Nachash (Genesis 3) - Serpent or Shiny One?

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Tintin

Guest
#21
Exactly, Rachel! It's like 'Tail like a cedar tree'? Have they ever seen a hippo or elephant? They have piddly tails. Also, the Leviathan. Many regard it to be a crocodile but that's a bit lame - also, do they breathe fire? Even if the references to these two beasts do recall mythological creatures from the period (in which they most certainly did) that's not to say that they were any less of a reality in Job's time! It wouldn't be the first time the Bible has used a combination of mythological and every day terms to communicate His Truth.

I blame the KJV for starting it all, 'river-horse', indeed! :(
 
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HEIsRiSen

Senior Member
Feb 4, 2013
487
11
0
#22
Shiny One, interesting stuff.

I believe that the behemoth referred to in Job is speaking of a dinosaur.
 
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Tintin

Guest
#23
Yes, most likely a Diplodocus-like beast. Possibly a Triceratops-like creature.

Job 40:15-24 (NRSV)

[SUP]15 [/SUP]“Look at Behemoth,
which I made just as I made you;
it eats grass like an ox.
[SUP]16 [/SUP]Its strength is in its loins,
and its power in the muscles of its belly.
[SUP]17 [/SUP]It makes its tail stiff like a cedar;
the sinews of its thighs are knit together.
[SUP]18 [/SUP]Its bones are tubes of bronze,
its limbs like bars of iron.
[SUP]19 [/SUP]“It is the first of the great acts of God—
only its Maker can approach it with the sword.
[SUP]20 [/SUP]For the mountains yield food for it
where all the wild animals play.
[SUP]21 [/SUP]Under the lotus plants it lies,
in the covert of the reeds and in the marsh.
[SUP]22 [/SUP]The lotus trees cover it for shade;
the willows of the wadi surround it.
[SUP]23 [/SUP]Even if the river is turbulent, it is not frightened;
it is confident though Jordan rushes against its mouth.
[SUP]24 [/SUP]Can one take it with hooks
or pierce its nose with a snare?
 
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Tintin

Guest
#25
Thanks, Tribesman. Kenisyes actually refuted that article on Page 1. Still, it's interesting. :)
 

rachelsedge

Senior Member
Oct 15, 2012
3,659
79
48
33
#26
Yes, most likely a Diplodocus-like beast. Possibly a Triceratops-like creature.

Job 40:15-24 (NRSV)

[SUP]15 [/SUP]“Look at Behemoth,
which I made just as I made you;
it eats grass like an ox.
[SUP]16 [/SUP]Its strength is in its loins,
and its power in the muscles of its belly.
[SUP]17 [/SUP]It makes its tail stiff like a cedar;
the sinews of its thighs are knit together.
[SUP]18 [/SUP]Its bones are tubes of bronze,
its limbs like bars of iron.
[SUP]19 [/SUP]“It is the first of the great acts of God—
only its Maker can approach it with the sword.
[SUP]20 [/SUP]For the mountains yield food for it
where all the wild animals play.
[SUP]21 [/SUP]Under the lotus plants it lies,
in the covert of the reeds and in the marsh.
[SUP]22 [/SUP]The lotus trees cover it for shade;
the willows of the wadi surround it.
[SUP]23 [/SUP]Even if the river is turbulent, it is not frightened;
it is confident though Jordan rushes against its mouth.
[SUP]24 [/SUP]Can one take it with hooks
or pierce its nose with a snare?
Well, clearly it's a hippo since it lives in the mountains!

Oh wait...
 
K

kenisyes

Guest
#27
Found another interesting article.
http://Found another interesting ar...iny one'? A serpent is so much more ordinary.

Still, if there is any truth to the claim, why haven't any of the English translators translated it as 'shiny one'? A serpent is so much more ordinary. :)
Guess it might be one of those Behemoth things (a hippo or elephant? Don't make me laugh!)
Note the feminine plural: behem-oth. That makes it the abstract. Behemah (Strongs 929) is a "beast". The plural is "mammalian life". Nothing special about it. Strongs 930 says it is from the Egyptian. I have not been able to find any reference in Budge's dictionary, and he docemented a lot of comparative Christian Egyptology. His is also the only dictionary that Strong could have used. It was definitive in the 1890's until Gardiner in the 1920's.
 
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Ariel82

Guest
#28
Revelation 12:9 So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
 

JGPS

Banned
Jan 11, 2013
629
0
0
#29
2Live:

Isiah 14:12 is clearly talking about the king of Babylon, he is a adversary, not The Adversary, he's just a powerful human who is full of pride.

Given the word for shining one is here, and totally unrelated to the word serpent in any way, shape, or form, this reference only casts more doubt on the 'shining one theory'...

Oh never mind, context probably doesn't matter to you 2live.



Anyway, I see where the shining one logical leap comes from now. It explains a great deal.
 
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jackdove

Guest
#30
GRACE REQUIRES CONDITIONS
Mostprofessing “ Christians” and many teachings of what is called “traditionalChristianity” say there are no conditions, nothing that we must do to receiveGods glorious grace. They deny that God requires obedience to His law! They twist the truth around by saying thatwould be earning ones salvation! They do demand it of God, while they stillrebel against His law and refuse to keep it!
Think wherethat would lead! Understand this! Eternal life is , indeed, Gods free gift. Youcan earn it! But it is not your right! You cannot demand it of God as yourright, while you defy God, rebel against His government, refuse to let Him ruleyour life His way!
ThereforeGod has imposed CONDITIONS! Those conditions do not earn you a thing. But Godgives His Holy Spirit to those who obey Him(Acts 5:32) He does not pay it- butthe passage speaks of the Holy Spirit which “God hath given to them that obeyHim.” It is still a free GIFT.
A rich manmight have seven men standing before him, and say, “ I will give, as my freegift of Rs 10000 to any or all of you who will step forward to receive it.”Their stepping forward does not EARN it. It is merely the condition required toreceive the free GIFT.
The word“GRACE” means unmerited, undeserved pardon! God pardons those who REPENT! And “repent” means to turn from rebellion,hostility, disobedience. “Repent” ,means to turn to obedience to Gods law. Thefact that God chooses not to give this wonderful gift- this gift ofimmortality, which carries with it divine power- to those who would misuse itfor harm and evil; the fact that He chooses to give it only to those who willrightly use it- does not mean it comes by works instead of grace. If there wereno conditions, then everyone could demand it, and it would be received as aright by birth, instead of by grace.
The veryfact of grace makes necessary Gods required qualifications. But it still is anundeserved GIFT! Obedience does not earn anything-that is only what we owe God.A birthright requires no qualification. It is a right by birth.
 
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Tintin

Guest
#31
Jackdove, I think you posted this in the wrong thread. It has no relevance to what we're discussing.

Ariel, Revelation is true but it's written in the apocalyptic prophetic style of the time. "Dragon" could be real, could be metaphorical, could be both. We don't know.
 
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webchatter

Guest
#33
Tintin, I recently told a friend of mine that I believe someone could spend an entire month studying Gen. 3:15. ("And I will put enmity between...")
I had never heard "shiny one" til now. My concordance says as previously posted, "a snake from it's whisper, hiss, majic spell, enchanter,diligently observe". Even without the outside info of snake, it is obvious from the Bible alone that this creature Eve was speaking to, convinced her to disobey God.Then she convinced Adam. A human can also convince us to disobey God.
My reasoning for studying these verses, (as you, I found it hard to believe it was referring to a snake), was because of my study in end time prophecies. It was made so clear to me that if I wanted to KNOW the full aspect of Biblical meaning in end time prophecy, that I needed to go back to the beginning of humanity on earth, to understand the end of humanity's time on earth. The Bible comes full circle. beginning to end. It was made clear by my own reasoning, no human suggested such.
It doesn't matter, in interpretation or understanding to me, what type of creature this was. I don't believe in evolution as they describe how it works, but interestingly enough, proponents of evolution say snakes used to have legs. Dragons today have legs. I believe the Millenial kingdom will be similar to the garden of Eden wherein the animals dwelled peacably with humans & vice versa. The animals were friendly before Eve ate the apple. Maybe the snake did talk & it wasn't unusual to Adam & Eve because they hadn't been there long enough to even have children yet? Some people are more gullible than others. How unusual would it be, or how ASTOUNDING would it be to see God walk around our house & talk face to face with HIM? So "unusual" probably wasn't in their vocabulary. Later, people didn't find the Nephilim unusual either!!

After witnessing God Himself, nothing would be unusual, a talking snake or reptile would be a breeze to accept. In fact, evolutionists make have given us Biblical archaeological evidence to support that God removed the snake's legs. One pastor said that the snake today is a constant reminder of the fall of man, original sin, & our necessity to "not be decieved" as Adam & Eve were, even though they were face to face with God, they still believed the serpent.
As for Gen 3:15, The "her seed" is Jesus Christ, which most Christians agree on. "...thy seed" is satan's seed as God is talking to the serpent/satan. So some take that to mean that Eve got pregnant by the serpent or satan & that was Cain resulting=satan's seed. Is there Scripture to support this theory? The aforementioned verse about "not counting Cain" etc etc. It's possible a child could have died. Noah was Eve's seed, & not Adam's? After the flood, there should be no more serpent seed if Cain was the serpent seed & if Noah was not serpent seed. However, Nephilim were found after the flood, which could only mean that serpent seed was not "a descendant of Cain".
 
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webchatter

Guest
#34
Snake, serpent, angel of light, celestial being, doesn't matter to me, I know WHO was behind the deception in the beginning of Genesis. Satan was behind it, but in what physical form he took in the garden of Eden is irrelevant to me, I understand what Scripture is conveying. I can see it occuring in any of those physical forms.
However, I don't believe God created a previous race of man before Adam & Eve. I see no evidence in Genesis for that, as one link said. God doesn't need to practice something 1st, in order to eventually get it right. He is perfect.
Gen 3:15 says that her seed, (Jesus), shall bruise the serpent's/satan's head, and that the serpent/satan shall bruise HIS heel.(the Lord's last generation of Christians= His heel).Bruise= crush , break or overwhelm. Heel= the rear of an army, or it can also mean "last". Both will work. We will be in Christ's army in the end, & we will crush/overwhelm satan, while satan over whelms or crushes Jesus' last generations of Christians.
Note that when looking up the definition in Strong's concordance for this verse's use of the word "bruise", the reference number was # 7779. Anyone care to explain this #'s significance, (better than I could do plz.) thanks. MY suspicion that these verses were in correlation to end time prophecy confirmed by God's number for completion.
 
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Tintin

Guest
#35
Thanks webchatter, I understand that my question isn't of great importance, I just find this particular topic (and others) interesting to learn about and discuss with others. Also, I never mentioned that I believed there were beings created before Eve (ala Lilith from Jewish mythology). Still, does anyone know when the angels were created? It had to be at some point before Adam and Eve!
 
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kenisyes

Guest
#36
Thanks webchatter, I understand that my question isn't of great importance, I just find this particular topic (and others) interesting to learn about and discuss with others. Also, I never mentioned that I believed there were beings created before Eve (ala Lilith from Jewish mythology). Still, does anyone know when the angels were created? It had to be at some point before Adam and Eve!
Many Jews say Adam and Eve, (and Lilith) as well as everyone before Enosh were archetypes, not people as we know them. The Hebrew is consistent with this interpretation. Before Enosh, there was no time, and hence no "before".
 
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Tintin

Guest
#37
Hmm... I've heard of this belief before but it confuses me. How do archetypes rebel against God by eating of a forbidden tree and then be kicked out of the Garden of Eden etc.? Is this archetype collective humanity or something else? Could you please explain further your meaning? Also, I find it difficult to believe because everything I've read about Genesis talks of the creation, Adam and Eve etc. as being written in the form of a Hebrew poetic but historical narrative. Thanks
 
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kenisyes

Guest
#38
I'd rather not commit to a specific belief. In Gen. 1, God "bara" or "gives meaning and form to", whereas in Gen. 2, He "asher" or "finishes" creation. If you check the Hebrew at the end of Jonah, you see that "adam" is a plural noun. So, Gen. 1 is speaking of humanity and its purpose. The Garden is thus a symbol of a mental state, and the trees are different thoughts we can engage in. There's also a thing with Hebrew verbs we cannot appreciate. What we call fantasy in such a case, is just as real in its own way as the world we live in now, and the Hebrew verbs say so, where as ours do not. In fact, from God's perspective, our purpose is more real than our physical bodies. This is all very difficult to say in writing. It's like, you sort of have to realize that there is a reality we can't talk about because the people who invented our language did not make up words for it. That's why everything you read is confusing. It's like trying to explain a rainbow to a blindman. It's also why I am afraid to try to write too much. The Jews themselves had a rule against preaching Gen. 1 in open congregation, because it confused too many people.

Ginzberg's "Legends of the Jews" is freely available online. Try reading some of that to reorient your thinking.
 
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LauraDean

Guest
#39
The Bible speaks of Pterosaurs (Fiery flying serpents),as does the book of Mormon and the historian Herodotus.Modern Pterodactyls or Ropens have shining bioluminescence,like an Australian barn owl does.This could possibly be an explanation? Jonathan David Whitcomb has written some non-fiction books about this subject and there is a group on Facebook dedicated to exploring these things (Live Pterosaurs of the World).Isaiah 14:29,30:6.....Deut 8:15,Num 21:6-8 and the book of 1 Nephi 17:41 in the book of Mormon.And the historian Herodotus described them.
 
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Tintin

Guest
#40
The Bible speaks of Pterosaurs (Fiery flying serpents),as does the book of Mormon and the historian Herodotus.Modern Pterodactyls or Ropens have shining bioluminescence,like an Australian barn owl does.This could possibly be an explanation? Jonathan David Whitcomb has written some non-fiction books about this subject and there is a group on Facebook dedicated to exploring these things (Live Pterosaurs of the World).Isaiah 14:29,30:6.....Deut 8:15,Num 21:6-8 and the book of 1 Nephi 17:41 in the book of Mormon.And the historian Herodotus described them.
I'd trust the historian Herodotus over the Book of Mormon. The latter was written in what the 1800's? Hardly ancient records. I do believe the Bible speaks of so-called "prehistoric creatures", but I wouldn't give the Book of Mormon the time of day. It's a book of false teaching and a plagiarist's paradise.