Lazarus and the prosperity gospel

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C

Cup-of-Ruin

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#21
Then again, sometimes I think the spiritual truth in Mark 10:30 is somewhat spiritually literal...

I remember a profound Christian friend I had once that told me near the time I turned to the Lord that 'when you are a Christian none of your stuff belongs to you but it belongs to every Christian.' Meaning like every Christian's home is your home if you are a Christian, and their lands et cetera are yours as well...I know thats radical but I see that as being true even as it says it was in Acts...

Thaddeus and others...You have to ask yourself though since you are bringing up this Old Testament stuff...how does this apply to Jeremiah and the other faithful prophets when Israel was profane in adultry??? Did God prosper them wordly?

In the New Testament, we see the same those who follow God are not often if ever wordly rich...

Okay another rant...and this one against that arch enemy my past...Okay, here in America many of us go to colleges were the wealthy squander their time, money, and everything else on 'prodigal son-like living' and I was like this...and I have got to ask myself the honest question now, where was the empathy and compassion for those like in Africa and other places that were starving for bread while I was squandering my blessings away...but its the same with other vanities when you have riches, what are you really seeking when you buy all this chains you think you possess? Meanwhile, I know I was probably walking over and by thousands of Lazarus's to feed my emptiness...and its the same with you if you seek riches and indulge yourself in wealth, what Lazarus are you walking by in order to buy the biggest, most expensive flat screen tv? while your neighbor outside is starving, you walk on this other side of the road..you false neighbor...and non-samaritan...

Done ranting again

God bless
tony
Greetings,

The Lazarus and the Rich Man Parable is complex and difficult message, Jesus often talked in Parables that can only be deciphered by the Holy Spirit which He sends to testify the truth. From what I have read of this thread, you are not looking deep enough into the message, and misunderstanding is something God sometimes intends, there is nothing wrong with what you are saying but God leads His sheep in the truth, one step at a time, some steps are naturally more difficult and bigger then others.

On the surface of it, there is nothing wrong with a kind of elementry, basic generalized interpretation, I mean if you just literally imagine a poor hungary Lazarus and fat greedy rich man, and it's all just a moralistic type tale about compassion and sharing and mercy for your fellow man, and that is all fine and good, that's a good message. If you have alot and someone has nothing why not share some of yours; that's a good message, it's also naive, to think that the Lord is that simplistic, as the real message, the truth behind the parable is much deeper much more profound, and it is a lesson within a lesson.

Now it took me a month of study to work through the meaning of the Lazarus and Rich Man parable, and the spirit did most of the work, I just ask alot of questions, so the questions you might want to ask are; Jesus never says anything unless it is vital and relevant, it's God talking so if He says something there must be alot of meaning behind it, so what does He mean when He says - "There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day" what does that mean? why is clothed in purple, what does he do? why does he eat so much everyday? Why is the beggers name Lazarus? Why is the Rich man not given a name? Why is Lazarus at the gate full of sores and why are their dogs licking his wounds?

We must ask all these questions, and it goes on, all the way until we are asking why does the Rich Man have five brethren? Why five? Is there something significant here why the Lord says "five" is the Lord hinting at who the Rich Man actually is? does He want us to know, does it matter? I suppose it does matter becuase otherwise He would not of said it! Now these five brethren had Moses and the prophets but they did not hear them, another clue? And what has all this got to do with desiring water and being in the bosom of Abraham? Surely we all cannot literally fit on Abraham's bosom and I am sure that father Abraham would not want to spend eternity with old begger Lazarus lying ontop of his chest, whats the 'great gulf'?

You know that believers have spent much longer than I contemplating all this, just reading and studying this one parable, praying, inquiring of God...It amazes me that I know people that have spent years trying to answer one parable of the Lord, and I see so many christians these days and they all know instantly what the Lord is saying as if His words are those of a naive child, it's all so easy, like reading a fairy tale with a good moral or two and a nice happy ending - rich man - bad, poor man - good, and that's it, thanks Jesus, next, move on, that was easy...

"Father Abraham, have mery on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue."

There is nothing simple about what the Lord is saying, you know one of the keys I used to unlocking the hidden message of this parable was Acts 2:29, if one cannot understand Acts 2:29 then you will be unable to decipher the parable.
 

phil36

Senior Member
Feb 12, 2009
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#22
Cup of Rain, the thing with parables is that we have to watch we do not read into them that which is not there. I think you are reading 'into' the text instead of reading 'out'. All you have done in your post is, fired out a lot of your thoughts and you have not explained or backed up anyting to what you seem to be trying to say.

Remember this parable is amongst other parables talking about money/stewardship. I dont think I said this earlier but I am not against wealth, if you have it good, use it for the Kingdom, but, this prosperity gospel is a disgrace, Come to Jesus He will make you wealthy!!

Soli Deo Gloria

Phil
 
C

carpetmanswife

Guest
#23
It really annoys me to watch tv and see a 'minister' say" send me x amount of dollars and God will save your child, or heal your disease, or rain money on you. " I do believe God would love nothing more than to bless all of His children with wealth BUT not all of us are capable of handling it wisely and He knows that. This is my prayer as should it be off of us...Remove far from me vanity and lies: give me neither poverty nor riches; feed me with food convient for me; Lest I be full and deny thee, and say "Who is the Lord"? or lest I be poor and steal and take the name of my God in vain. Proverbs 30:8&9 Amen.
 

phil36

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Feb 12, 2009
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#24
It really annoys me to watch tv and see a 'minister' say" send me x amount of dollars and God will save your child, or heal your disease, or rain money on you. " I do believe God would love nothing more than to bless all of His children with wealth BUT not all of us are capable of handling it wisely and He knows that. This is my prayer as should it be off of us...Remove far from me vanity and lies: give me neither poverty nor riches; feed me with food convient for me; Lest I be full and deny thee, and say "Who is the Lord"? or lest I be poor and steal and take the name of my God in vain. Proverbs 30:8&9 Amen.


I totally agree, Amen!
 
C

carpetmanswife

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#25
It really annoys me to watch tv and see a 'minister' say" send me x amount of dollars and God will save your child, or heal your disease, or rain money on you. " I do believe God would love nothing more than to bless all of His children with wealth BUT not all of us are capable of handling it wisely and He knows that. This is my prayer as should it be off of us...Remove far from me vanity and lies: give me neither poverty nor riches; feed me with food convient for me; Lest I be full and deny thee, and say "Who is the Lord"? or lest I be poor and steal and take the name of my God in vain. Proverbs 30:8&9 Amen.

this is my prayer as it should be off of us ......:eek: ooopsy :rolleyes: I REALLY need a longer edit time lol
 
C

Cup-of-Ruin

Guest
#26
Cup of Rain, the thing with parables is that we have to watch we do not read into them that which is not there. I think you are reading 'into' the text instead of reading 'out'. All you have done in your post is, fired out a lot of your thoughts and you have not explained or backed up anyting to what you seem to be trying to say.

Remember this parable is amongst other parables talking about money/stewardship. I dont think I said this earlier but I am not against wealth, if you have it good, use it for the Kingdom, but, this prosperity gospel is a disgrace, Come to Jesus He will make you wealthy!!

Soli Deo Gloria

Phil
Yea, but Phil, how do you expect to recieve answers without asking the questions first? A parable is allegorical, that means that there is an abstract, there is a symbolic narrative, but the abstract concept is disguised, it's disguised, and intentially so, like when you say one thing but you mean another, this is the definition of a parable. We are supposed to read more into it then what is figuratively presented, to understand allegory it is neccessary to actually read something else in place of what is literally said, because there is a hidden meaning, like a riddle, you see, it a parable...I know the answer, and it took me along time to find it and I could not have done it less I was guided by the spirit, but what I have leant is that if you just give the answers straight out without getting others to inquire of the spirit themselves and start asking the questions and taking the steps, then they are not going to learn, they have to go through the steps the same as what all Christians have done when trying to come to terms with the parables of the Lord. It's not easy, I can assure you, but if you think that you know exactly what He means, and it's a money/stewardship story and the rich man fries in hell and the poor begger goes to Abraham's bosom for eternity and drinks nice cool water, if you believe that then there is nothing wrong or bad about that, it's not the true message, but no harm done.
 

phil36

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#27
Hi Cup of ruin, I have to say that I totally disagree with you on this.

T'The parables are extended similes, whereas allegories are extended metaphors. Like metaphors, allegories are inauthentic speech and must be decoded (you seem to be syaing this). Jesus' purpose was not to obscure, therefore his parables cannot be viewed wholly allegoric.

We can see allegory in the sowing of the seeds, but is it not still obvious?

Parables where used in 1st century palestine and before for teaching in an easy to remember and stimulating form, much like the use of a modern teacher using a power point illustration. Jesus' teaching was not some form of abstract theological truth.

By using this kind of teaching/graphical language Jesus ensured that his teachings would be remembered without difficulty (No library. pens or paper in them days... not even the internet.). Instead of speaking in ABSTRACTIONS, as a lot of religious leader have tended to do, Jesus always spoke of concrete situations and people.

If you take your approach, that is toatlly allegorical, you end up with serious problems. I will use St Augustine as an example. St Augustine with out a doubt was one of the great theologians, however his use of allegory in the parables was wrong. look at the good samaritan and how he used allegory to interprit it.

Basically the A rich young man asked Jesus a question (who is my neighbour?) and Jesus answered himin a parable, the gist of the story is that the Samaritan was the good neighbour (samaritans where despised by the Jews).

St Augustine took this and said all sorts,:

1, The traveller was 'Adam'
2, Jerusalem was the heavenly city of peace from which he fell
3, Jericho was the human mortality that he inherited from the Fall
4, The robber were the devil and his angels, who stripped him of his mortaliy
5, The priest and levite were the priesthood and ministry of the OT
6, The good samaritan was Christ himself
7, and it goes on.
(Augustine, Quaestiones Evangeliorium 2.19)

Now, that is were allegory gets you, The real message of the parable was, who the real neighbour was, an answer to the question in a real situation to a person.

Most of the parables, are about the Kingdom of God/Heaven and are Eschatological in theme.

Take for instance, you mention.. the purple linen the rich man was wearing in the parable of Lazarous, This is literary prop showing the mans wealth, if you could afford purple clothing, you were wealthy (the dye cost a fortune).

So I am afraid I cannot totally agree with you, that we have to search and route out the abstract deep truths of the parables as that is nonsense, take the whole of the synoptic gospels or even all four, and the wholeness of Christ teaching is clear and not Abstract.


Soli Deo Gloria.

Phil
 
H

Harley_Angel

Guest
#28
I really think the reason Jesus used parables was because we could understand them. I don't think he expected us to go and try to pick apart every word he said and find a special meaning. The parables are meant to help us understand complex ideas about what God wants for us in an every day situation. Maybe Jesus said he had five brothers just because that was an appropriate number of children to have in that day. Kind of like having 1 or 2 siblings is more common today. I doubt 5 has any more significance than that, same with everything else. When we start picking apart the parables word for word, we lose the true meaning of what they were supposed to be, a learning tool.
 

phil36

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Feb 12, 2009
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#29
I really think the reason Jesus used parables was because we could understand them. I don't think he expected us to go and try to pick apart every word he said and find a special meaning. The parables are meant to help us understand complex ideas about what God wants for us in an every day situation. Maybe Jesus said he had five brothers just because that was an appropriate number of children to have in that day. Kind of like having 1 or 2 siblings is more common today. I doubt 5 has any more significance than that, same with everything else. When we start picking apart the parables word for word, we lose the true meaning of what they were supposed to be, a learning tool.

Yep, Jesus taught in a manner that could be clearly heard and understood, and easily remembered.

Phil
 
C

Cup-of-Ruin

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#30
I really think the reason Jesus used parables was because we could understand them. I don't think he expected us to go and try to pick apart every word he said and find a special meaning. The parables are meant to help us understand complex ideas about what God wants for us in an every day situation. Maybe Jesus said he had five brothers just because that was an appropriate number of children to have in that day. Kind of like having 1 or 2 siblings is more common today. I doubt 5 has any more significance than that, same with everything else. When we start picking apart the parables word for word, we lose the true meaning of what they were supposed to be, a learning tool.
Matt 13:10-

"And the diciples came about Him and said, 'Why speakest Thou unto them in parables?"

Jesus was speaking to a multitude by the sea side, who had come to Him, they were not Pharisees or people seeking to kill Him, they were just various people who came to hear Jesus, and Jesus spoke to them in parables.

"He answered them, 'Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries (secrets) of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given." For whosoever hath, to him it shall be given and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not from him shall be taken away even that he hath."

"There-fore I speak in parables"

Jesus says that when He speaks in parables and He dosen't always speak in parables, but when He does it is because their are secrets that are hidden in what he is saying that He only wants certain people to understand - "Who hath the ears, let him hear"

"Because they seeing, see not: and hearing, hear not, neither do they understand,"

Also by it's very definition a parble is designed so that the true message is disguised within a allegorical story that is figuratively spoken,
 
C

Cup-of-Ruin

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#31
Hi Cup of ruin, I have to say that I totally disagree with you on this.

T'The parables are extended similes, whereas allegories are extended metaphors. Like metaphors, allegories are inauthentic speech and must be decoded (you seem to be syaing this). Jesus' purpose was not to obscure, therefore his parables cannot be viewed wholly allegoric.
Phil, a parable is allegory, the word used means correctly translated 'parable' that is the word, a parable is not a similie, two very different expressions, a 'parable' is not a similie, that is incorrect, a parable must be deciphered, it message is deliberately obscured for the purpose of disguise and Jesus states this in Mat 13. and this relates to prophecy and Isaiah the 'closed eyes' the 'dull hearing' 'heart's waxed gross'...

Jesus spoke in parable so that certain people would not understand what He is saying, you cannot understand what He is saying unless you be guided by the spirit.

Phil, you are not disagreeing with me you are in disagreement with what Jesus actually stated and is recorded in the Bible, now you say that Jesus spoke in smilies and that is wrong, Jesus spoke in parables, be careful not to change the word, we are always wrong it is the word that is correct, so let the word speak, if you do not understand then you must inquire and seek, will it not be given to you if you ask? Yes it will be given but first make every man a liar and let God be true.
 
Jan 8, 2009
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#32
Cup is right, the parables have an apparent and obvious meaning which is easily deduced by the many, but there is a larger message Jesus is conveying that only a few get.

I would go so far to say that the parable of the rich man/lazarus has little to do with Jesus's teachings on wealth and riches. But Jesus uses the apparent topic of wealth/riches in order to convey a hidden meaning.

The real message of the story is about Jesus being rejected by men and coming back from the dead.
I believe that Lazarus in the story was Jesus Himself. Lazarus was carried into Abraham's bosom, just as Jesus was at his crucifixion. Jesus was making a point about how He came to His own, the Israelites, and they accepted Him not. This is evident by the verses 28 to 30 about sending one back to tell them about the place of torment. As per verses 30/31, it is also very prophetic of Jesus's death and resurrection.
 
T

thefightinglamb

Guest
#33
I read a lot of Jewish interpretation of Tarah...and God showed me something through them by how we read scripture...

The Bible is like the ocean, it has many levels with meanings on each level, but sometimes the children playing in the shallows or on the shore find a meaning that scripture does show that the 'prideful wiseman' does not...

In such a case, even as you said, I was not trying to interpret the specific parable...nor was I trying to say it was simple parable about a poor man going to heaven and a rich man to hell, though that is profound in its childlike simplicity...

I was trying to show how Jesus did not discredit someone he used as an example for not 'claiming the wealth that was his by God's blessing' nor did the Lord say 'the reason you are not well is because you do not have enough faith in God's name to heal you'...on the contrary it seems Jesus does show us something for living even as I showed...if you blithely walk by your starving brother/sister in Christ, how can you calim to be Christian? That is one meaning that can be found in the ocean of this parable...I did not go into specifics, but it seems like the artless truth of practical application to our lives...

God bless
tony

ps...but also the rich very obviously are not glorified in the New Testament.
 
Jan 8, 2009
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#34
I should also add that parables have no one correct interpretation. They are designed so that each person who heard them would take away something different. And we can use them in that way too to make a point, like someone did re: riches in an earlier post.
 
C

Cup-of-Ruin

Guest
#35
"From the sole of the foot even unto the head there is no soundness in it; but wounds, and bruises, and putrefying sores: they have not been closed, neither bound up, neither mollified with ointment." Isaiah 1:6


Isaiah was talking about the true state of Israel...kind of like what Christianity is like today just like Eleazar "God is my helper", so true "God is my helper" yet afflicted by ulcers remaining a ptochos - begging, is it Godly to beg? what makes you think that Lazarus should be begging for crumbs but ptochos means more 'subserviant' and 'poor momentarily', why beg? but saved nonetheless.
 
C

Cup-of-Ruin

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#36
I should also add that parables have no one correct interpretation. They are designed so that each person who heard them would take away something different. And we can use them in that way too to make a point, like someone did re: riches in an earlier post.
I agree, and they relate to different times, and God intends this, there are many levels of understanding, now there would be an ultimate truth here, but nobody has ever understood the Bible completely, it's like the further you dig the more there is.
 
Aug 22, 2009
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#37
My own views on money is that I tend to get scandalized when it is brought up in a religious setting. There are just too many scripture verses for me not to. And I think the secular world has a similar view and is scandalized when religious people talk about money sometimes. I think the issue of money should be kept quiet. But at the end of the day, this is what I say: I judge no person because I do not know what is in their heart, I only hope that when you give with your right hand, let not your left hand know. In addition, I go to church to be close to my Lord Jesus, not to learn about how to make money.
 
C

carpetmanswife

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#38
Cup Of Ruin , im liking the new avatar picture *2 thumbs up*
 

phil36

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#40
Cup of ruin, the English word for parable refers to short narratives. The Greek and Hebrew words for 'parable' are much broader, Jesus' parables are both works of art and weapons he used in the conflict with his opponents.


Jesus used 'parables' as a teaching method as was common form in those days and before. Jesus chose this method frequently to explain the kingdom of God and to show God's character and God's expectations for His people.


The Greek word for parable, 'parabole' is a broader definition than the English equivalent, it can mean: Proverb (LK 4:23), a riddle (MK 3.23), a comparison (MT 13:33, a contrast (LK 18:18) and both simple stories (Lk13:6-9) and complex (MT 22:1-14).


Parables are intended to stimulate thought and illicit a response from the hearer, as they were originally spoken to the people (and might I add to us who now read them).


A 'similitude' is an extended 'simile' (an explicit comparison using 'like' or 'as'), it is a comparison relating a typical or recurring event in real life. cf, Mt 13:31-32.


Examples of this are all in Luke: 'the good Samaritan, the rich fool, the rich man and Lazarus and the Pharisee and Tax collector'.


Other parables are extended metaphors (implied comparison) referring to a fictional event or events to express a moral or spiritual truth. In this sense 'allegory' is a series of metaphors, the parable of the sower is a good example.


Some use Hyperbolic statements and are pseudo-realistic in nature: It would be very unlikely that in 1st century Palestine that anyone would be in debt of 10,000 (equivalent now of a few million Pounds/Dollars) Mt 18:23-35.


Parables elicit thought, 22 parables start with a question such as ' who from you....?' or 'what do you think....?' Most of the parables are theocentric in that they focus on God, His Kingdom and expectations. Parables are often invitations to change behavioral patterns, change your ways.


There are allegorical elements within the parables but the parables are not Altogether allegorical, as We have seen in my post above on how St Augustine used allegory to incorrectly interpret the 'Good Samaritan'.


Now regarding the Passage Mark 4:10-12, one of the keys to understanding the parables lies in discovering the original audience to whom they were spoken and why the evangelists placed the parables in the narrative text where they did, many times the parables came down the the evangelist without context. Cf, Luke 1:1-4.


What did Mark mean? Most probably the key to this is a play on words by Jesus' native Aramaic language. The word 'methal' wich is translated 'parabole' in Greek (LXX) was used for a whole range of figures of speech in the riddle/puzzle/parable category and not just for the story variety in English.


Verse 11 probably meant that the meaning of Jesus' ministry (the secret of the kingdom) could not be perceived by those outside; it was like a 'methal', a riddle, to them. Hence his speaking in 'methelin' parables was part of the 'methal'(riddle) of his WHOLE MINISTRY to them.


They saw, but failed to see; they heard – and even understood – the parables, but they failed to hear in a way that led to obedience.




Now, these parables were not some form of abstract, needing special interpretation as we know that people heard them and understood. Cf:


      1. Jesus told parables to people LK 15:3; 18:9; 19:11, with the clear implication that the parables were to be understood.
      2. The 'Expert in the Law' clearly understood the parable Jesus spoke (Lk 10:25-37)
      3. The chief priests and Pharisees understood the parable of the 'tenants' (Mt 21:45

Their problem was not with understanding, but with letting the parables alter their behaviour!




Various, works/scholars have been cited in this post.


Gordon D Fee
Douglas Stuart
K R snodgrass
J Drane
I H Marshall


Works:
New Bible Dictionary
Dictionary of Jesus and the Gospels
Introduction to the New Testament
How to read the bible for all its worth


And various bible translations, ESV< KJV< NLT<NIV


The above works are Highly recommended and would serve well any Bible Student.


Soli Deo Gloria


Phil
 
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