Lets try this agin (a post trib study for those learning about the post trib rapture)

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Apr 23, 2009
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#1
Last time I tried this is was crashed by a bunch of disrespectful pretribbers. Maybe this time we can do the study with out the uinteruption.


The first thing I will say is to prove the post trib rapture you only need to show two things in scripture (although I will do much more than that in this post) #1 that the 2nd coming is after the Tribulation, and #2 that the rapture is at the 2nd coming. (side note: the resurrection of the just is also at the post trib 2nd coming of Christ yet before the rapture this is important to know as we move on)

So #1 The 2nd coming is after the tribulation
Matthew 24:29-31
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of heaven shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds from one end of heaven to the other.
There is no mistaking, the meaning of this verse, nor can you mistake when it will take place. The coming of the Son of man is immediately after the tribulation of those day. Just to show that this is the Great Tribulation and just one tribulation of many lets start the text at verse 21 and read through verse 31.
Matthew 24:21-31
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22 And except those days be shortened, there shall no flesh be saved: but for the elects sake those days shall be shortened.
23 then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
25 Behold, I have told you before.
26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
27 For as lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall the coming of the Son of man be.
28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of heaven shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds from one end of heaven to the other.
There is no doubt that this is referring to The Great Tribulation and not just a tribulation. We also see that it is after the tribulation that Jesus returns. We also see that there is a gathering together of the elect at this point. Some argue that this is the Jewish elect not the church, but we have already shown the deception behind this teaching. Others argue that they are gathered from Heaven and not from Earth because they were raptured seven years earlier before the tribulation started. So I will now show in Mark 13:24-27, the sister scripture to Matthew 24:29-31 that they not only gathered from Heaven, but from Heaven and Earth.
Mark 13:24-27
24 But in those days, after this tribulation, the sun will be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light.
25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.
26 And they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
27 And then he shall send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.
So we see that Jesus gathers the elect from Heaven and Earth at the end of the tribulation from Heaven'' the dead in Christ'' from Earth '' those that are still living''. We also see that this is the Great Tribulation not a tribulation as verse 19 shows
Mark 13:19 For in those day there shall be affliction, such as was not from the beginning of creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be.
We can make the case from these scriptures that the resurrection of the just, and the rapture is after the tribulation. However that is not the point I am using them to make. The point is the second coming of Christ is after the Great Tribulation, and biblically you can clearly see that this is the case. Now I will show you that the rapture is at this post trib second coming.

#2 The rapture is at the 2nd coming of Christ (which per point 1 is post trib.
1st Thessalonians 4:15-17
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend with a shout, with the voice of an arch angel, and with the trump of God: and the dead will rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall ever be with the Lord.
There are two main things I would like you to notice about this verse. First that the dead in Christ rise first. This is important because, there will be scripture use later that speaks of the resurrection of the just happening at the second coming, and we need to realize that the living will not precede the dead but will be caught up after them. So if the resurrection of the just is post trib then the rapture would be as well. Secondly I will give you the timing of this event that all agree is the rapture.
Verse 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
The rapture takes place at the coming of the Lord, which we have already shown is after the tribulation. I could stop right now this is all the proof we need, but I have more. By the way, some thing for you to notice if a pretrib teacher ever teaches on the rapture they will skip verse 15 and quote verse 16 and 17 only. Is this open deception or an over sight? I will let you decide.
 
1st Corinthians 15:20-23
20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward that they are Christ's at his coming.
We will all be resurrected and there will be an order. Jesus is first, that has already happen, and then those that are Christ's, those that have been saved (Christians) at His coming. There is no mention of a resurrection of the righteous between Jesus' resurrection and his second coming. As a matter of fact it says that those that belong to Christ will be resurrection at the post trib second coming. We saw in 1st Thessalonians that the dead are raised before the living are raptured. So if the resurrection of the dead in Christ is at the post trib second coming then the rapture has to be as well.
 
2nd Thessalonians 2:1-3
1 Now we beseech you, bretheren. by the coming of the Lord and by our gathering together unto him,
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled in spirit, nor by word, nor by letter from us, and the day of Christ is at hand.
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there be a falling away first, and the man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition.
In verse 1 Paul is speaking of two events. the coming of the Lord or '' The second coming'' and the gathering together unto him or '' the resurrection of the just and or rapture''. In verse 3 we see that Paul says these two event happen on a singular day ''That day''. Also in verse 3 Paul writes that that day could not happen until after the falling away takes place and the anti christ is revealed. Some pretrib preachers go as far as to say the falling away is the rapture, teaching that the rapture must come before the second coming. However the greek word for falling away is ''apostasia'', which literally means a turning from the truth. So the church itself will turn from the truth and then the anti christ will be revealed and then the rapture can take place, not before. This passage excludes the pretrib view because we know that the anti christ will not be revealed before the tribulation starts. Further more it proves the post trib view because it declares that the second coming and the rapture take place on the same day. These two events are not seven years apart, not three and a half years apart, not one year, one month or one day apart. They occur on the same exact day.
 
1st John 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is.
When does Christ appear? At his post trib second coming. When shall we be like him? When we receive our heavenly bodies, which is at the resurrection of the just and or the rapture. So this verse actually says that we will be resurrected and or raptured to receive our heavenly immortal bodies at the post trib second coming.
 
I think the scriptural evidence of a post trib rapture that I have presented so far is overwhelming.


As I said this is more than enough proof for the post trib rapture, yet I will continue in my next post to show that there is no ambiguity to what the Bible tells us about the timmi9ng of the rapture
 
Apr 23, 2009
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In my last post I showed that #1 the 2nd coming is after the tribulation, and #2 that the rapture is at trhe 2nd coming proving that the rapture is after the Tribulation as well, Now I will give scripture that shows the rapture is at the at the end, on the last day at the last trump.

Real quickly I will give three verses that state that we must endure until the very end to be saved.
Matthew 24:12-13, Mark 13:13, and Revelation 2:26.
Matthew 24:12-13
12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
Mark 13:13 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.Both of these passages say he that endures unto the end, shall be saved. Some teach that this means you must keep your faith until your death to get to heaven. Actually if you will notice, both of these passage are in chapters that are specifically explaining the events of the tribulation. In Matthew it says that iniquity will abound. In Mark it says we will be hated by all men for Christ's name sake. What these verse are telling us is that only those that do not turn from Christ during the tribulation will be saved. Those of us that endure until the very in shall be saved.
Revelation 2:26 And he that overcometh, and keeps my works until the end, to him will I give power over the nations:
It is only those that keep God's holy word until the very end that will reign with Christ during the Millennium. We must endure until the end show let me show you want the end is.
1st Thessalonians 3:13 To the end he may stabblish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints.
Notice when the end is, when Jesus returns. Also notice that it says Jesus will return with all His saints. This is impossible with a pretrib view. If Jesus raptures the righteous before the tribulation then return at the end of it with the raptured saints. The tribulational converts and ''Jewish saints'' would not be with Him. Therefore He would not be returning with all His saints. Although if He catches us up the righteous as he is returning with the dead in Christ as it say He will in 1st Thessalonians 4:14-17, to meet Him in the air, then come to earth with Him. He would be returning with all His saints.
1st Thessalonians 4:14-17
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them that sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend with a shout, with the voice of an arch angel, and with the trump of God: and the dead will rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall ever be with the Lord.
Verse 14 says that the dead in Christ are returning from heaven with Christ, and in verse 16 we see as He is returning their bodied rise from the grave to meet their souls, we know from 1st Corinthians 15:51-53 that this is when they receive their immortal bodies. Then we which are alive and remain are caught up to meet them in the air. The post trib view is the only view that would allow 1st Thessalonians 3:13 to be true (which we know it is because it is the word of God) after we are caught up, we immediately return from the air to earth with Christ. Then and only then would He be returning will all His saints.

We will be raised at the last day John 6:39, 40, 44, and 54
John 6:39, 40, 44 , and 54
39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should loose nothing, but raise it up at the last day.
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
54 Whosoever eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.
Jesus repeatedly declares that He will raise us up at the last day. Not seven years before, not three and a half years before, not one year, one month , or one day before, but at the last day.
 
At the last trump,
1st Corinthians 15:51-53
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; we shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in a twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
It is universally understood that this is referring to the event known as the rapture. We see in the passage that it tell us when it will happen ''at the last trump''. We also see in Matthew 24:29-31 that there will be a trumpet sounded after the tribulation has ended.
Matthew 24:29-31
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of heaven shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds from one end of heaven to the other.
If the rapture is at the last trump, which we know it is because God's word says it does. Then the rapture can not be before the trumpet sounded in Matthew 24, which is sounded after the tribulation is over.
 
Apr 23, 2009
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#3
Next I will show two more things #1 that the wicked are destroyed by fire at the post trib 2nd coming of Christ, and #2 that the rapture is on the same day that Christ return at the end of the Tribulation to destroy the wicked.

#1 The destruction of the wicked by fire at the post trib 2nd coming.
Matthew 3:7-12
7 But when he
( John the Baptist) saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?
8 Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance:
9 And think not to say within yourselves, we have Abraham as our father: for I say unto you that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.
10 And now also the ax is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree that brings forth not good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire
11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he will baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire.
12 Whose fan is in his hand, he shall throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into his garner, but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.
There is only three times in the New Testament that the phrase ''wrath to come'' is mentioned. Once in 1st Thessalonians 1:10, once here in Matthew 3:7 and in Luke 3:7 which is telling the same story about John the Baptist warning the masses of the wrath that is to come. So what is the ''wrath to come'' that he was warning them from? It is the purging of the floor mentioned in verse 12. It is the baptism of fire when the wicked will be overwhelmed by fire at the return of Jesus, it is the burning of the chaff which will occur when Jesus returns at the post trib second coming. The wrath to come that Jesus has delivered us from by his death and resurrection, is the destruction of the wicked by fire at the second coming of Christ.
 
1st Thessalonians 5:2-3
2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
3 For when they shall say, peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
The destruction of the wicked is not a prolonged seven years period, but it is sudden destruction that will come upon them when Jesus returns at the post trib second coming.
 
2nd Thessalonians 2:8 And then shall that wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the Spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming.
When Jesus returns He is coming in power and great glory, the tribes of the earth shall mourn and every one that is not in Christ including the anti christ will be destroyed immediately by the brightness of His coming.
 
Hebrews 10:26-27
26 For if we willfully sin after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation that shall devour the adversaries.
The wrath to come is the judgment of God were He will destroy all His adversaries with a fiery indignation, when Jesus returns, not the entire tribulation period.
 
2nd Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burnt up.
This doesn't sound like a pretrib event, there wouldn't be anything left to live on earth for the next seven years. The day of the Lord is a post tribulational event. Where Jesus will destroy all with fire, but first he will resurrect the dead in Christ and catch away the living saints.
 
I have shown that the wrath is the fiery destruction of the wicked which occurs at the return of Christ. It is not the tribulation period itself. Next, I will give scripture that shows that the second coming, the resurrection of the just, the rapture of the living saints and the destruction of the wicked by fire happen all at once.

#2 The rapture is at the post rib 2nd coming on the same day Christ return to deatroy the wicked.
Pretrib ''Theologians'' boldly proclaim that when ever the second coming is mentioned, there is no mention of the church being raptured, and when ever the rapture is mentioned there is no mention of the destruction of the wicked. Well, I have four passages of scripture that will eliminate that myth once and for all. The first text I will use is Matthew 3:12, I will revisit the words of John the baptist.
Matthew 3:12 Whose fan is in his hand, he shall throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into his garner, but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.
Notice that when Jesus comes to purge His floor, He first gathers the wheat and then burns the chaff. This is what will occur at the second coming. When Jesus returns at the end of the tribulation, He will resurrect the just, rapture the saints, and then burn the wicked with an unquenchable fire.
 
Matthew 24:37-41
37 But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
38 For as in the days before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving into marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark,
39 And knew not until the flood came and took them all away, so shall the coming of the Son of man be.
40 Then shall two be in the field one taken, and the other left.
41 Two woman shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken and the other left.
The flood came and took them away when they were unaware, so will the coming of Christ be, but this next flood will be a flood of fire. At this point, at the post trib second coming when Jesus is returning to destroy the wicked is when the rapture takes place. Verse 40 and 41 declare THEN will one be taken and the other left, not before the return of Christ, but at it.
 
Luke 17:26-30
26 And as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, and they were given into marriage, until Noah entered into the ark then the flood came and destroyed them all.
The very day Noah entered the ark the flood came and destroyed them all, once again it was not a seven year prolonged period of destruction but it was immediate, the very day the righteous were removed.
28 Likewise also as it was in the day of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;
29 But THE SAME DAY that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone down from heaven and destroyed them all.
30 Even thus shall it be in the day the Son of man shall be revealed.
It very clear the SAME DAY Noah went on the ark the flood came and destroyed them all. The SAME DAY Lot was taken, out of Sodom fire and brimstone rain from heaven and destroyed them all. The text says this is exactly how it will be when Jesus returns. The very SAME DAY Jesus returns at His post trib second coming is the very SAME DAY we will be taken out or '' raptured '' and it is the very SAME DAY He will destroy the wicked. This will be confirmed in my next text 2nd Thessalonins 1:6-10 as well.
 
2nd Thessalonians 1:6-10
6 Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation on them that trouble you;
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe ( because our testimony among you was believed ) in that day.
We receive our rest when Jesus is revealed with his mighty angels in flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God. In other words we are raptured at the post trib second coming when Jesus returns to destroy the wicked with fire. Lets look at verse 7 and 8 again.
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
There is no question that this passage places the post trib second coming, the rapture of the saints, and the destruction of the wicked all at the very same time. The pretib ''Theologian'' that claims the Bible never says as much, must of missed this passage. We cannot ignore God's word, so I choose to ignore the pretrib ''Theologian''.
 
Apr 23, 2009
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Lastly I will give a reference in Revelation 20:4-6 that tells us that the rautre is after the Tribulation (remember the resurrection of the just comes before rapture of the living saints). In Revelation 20:4-6 it shows us the the 1st resurrection the resurrection of the just is after the Tribulation because it include those that were martyred during the Tribulation.
Revelation 20:4-6
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshiped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands,; and they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousands years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
The first resurrection is after the tribulation, we know this because it includes the tribulational martyrs. There can be no resurrection before the first resurrection, therefore there can not be a mass resurrection of the dead in Christ before the tribulation. Seeing that the first resurrection takes place at the end of the tribulation, the pretrib rapture along with the mid trib, and pre wrath rapture become biblically impossible. The only view that fits is that of a post trib rapture. The first resurrection is the resurrection of the just and the rapture immediately proceeds it.




This thread is for post tribbers to discuss the post trib rapture with those trying to learn why it is taught. I would love to field any questions. If you want to debate the idea of the post trib scripture, we have a debate thread running it is called ''scriptures that prove the post trib rapture''. Please respect this thread and take your debate to that thread, Thanks
 
Aug 25, 2009
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im not sure where my question should be posted, but i ask this. what makes u think that the events described in Revelations did not already happen, around the first century? and how do u know who it was that actually wrote it, and what makes it vaild? surely you do not consider it as fact, merely because it appears in your bible?
 
Apr 23, 2009
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maybe you should start a new thread and pose that question?
 
Jan 31, 2009
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This thread is for post tribbers to discuss the post trib rapture with those trying to learn why it is taught. I would love to field any questions. If you want to debate the idea of the post trib scripture, we have a debate thread running it is called ''scriptures that prove the post trib rapture''. Please respect this thread and take your debate to that thread, Thanks
as I said earlier this is not a teaching thread forum but rather a discussion forum , so post it some where else if you want me to allow the Blind to lead the blind, two seperate events dude one where we as Christian will look forward to, we are even told to comfort one another with this doctrine of a taking up. The last one where all tribes will mourn. 1Thes 4 dealing with just Christains those that have believed, in other words so that maybe even you can understand it 1 thes . 4:13-18 is for the believers only . matt. and the last of rev is for all tribes all nations for the saved ( believers ) and the lost ( unbelievers).

So Again I say TWO SEPERATE EVENTS
 
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Young_Gideon

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#8
amen Thaddaeus, keep posting the truth.
 
Apr 23, 2009
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as I said earlier this is not a teaching thread forum but rather a discussion forum , so post it some where else if you want me to allow you to lead the blind, two seperate events dude one where we as Christian will look forward to, we are even told to comfort one another with this doctrine of a taking up. The last one where all tribes will mourn. 1Thes 4 dealing with just Christains those that have believed, in other words so that maybe even you can understand it i thes . 4:13-18 is for the believers only . matt. and the last of rev is for all tribes all nations for saved and the lost .

So Again I say TWO SEPERATE EVENTS
You have got to be joking. There is a whole other thread you could have posted this post in. No true Christian would be this disrespectful. You have shown your true colors regardless of your stance on the timing of the rapture.
 
Apr 23, 2009
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amen Thaddaeus, keep posting the truth.
Thaddaeus is deceived and a deceiver. I have proven that the same day the world morns is the same day we will rejoice not two separate event with scripture, yet he continues to speak lies, and do so in blatant disrespect for those who would like to discuss truth. There is a seaprate thread if you want to debate.

Luke 17:26-30
26 And as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, and they were given into marriage, until Noah entered into the ark then the flood came and destroyed them all.
The very day Noah entered the ark the flood came and destroyed them all, once again it was not a seven year prolonged period of destruction but it was immediate, the very day the righteous were removed.
28 Likewise also as it was in the day of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;
29 But THE SAME DAY that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone down from heaven and destroyed them all.
30 Even thus shall it be in the day the Son of man shall be revealed.
It very clear the SAME DAY Noah went on the ark the flood came and destroyed them all. The SAME DAY Lot was taken, out of Sodom fire and brimstone rain from heaven and destroyed them all. The text says this is exactly how it will be when Jesus returns. The very SAME DAY Jesus returns at His post trib second coming is the very SAME DAY we will be taken out or '' raptured '' and it is the very SAME DAY He will destroy the wicked. This will be confirmed in my next text 2nd Thessalonins 1:6-10 as well.
 
2nd Thessalonians 1:6-10
6 Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation on them that trouble you;
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe ( because our testimony among you was believed ) in that day.
We receive our rest when Jesus is revealed with his mighty angels in flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God. In other words we are raptured at the post trib second coming when Jesus returns to destroy the wicked with fire. Lets look at verse 7 and 8 again.
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
There is no question that this passage places the post trib second coming, the rapture of the saints, and the destruction of the wicked all at the very same time. The pretib ''Theologian'' that claims the Bible never says as much, must of missed this passage. We cannot ignore God's word, so I choose to ignore the pretrib ''Theologian''.



The wicked mourn the same day we rejoice. Not two separate events according to scripture atleast. I do not know what you or Thaddaeus go by, but not scripture.
 
Jan 31, 2009
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#11
You have got to be joking. There is a whole other thread you could have posted this post in. No true Christian would be this disrespectful. You have shown your true colors regardless of your stance on the timing of the rapture.
I put God and His true Word before any man, I serve God Not you, would you think it better that I obey you or obey God, for He has said to preach the truth ,and I did post it in the other thread also
 
Apr 23, 2009
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#12
You are no Christian, no Christian would disrespect another brother as you have. youignore the truth, you do not preach it.
 
Jan 31, 2009
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#13




The wicked mourn the same day we rejoice. Not two separate events according to scripture atleast. I do not know what you or Thaddaeus go by, but not scripture.
Re 20:13And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.Re 20:14And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Re 20:15And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
there were both raised on the last days the tribulation saints and the lost , in 1 thes. 4 only those that believed were taken up.

TWO SEPERATE EVENTS
 
Apr 23, 2009
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#14
Re 20:13And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.Re 20:14And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Re 20:15And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
there were both raised on the last days the tribulation saints and the lost , in 1 thes. 4 only those that believed were taken up.

TWO SEPERATE EVENTS
Revelation 20 has nothing to do with the 2nd coming this is after the Millennium. Like I said you have no idea what the truth is. You call yourself a pastor? I feel sorry for your congregation they must be swirling in false doctrines, because you certainly are. Moreover you have shown yourself to be no Christian by you blatant disrespect of the O.P.
 
Jan 8, 2009
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#15
No christian including pastors are perfect Watchmen. I don't think we can judge a person's relationship with Christ based upon their behaviour. I think you can cool it down a bit hey?

Although based on past discussions I believe Thaddeus as a pastor does need a good dose of sound theology from a reliable theological college (as we all do) - he is not to blame. We should point the finger at Darby and the brethren and others for introducing pre-trib false doctrine into the church in the 1800's, the left behind series and various books written on the subject that added yet another flavour of doctrine, hey, I personally prefer to stick mostly with what the reformers believed or that era. But if some want to believe they'll be raptured before the tribulation, doesn't worry me they will find out when the time comes when they don't have enough cans of baked beans and need a verichip to pay for food. :D
 
Jan 31, 2009
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#16
Revelation 20 has nothing to do with the 2nd coming this is after the Millennium. Like I said you have no idea what the truth is. You call yourself a pastor? I feel sorry for your congregation they must be swirling in false doctrines, because you certainly are. Moreover you have shown yourself to be no Christian by you blatant disrespect of the O.P.

I have never judged you as to be or not to be a Christian and you Know how to be a better Christain than who, when did God die and make you Judge Mr. watchman, the first resurrection is pretaining to only the great tribulations saints the ones that refused the mark of the beast.
Re 20:4And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.Re 20:5But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.


Re 7:14And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
and even at this I thes, says that some didn't taste death those that remain were also taken up here in rev 20 these were the souls of those that had died, TWO SEPERATE EVENTS

Ga 4:16Am I therefore become your enemy, because I tell you the truth?
 
Apr 23, 2009
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#17
No christian including pastors are perfect Watchmen. I don't think we can judge a person's relationship with Christ based upon their behaviour. I think you can cool it down a bit hey?

Although based on past discussions I believe Thaddeus as a pastor does need a good dose of sound theology from a reliable theological college (as we all do) - he is not to blame. We should point the finger at Darby and the brethren and others for introducing pre-trib false doctrine into the church in the 1800's, the left behind series and various books written on the subject that added yet another flavour of doctrine, hey, I personally prefer to stick mostly with what the reformers believed or that era. But if some want to believe they'll be raptured before the tribulation, doesn't worry me they will find out when the time comes when they don't have enough cans of baked beans and need a verichip to pay for food. :D
Regardless of his stance on the pretrib rapture and other false doctrines he promotes, his fruit shows he is not in Christ.

I am not his judge but I can see his fruit
 
Aug 25, 2009
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#18
um, i still have not had my questions on this answered.
 
Jan 8, 2009
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#19
Asmodeus I'm partial preterist myself. It would make no sense for at least some of Revelation to have already come to pass.
 
Apr 23, 2009
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#20
um, i still have not had my questions on this answered.
The question is off topic, maybe you could start a thread, I am sure mahogony and others would love to discuss that with you.
 
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