Lets try this agin (a post trib study for those learning about the post trib rapture)

[Asmodeus]

eh, not another thread. my questions where actually just to make the point that these things are in fact, questionable.

 

[watchmen]

the first resurrection is pretaining to only the great tribulations saints the ones that refused the mark of the beast.
Re 20:4And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.Re 20:5But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

The first resurrection as you pointed out in this post is after the tribulation, yet the just are resurrected before the rapture. There can be no resurrection of the just before the first resurrection. You have just proven the post trib rapture.

Re 7:14And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
and even at this I thes, says that some didn't taste death those that remain were also taken up here in rev 20 these were the souls of those that had died, TWO SEPERATE EVENTS

These come out of great tribulation by martyrdom, not by rapture. Moreover if it were by rapture as you claim then that would disprove the pretrib rapture because they couldn't have came out of great tribulation if they were not first in it.

Ga 4:16Am I therefore become your enemy, because I tell you the truth?

I would not call you an enemy just another lost soul void of truth. I haven't seen you speak the truth to anyone on this forum yet, much less me in this thread. However you have hijacked it twice now and that is not the fruit of a Christian.


P.S. Both the scriptures you gave to prove your point disprove the pretrib rapture ironic huh?

 

[watchmen]

eh, not another thread. my questions where actually just to make the point that these things are in fact, questionable.

We all believe the bible is true in here, although some refuse to accept what it says.

 

[broken]

Thank you for the post watchmen. I have never been presented this information before. This way, I at least get to make up my own mind and prove things against the scripture.

The business in Mathew and mark is exceedingly clear.

Wesley sums this up neatly: “ The general rule of interpreting Scripture is this: the literal sense of every text is to be taken, if it not be contrary to some other texts. But in that case, the obscure text is to be interpreted by those that speak more plainly… Try all things by the written word, and let all bow down before it. You are in danger of fanaticism every hour, if you depart ever so little from Scripture; yea, or from the plain literal meaning of a text, taken in connection with the context.”

If I apply Wesley’s sound advice to Mathew 24 and Mark 13, the conclusion I draw is abundantly clear. Everything else seems, at first blush, to be supportive.

I do have a couple of thoughts that I am relaying here as I was analyzing the scriptures. These were thoughts I had while studying. May or may not be worthy of mention. These thoughts follow:

2nd Thes. 2:1-3


If taken apart from previously cited Mathew and mark, it is easy to see where one might consider that the rapture could happen directly after the son of perdition is revealed. It is a valid possibility. Without the context of Mathew and Mark, this scripture indicates the only requirement is the appearance of the son of perdition.

Initially I was not convinced that the day mentioned here is one day. After some research I am convinced that it is indeed THE Day of the Lord and is 24 hours long.

The falling way is not the Rapture, it absolutely is the apostasy.


Mark 13

He is talking both to his current disciples (then) and to all disciples to come; since we are all meant to be disciples, not merely saved. This then is what the disciples will immediately face and is a segue to discussion of The Day of the Lord yet to come.

John 6:39-54

I had a much different interpretation of ‘raise him up on that last day.’ I perceived this in the past as admonishment, lifting up spiritually, not raptured. I am no longer so sure. The possibility casts a very different light on the scripture.

1 cor 15:51 – 53

There are too many inconsistencies between manuscripts for any discussion of 51b to be authoritative. There are four distinctly different and contradictory wordings between manuscripts. Obviously I am trusting a theologian’s supply of information on this. As I am most assuredly am layman. However, it seems logical not to trust any assumption when four legitimate pre-english sources are conflicting.

Vs 52-53 – the last trumpet is very clear here. I see no argument.

1 Thes 5:2-3

Thief in the night does blow holes in the 7 years thing. Furthermore, I have always interpreted the 7 years not to be about judgment but rather to force humans existing during that period to make a final choice: serve Christ or serve the enemy. This is to fulfill the great commission found in mark.

2 Thes 2:8

What about the great white throne in Rev 20:11-13? A judgment of those whose names are not written in the Lambs book of life clearly happens here. It is exceedingly clear. This brings into question your conclusion that the rapture and the final judgment of the wicked is simultaneous. It doesn’t disprove or prove post-trib, just is in conflict with your assumption concerning 2:8.



My impressions are that I must continue to study pre/post trib. I’m not convinced. I lean toward post trib, previously largely based on logic. Mathew and Mark certainly add significantly to that weight. I will pursue this issue more once I get some other studies of my plate.


For the record, there’s no reason to be calling anyone evil, corrupt, blind leading blind or anything else concerning pre/mid/post trib. Anyone who engages in such behavior, be pre/mid/or post believer is not operating in love. Anyone. We have been commanded by Christ to love each other. Oh you can justify it all you want and some of you will. But if you really seek God on this, and stop being puffed up, you will see that I am correct in this opinion. I am speaking from the Spirit, not flesh. Pre/Mid/Post is not an eternal salvation issue, it is entirely speculation. We hope, we read, we pray, we assume. But it is all ‘We’ meaning humans. We are imperfect and we cannot see clearly. This nonsense of accusing one another over such a silly separation in doctrine is childish. We all claim to drink more than milk here. Prove it by discussing difficult topics without resorting to childish personal attacks on one another’s salvation and motives.

How dare we call unclean what God has made clean?


I openly invite pre-tribers to post their own thread. I am interested in proving my doctrine.

 

[watchmen]

Thank you for the post watchmen. I have never been presented this information before. This way, I at least get to make up my own mind and prove things against the scripture.

The business in Mathew and mark is exceedingly clear.

Wesley sums this up neatly: “ The general rule of interpreting Scripture is this: the literal sense of every text is to be taken, if it not be contrary to some other texts. But in that case, the obscure text is to be interpreted by those that speak more plainly… Try all things by the written word, and let all bow down before it. You are in danger of fanaticism every hour, if you depart ever so little from Scripture; yea, or from the plain literal meaning of a text, taken in connection with the context.”

If I apply Wesley’s sound advice to Mathew 24 and Mark 13, the conclusion I draw is abundantly clear. Everything else seems, at first blush, to be supportive.

I do have a couple of thoughts that I am relaying here as I was analyzing the scriptures. These were thoughts I had while studying. May or may not be worthy of mention. These thoughts follow:

2nd Thes. 2:1-3


If taken apart from previously cited Mathew and mark, it is easy to see where one might consider that the rapture could happen directly after the son of perdition is revealed. It is a valid possibility. Without the context of Mathew and Mark, this scripture indicates the only requirement is the appearance of the son of perdition.

Initially I was not convinced that the day mentioned here is one day. After some research I am convinced that it is indeed THE Day of the Lord and is 24 hours long.

The falling way is not the Rapture, it absolutely is the apostasy.


Mark 13

He is talking both to his current disciples (then) and to all disciples to come; since we are all meant to be disciples, not merely saved. This then is what the disciples will immediately face and is a segue to discussion of The Day of the Lord yet to come.

John 6:39-54

I had a much different interpretation of ‘raise him up on that last day.’ I perceived this in the past as admonishment, lifting up spiritually, not raptured. I am no longer so sure. The possibility casts a very different light on the scripture.

1 cor 15:51 – 53

There are too many inconsistencies between manuscripts for any discussion of 51b to be authoritative. There are four distinctly different and contradictory wordings between manuscripts. Obviously I am trusting a theologian’s supply of information on this. As I am most assuredly am layman. However, it seems logical not to trust any assumption when four legitimate pre-english sources are conflicting.

Vs 52-53 – the last trumpet is very clear here. I see no argument.

1 Thes 5:2-3

Thief in the night does blow holes in the 7 years thing. Furthermore, I have always interpreted the 7 years not to be about judgment but rather to force humans existing during that period to make a final choice: serve Christ or serve the enemy. This is to fulfill the great commission found in mark.

2 Thes 2:8

What about the great white throne in Rev 20:11-13? A judgment of those whose names are not written in the Lambs book of life clearly happens here. It is exceedingly clear. This brings into question your conclusion that the rapture and the final judgment of the wicked is simultaneous. It doesn’t disprove or prove post-trib, just is in conflict with your assumption concerning 2:8.



My impressions are that I must continue to study pre/post trib. I’m not convinced. I lean toward post trib, previously largely based on logic. Mathew and Mark certainly add significantly to that weight. I will pursue this issue more once I get some other studies of my plate.


For the record, there’s no reason to be calling anyone evil, corrupt, blind leading blind or anything else concerning pre/mid/post trib. Anyone who engages in such behavior, be pre/mid/or post believer is not operating in love. Anyone. We have been commanded by Christ to love each other. Oh you can justify it all you want and some of you will. But if you really seek God on this, and stop being puffed up, you will see that I am correct in this opinion. I am speaking from the Spirit, not flesh. Pre/Mid/Post is not an eternal salvation issue, it is entirely speculation. We hope, we read, we pray, we assume. But it is all ‘We’ meaning humans. We are imperfect and we cannot see clearly. This nonsense of accusing one another over such a silly separation in doctrine is childish. We all claim to drink more than milk here. Prove it by discussing difficult topics without resorting to childish personal attacks on one another’s salvation and motives.

How dare we call unclean what God has made clean?


I openly invite pre-tribers to post their own thread. I am interested in proving my doctrine.

Thank you for your response broken. Just to clarify my beef with Thaddaeus was not that he is pretrib, but he kept hijacking the thread. I too invite pretribbers to do their own study, but why hijack opthers study.

 

[Thaddaeus]

The first resurrection as you pointed out in this post is after the tribulation, yet the just are resurrected before the rapture. There can be no resurrection of the just before the first resurrection. You have just proven the post trib rapture.

These come out of great tribulation by martyrdom, not by rapture. Moreover if it were by rapture as you claim then that would disprove the pretrib rapture because they couldn't have came out of great tribulation if they were not first in it.

I would not call you an enemy just another lost soul void of truth. I haven't seen you speak the truth to anyone on this forum yet, much less me in this thread. However you have hijacked it twice now and that is not the fruit of a Christian.


P.S. Both the scriptures you gave to prove your point disprove the pretrib rapture ironic huh?

ok first of all, I guess paul would be undone according to the gospel of watchman: for paul also did what he could against false doctrines, even preached to some people about their unknown God and I proved that the first ressurrection in revelation is a seperate event from the taken up of the ones that are asleep in Christ and the one that remain( alive) describe in 1 thes. 4:13-18 here the living and the dead are taken up . Look at the first ressurrection in rev Re 20:4And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.Re 20:5But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
It is all about souls of those that had died in the tribulation, and the rest of the dead was not raised up. it's all dead people, where are the ones that remained alive mentioned here in this event as in 1 Thes. also you have to throw in, like a thief in the night two will be in the fields one taken one left, it didn't say that one would be rasied from the grave and one left. there is a taken up (rapture) where is that here, all the dead that had died for Christ, lives again but the rest of the dead are still in the graves. there is a taken up of both dead and live people in 1 thes:4, one is a ressurrection of the DEAD one is a rapture. also it says to watch for we know not when he cometh, if it is post-trib, people who know their bible will just have to count from the antichrist and when he takes his seat in the jewish temple and when he is revealed then count down to the end of the great tribultaion and know when he will come.

TWO seperate events

 

[MahogonySnail]

Thaddeus are you blind or something?: notice the part in bold:

the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus

They are the souls of Christians who died for their faith during the tribulation. These Christians must have the Holy Spirit. If Christians are on the earth, there is God's church.
So the pre-trib idea of the Holy Spirit and the Church being raptured before the events of the mark of the beast etc, is not correct. The Spirit and Church are very much there through the events.

 

[watchmen]

Thaddeus are you blind or something?: notice the part in bold:

the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus

They are the souls of Christians who died for their faith during the tribulation. These Christians must have the Holy Spirit. If Christians are on the earth, there is God's church.
So the pre-trib idea of the Holy Spirit and the Church being raptured before the events of the mark of the beast etc, is not correct. The Spirit and Church are very much there through the events.

I have explain this very fact to him and others in this thread and others many times, and yes I believe he is blind, willfully so.

 

[sisterren11492]

as I said earlier this is not a teaching thread forum but rather a discussion forum , so post it some where else if you want me to allow the Blind to lead the blind, two seperate events dude one where we as Christian will look forward to, we are even told to comfort one another with this doctrine of a taking up. The last one where all tribes will mourn. 1Thes 4 dealing with just Christains those that have believed, in other words so that maybe even you can understand it 1 thes . 4:13-18 is for the believers only . matt. and the last of rev is for all tribes all nations for the saved ( believers ) and the lost ( unbelievers).

So Again I say TWO SEPERATE EVENTS

Paul does not separate these two events but puts them on the SAME DAY.

2Th 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and [by] our gathering together unto him,
2Th 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

If these are two events on different days or several days, Paul would of said "those days" but he said "THAT DAY" shall not come except there come a falling away first (those departing from the truth) and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition. (Antichrist)

Also please take notice that there are two white horse riders in Revelation. The first rider is the Antichrist (Rev. 6:2) and the second rider is Jesus Christ (Rev. 19:11-13). Again showing us the Antichrist comes first.

 

[Thaddaeus]

Paul does not separate these two events but puts them on the SAME DAY.

2Th 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and [by] our gathering together unto him,
2Th 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

If these are two events on different days or several days, Paul would of said "those days" but he said "THAT DAY" shall not come except there come a falling away first (those departing from the truth) and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition. (Antichrist)

Also please take notice that there are two white horse riders in Revelation. The first rider is the Antichrist (Rev. 6:2) and the second rider is Jesus Christ (Rev. 19:11-13). Again showing us the Antichrist comes first.

ok you guys when Jesus steps out on the clouds and says come up here, you all can tell him that there is no such thing as a rapture, and you wait for the next bus , but as far as me and mine we will go with Him to be with him forever

 

[Lauren]

You have got to be joking. There is a whole other thread you could have posted this post in. No true Christian would be this disrespectful. You have shown your true colors regardless of your stance on the timing of the rapture.

I have never seen anyone on this board question another's salvation more than you do watchmen. It is insecurity or just plain rudeness?

Mark 4:24 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.

Those are some heavy words in that scripture, downright scary to think of its implications. To question someone's relationship with God, that is the weightiest judgement of all. I don't think I'd ever want to tread there purposely, especially when it does nothing to glorify God.

 

[sisterren11492]

ok you guys when Jesus steps out on the clouds and says come up here, you all can tell him that there is no such thing as a rapture, and you wait for the next bus , but as far as me and mine we will go with Him to be with him forever

There are 2 Come Up Hithers in Revelation:

1. Come Up Hither: Rev. 4:1

Rev 4:1 ¶ After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.


John was told to Come Up Hither and shown a VISIONabout heaven but we do not see any coming of the Lord, rapture, resurrection, gathering , etc.


2. Come Up Hither: Rev. 11:12

Rev 11:12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.


We do however see a resurrection, caught up, rapture in this verse because we know the two witnesses who were killed and when a voice says Come Up Hither they stand upon their feet and ASCEND UP TO HEAVEN IN A CLOUD. This is exactly where we are to met the Lord, in the clouds.




1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 26:64 Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.
Mar 13:26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
Mar 14:62 And Jesus said, I am: and ye shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.
Luk 21:27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
Act 1:9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.
Act 1:10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;
Act 1:11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.
Rev 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they [also] which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

 

[watchmen]

I have never seen anyone on this board question another's salvation more than you do watchmen. It is insecurity or just plain rudeness?

Neither, I just tell the truth from the fruits that are displayed.

Matthew 7
17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

I know them by their fruit just a sChrist said I would.

 

[danb]

Watchman, I can see by you posts that you feel very compasionate about the Lord and scripture, but please quit attaching people.
We all have the right to disagree. But, nobody is going to come around to your way of thinking if you insult them.
Our spirit is sapposed to be of love. Please consider this.