in the matter!


16 So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy.

There it is. We may think the important thing is We must Chose to believe, but here it is in fine print. It does not depend on our free will. God chooses who to have mercy on. We deserve judgment. That’s it.

we are all in the sea of sin. God has come to rescue people, he can chose to rescue some, and not rescue others. It is his perogative and who are we to argue. Is he obligated to save everyone?? No!

17 For the Scripture says to the Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth.”18 Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens.

So why are you here pharaoh? I am going to abuse you. Make a fool of you. God hardened pharaohs heart. Pharaoh was predestined to go to hell before he was born, the only reason he was born was so God could harden his heart so he would refuse to free his people. Thus allowing God to prove to the world his power and might.

This Proves double predestination. Nothing we can do about it. Even if we though.. Well maybe This God stuff has merit. God would harden our hearts so we do not chose him.

19 You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?” 20 But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, “Why have you made me like this?” 21 Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one

vessel for honor and another for dishonor?

Who can resist God? and who can question his soverignty? God formed you, what gives you the right to tell God what to do? if he choses to make one person for honor, and chose to make another person for dishonor. Who are we to argue? does the created have the right to question the soverignty of God?

Further proof. God molds one for honorable use. Those predestined to be with him. And others for common use. Destined to hell. And used only for his purpose.. We are the creation.. Not the creator.. We have no right to question God. and why would we even argue it? God has the right to chose to do what he wants to do.


22 What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory, 24 even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

Here we are.. Double predestination. Some people are vessels of wrath whom God choses to have patience with while they are on earth. Yet from the beginning they are destined for God’s damnation. This is their destiny. God only calls certain people. We are fortunate to be Gods elect or chosen. We can not even take credit even believing. For it is God who chose us

 

[eternally-gratefull]

what we have just seen is a quck breakdown of the fatalistic view of this chaper. what I would like to do now is give another interpretation of this passage.For this interpretation I will attempt to use the laws which define hermeneutics.

first off, context and historical perspective.

1. Why are we starting at verse 6?

9 I tell the truth in Christ, I am not lying, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Spirit, 2 that I have great sorrow and continual grief in my heart. 3 For I could wish that I myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my countrymen according to the flesh, 4 who are Israelites, to whom pertain the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the service of God, and the promises; 5 of whom are the fathers and from whom, according to the flesh, Christ came, who is over all, the eternally blessed God. Amen. 6 But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For they are not all Israel who are descended from Israel;

context. Isreal

1. they have been given the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the law, the service of God and the promises

2. Christ came through them

Did God make a mistake? At what?

It is important to know these historical facts which was going on at this time.

1. many in Israel at the time, were saying they were in by their heritage, and they were chosen because of the righteousness of their fathers.

2. some saying yes, Grace is awesome, but we have to add these laws to grace, or else it will not work.

3. many people had to have questioned Gods choosing of Israel. They rejected him, and now he was rejecting them. Did God make a mistake in chosing them?

paul is going to spend the next three chapters answering these questions. Here in chapter 9 he speaks of his sovereign choosing and how he did it, and why.

Context is this

Gods choosing of Isreal
God promises given to Abraham.

7 nor are they all children because they are the seed of Abraham; but, “In Isaac your seed shall be called.” 8 That is, those who are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God; but the children of the promise are counted as the seed.

First off. Pauls deals with those who think being natural Children of Abraham get an automatic in. Paul makes it clear. It s through the promised seed that one is given the promise. As God said, in you shall all the nations of the earth be blessed. In this promise, through Christ (the seed of the woman) all mankind are offered the promise of eternal life. National election does not get you an automatic in.

9 For this is the word of promise: “At this time I will come and Sarah shall have a son.” 10 And not only this, but when Rebecca also had conceived by one man, even by our father Isaac 11 (for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls),

here paul is refuting the notion that was common among the jews at this time. That Isreal was chosen because of the righteousness of their forefathers. Paul

makes it clear. The nation was chosen before either of the children had done anything, it was not because of their righteousness, for they had not done righteous or evil yet. it was based on his soverign choice. that his election might stand based on HIM, and not on mankind or any works of mankind.

12 it was said to her, “The older shall serve the younger.”

here paul starts to quote some OT passages. We should not just look at them, and try to interpret what Paul means. but we should do what every person should do. Go back to the OT passage in question to see what it is that paul is saying, for the context of the OT passage must be taken in what Paul is saying, Since he is quoting another author. we must take what the origional author said into context. No man would quote another author. and take him out of context. for this would be grave error.

Spoken to rebecca in 2000 BC Gen 5: 23 - 23 And the Lord said to her: “Two nations are in your womb, Two peoples shall be separated from your body; One people shall be stronger than the other, And the older shall serve the younger.”

As we can see. Using context of what Paul was saying, which any good bible scholar would do, we see God was not speaking of the children, but of the nations in the womb. God told Rebecca, Two nations (Isreal and Edom) are in your womb. One shall serve the other, and be stronger.

Another fact we know by going to the OT is the fact that Jacob the person, never served esau the child. if anything, it was jacob who served esau. In fact he took the birthright from esau, He ran scared from esau, and later he called esau his lord. and declared he was esau's servant.

gen 32: 3 Then Jacob sent messengers before him to Esau his brother in the land of Seir, the country of Edom. 4 And he commanded them, saying, “Speak thus to my lord Esau, ‘Thus your servant Jacob says:

so for those who state he is talking about the kids here. Scripture does not allow this. For neither of the actual kids did what paul claimed they did. It was the nation of jacob (isreal) who ruled over Esau (Edom) and it was edom who served isreal.

13 As it is written, “Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated.”

Spoken to malachi approximately 400 BC, 1600 years after the first OT passage quoted by paul

mal 1 - 2 “I have loved you,” says the Lord.“Yet you say, ‘In what way have You loved us?’ Was not Esau Jacob’s brother?” Says the Lord.“Yet Jacob I have loved; 3 But Esau I have hated,

Again, proves Paul is talking about nations here and not children. Both Jacob and Esau had been long since dead before this was spoken to Malachi, And the context of the passage is that God loves isreal, but did hated Edom.

Now we turn to the greek. The word translated hate here in the hebrew could mean hate, yes, But was also used in a different way. It can also mean love less.

A nt example of Christ using this form, is when he told us to love our parent, our wives and children. But later says if we HAT them, we can not be with God.

God did not literally say hate them, for he would be contradicting himself. he meant love less than him. If we love anyone more than God, we will not be able to experience the kingdom as we are intended to. Paul is stating a fact. In chosing Isreal. god had a special relationship to them. But not because they were good (as already established) but because he chose them as his nation to do all paul stated in the first 5 verses of romans 11. see the major issue here? one group has God hating a child and condemning him to hell before he is even born. One group has God chosing a nation with whom the savior will come from, and still loving them, even though they did not deserve it. yet fulfilling his promise, not only to them, but us.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? Certainly not! 15 For He says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion.” 16 So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy.

Is Isreals rejection God fault? Is God not just in his dealing with Isreal?

1. God is free to show mercy on whoever he choses. God chose to show mercy to Isreal, even though they continued from the start to be in rebellion to him. Not to save them, but to fulfill his soverign plan.

2. Gods communication with moses. again, we need to look at OT passage to see the context of what was said.

Isreal had just sinned a great sin (the golden calf) God said he was done with them. Moses begged God to chow mercy on them. God said he would show mercy on moses, But not the children of Isreal. Moses begged again, but God said i will show mercy to whome i will show mercy and have compassion to who I will have compassion, in other words. I will do what I want.

We know God continued to lead moses. but the children were only led by being baptised into moses, in the cloud and sea. yet even so. God still kept his promise to the fathers, through moses.


17 For the Scripture says to the Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared in

all the earth.” 18 Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens.

If God is speaking of salvation here. The implications are horrific. As many of us have said.why?

They say:

1. Some people like pharoah never are given the chance to be accepted by God, but are created for unitarin destruction (created for hell)

2. Some people may try to respond to Gods message, but he will harden their heart so they will go to hell anyway which is not what scripture says. In 2 peter

3:9, God tells us he is not willing that ANY should perish, but that all should come to repentnance. In 1 tim 2: 4 God wants everyone to understand his

truth, so they will be saved.

what is Paul, via moses, really saying here?

1. Pharoah never believed God, he though he was God himself
2. Pharoah hardened his own heart many times. It was not always the lord whihc hardened his heart.

Gen 8: 15 Pharaoh hardened his own heart. 8: 18, His heart grew hard (by itself) 8: 32. he hardened his own heart, 9:7, his heart became heard (by itself) 9:34, he hardened his own heart.

3. The word harden means to strengthen or to fortify. It means something we believe, A thought or an idea, is strengthened or fortified. the more we believe

it, the harder it is to change our belief. In the terms of believing what is not true. or a lie. the more we reject the lie, even though the truth is shown to us, the easier it is to reject. and the more proof is needed to change us. This is what it means by hardening. God did not force pharaoh to do what he did, He strengthened pharaohs thoughts so pharoah would do what HE ALREADY WANTED TO DO. A HUGE DIFFERENCE.

God never threatened Pharaoh to hell. in fact the terms heaven or hell never came up in the pssage, so we can not use this as context in what paul said.

19 You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?” 20 But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, “Why have you made me like this?” 21 Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one

vessel for honor and another for dishonor? 22 What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory,

remember context. The chosing of the nation of Isreal.

what did God say concerning them:

jer18: 3 Then I went down to the potter’s house, and there he was, making something at the wheel. 4 And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the

hand of the potter; so he made it again into another vessel, as it seemed good to the potter to make. 5 Then the word of the Lord came to me, saying: 6 “O house of Israel, can I not do with you as this potter?” says the Lord. “Look, as the clay is in the potter’s hand, so are you in My hand, O house of Israel! 7 The instant I speak concerning a nation and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, to pull down, and to destroy it, 8 if that nation against whom I have spoken turns from its evil, I will relent of the disaster that I thought to bring upon it. 9 And the instant I speak concerning a nation and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it, 10 if it does evil in My sight so that it does not obey My voice, then I will relent concerning the good with which I said I would benefit it.

1. The clay marred itself. God did not form it bad, it became bad in his hands.
2. God says he can chose to destroy th emold. But if they relent from their sin, he will relent from his destruction. He can bless a mold. but if they turn to sin, he can relent from his blessings. And then he continues.
3. Being merciful to the nation of isreal, even iun sin, has proven the love of God. he is just as merciful with us. or he would have destroyed us all.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

11 “Now therefore, speak to the men of Judah and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem, saying, ‘Thus says the Lord: “Behold, I am fashioning a disaster and devising a plan against you. Return now every one from his evil way, and make your ways and your doings good.”

God is warning Isreal to relent concerning their sin, or he will destroy them. which he does. But paul makes it clear. God still kept his promise to them,

thus the word of God did not fail. as he says:

24 even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles? 25 As He says also in Hosea: “I will call them My people, who were not My people, And her beloved, who was not beloved.” 26 “And it shall come to pass in the place where it was said to them, ‘You are not My people,’ There they shall be called sons of the living God.”

Here God promises he will call gentiles. and call them his people. Something the jews in Christs time, and even at the time in Pauls righting said was not true.

27 Isaiah also cries out concerning Israel: “Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, The remnant will be saved. 28 For He will finish the work and cut it short in righteousness, Because the Lord will make a short work upon the earth.” 29 And as Isaiah said before: “Unless the Lord of Sabbath had left us a seed, We would have become like Sodom, And we would have been made like Gomorrah.”

Even in Isreals rebellion. God promised to keep the seed. through a remnant. Notice here Isreal should have been destroyed because of her rebelion. But God kept them alive through a remnant. His promise did not fail, it still stands.

30 What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness of faith; 31 but Israel, pursuing the law of righteousness, has not attained to the law of righteousness. 32 Why? Because they did not seek it by faith, but as it were, by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumbling stone. 33 As it is written: “Behold, I lay in Zion a stumbling stone and rock of offense, And whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.”

isreal failed NOT BECAUSE GOD FORCED THEM. but because of their free will decision to reject Christ. God gave them the law to help them find their messiah, But since they did not believe, the law become a stumbling block which caused them to fall because of their free will decision to try to get right with God by the law, and not by faith in Christ. They Chose, God did not force. Free will is intact.

 

[tek]

Islam. Anwar Sedaat would not wear a bullet proof vest, he stated if Allah says it is my time to die, I am going to die whether I wear this or not. My destiny has been predetermined. (predestination) Suicide bombers believe this also. if th ebomb goes off, it was Allah's will.

lol, that's about Calvinists

 

[Indubitably]

I know you intended this to be a study and not an argument and I respect that. I dislike the controversy over calvanism vs. arminianism. After years of hearing and seeing all the arguments of the "greatest theological minds", I have come to the conclusion that much of the difference is in semantics. Yes there are major differences, but if I expound a major doctrine such as predestination, followers should not name everything I believe after me. This is the problem. Neither of these men expected nor intended, that their beliefs in total, would become a church doctrine. Obviously you can agree with me about some things and differ about others.

I simply "preach Jesus and Him crucified". One of my favorite scriptures: John 15:16 - You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you to go and bear fruit - fruit that will last. Then the Father will give you whatever you ask in my name. This settles the matter for me!

 

[tek]

I simply "preach Jesus and Him crucified". One of my favorite scriptures: John 15:16 - You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you to go and bear fruit - fruit that will last. Then the Father will give you whatever you ask in my name. This settles the matter for me!

It is always God who chooses first and He chose the whole world to be saved

John 3:16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I know you intended this to be a study and not an argument and I respect that. I dislike the controversy over calvanism vs. arminianism. After years of hearing and seeing all the arguments of the "greatest theological minds", I have come to the conclusion that much of the difference is in semantics. Yes there are major differences, but if I expound a major doctrine such as predestination, followers should not name everything I believe after me. This is the problem. Neither of these men expected nor intended, that their beliefs in total, would become a church doctrine. Obviously you can agree with me about some things and differ about others.

I simply "preach Jesus and Him crucified". One of my favorite scriptures: John 15:16 - You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you to go and bear fruit - fruit that will last. Then the Father will give you whatever you ask in my name. This settles the matter for me!

one has to remember, Jesus was talking to his disciples there

1. he chose 12 - 1 never believed or was saved
2. many others believed. yet he did not send them out.

One must always think of context when looking at things. and not just interpret it to support what we believe.

Again, as I showed above.

One view has God condemning a fetus to hell. another has him choosing one nation over another. Which favors more highly on God being the loving God he claims to be? and which more accurately fits the context of what paul was talking about. this is why I opened this thread to discuss this.

 

[Jon4TheCross]

Another thing to remember about free will, is that we have motivated free will, and we have no other form of free will. We are motivated, period. God is a spirit motivator, motivated spirit, and has a motivated body. We have motivated free will, and God gets all the glory that way. We do have free will that is motivated though, but I could agree that unmotivated free will does not exist.

God definitely would not tell us to repent if He didn't give us the way to do it. We are without excuse no doubt.

1Co 10:12 Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.
1Co 10:13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.
1Co 10:14 Wherefore, my dearly beloved, flee from idolatry.

 

[RoBoT-7x153-]

It is always God who chooses first and He chose the whole world to be saved

John 3:16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

Just for a note, this isn't saying that HE loves everybody. So is an adverb; and adverbs tell how, when, where, and sometimes why. They modify verbs, adjectives, and other adverbs. So modifies the verb loved (agapao). This is stating that God "in this fashion" loved the world, which is the "kosmon" or cosmos, which is HIS orderly arrangement. This is stating that God loved HIS wife, the church. God doesn't love everybody, and HIS WORD does not say that. Romans 9: 10-13; And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac; (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth. It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger. As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated. HE loved Jacob, who was renamed to Israel. Genesis 32: 28; And he said, Thy name shall be called no more Jacob, but Israel: for as a prince hast thou power with God and with men, and hast prevailed. People need to know, HE loves HIS wife, the church, and no other.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Just for a note, this isn't saying that HE loves everybody. So is an adverb; and adverbs tell how, when, where, and sometimes why. They modify verbs, adjectives, and other adverbs. So modifies the verb loved (agapao). This is stating that God "in this fashion" loved the world, which is the "kosmon" or cosmos, which is HIS orderly arrangement. This is stating that God loved HIS wife, the church. God doesn't love everybody, and HIS WORD does not say that. Romans 9: 10-13; And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac; (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth. It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger. As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated. HE loved Jacob, who was renamed to Israel. Genesis 32: 28; And he said, Thy name shall be called no more Jacob, but Israel: for as a prince hast thou power with God and with men, and hast prevailed. People need to know, HE loves HIS wife, the church, and no other.

The cosmos is Gods orderly arrangement? where do you get this? The cosmos, when used in scripture is the world as a whole. God was sent to restore the world to him. which had been lost because of sin. The word houtos (so) means "in the way" in other words, John said, In this way God loved the world. He sent his son to die. That whoever believes. Which is another thing. He did not say he loved his elect. His chosen. or his predestined. He said he loved the world. And out of this world. he said, whoever believed has eternal life.

as for romans 9. I find it amazing you would talk about what he said. and not what I said about romans 9, why is this?

Did Paul say God hated esau? or or Edom (the nation)? this is what we are supposed to be discussing here

As I showed. Paul quoted two ot passages which are 1600 years apart. In one God told rebecca two nations were in her womb, in another God said he loved Isreal (jacob) but hated esau (edom)

then what about the word hate itself? Is it not used alot in Hebrew to mean "love less"? Do you HATE your parents? If Not your disobeying God because he said you had to. Unless you interpret Hate to mean "love less" or not love as much, as it is used alot in the hebrew.

 

[tek]

Just for a note, this isn't saying that HE loves everybody

really?
ROMANS 5:6-8 NKJ
6 For when we were still without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.
7 For scarcely for a righteous man will one die; yet perhaps for a good man someone would even dare to die.
8 But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.
"sinners" and "ungodly" means non-believers. Jesus died for non-believers. That means God loves non-believers

 

[tek]

God doesn't love everybody.

this is one of the most serious theological error that can ever be

1 john 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for our's only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

 

[Cobus]

What about the two types of babies that are born into the world, CAN I CHOOSE TO HAVE BELIEVING PARENTS? What baby can choose it's parents?
1Co_7:14 For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband: else were your children unclean; but now are they holy.

Does the one baby have a better chance than the other? And who tells God to save him? Can I tell God He has to save me?
Look what Jeus says.... NOBODY can come to the FATHER except through HIM. So clearly only ONE WAY TO GOD. But is it my choice to GO TO JESUS? NO!!!! NEVER!!!! Jesus says NO ONE COMES TO HIM IF THE FATHER DOES NOT DRAW HIM.

And Jesus did not even choose the disciples, GOD GAVE THEM TO HIM...

Two things to concider here, VERY important things, And eternally grateful, should especially look at this..... Jesus says this about the ONES THE FATHER GAVE HIM.... John 17.... Father, I pray for them, I PRAY NOT FOR THE WORLD..... Why would Jesus not pray for the World? (Joh 17:9)...
But Jesus does pray for OTHER PEOPLE..... I pray also for those that shall believe ON ME THROUGH THEIR WORD: That they ALL MAY BE ONE!....

Now! Who are these that will believe ON JESUS? If the Father does not draw me to Jesus, will I EVER believe on Him? And if I am not drawn to Jesus, I am of the World! And Jesus NEVER prayed for me. No person EVER chose to be saved, God sent the Holy Spirit to convince the WORLD of sin. Some will hate the sin when the Holy Spirit shows them, and some would not! There is the seperation. And what is the difference between the two? GOD! God's love for righteousness in one person will CHANGE THAT PERSON, and God's LACK F LOVE FOR RIGHTEOUSNESS, will keep the other in sin. NOTHING good comes from man, even the repenting will from sin comes from GOD!

There are only TWO wills on earth, God's and Satan's. There are only two types of people in this world, those in God's will and those in satan's will. We are either walking in God's will here on earth or in satan's. And in the will of whom you walk, you are the slave (servant) of!

If you are in God's will, GO TO YOUR KNEES AND THANK HIM, if you are not, ASK GOD FOR MERCY! That genuine ask is ALSO FROM HIM, AND HE WILL HAVE MERCY!

This is what I find so amazing about God.... HE LOVED ME WHEN I HATED HIS WAYS! He does not want ONE soul to get lost, so I would say, EVERY PERSON THAT CALLS TO GOD, WAS CALLED BY GOD.... Many are called few are chosen. Even God called more than HE CHOSE? I am called, am I chosen, I DO NOT KNOW! BUT I HAVE THIS HOPE THAT I MIGHT BE CALED A CHILD OF GOD... 1 Joh 3: 3 That is why I am busy with this...... 1 John 3:3.

 

[Cobus]

Tek the Bible also says this... John14:22... If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.
And also God says HE NEVER KNEW THE SINNERS!!!! HE NEVER HEAR THE SINNERS.... Mat 7:23 and John 9:31. And God says those that are being sanctified, and He that sanctifies them are ALL OF ONE! I think the sinners God refers here too, are the ones that will die in sin. Jesus did come for sinners....TO REPENT! Some will, some will not (lots more will not). Why? They simply love sin more than God! Why? ASK GOD!

 

[tek]

What about the two types of babies that are born into the world, CAN I CHOOSE TO HAVE BELIEVING PARENTS?

We are not talking about Omnipotence and Omniscience. You are confusing Omnipotence and Omniscience with Free Will.

Free Will does not mean that you choose whether to be born in a wealthy family or poor family, whether to be rich or poor, whether to be born black or white, whether to be born in USA or Brazil

ROMANS 5: 8 But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.

"sinners" and "ungodly" means non-believers. Jesus died for non-believers. That means God loves non-believers. To think differently is one of the most serious theological error that can ever be

 

[eternally-gratefull]

What about the two types of babies that are born into the world, CAN I CHOOSE TO HAVE BELIEVING PARENTS? What baby can choose it's parents?

what does this have to do with free will? I think your mixing Gods soverign choice of placing someone somewhere, with Our choice to be able to understand our need, and seek help.

1Co_7:14 For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband: else were your children unclean; but now are they holy.

Does the one baby have a better chance than the other?

you know an odd statistic? Most babies who grow up wiht believing parents reject God. They want nothing to do with him. Most Christians I knw did not have believing parents. So it does not matter who your parents are. What matters is how you respond to Gods conviction. and his truth

And who tells God to save him? Can I tell God He has to save me?

who said anything about telling God anything? why are you trying to twist what people believe and trying to make them look bad? no one states they tell god anything. WE ASK HIM TO SAVE US, based on HIS WORD AND HIS PROMISE.

Look what Jeus says.... NOBODY can come to the FATHER except through HIM. So clearly only ONE WAY TO GOD. But is it my choice to GO TO JESUS? NO!!!! NEVER!!!! Jesus says NO ONE COMES TO HIM IF THE FATHER DOES NOT DRAW HIM.

True. But does not God know who will respond and who will not? and does he not go after them he knows will respond? Your taking away from Gods omniscient glory, by saying he chooses based on some erroneous value, just because. God knows everything, including who will respond, and who will not.

And Jesus did not even choose the disciples, GOD GAVE THEM TO HIM...

John 6:70
Jesus answered them, “Did I not choose you, the twelve, and one of you is a devil?”

jesus chose them, and they all did not even get saved

Two things to concider here, VERY important things, And eternally grateful, should especially look at this..... Jesus says this about the ONES THE FATHER GAVE HIM.... John 17.... Father, I pray for them, I PRAY NOT FOR THE WORLD..... Why would Jesus not pray for the World? (Joh 17:9)...

But Jesus does pray for OTHER PEOPLE..... I pray also for those that shall believe ON ME THROUGH THEIR WORD: That they ALL MAY BE ONE!....

why would he pray for the world. he knows many of the world will by their free will reject him. he is praying for those he is going to send out into the world. including us. you can;t use this to try to say jesus did not die for the world. this is not reality.

Now! Who are these that will believe ON JESUS? If the Father does not draw me to Jesus, will I EVER believe on Him? And if I am not drawn to Jesus, I am of the World!

so your saying God is incapable of knowing who will recieve his word and who is not? and through this omniscient knowledge, goes after the ones he KNOWS will come?

you not making sense. and ignoring the omniscience of God.

And Jesus NEVER prayed for me. No person EVER chose to be saved, God sent the Holy Spirit to convince the WORLD of sin. Some will hate the sin when the Holy Spirit shows them, and some would not!

Some will hate and some will not. yes, why? because they have free will to chose. By your own admission. But this is not even what the gospel says. The gospel says some will admit they need help and call out to God, and some will not. It has nothing to do with hating sin, if we hated it, we would not do it. and we can't stop doing it until we are born again and understand why sin is so bad.

There is the seperation. And what is the difference between the two? GOD! God's love for righteousness in one person will CHANGE THAT PERSON, and God's LACK F LOVE FOR RIGHTEOUSNESS, will keep the other in sin. NOTHING good comes from man, even the repenting will from sin comes from GOD!

There are only TWO wills on earth, God's and Satan's. There are only two types of people in this world, those in God's will and those in satan's will. We are either walking in God's will here on earth or in satan's. And in the will of whom you walk, you are the slave (servant) of!

If you are in God's will, GO TO YOUR KNEES AND THANK HIM, if you are not, ASK GOD FOR MERCY! That genuine ask is ALSO FROM HIM, AND HE WILL HAVE MERCY!

Yes it is from him. why? he gave us the ability to come to him and be saved, because he did the work. if he did not do the work of redemption, and send his spirit to convince us we need him, we would have nothing to ask for, to come to, or to seek out. more importanlty, we would have nothing to have faith in. But it is still gods work. thats why he gets the credit. But he is not going to force it on you. He wants YOU TO CHOSE.

ps. The natural man can not have a love for righteousness. It is in his flesh, and he hates it. He must admit he is unrighteous, and be saved before he can change. you have a man getting himself good. then comming to God. this is impossible. and not of God. man is powerless to do this. They have to be born of the spirit and made new before they can love righteousness.

This is what I find so amazing about God.... HE LOVED ME WHEN I HATED HIS WAYS! He does not want ONE soul to get lost, so I would say, EVERY PERSON THAT CALLS TO GOD, WAS CALLED BY GOD.... Many are called few are chosen. Even God called more than HE CHOSE? I am called, am I chosen, I DO NOT KNOW! BUT I HAVE THIS HOPE THAT I MIGHT BE CALED A CHILD OF GOD... 1 Joh 3: 3 That is why I am busy with this...... 1 John 3:3.

I have this hope to. And this hope will never fade away, because I placed my free choice trust in the work of Christ, and KNOW he will keep his promise.

 

[PatientSpirit]

Is this what you are teaching? Pharaoh destined to heil with no salvation by a preordained decision??

WOW!!

You would cast Esau away when even his own brother saw the face of God in him?

These things cannot be!

 

[PatientSpirit]

And about the topic of free will, there is no such thing! If you believe that pharaoh's fate is a predetermined hell, is he free to choose not to go? We are slaves and servants here to either righteousness or of sin.