Misunderstood

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Dec 25, 2012
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#1
I think it is often misunderstood that those of the Reformed community don't preach holiness or repentance. On the contrary i beleive those who are sincere would agree with James that faith without work is dead.i think the biggest confusion is that we dont preach that works result in salvation rather they are a result of salvation.
 
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layman316

Guest
#2
I think it is often misunderstood that those of the Reformed community don't preach holiness or repentance. On the contrary i beleive those who are sincere would agree with James that faith without work is dead.i think the biggest confusion is that we dont preach that works result in salvation rather they are a result of salvation.

Are you saying that James was saying that no works no salvation?
 
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Kefa52

Guest
#3
Galatians 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faith Or faithfulness.

These fruits are internal changes. Who am I to judge where a person is, in their walk with Christ.

At my church there is a mens group on Thursday Night. I can't make the mens group because I am in another part of the building facilitating a private addictions meeting. One might conclude that i don't have fruit because I don't go to the mens group.

What someone considers fruit, might not be my fruit . Be careful with this.
 
Jul 12, 2012
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#4
In my area, I don't see very much actual preaching that works lead to salvation.
And, oddly, I rarely hear preached that works are a result of salvation. Which is what I believe.
And they don't have to be great or recognized by others.
 
Dec 5, 2012
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#5
In my area, I don't see very much actual preaching that works lead to salvation.
And, oddly, I rarely hear preached that works are a result of salvation. Which is what I believe.
And they don't have to be great or recognized by others.
This sounds like "works" to me.

34 Then the king will say to those at his right hand, ‘Come, you that are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world; 35 for I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, 36 I was naked and you gave me clothing, I was sick and you took care of me, I was in prison and you visited me.’ 37 Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when was it that we saw you hungry and gave you food, or thirsty and gave you something to drink? 38 And when was it that we saw you a stranger and welcomed you, or naked and gave you clothing? 39 And when was it that we saw you sick or in prison and visited you?’ 40 And the king will answer them, ‘Truly I tell you, just as you did it to one of the least of these who are members of my family,[g] you did it to me.’ 41 Then he will say to those at his left hand, ‘You that are accursed, depart from me into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels; 42 for I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not give me clothing, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.’ 44 Then they also will answer, ‘Lord, when was it that we saw you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not take care of you?’ 45 Then he will answer them, ‘Truly I tell you, just as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.’ 46 And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.
 

damombomb

Senior Member
Feb 27, 2011
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#6
The bible also says blessed are those who turn many to righteuosness, for they shall shine like the brightness of the firment
 
Dec 9, 2011
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#7
In my area, I don't see very much actual preaching that works lead to salvation.
And, oddly, I rarely hear preached that works are a result of salvation. Which is what I believe.
And they don't have to be great or recognized by others.
PRAISE GOD .

Hello WolfInOxHide i agree with you that preachers don't preach that works is a result of salvation.I don't think the world understands.I wish preachers would preach it that way,make sure and remind us that(works is a result of a reborn spirit) instead of works lead to salvation.:)

Those were excellent scriptures Rock022

GOD the Holy SPIRIT said through Apostle James (faith without works is dead) this helps me.

Thanks exbi-savedbygrace for this thread.
 
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1still_waters

Guest
#8
Yeah some like to toss out the antinomian word toward reformed folks, like people do candy on Halloween. They toss their darts, but if you respond back, they give these fluffy retorts back about not throwing darts at your fellow siblings in the faith.
 
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rauleetoe

Guest
#9
I think it is often misunderstood that those of the Reformed community don't preach holiness or repentance. On the contrary i beleive those who are sincere would agree with James that faith without work is dead.i think the biggest confusion is that we dont preach that works result in salvation rather they are a result of salvation.
I can only say that some here who claim to be 'of calvin' are more interested in word debates and telling the rest of us that we are trusting in ourselves..without ever knowing us.
Sadly there are prejudices amongst some calvinists against those,any whom oppose TULIP are considered catholic,works based,pridefull,saving themselves..not acknowledging God as sovereign..and the list goes on.
I have had some call me works based here, i have had even one on another site tell me i have no the gospel..and another flat out call me a sinner and a goat! I could not make this up..and i know you have not said such things..you seem to be a more sensible one.
As far as holiness..yes..i believe there are 5 point calvinists who seek after God and truly move beyond the assurance of TULIP,and election and agree that while works do not save,them and fruit are a necessary and secondary result of a truly confirmed and sincere christian conversion.
Sadly..some appeal to only grace, which leaves it to seem as they never responded to grace..for if Grace is there, that means we cannot just go on living as we once did..right?
I do hope others do accept your stance and not just appeal to 'good theology' and have some true emphasis in their walks..for theology, no matter how popular,trendy or 'good' it may be..cannot save you..God is not mocked.
 

crossnote

Senior Member
Nov 24, 2012
30,704
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#10
I think it is often misunderstood that those of the Reformed community don't preach holiness or repentance. On the contrary i beleive those who are sincere would agree with James that faith without work is dead.i think the biggest confusion is that we dont preach that works result in salvation rather they are a result of salvation.
My experience in the past having spent time in Reformed Churches is the opposite. Holiness, examining oneself, always repenting (all good to a degree) has overshadowed the Gospel of the forgiveness of our sins on account of Christ. A matter of emphasis.
 

RickyZ

Senior Member
Sep 20, 2012
9,635
787
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#11
I think it is often misunderstood that those of the Reformed community don't preach holiness or repentance. On the contrary i beleive those who are sincere would agree with James that faith without work is dead.i think the biggest confusion is that we dont preach that works result in salvation rather they are a result of salvation.
Salvation comes thru the confession of Christ. That is the one and only 'work' you can do to be saved. Your works are called into play when we are caught up to be with Him, and He judges us for them. And there is reward and penalty according to them. But rewarded or penalized, we are still saved by confession.
 

Blain

The Word Weaver
Aug 28, 2012
19,177
2,539
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#12
Are you saying that James was saying that no works no salvation?
No thats not it, see if you truly have salvation you will do works because you are lead by the holy spirit, this is something that alot of people twist around....
 
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Kefa52

Guest
#13
Can we define good works as any outward sign of the internal change? I know a couple of folks that their works were waking up without wanting to kill themselves and wanting to share their new found freedom.
 
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psychomom

Guest
#14
There are (and probably always shall be) churches that fail to teach that 'faith without works is dead' (no faith at all)

And there are some churches (and probably always shall be) that fail to teach that works without faith is dead. (no faith at all)

Nothing new under the sun? :)

My own experience has mirrored that of crossnote's.
Lots of 'repentance and holiness' preaching and not enough gospel. (not just unto salvation, but the power of the Cross in the life of the believer)
Both are necessary, but you can't have the first two without the third. :)

Yet I feel hopefully certain that if enough reformed churches could be visited, the balance would be found, just by what I've read by people like Sproul.
 
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rauleetoe

Guest
#15
There are (and probably always shall be) churches that fail to teach that 'faith without works is dead' (no faith at all)

And there are some churches (and probably always shall be) that fail to teach that works without faith is dead. (no faith at all)

Nothing new under the sun? :)

My own experience has mirrored that of crossnote's.
Lots of 'repentance and holiness' preaching and not enough gospel. (not just unto salvation, but the power of the Cross in the life of the believer)
Both are necessary, but you can't have the first two without the third. :)

Yet I feel hopefully certain that if enough reformed churches could be visited, the balance would be found, just by what I've read by people like Sproul.
I think what is far more important than 'redeeming reformed churches' is making sure that all those who claim to be christian are really in the faith...the word says, examine yourselves to see if you are in the faith..it says..be not deceived,God is not mocked,whatever a man sows,that he shall reap..he who sows to the flesh will of the flesh reap corruption..he who sows to the spirit will of the spirit reap life everlasting..Galatians 6:7-8..
We are to work out our salvation with fear and trembling like Phillipians 2 says..so while no one was intentionally trying to offend any of the reformed theology adherents here, i surely hope that what the bible has to say about holiness and living for him is far more important to you than any 'trendy theology' or label or heritage you may hold onto..that's all im saying..so..hold onto your young restless reformed label if you must, but at the end of the day, you are either serving him or you are not..and you will have no excuse, your works will prove if you are truly 'elect'..no theological position that is just a mindset and a belief system that is not truly implemented in the life of that person who says he or she believes will ever save anybody..
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
#16
Are you saying that James was saying that no works no salvation?

No James is saying the fruit of salvation is works. One who has no works is not producing the fruit of salvation. thus how could it be said he had the true faith which leads to salvation. and not just mere belief? In other words, the same gospel we hear today, that one can merely believe, say a prayer, and think he is saved, and live however he wants, was also being taught and practiced in james day.
 
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rauleetoe

Guest
#17
Btw EG..I must inform you that if you are trying to take another Jab at me..You have been placed on ignore..so i cannot see your clever 'jabs' sorry to tell you ;)
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
#18
This sounds like "works" to me.

34 Then the king will say to those at his right hand, ‘Come, you that are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world; 35 for I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, 36 I was naked and you gave me clothing, I was sick and you took care of me, I was in prison and you visited me.’ 37 Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when was it that we saw you hungry and gave you food, or thirsty and gave you something to drink? 38 And when was it that we saw you a stranger and welcomed you, or naked and gave you clothing? 39 And when was it that we saw you sick or in prison and visited you?’ 40 And the king will answer them, ‘Truly I tell you, just as you did it to one of the least of these who are members of my family,[g] you did it to me.’ 41 Then he will say to those at his left hand, ‘You that are accursed, depart from me into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels; 42 for I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not give me clothing, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.’ 44 Then they also will answer, ‘Lord, when was it that we saw you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not take care of you?’ 45 Then he will answer them, ‘Truly I tell you, just as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.’ 46 And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.
there is a huge difference though.

1. Those who have to faith have true repentance. The works they do Glorify God because it is others focus and not self focused.

2. Those who have mere belief work to benefit self. It is not outward focused, but self focused, even if they are the same works. So it glorifies self and not God. and God will reject these works as human good.
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
#19
There are (and probably always shall be) churches that fail to teach that 'faith without works is dead' (no faith at all)

And there are some churches (and probably always shall be) that fail to teach that works without faith is dead. (no faith at all)

Nothing new under the sun? :)

My own experience has mirrored that of crossnote's.
Lots of 'repentance and holiness' preaching and not enough gospel. (not just unto salvation, but the power of the Cross in the life of the believer)
Both are necessary, but you can't have the first two without the third. :)

Yet I feel hopefully certain that if enough reformed churches could be visited, the balance would be found, just by what I've read by people like Sproul.
this is true. But how is this different really than teaching faith and works will save you. That you can have true faith. But still end up losing salvation based on whatever code of ethics or works they teach? is this not just as false a gospel than teaching that we can have mere belief, and no faith at all (proven by the fact there is no works) and be saved?
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
#20
I think what is far more important than 'redeeming reformed churches' is making sure that all those who claim to be christian are really in the faith...the word says, examine yourselves to see if you are in the faith..it says..be not deceived,God is not mocked,whatever a man sows,that he shall reap..he who sows to the flesh will of the flesh reap corruption..he who sows to the spirit will of the spirit reap life everlasting..Galatians 6:7-8..
This is true. That is why true repentance is essential. One has has not repented will not have faith. Thus will not look to the spirit, thus will not produce fruit (works) And those who do have true faith coming from true repentance will seek the spirit and produce fruit.

The problem is, many will grow like paul, and even as mature as he was, still not think he is good enough. And continue to run the race. while many will be like the Corinthian church, be babes in Christ. Not taught, Not discipled correctly, and led astray by many things, yet still be saved.



We are to work out our salvation with fear and trembling like Phillipians 2 says..so while no one was intentionally trying to offend any of the reformed theology adherents here, i surely hope that what the bible has to say about holiness and living for him is far more important to you than any 'trendy theology' or label or heritage you may hold onto..that's all im saying..so..
1. Paul was not saying work out to get saved. he was saying work out the results of your salvation. We are to be lights in the world. and draw others to Christ, and we should fear greatly less somehow our light does not shine, and we lose the power God gave us to work in this world.

2. He never claimed we could lose salvation, or we should fear it. this is a gross misinterpretation of this passage.


hold onto your young restless reformed label if you must, but at the end of the day, you are either serving him or you are not..and you will have no excuse, your works will prove if you are truly 'elect'..no theological position that is just a mindset and a belief system that is not truly implemented in the life of that person who says he or she believes will ever save anybody..

I do not do the theologian or reformed stuff. I was led astray by these traditional churches. I prefer just sticking to the word of God. let the past lay in the past and move forward..

so no, I am not offended in any way. Call me what you wish. The only one who matters in my mind is what God thinks. Not what any man thinks.