Nachash (Genesis 3) - Serpent or Shiny One?

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N

nathan3

Guest
#41
Revelation 12:9 ; Ezekiel 28 KJV < .
 
K

Karraster

Guest
#42
One thing we can be certain, the adversary will try every trick possible to deceive.

Curious that so called "aliens" are sometimes referred to as "shining ones".
 
Mar 21, 2011
1,515
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#43
Interesting. From my wider religious studies, 'Shining one' shows up a bit.
Ancient Europeans used it to describes their Gods.
Hindus called their Gods 'Devas', or translated 'shining ones'.
I suspect this is the 'look' of an angel.
They say a lot of the ancient pagans worshipped the angels as their Gods?
 

TheAristocat

Senior Member
Oct 4, 2011
2,150
26
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#44
Having grown up in a Christian household, I'd always seen the serpent in Genesis 3 as being something similar to a snake. Later in my teens, I viewed it as possibly a lizard-like creature, based on the verse where the Lord curses it by making it crawl on it's belly. Once again, my understanding has changed. Recently, I've discovered (from reading numerous articles) that the Hebrew word for 'snake' is the same as the word for 'shiny one' - "Nachash". I found this incredibly interesting but I'm not sure what to make of it and whether or not to take the theory seriously. On one hand, most people seem to accept the serpent in Genesis as being a snake, on the other, this theory sounds quite plausible (and more interesting). First of all, the Father of Lies (the Adversary) is sometimes described as a fallen angel of light. Secondly, by my reckoning, it's more plausible for Adam and Eve to be tempted by a being a light (as was Joseph Smith - the Mormon conman) than by a talking snake, since the serpent would have to be possessed by the Adversary and the Bible makes no mention of this (to be fair, there's a lot the Bible doesn't mention). Surely, if no other animal in the Garden talked, Adam and Eve would've questioned their situation the moment the serpent first opened it's mouth! I understand that the Bible tells us precious little about this "nachash". I'm just curious to hear what others think about this revelation.

Is there any truth to the claim, or not?
I especially want to hear from people who have studied the original Hebrew texts and are well-versed in these things (scholarly types).

Anyone? Thanks

Here are several of the resources I've read concerning the topic:
THE RAIN / THE SERPENT OF GENESIS 3.
Job, satan, and the serpent
http://www.thedivinecouncil.com/nachashnotes.pdf
Nachash just means "snake," doesn't it? I think it's saraph that refers both to a "venomous snake" (because of the burning sensation venomous bites induce) and to a type of angel that shines brilliantly as though it were on fire. Honestly, I haven't read the article yet. It would be cool if there were a closer connection and "nachash" itself had that connotation. But from the research I've done it still gives reason to pause and contemplate.

If you look at the other angels in the Bible a lot of them have animalistic qualities. It could be that Satan is a bright, serpentine creature. Also, it's important to note that the imagery of a "venomous snake" isn't always evil. Because the word used for "venomous snake" is the same word used for the seraphim (i.e. particularly bright angels) that imagery can also be applied to non-rebellious angels of God. Don't forget the bronze "saraph" that Moses made either (Numbers 21:8). It was a symbol for Christ. And I believe that Christ shines brilliantly now, too. Possibly because the direct presence of God's glory imparts that to him as it seems to have done with Moses. But only later was the bronze saraph destroyed when the Israelites started worshipping it as "Nehushtan."
 
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breno785au

Senior Member
Jul 23, 2013
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Australia
#47
And almost 6,000 posts later, your back!
This is a good thread.
 
Feb 23, 2014
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#48
Woouuw, how could I miss this thread o_O

So interesting, im really glad that I came to this


Thanks for pulling out this thread, mr breno785au


In our translation (sk, and same goes for hungarian and russian) is no such thing mentioned in gen 3 as serpent, I dont know whether this expression is even translatable to our lang., but there is mention about that he is (snake) shrewd – wily (with reference in rev. 12,9; 20,2)

But regardless of it, we never considered that it is actual snake, because of causes which Tintin describes in the introduction of thread…and also for that we know, that when God created animals (same goes for plants, birds, etc etc) He repeatedly said that it was good… And God saw that it was good

Btw, that’s actually also a reason, why we are (most of easteuropean christians) don’t really that crazy about evolution theory (I mean interspecies evolution) as west europeans. Obviously, it is not an obstacle for acceptance microevolution principles.. (christian version) .. but enough of that…

So this thread was really yummy for me, but also little bit disturbing especially the part where I read in one of those links (Job, satan, and the serpent ) that in original version in book of Job (job 1) is no mention about Satan (not precisely) … like really? REALLY?

My whole adolescent years we have been terrorizing with those verses in terms, that we can not just go to city spend any of our time going out and wondering in city, because :

"Darlings, who walks back and forth, who?"

We (sadly):" …Satan."

(The Lord said to Satan, “Where have you come from?”
Satan answered the Lord, “From roaming throughout the earth, going back and forth on it...job 1)

… and also..

"And darlings, what happened to Dina when she went out for walk around the land?"

We (sadly): "Bad things."

(Now Dinah, the daughter Leah had borne to Jacob, went out to visit the women of the land….gen 34)


Haha, if I just would know back than, that in the original translation in Job isnt mentioned literally Satan.. I would … umm probably did not say anything, because I would not want to get a belting, but..hmm..ok nevermind… haha

But joking apart, I have chaos in these matters, we have in bible satan, devil, snake, old snake, beast, that old opponent, different kinds of beast (especially in rev. and daniel), night creators, etc… and now they are apparently also serpent and nachas… aaagh .. Im lost

But, as my mum always used to say “put it all in one bag and don’t speculate about it, its not important, important is, that we are saved and to be ready for Him, when He comes”


Be blessed
 
A

AgnusDei

Guest
#49
Yes, I created this thread roughly a month after I joined. Ah, the memories.

Tintin. What an amazing point.

My whole childish understanding of Genesis fell down with the post you put a year ago.

Amazing

From Venezuela to the land of Aussies: Canberra, Adelaide, Perth, Melbourne, Brisbane, Queensland, Sydney, Darwin.

God Bless you.
 
S

spookie

Guest
#50
Exactly, Rachel! It's like 'Tail like a cedar tree'? Have they ever seen a hippo or elephant? They have piddly tails. Also, the Leviathan. Many regard it to be a crocodile but that's a bit lame - also, do they breathe fire? Even if the references to these two beasts do recall mythological creatures from the period (in which they most certainly did) that's not to say that they were any less of a reality in Job's time! It wouldn't be the first time the Bible has used a combination of mythological and every day terms to communicate His Truth.

I blame the KJV for starting it all, 'river-horse', indeed! :(
Hello the leviathan is the sea beast that rises from the sea in rev. Chapter 13. The behemoth is the land beast in rev. Like the snake, they are not literal animals. The snake satan grows into dragon proportions by the end. Not a literal dragon either.
 

Atwood

Senior Member
May 1, 2014
4,995
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#51
John Calvin seems to be the only one who believed it was more metaphorical of the Adversary always being at odds with the human race.
Well, I think that the POV that the serpent in Gen 3 = satan (no snake involved), is not unusual. For example, see J. Oliver Buswell, Systematic Theology.
 
T

Tintin

Guest
#52
Hello the leviathan is the sea beast that rises from the sea in rev. Chapter 13. The behemoth is the land beast in rev. Like the snake, they are not literal animals. The snake satan grows into dragon proportions by the end. Not a literal dragon either.
No, those are symbolic monsters. The only similarities they share with the descriptions found in Job are that one is a land-based monster and the other is a sea-based monster and that both are very powerful.
 
Dec 12, 2013
46,515
20,395
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#53
Having grown up in a Christian household, I'd always seen the serpent in Genesis 3 as being something similar to a snake. Later in my teens, I viewed it as possibly a lizard-like creature, based on the verse where the Lord curses it by making it crawl on it's belly. Once again, my understanding has changed. Recently, I've discovered (from reading numerous articles) that the Hebrew word for 'snake' is the same as the word for 'shiny one' - "Nachash". I found this incredibly interesting but I'm not sure what to make of it and whether or not to take the theory seriously. On one hand, most people seem to accept the serpent in Genesis as being a snake, on the other, this theory sounds quite plausible (and more interesting). First of all, the Father of Lies (the Adversary) is sometimes described as a fallen angel of light. Secondly, by my reckoning, it's more plausible for Adam and Eve to be tempted by a being a light (as was Joseph Smith - the Mormon conman) than by a talking snake, since the serpent would have to be possessed by the Adversary and the Bible makes no mention of this (to be fair, there's a lot the Bible doesn't mention). Surely, if no other animal in the Garden talked, Adam and Eve would've questioned their situation the moment the serpent first opened it's mouth! I understand that the Bible tells us precious little about this "nachash". I'm just curious to hear what others think about this revelation.

Is there any truth to the claim, or not?
I especially want to hear from people who have studied the original Hebrew texts and are well-versed in these things (scholarly types).

Anyone? Thanks

Here are several of the resources I've read concerning the topic:
THE RAIN / THE SERPENT OF GENESIS 3.
Job, satan, and the serpent
http://www.thedivinecouncil.com/nachashnotes.pdf
My view is that he was a dragon and the descriptions of the (precious stones) of his covering when he was the anointed cherub was that of his scales as in brilliantly colored and he is called the (shining ONE)....He had a Heavenly Form and he has His fallen form......

Do the study of the (seed of the serpent) bro and study the words.....
 
J

Joe_Schmoe

Guest
#54
God leaves you and I to believe His Word and then discover its truth, "line upon line, precept on precept". Only then does it become understandable.
The truth about the serpent and who and what it was can be found at this link. The article is too long to post here.

http://israelect.com/reference/JackMohr/jm074b.htm

 

john832

Senior Member
May 31, 2013
11,363
185
63
#55
Having grown up in a Christian household, I'd always seen the serpent in Genesis 3 as being something similar to a snake. Later in my teens, I viewed it as possibly a lizard-like creature, based on the verse where the Lord curses it by making it crawl on it's belly. Once again, my understanding has changed. Recently, I've discovered (from reading numerous articles) that the Hebrew word for 'snake' is the same as the word for 'shiny one' - "Nachash". I found this incredibly interesting but I'm not sure what to make of it and whether or not to take the theory seriously. On one hand, most people seem to accept the serpent in Genesis as being a snake, on the other, this theory sounds quite plausible (and more interesting). First of all, the Father of Lies (the Adversary) is sometimes described as a fallen angel of light. Secondly, by my reckoning, it's more plausible for Adam and Eve to be tempted by a being a light (as was Joseph Smith - the Mormon conman) than by a talking snake, since the serpent would have to be possessed by the Adversary and the Bible makes no mention of this (to be fair, there's a lot the Bible doesn't mention). Surely, if no other animal in the Garden talked, Adam and Eve would've questioned their situation the moment the serpent first opened it's mouth! I understand that the Bible tells us precious little about this "nachash". I'm just curious to hear what others think about this revelation.

Is there any truth to the claim, or not?
I especially want to hear from people who have studied the original Hebrew texts and are well-versed in these things (scholarly types).

Anyone? Thanks

Here are several of the resources I've read concerning the topic:
THE RAIN / THE SERPENT OF GENESIS 3.
Job, satan, and the serpent
http://www.thedivinecouncil.com/nachashnotes.pdf
Bright shiny one and if you do a little digging you can find that it also refers to a "Whispering Enchanter".
 
T

Tintin

Guest
#56
God leaves you and I to believe His Word and then discover its truth, "line upon line, precept on precept". Only then does it become understandable.
The truth about the serpent and who and what it was can be found at this link. The article is too long to post here.

http://israelect.com/reference/JackMohr/jm074b.htm

Christian Identity? Take your racist bull and shove off!
 
Jun 26, 2014
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#57
Where do you get 'shining one' from that? I can see the words relation to hissing, whispering, and enchanting but I can't seem to find 'shining one' outside of mysticism. It's not something you'd find in a concordance.


I always thought he was something like what we'd call a dragon myself rather than a small serpent.

Shining one seems like its something that would come from various mysticism though.
In Isaiah 14:12 we have Satan being called Lucifer. This is not the original name for Satan because it's a Latin word and the Bible wasn't written in Latin. The word, Lucifer, means light bearer, shinning one, morning star. Light is truth but Satan has a twisted form of truth.

2 Corinthians 11:14 And no wonder! For Satan himself transforms himself into an angel of light.

So yes, Satan shines but be-careful.
 
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john832

Senior Member
May 31, 2013
11,363
185
63
#58
In Isaiah 14:12 we have Satan being called Lucifer. This is not the original name for Satan because it's a Latin word and the Bible wasn't written in Latin. The word, Lucifer, means light bearer, shinning one, morning star. Light is truth but Satan has a twisted form of truth.

2 Corinthians 11:14 And no wonder! For Satan himself transforms himself into an angel of light.

So yes, Satan shines but be-careful.
Original name? Heylel
 
May 15, 2013
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#59
Shemot 7:9-15

9. "When Pharaoh speaks to you, saying, 'Provide a sign for yourselves,' you shall say to Aaron, 'Take your staff, [and] cast [it] before Pharaoh; it will become a serpent.' " ט. כִּי יְדַבֵּר אֲלֵכֶם פַּרְעֹה לֵאמֹר תְּנוּ לָכֶם מוֹפֵת וְאָמַרְתָּ אֶל אַהֲרֹן קַח אֶת מַטְּךָ וְהַשְׁלֵךְ לִפְנֵי פַרְעֹה יְהִי לְתַנִּין:
10. [Thereupon,] Moses and Aaron came to Pharaoh, and they did so, as the Lord had commanded; Aaron cast his staff before Pharaoh and before his servants, and it became a serpent. י. וַיָּבֹא מֹשֶׁה וְאַהֲרֹן אֶל פַּרְעֹה וַיַּעֲשׂוּ כֵן כַּאֲשֶׁר צִוָּה יְ־הֹוָ־ה וַיַּשְׁלֵךְ אַהֲרֹן אֶת מַטֵּהוּ לִפְנֵי פַרְעֹה וְלִפְנֵי עֲבָדָיו וַיְהִי לְתַנִּין:
11. [Then,] Pharaoh too summoned the wise men and the magicians, and the necromancers of Egypt also did likewise with their magic. יא. וַיִּקְרָא גַּם פַּרְעֹה לַחֲכָמִים וְלַמְכַשְּׁפִים וַיַּעֲשׂוּ גַם הֵם חַרְטֻמֵּי מִצְרַיִם בְּלַהֲטֵיהֶם כֵּן:
12. Each one of them cast down his staff, and they became serpents; but Aaron's staff swallowed their staffs. יב. וַיַּשְׁלִיכוּ אִישׁ מַטֵּהוּ וַיִּהְיוּ לְתַנִּינִם וַיִּבְלַע מַטֵּה אַהֲרֹן אֶת מַטֹּתָם:
13. But Pharaoh's heart remained steadfast, and he did not hearken to them, as the Lord had spoken. יג. וַיֶּחֱזַק לֵב פַּרְעֹה וְלֹא שָׁמַע אֲלֵהֶם כַּאֲשֶׁר דִּבֶּר יְ־הֹוָ־ה:
14. The Lord said to Moses, "Pharaoh's heart is heavy; he has refused to let the people out. יד. וַיֹּאמֶר יְ־הֹוָ־ה אֶל מֹשֶׁה כָּבֵד לֵב פַּרְעֹה מֵאֵן לְשַׁלַּח הָעָם:
15. Go to Pharaoh in the morning; behold, he is going forth to the water, and you shall stand opposite him on the bank of the Nile, and the staff that was turned into a serpent you shall take in your hand. טו. לֵךְ אֶל פַּרְעֹה בַּבֹּקֶר הִנֵּה יֹצֵא הַמַּיְמָה וְנִצַּבְתָּ לִקְרָאתוֹ עַל שְׂפַת הַיְאֹר וְהַמַּטֶּה אֲשֶׁר נֶהְפַּךְ לְנָחָשׁ תִּקַּח בְּיָדֶךָ:​
In the text, verses 9-12 the Hebrew word is not "serpent"נָחָשׁ but "crocodile" תַנִּין. In verse 15 it reverts back to "serpent" נָחָשׁ.
Why do you suppose the Hebrew word crocodile used, why is it translated into English as serpent, and why does the Hebrew change back to serpent in vs 15? http://www.christianforums.com/t7633513/

Isaiah 27:1 - In that day the LORD with his sore and great and strong sword shall punish leviathan the piercing serpent, even leviathan that crooked serpent; and he shall slay the dragon that is in the sea.

Job 41:1-34 - Canst thou draw out leviathan with an hook? or his tongue with a cord which thou lettest down?

Psalms 104:26 - There go the ships: there is that leviathan, whom thou hast made to play therein.


Psalms 74:14 - Thou brakest the heads of leviathan in pieces, and gavest him to be meat to the people inhabiting the wilderness.

 
Z

zerolevity

Guest
#60
2Live:

Isiah 14:12 is clearly talking about the king of Babylon, he is a adversary, not The Adversary, he's just a powerful human who is full of pride.

Given the word for shining one is here, and totally unrelated to the word serpent in any way, shape, or form, this reference only casts more doubt on the 'shining one theory'...

Oh never mind, context probably doesn't matter to you 2live.



Anyway, I see where the shining one logical leap comes from now. It explains a great deal.
Far as it is in Isaiah, there are two people addressed. One is the king, one is a prince. Context matters