Total Depravity vs. Freewill

[RickShafer]

This is a thread meant to explore the differences between those who hold to the doctrine of election vs. those who hold to the doctrine of freewill.
Rules:
1) No snarkiness. ( Smart Alec answers turn away others more than lead them to truth)
2) No extended cut and paste posts. ( we all can refer to theologian's books)
3) No extended posts. (If you can't explain yourself succinctly, move on)

First off, definitions are in order:
Total depravity:
Total depravity is a theological doctrine derived from the Augustinian concept of original sin. It is the teaching that, as a consequence of the Fall of Man, every person born into the world is enslaved to the service of sin and, apart from the efficacious or prevenient grace of God, is utterly unable to choose to follow God, refrain from evil, or accept the gift of salvation as it is offered.

Free Will:
Free will is the ability of agents to make choices. In philosophy controversy exists as to what degree and under what circumstances free will is possible.[1]

 

[RickShafer]

I'll start.
I believe in election; due to the total depravity of man.
Total depravity does not mean totally depraved in the moral sense, - as in Hitler, or a serial murderer, or a reprobate.
It means the nature of mankind is towards sin-(falling short).
It means the nature of man is not towards righteousness-(God likeness).

(Scriptures attesting to the sin state of mankind):

Romans 3:9,10 "What then?are we better than they? No, in no wise: For we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin. As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one."

Psalms 51:5 "Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me."


(Scriptures for election):

Romans 8:29,30 - " For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified."

Ephesians 1:5 - Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

Ephesians 1:11 - " In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

Romans 11:5 - "Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace."

(Though there were many more to chose from in both categories.)

 

[unclefester]

I do not believe that it was my freewill that humbled me to my knees crying out to my God and Saviour to forgive and rescue me from my sinful condition and this body of death. The conviction(s) of God's Holy Spirit in my heart brought me to this place ... and if I ever do anything that is pleasing in the eyes of God, it is wholly and entirely because of Christ dwelling in me. Matter of fact, I'd go so far as to say that if the decision whether to trust in Christ or not was left up to me (us), none of us would be inheriting God's kingdom. We're simply not that intelligent on our own. We love Him because He first loved us. Should be an interesting thread Rick. Well done sir

Romans 8:28 ... And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose.

 

[psychomom]

10 And not only this, but there was Rebekah also, when she had conceived twins by one man, our father Isaac;
11 for though the twins were not yet born and had not done anything good or bad, so that God’s purpose according to His choice would stand, not because of works but because of Him who calls,
12 it was said to her, “THE OLDER WILL SERVE THE YOUNGER.”
13 Just as it is written, “JACOB I LOVED, BUT ESAU I HATED.”
14 What shall we say then? There is no injustice with God, is there? May it never be!
15 For He says to Moses, “I WILL HAVE MERCY ON WHOM I HAVE MERCY, AND I WILL HAVE COMPASSION ON WHOM I HAVE COMPASSION.”
16 So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy.
17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “FOR THIS VERY PURPOSE I RAISED YOU UP, TO DEMONSTRATE MY POWER IN YOU, AND THAT MY NAME MIGHT BE PROCLAIMED THROUGHOUT THE WHOLE EARTH.”
18 So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires. (Romans 9)


Is there to be a post limit, Rick?


because I could do this most of the morning.

 

[RickShafer]

Beautiful Ellie.
No post limit.
Keep 'em coming.
Because I know the whole Bible is full of examples of His unmerited favor.
(I had a hard time NOT finding His grace in totality, from a murderer like Moses to another murderer like Saul on the road to Damascus.)

 

[RickShafer]

In between the grace I saw people who were vessels fitted unto wrath.
The whole of the matter is crystal clear, though we will see how it(this thread) plays out.

 

[Abiding]

OPPS! that was a extra biblical source

 

[RickShafer]

Funny Abiding,.......(I like your style).

 

[psychomom]

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ,

4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love

5 He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will,

6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, which He freely bestowed on us in the Beloved. (Eph. 1)

I first began to piece together verses like this almost 16 years ago.
(yeah...I'm a slow learner. )

When the Lord Jesus said, 'The Truth will make you free' He meant it.
Knowing I'm not free is incredibly freeing!
It's not about me, or my choice...it's about God! ♥

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I look at it different. I see Total depravity as you said, a person can not do good of his own. This is true, even when they do do morally right things, it is based on a self serving or self focused attitude, so it is not even good.

what I don't see is a man unable to seek help. Scripture is clear. Man does know the law, god wrote it in their hearts. They do know They are rightly judged. And they can seek to be saved from this judgment.

Rom 1 tells us man knows God, But has hidden him from their hearts.

19 because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, 21 because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Professing to be wise, they became fools,

Paul makes it clear. they knew God, But became futile in their thoughts, as they hide God (ignored everything that pointed to him, even though it was clear) and became fools. As it says in scripture a fool says in his heart there is no God.

Paul continues in romans 1:

32 who, knowing the righteous judgment of God, that those who practice such things are deserving of death, not only do the same but also approve of those who practice them.

Proving a few things.

1. They Know who god is (the living God, not the fake ones)
2. They know his righteous judgment, and they deserve spiritual death
3. They are without excuse.

Paul even goes back to this subject in his letter to the Ephesians. Chapter 4

17 This I say, therefore, and testify in the Lord, that you should no longer walk as the rest of[d] the Gentiles walk, in the futility of their mind, 18 having their understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God, because of the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart; 19 who, being past feeling, have given themselves over to lewdness, to work all uncleanness with greediness.


again, he mentions the futility of their thinking. Going back to romans 1. He says they have darkened their hearts to truth, and because of this have alienated themselves from the life of God. The word ignorance here is not the same word we think, where one is unlearned, or does not know. this form in the greek is used when one knows something but ignores it. or hides it from themselves. It is like a person who knew something was wrong, but did it anyway, and when he gets caught, he plays dumb. Paul says they hide the truth, and seek other things which will please them, As they are greedy (self focused in all things) and thus they can not know God. who is all about love.


Even Jesus touches on this subject.



John 3:20
For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed.

So what we see here is a truth. mankind can know they are justly condemned. But they hate God, and more importantly, Love their sin. so what do they do according to these passages?

1. They make their own Gods, who will bow to their will, answer their own desires..
2. They make them self God. If I am God, I can say what is morally right, and no one will judge me, for I am my own judge. and how dare anyone appose me.
3. They blind themselves to truth, we see this today, as science proves life on earth could not happen without a creator. Yet they do not look at the proofs, but do everything they can to dismiss the fact that someone had to create life, or life would not exist.
4. They make up their own Gospel. A gospel which seems to look like the truth of the gospel. But they add their own works to the gospel. Failing to realise they are doomed and without hope apart from grace.
5. They hide the truth, even though it is clearly seen. Meaning they CAN KNOW the gospel. and they CAN come to help. It is Not God who hides it from them, God makes himself clearly seen to ALL MEN AND WOMEN. It is they who hide the truth in their unrighteousness.


Now to the grace subject. Man does not deserve to live the very gift of life in and of itself is grace, even if that person never comes to Christ, the fact he was allowed the chance to live and make his choice was given in grace.

 

[psychomom]

And He was saying, "For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father." (John 6:65)

 

[eternally-gratefull]

10 And not only this, but there was Rebekah also, when she had conceived twins by one man, our father Isaac;
11 for though the twins were not yet born and had not done anything good or bad, so that God’s purpose according to His choice would stand, not because of works but because of Him who calls,
12 it was said to her, “THE OLDER WILL SERVE THE YOUNGER.”
13 Just as it is written, “JACOB I LOVED, BUT ESAU I HATED.”
14 What shall we say then? There is no injustice with God, is there? May it never be!
15 For He says to Moses, “I WILL HAVE MERCY ON WHOM I HAVE MERCY, AND I WILL HAVE COMPASSION ON WHOM I HAVE COMPASSION.”
16 So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy.
17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “FOR THIS VERY PURPOSE I RAISED YOU UP, TO DEMONSTRATE MY POWER IN YOU, AND THAT MY NAME MIGHT BE PROCLAIMED THROUGHOUT THE WHOLE EARTH.”
18 So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires. (Romans 9)


Is there to be a post limit, Rick?


because I could do this most of the morning.

can I ask you a few questions.

can you show me in scripture where Esau ever bowed down to jacob?
Can you show me where Esau ever served jacob?
Can you show me where in scripture it says Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated, and give us the context of that passage (ie, who God was talking about)?
God told Moses, i will have mercy on who I have mercy. Can you show us what he meant?
Can you tell us what the term. "harden" means??

 

[eternally-gratefull]

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ,

4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love

5 He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will,

6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, which He freely bestowed on us in the Beloved. (Eph. 1)

I first began to piece together verses like this almost 16 years ago.
(yeah...I'm a slow learner. )

When the Lord Jesus said, 'The Truth will make you free' He meant it.
Knowing I'm not free is incredibly freeing!
It's not about me, or my choice...it's about God! ♥

Can the truth also enslave you? I think it can. Now the question is, do you understand what I mean??

 

[psychomom]

can I ask you a few questions.

can you show me in scripture where Esau ever bowed down to jacob?
Can you show me where Esau ever served jacob?
Can you show me where in scripture it says Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated, and give us the context of that passage (ie, who God was talking about)?
God told Moses, i will have mercy on who I have mercy. Can you show us what he meant?
Can you tell us what the term. "harden" means??

Hey, EG!
Good Morning.

I am going to take a leap here and guess you're getting at the idea election is limited to the Jews? (and that this passage in Romans 9 is only referring to the Jews)
(if that's not right, please do correct me, though. )

If this were the only passage of scripture that speaks of election, I'd have to grant that point. But it really isn't.

What about this?

48 When the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord; and as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed. (Acts 13)

 

[psychomom]

Can the truth also enslave you? I think it can. Now the question is, do you understand what I mean??

In answer to your first question, not if it's Truth.

to the second, I really doubt it. lol

But we are all confined to our understanding, if that's what you mean?

 

[RickShafer]

So what does that say about mankind E.G.?
We can see the truth, we can know the truth, but yet somehow forget it. -
Romans 1:28 - "and even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them
over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient:"
And again - "For when gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law,
these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves." - Romans 2:14
Who put the law into their hearts?
Was it themselves?
Having this pseudo law, will it save them?
Of course not!
For by the law is no man saved: Romans 3:20 - "Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight:
for by the law is the knowledge of sin."
It is all a work of God through Jesus Christ on our souls and consciousnesses.

 

[psychomom]

can I ask you a few questions.

can you show me in scripture where Esau ever bowed down to jacob?
Can you show me where Esau ever served jacob?
Can you show me where in scripture it says Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated, and give us the context of that passage (ie, who God was talking about)?
God told Moses, i will have mercy on who I have mercy. Can you show us what he meant?
Can you tell us what the term. "harden" means??

You know, the fact that Jacob was pretty fearful of his brother most all his life only makes the meaning of that passage more sure, to me, anyway.
You're right, Esau didn't serve or bow to Jacob so I'm left to conclude Malachi's prophecy refers to something greater than those two men.

What do you think about it?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

In answer to your first question, not if it's Truth.

to the second, I really doubt it. lol

But we are all confined to our understanding, if that's what you mean?

I take you to romans 1 and eph 4. Truth can enslave you. for hiding truth from yourself enslaves you to a life of sin, of disappointment, of a lifelong search to find happiness and satisfaction where you will never find it. Hopefully these things bring you to christ. So you can know truth, and it can set you free. but unfortunately. for many, that will never happened, because they have become callous to truth by the hardening of their own hearts.

 

[psychomom]

I'm off to pray for some folks and bake some bread (cinnamon swirl for the kiddos and apple cinnamon raisin for Mark)
but I hope to be back in a while.

Can't wait to see what happens!

love to you all-
ellie

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Hey, EG!
Good Morning.

I am going to take a leap here and guess you're getting at the idea election is limited to the Jews? (and that this passage in Romans 9 is only referring to the Jews)
(if that's not right, please do correct me, though. )

If this were the only passage of scripture that speaks of election, I'd have to grant that point. But it really isn't.

No, this would not be correct. I am trying to get context of what was said.

What about this?

48 When the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord; and as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed. (Acts 13)

[/quote]

No, this does not answer. It is not about jew or gentile. It is about what Paul wrote.. he quoted OT passages.. so lets get context of these passages to see what paul really meant when he said those things..

So again.

can you show me in scripture where Esau ever bowed down to jacob?
Can you show me where Esau ever served jacob?
Can you show me where in scripture it says Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated, and give us the context of that passage (ie, who God was talking about)?
God told Moses, i will have mercy on who I have mercy. Can you show us what he meant?
Can you tell us what the term. "harden" means??