Universe

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tek

Banned
Sep 25, 2012
283
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#1
There is an unfathomable “fine tuning” of our Universe.


Just to give you an example:


Current interpretations of astronomical observations indicate that the age of the universe is around 14 billion years, so the number of seconds in the entire history of the universe is around 10^17(that’s 1 followed by seventeen zeroes: 100,000,000,000,000,000)


The number of subatomic particles in the entire known universe is said to be around 10^80.


With those numbers in mind, consider the following example of fine-tuning. The so-called weak force, one of the 4 fundamental forces of nature, which operates inside the nucleus of an atom, is so finely tuned that an alteration in its value by even 1 part out of 10^100 would have prevented a life permitting universe.


Similarly a change in the value of the so-called cosmological constant, which drives the acceleration of the universe’s expansion, by as little as 1 part in 10^120 would have rendered the universe life-prohibiting


The degree of fine-tuning is difficult to imagine. Dr. Hugh Ross gives an example of what it means to be fine-tuned by 10^37. He says: “….One part in 10^37 is such an incredibly sensitive balance that it is hard to visualize. The following analogy might help: Cover the entire North American continent in dimes all the way up to the moon, a height of about 239,000 miles (In comparison, the money to pay for the U.S. federal government debt would cover one square mile less than two feet deep with dimes). Next, pile dimes from here to the moon on a billion other continents the same size as North America. Paint one dime red and mix it into the billions of piles of dimes. Blindfold a friend and ask him to pick out one dime. The odds that he will pick the red dime are one in 10^37…”


That was an example of 10^37.Imagine now numbers 10^80 or even 10^120.


Let me quote few other scientists on this:


Arno Penzias (Nobel prize in physics): "Astronomy leads us to a unique event, a universe which was created out of nothing, one with the very delicate balance needed to provide exactly the conditions required to permit life, and one which has an underlying (one might say 'supernatural') plan."


George Ellis (British astrophysicist): "Amazing fine tuning occurs in the laws that make this [complexity] possible. Realization of the complexity of what is accomplished makes it very difficult not to use the word 'miraculous' without taking a stand as to the ontological status of the word."


Alan Sandage (winner of the Crawford prize in astronomy): "I find it quite improbable that such order came out of chaos. There has to be some organizing principle. God to me is a mystery but is the explanation for the miracle of existence, why there is something instead of nothing."


Alexander Polyakov (Soviet mathematician): "We know that nature is described by the best of all possible mathematics because God created it."


John O'Keefe (astronomer at NASA): "We are, by astronomical standards, a pampered, cosseted, cherished group of creatures.. .. If the Universe had not been made with the most exacting precision we could never have come into existence. It is my view that these circumstances indicate the universe was created for man to live in."


George Greenstein (astronomer): "As we survey all the evidence, the thought insistently arises that some supernatural agency - or, rather, Agency - must be involved. Is it possible that suddenly, without intending to, we have stumbled upon scientific proof of the existence of a Supreme Being? Was it God who stepped in and so providentially crafted the cosmos for our benefit?"


Fred Hoyle (British astrophysicist): "A common sense interpretation of the facts suggests that a super-intellect has monkeyed with physics, as well as with chemistry and biology, and that there are no blind forces worth speaking about in nature. The numbers one calculates from the facts seem to me so overwhelming as to put this conclusion almost beyond question."


Arthur Eddington (astrophysicist): "The idea of a universal mind or Logos would be, I think, a fairly plausible inference from the present state of scientific theory."


Paul Davies (British astrophysicist): "There is for me powerful evidence that there is something going on behind it all....It seems as though somebody has fine-tuned nature’s numbers to make the Universe....The impression of design is overwhelming…..The laws [of physics] ... seem to be the product of exceedingly ingenious design... The universe must have a purpose".


Ed Harrison (cosmologist): "Here is the cosmological proof of the existence of God – the design argument of Paley – updated and refurbished. The fine tuning of the universe provides prima facie evidence of deistic design. Take your choice: blind chance that requires multitudes of universes or design that requires only one.... Many scientists, when they admit their views, incline toward the teleological or design argument."


Tony Rothman (physicist): "When confronted with the order and beauty of the universe and the strange coincidences of nature, it's very tempting to take the leap of faith from science into religion. I am sure many physicists want to. I only wish they would admit it."


Vera Kistiakowsky (MIT physicist): "The exquisite order displayed by our scientific understanding of the physical world calls for the divine."


Roger Penrose (mathematician and author): "I would say the universe has a purpose. It's not there just somehow by chance."


Frank Tipler (Professor of Mathematical Physics): "When I began my career as a cosmologist some twenty years ago, I was a convinced atheist. I never in my wildest dreams imagined that one day I would be writing a book purporting to show that the central claims of Judeo-Christian theology are in fact true, that these claims are straightforward deductions of the laws of physics as we now understand them. I have been forced into these conclusions by the inexorable logic of my own special branch of physics."


Arthur L. Schawlow (Professor of Physics at Stanford University, 1981 Nobel Prize in physics): "It seems to me that when confronted with the marvels of life and the universe, one must ask why and not just how. The only possible answers are religious. . . . I find a need for God in the universe and in my own life."


Carl Woese (microbiologist from the University of Illinois) "Life in Universe - rare or unique? I walk both sides of that street. One day I can say that given the 100 billion stars in our galaxy and the 100 billion or more galaxies, there have to be some planets that formed and evolved in ways very, very like the Earth has, and so would contain microbial life at least. There are other days when I say that the anthropic principal, which makes this universe a special one out of an unaccountably large number of universes, may not apply only to that aspect of nature we define in the realm of physics, but may extend to chemistry and biology. In that case life on Earth could be entirely unique."


Antony Flew (Professor of Philosophy) "It now seems to me that the findings of more than fifty years of DNAresearch have provided materials for a new and enormously powerful argument to design."


Robert Jastrow (self-proclaimed agnostic): "For the scientist who has lived by his faith in the power of reason, the story ends like a bad dream. He has scaled the mountains of ignorance; he is about to conquer the highest peak; as he pulls himself over the final rock, he is greeted by a band of theologians who have been sitting there for centuries."


With this in mind here is an astonishing interview with a Neuroscientist Eben Alexander M.D.…who visited the other side


http://www.btci.org/bioethics/2012/videos2012/vid3.html
 
Nov 29, 2012
424
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#2
I stopped reading after '14 billion years...'
 
M

MidniteWelder

Guest
#6
(Robert Jastrow (self-proclaimed agnostic): "For the scientist who has lived by his faith in the power of reason, the story ends like a bad dream. He has scaled the mountains of ignorance; he is about to conquer the highest peak; as he pulls himself over the final rock, he is greeted by a band of theologians who have been sitting there for centuries." )

yep, I like that one :D
 

tek

Banned
Sep 25, 2012
283
2
0
#8
I stopped reading after '14 billion years...'
that's wat scientists currently believe.
i am not saying they are right.
With an attitude like yours how can you convince anyone that God exist?
With an answer like yours they'll just tell you that you are a religious fanatic who got brainwashed in a church
 
Nov 29, 2012
424
5
0
#9
that's wat scientists currently believe.
i am not saying they are right.
With an attitude like yours how can you convince anyone that God exist?
With an answer like yours they'll just tell you that you are a religious fanatic who got brainwashed in a church
I'm sure God doesn't need His existence to be proven to be God. HE IS GOD and we should believe in Him, nothing more. And I don't care if they call me a religious fanatic, i'm used to it. Maybe YOU are the one that was brainwashed, by science.

John 8:32
Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.

 

tek

Banned
Sep 25, 2012
283
2
0
#11
I'm sure God doesn't need His existence to be proven to be God. HE IS GOD and we should believe in Him, nothing more.

get to a High School then talk to me again

"A christian minister at Stanford University recently told me that 40 percent of Christian high school students in church youth groups will quit church involvement altogether after graduation" William Lane Craig
 
Dec 6, 2012
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#12
I totally whole-heartdely believe this.

It might be with noting the idea of 'eternity', 'forever', 'periods of time' and 'days' in original scripture are not what people think.

For instance, the greek word 'Aeon', meaning 'a long period of time with a beginning and end', is used in the Bible.

Creation coincides with scientific fact.
 
Nov 29, 2012
424
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#14
get to a High School then talk to me again

"A christian minister at Stanford University recently told me that 40 percent of Christian high school students in church youth groups will quit church involvement altogether after graduation" William Lane Craig

Funny, you studied so much yet you know not the Truth?

Deut. 30: 11-16

11 Now what I am commanding you today is not too difficult for you or beyond your reach. 12 It is not up in heaven, so that you have to ask, “Who will ascend into heaven to get it and proclaim it to us so we may obey it?” 13 Nor is it beyond the sea, so that you have to ask, “Who will cross the sea to get it and proclaim it to us so we may obey it?” 14 No, the word is very near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart so you may obey it.
15 See, I set before you today life and prosperity, death and destruction. 16 For I command you today to love the Lord your God, to walk in obedience to him, and to keep his commands, decrees and laws; then you will live and increase, and the Lord your God will bless you in the land you are entering to possess.

Good to hear that 60 % won't quit church involvement, eventhough the university did enough to cloud their brain with scientific humbug...
 
Dec 6, 2012
213
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#15
Funny, you studied so much yet you know not the Truth?

Deut. 30: 11-16

11 Now what I am commanding you today is not too difficult for you or beyond your reach. 12 It is not up in heaven, so that you have to ask, “Who will ascend into heaven to get it and proclaim it to us so we may obey it?” 13 Nor is it beyond the sea, so that you have to ask, “Who will cross the sea to get it and proclaim it to us so we may obey it?” 14 No, the word is very near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart so you may obey it.
15 See, I set before you today life and prosperity, death and destruction. 16 For I command you today to love the Lord your God, to walk in obedience to him, and to keep his commands, decrees and laws; then you will live and increase, and the Lord your God will bless you in the land you are entering to possess.

Good to hear that 60 % won't quit church involvement, eventhough the university did enough to cloud their brain with scientific humbug...
Just thought I'd point those out.

Being a servant of God has nothing to do with going to a physical church, anyway.

it is in our hearts.
 

seaco711

Senior Member
Dec 30, 2009
104
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#16
OP - interesting post. The fine-tuned universe theory is pretty widely disputed though, because although the universe is indeed fine-tuned for life as we know it, who is to say that minor adjustments in the basic mathematical principles that are held constant throughout the universe wouldm't just result in a different sort of life? Who is to say that we inhabit the only universe, when other universes (millions in fact) may exist in which conditions for life are not present, and we could have just gotten lucky?

What we do know, with relative certainty, is that the observable universe is approximately 14 billion years old, and life evolved through a very amazing and extraordinary sequence of events over that period of time. If you disagree with that, you just need to go learn science.
 
Dec 6, 2012
213
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#18
OP - interesting post. The fine-tuned universe theory is pretty widely disputed though, because although the universe is indeed fine-tuned for life as we know it, who is to say that minor adjustments in the basic mathematical principles that are held constant throughout the universe wouldm't just result in a different sort of life? Who is to say that we inhabit the only universe, when other universes (millions in fact) may exist in which conditions for life are not present, and we could have just gotten lucky?

What we do know, with relative certainty, is that the observable universe is approximately 14 billion years old, and life evolved through a very amazing and extraordinary sequence of events over that period of time. If you disagree with that, you just need to go learn science.
The simple state of matter would suggest that any other form of atom (if that's even possible) other than the one we have would create a totally chaotic existence.

Perhaps life might transcend the physical in such a state. I mean, we after all are basically particles and electrical charge.
 

seaco711

Senior Member
Dec 30, 2009
104
0
0
#19
The simple state of matter would suggest that any other form of atom (if that's even possible) other than the one we have would create a totally chaotic existence.

Perhaps life might transcend the physical in such a state. I mean, we after all are basically particles and electrical charge.
Again, matter as we know it would most likely not exist with another form of atom. But a different form of atom could totally create a form of matter (and then life) that we haven't even fathomed. There's no denying that the tolerances in our universe are extremely (incredibly) low, but it just doesn't mean there is only one type of existence.
 

tek

Banned
Sep 25, 2012
283
2
0
#20
OP - interesting post. The fine-tuned universe theory is pretty widely disputed though, because although the universe is indeed fine-tuned for life as we know it, who is to say that minor adjustments in the basic mathematical principles that are held constant throughout the universe wouldm't just result in a different sort of life?

When scientists say a universe is life-permitting, they are not talking about just present forms of life. By “life” scientists just mean the property of organisms to take the food, extract energy from it, grow, adapt to their environment, and reproduce. Anything that can fulfil those functions counts as life, whatever form it might take. And in order for life, so defined, to exist, the constants and quantities of the universe have to be unbelievably fine-tuned. In the absence of fine-tuning, not even matter, not even chemistry would exist, much less planets where life might evolve
Who is to say that we inhabit the only universe, when other universes (millions in fact) may exist in which conditions for life are not present, and we could have just gotten lucky?
The fundamental problem here is that the chances that the universe that exists sould happen to be life-permitting are so remote that this alternative becomes unreasonable.

Let me give you an example

Imagine a lottery in which billions and billions of white ping-pong balls were mixed together with just one black ping-pong ball, and you were told that one ball will be randomly selected out of the horde. If it’s black, you’ll be allowed to live, if it’s white, you’ll be shot. Imagine also that in order for you to live, the black ball had to be picked five times in a row. If the odds against getting the black ball even once are great enough, then getting it five times rather than once won’t affect the probabilities significantly. But if you got the black ball five times in a raw, everyone would recognize that it didn’t happen by chance