DeMystifying the Trinity

Eagleridge · Feb 6, 2013

This is a very sensitive subject matter but I feel needs to be exposed - the Bible lets us know that "Holy men of God" were inspired by the Holy Ghost to write the Books that make up the Bible - I do not pretend to be one of them but ...I was born again (water and Spirit) 30 years ago and live my life in the doctrine of Jesus Christ - and I specify that because there are 2 doctrines - God's and man's interpretation(s) of God's - the latter, subject to the influences in our lives (parents, teachers, friends, environment etc.) - prompts the question: "How can we know what God's doctrine is?" Let me begin......there are also..... 2 "kinds" of Christians ...those that readily believe that God is ONE but....made up of 3 entities (no other way to put it) ....the Trinity....not found in the Bible...and in the time of Christ on earth not even conceived....that's why the disciples had no trouble believing what they'd been taught to believe all their lives, from infancy......told day after day..."Hear O Israel, the Lord our God is ONE Lord".....why do you think Jehovah had them say that to their children from the day they were born? Because He knew that the time would come, when man would believe a "man doctrine" that would teach that He was a triune entity.....and that day didn't come until 300 years after Christ was risen at a council in Nicea by a group of men (no mention that they were holy men of God)....The Bible tells us that "God is the same, yesterday, today and forever." So tell me this; why would He tell his people for thousands of years that He was ONE (use terms like "no other beside me, I ALONE, before Abraham I AM etc.") ....never even imply that He had a Son and...and a Holy Ghost?????? with Him...and come along at a council 300 years (no less) after Christ left the earth only to tell them that "by the way, there are 3 of us here but we still only make up ONE)? say what?... a change? but I thought He didn't change ...Oops ....then we have those that believe that God really is ONE who MANIFESTED Himself as a man so that he could reconcile the world back to himself on a cross (shed blood - a Spirit cannot shed blood but, a man can) - Just like He was able to manifest Himself as a burning bush, an angel, a bird, a pillar of fire, a cloud by day, a fourth in the fiery furnace, He manifested himself as a MAN but didn't change who he was - the terms Father and Son are terms used to accomodate our finite minds - that's why the Bible tells us that he was BEGOTTEN in time (at some point in time God became Man in the person of Jesus Christ) but wait.....I'll tell you why most people don't get all that....it has to be revealed....the natural mind cannot grasp it (I Cor 2:14) ...these things have to be REVEALED to those that really want to know the TRUTH (the whole TRUTH) and not some interpretation of IT. I have so much more on the subject...if you want more.....and you have the heart of a seeker...let me know..I'll e-mail you some fascinating insights into this erroneous TRINITY......Paul

Tintin · Feb 6, 2013

Just do a search on the forums, you'll find the Trinity topic comes up often. The Trinity is Truth, God in three persons. One God = 3 persons, not 3 Gods. Purely biblical and still a monotheistic religion.

Eagleridge · Feb 6, 2013

I am willing to discuss this in more detail - will not be drawn into a debate - you see it or you don't - but to just state that Trinity is TRUTH in light of everything I took the time to share tells me that you (like most people in the world) have accepted this doctrine with blind faith - and if that's where you want to take your stand, I respect it .. please know that my intention is not to offend but enlighten based on 30 years walking with the Lord Jesus Christ - there are people who will live out their whole lives on TOP of the pages of the Bible (including and especially scholars and reputable and reknowned theologians) but there are others that want the DEPTH of His Word - that's where the REVELATIONS are....that's where TRUTH ...LIES......willing to share more - God bless and thank you for your response

Bowman · Feb 6, 2013

Eagleridge said:

Paul,

The Shema is Trinitarian to begin with.

Have you ever taken the time to study the Hebrew?

Elin · Feb 6, 2013

Eagleridge said:

Well, not exactly.

Granted, the word "Trinity" is not in the Bible, but three divine persons are, just as the word "sovereign" is not in the Bible, but it is everywhere taught (Da 4:35).

1) Redemption is a function of divinity.
The NT shows three separate divine agents, Father, Son and Holy Spirit in the work of redemption/salvation:

a) Father, Son and Holy Spirit at its beginning (Lk 1:35), the inauguration of Jesus' public ministry (Mt 3:16-17),

b) the Holy Spirit completing the Father's work of redemption through the son [Ac 2:38-39; Ro 8 (v.26); 1Co 12:4-13 (vv.4-6); Eph 1:3-14 (v.14), 2:13-22 (v.18), 2Th 2:13; 1Pe 1:2];

c) the only way to enter the kingdom of the Father is through faith in the Son and regeneration by the Holy Spirit (Jn 3:1-15 (vv.5,14-15).

2) The Father, Son and Holy Spirit are bracketed together as the triune name of God.

a) Note in Mt 28:13 that Jesus said this was the name (singular) of the God with whom we enter into relationship.

b) Paul used all three interchangeably in 1Co 12:4-6, they are linked together in prayer for divine blessing in 2Co 13:14, and they are linked in pronouncement of divine blessing in Rev 1:4-5.

3) The close connection in the NT between Father, Son and Holy Spirit show a co-equal relationship:
Paul says "the Lord (Jesus) is the Spirit" (2Co 3:16-18), meaning the Spirit is one with Jesus in the unity of the Godhead.
Jesus not only works in men through the Spirit, but the Son and Spirit are co-equal divine beings.
For to express that Christ worked through him, Paul would never say, "The Lord is Paul."
So Paul bears witness to the Spirit's place in the Godhead.

4) The NT shows the Holy Spirit to be a person.
It refers to him with the personal pronoun he, personal titles and personal functions.
The NT shows him acting as a person: speaking (Ac 8:29), deciding (Ac 15:28), forbidding (Ac 16:7), testifying (Ac 5:32), sending out missionaries (Ac 13:14), interceding (Ro 8:26-27).

5) To believe God is Three-In-One is not to violate the word of the OT.
The OT forbid worship of false gods--gods other than, apart from or outside YHWH.
The Son and Holy Spirit are not other than, apart from or outside YHWH any more than his Word (Jn 1:1, 14, 18) or his breath are other than, part from or outside YHWH (Ge 1:2; Job 26:13, 32:8, 33:4, 34:14-15; Ps 33:6).

That YHWH is Three-In-One is the overwhelming testimony of the gospel and the NT.

Eagleridge · Feb 6, 2013

With all due respect - please don't make these statements without backing them up - there is absolutely no truth in that statement - "Hear O Israel the Lord our God is ONE" - Latin, Hebrew, Greek or Hindu.....ONE is one in any language ......

Tintin · Feb 6, 2013

Yes, the Lord our God is One God but in three persons.

Eagleridge · Feb 6, 2013

WOW -what a stretch - because it's SO popular...it must be true...remember when Jesus told them that "My Father and i are ONE" ... they wanted to stone Him .. because they used their natural minds to rationalize that this man could not possibly be God - the TRUTH was standing right in front of them and they couldn't see it - it was the popular belief of the day and the reason EVERYONE cried out "Crucify him" ... same thing today ..religious (quote) "Christians" of the second "kind" ..perfect example here .....refuse to recognize Jesus as Jehovah in the flesh ... the tabernacle that housed Almighty God...a "body hast thou prepared" for me to inhabit .. when you see that as man and God .. you can understand why he prayed to the Father (as the man - he had to pray) and to give us the example..just like his baptism ....told John "For all righteousness to be filfilled"...AS A MAN .. and to give us an example of how to get baptized ...he came UP out of the water (IMMERSION) and did it when he was mature and not an infant ...don't you see? ... "Before Abraham was I AM" ......and as long as you try to rationalize it using the very Scriptures that would REVEAL it to you, you'll never come to terms with it... why do you think Jesus turned the world upside down with this doctrine? ...it wasn't popular with the religious leaders of the day .. same today ....."let them that have eyes see" "let them that have ears hear" .....unless you want to die in the tradition of man's doctrine and not HIS. The most dangerous thing people can do today is to follow the crowd ...and that crowd is made up of multiple millions of (quote) "Christians" that hold to a tradition that was founded 300 years after Christ by a mere handful of religious zealots. Thanx for your response - Lord bless -

crossnote · Feb 6, 2013

In the beginningH7225 GodH430 createdH1254 (H853) the heavenH8064 and the earth.H776
(Gen 1:1)

God H430 = elohiym (plural)

and from JFB Commentary,
"God — the name of the Supreme Being, signifying in Hebrew, “Strong,” “Mighty.” It is expressive of omnipotent power; and by its use here in the plural form, is obscurely taught at the opening of the Bible, a doctrine clearly revealed in other parts of it, namely, that though God is one, there is a plurality of persons in the Godhead - Father, Son, and Spirit, who were engaged in the creative work (Pro_8:27; Joh_1:3, Joh_1:10; Eph_3:9; Heb_1:2; Job_26:13)."

Bowman · Feb 7, 2013

Eagleridge said:

The onus of proof for your assertion that the Shema refers to a monad is fully upon your shoulders.

This should be most interesting to watch you defend it, as you completrely ignore the original Hebrew in which it was first written...

Elin · Feb 7, 2013

Eagleridge said:

Thanks for the respect, but if you are going to argue against Jesus' revelation (Heb 1:1-2), which is the NT given by the apostles, it will require three things:

1) that you pay attention--the statements are backed up with Scripture in my 1) - 5), above,

Eagleridge said:

2) that you know the Scriptures - the words in red above are the words of the Son (Jn 8:58), not of the Father, and

3) that you observe the rule of evidence -"Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence."

God likewise never implied that in fulfilling Ps 110:4 (Heb 7:17, 21), he would make the Sinaitic (Old) Covenant obsolete (Heb 8:13), change the Levitical priesthood from the order of Aaron to the order of Melchizedek (Heb 7:11), set aside the Mosaic law (Heb 7:18-19) given on the basis of the Levitical priesthood (Heb 7:11), and end the sacrificial system with the once-for-all sacrifice of his Son (Heb 9:26, 10:10).

But God not implying temporariness in the OT is not evidence that it wasn't temporary.

So likewise, absence of evidence in the OT of three persons in the one Godhead is not evidence of absence of the three persons in the one Godhead.

Are you sure about that?

Let's see what is "implied" in the OT.

The name "Elohim" is plural, implying a plural Godhead.

Furthermore, there is

Ge 1:26 - "Then God said, 'Let us make man in our image.' "

Ge 3:22 - "And the LORD God said, 'The man has not become like one of us.' "

Ge 11:7 - "The Lord said. . ."Come, let us go down and confuse their language."

It is indeed "implied" in the OT that the Father had a Son and a Holy Spirit.

And the existence/reality of what was "implied" in the OT is shown in the Scriptures I've presented above from the NT.

Elin · Feb 7, 2013

Eagleridge said:

"I and the Father are ONE" (Jn 10:30) is not a numerical statement regarding the Godhead.

"I" and "Father" are two right there.

"One" is neuter, not personal, in the Greek, meaning not one person, but one thing; i.e., in their essence or nature they are the same, but they are not the same person.

The language does not allow that person (masc or fem) is being spoken of.

Jn 10:30 does not show that the Father and the Son are one and the same person.

JGPS · Feb 7, 2013

The trinity is a popular doctrine because apparently many people can't wrap their head around God taking on more than one form at the same physical time.

You'd think this wouldn't be hard, considering its God we're dealing with, but it is what it is.

That God Is the Son and Is His Spirit is of course correct. The part where God is Not the Son Nor his own spirit is hogwash.

Honestly, even I have a body, mind, and spirit, but I don't go around calling myself three distinct persons... Give those attributes to God and people start talking like they're three different entities.

It's a useful doctrine for some and it's not particularly harmful. Well, I mean lots of people have been killed over it, but if it wasn't for people being opinionated about it it wouldn't be harmful. So long as the people who use that doctrine don't go slaughtering and ostracizing those who disagree its not so bad.

Bowman · Feb 7, 2013

JGPS said:

The trinity is a popular doctrine because apparently many people can't wrap their head around God taking on more than one form at the same physical time.

You'd think this wouldn't be hard, considering its God we're dealing with, but it is what it is.

That God Is the Son and Is His Spirit is of course correct. The part where God is Not the Son Nor his own spirit is hogwash.

Honestly, even I have a body, mind, and spirit, but I don't go around calling myself three distinct persons... Give those attributes to God and people start talking like they're three different entities.

It's a useful doctrine for some and it's not particularly harmful. Well, I mean lots of people have been killed over it, but if it wasn't for people being opinionated about it it wouldn't be harmful. So long as the people who use that doctrine don't go slaughtering and ostracizing those who disagree its not so bad.

Your understanding of the Trinity is flawed.

Eagleridge · Feb 7, 2013

WOW - knew I'd stir up a hornets nest but - like I said - YOU SEE IT or YOU DON'T - and unless you have the born again experience, you'll never see it... - the keys to the Kingdom of God that Jesus gave to Peter and used on the Day of Pentecost (Acts 2:38) "REPENT, BE BAPTIZED EVERYONE OF YOU IN THE NAME OF JESUS CHRIST" and...."AND...YOU SHALL RECEIVE THE GIFT OF THE HOLY GHOST" and...AND He shall lead you into TRUTH ......that's why Jesus told Nichodemus in John 3:3 ..."Except a man be born again....he cannot (WHAT?) .......SEE the KINGDOM OF GOD".....verse 5...."cannot ENTER the KINGDOM OF GOD". I had that experience and the Holy Ghost opened up the DEPTH of the Word of God......no longer live on TOP of the pages of the Bible where Scribes, and Theologians will debate until the end of time. And let me add this piece of wisdom...unless you can understand that Jesus Christ, born as a man, was the temple, the tabernacle that God dwelt in, in order to go to the cross HIMSELF, you'll always see THREE ...why?.... because you're looking at it through the "NATURAL MIND" ....read I Cor 2:14 about that...unless you want to go on believing in the doctrine of the TRINITY. Lord bless -

Blain · Feb 7, 2013

i remember in genisis the spirit of god was going accross the oceans of the world. The holy spirit is a unique part of god,whenever god says for something to happen the holy spirit takes his words and makes it happen, i remember in the gospels mary was looking for jesus comepletley scared and worried for him, they found him in the temple speaking with ppl from the temple and when mary got on to him he said why were you looking for me? didn't you know i should be in my fathers temple? i also remember jesus saying he is i am but he also noted thatthe and the father are one, and was not afraid to make everyone know he was equel to god but of course the ppl would not have that. but honestly the evidence of this subject of the god head three in one is everywhere in the nt and the ot referes jesus as the word and the prophets prophesy of jesus in the ot too.

Eagleridge · Feb 7, 2013

IF YOU'RE LOOKING AT IT THROUGH THE NATURAL MIND "EYES" (AGAIN I COR 2:14) .. OF COURSE YOU'LL SEE THREE EVERYWHERE ..I WAS RAISED A CATHOLIC...TRINITARIAN..ONE DAY I DECIDED TO INVESTIGATE THE (QUOTE) "RELIGION" OR THE TRADITION OF MY PARENTS I WAS BORN INTO....WHAT AN AWAKENING.....ASKED GOD (PRAYED) TO LEAD ME WHERE "THE TRUTH" THAT HE DIED FOR, WAS BEING PREACHED....HE DID....LED ME TO PENTECOST ....THAT'S WHERE I WAS BORN AGAIN, 30 YEARS AGO...WHAT A JOURNEY OF DISCOVERY....YOU SEE...DIDN'T WANT TO SETTLE FOR MY PARENTS' RELIGION...IT WAS AND IS THE MOST POPULAR...SO WAS JUDAISM...UNTIL JESUS CAME ON THE SCENE AND DECLARED "I AND MY FATHER ARE ONE...IF YOU'VE SEEN ME..YOU'VE SEEN THE FATHER".....:BEFORE ABRAHAM WAS...I AM" .....THEY WANTED TO STONE HIM FOR THE SAME REASON EVERYONE IN THIS FORUM WANTS TO PROVE ME WRONG......HE WAS DECLARING A TRUTH THAT WAS CONTRARY (OR SO IT SEEMED) TO THEIR NATURAL THINKING... TO THEIR TRADITION......"FATHER" AND "SON" ARE TERMS USED TO DISTINGUISH BETWEEN "THE MAN" AND THE "DEITY" THAT WAS JESUS CHRIST....BUT THAT CAN ONLY BE DISCERNED BY REVELATION NOT "RATIONAL THINKING' ..... ANOTHER QUESTION...IF THE FATHER, SON AND HOLY SPIRIT ARE CO-EQUAL PARTS OF ONE WHY IS IT THAT PAUL NEVER ONCE MENTIONS THE HOLY GHOST IN HIS SALUTATIONS IN THE EPISTLES?... WHENEVER YOU ATTEND A GALA , THEY ALWAYS ADDRESS ALL OF THE DIGNITARIES ... BE RUDE TO LEAVE ONE OF THEM OUT ....HOW DISRESPECTFUL OF PAUL NEVER...NEVER TO MENTION THE HOLY GHOST UNLESS....UNLESS...WAIT FOR IT....HE HAD THE REVELATION THAT THE HOLY SPIRIT IS THE SPIRIT OF GOD THE DEITY AND THE MAN AND NOT A THIRD PART OF HIM...... YOU CAN LET THIS BE AN EPIPHANY AND ALLOW GOD TO LEAD INTO THE FULLNESS OF THE TRUTH OR HANG ON TO YOUR TRADITION AND DEBATE ME UNTIL THE COWS COME HOME...THAT'S WHAT'S GREAT ABOUT OUR FREE WILL.....YOU GET TO CHOOSE WHAT YOU WANT TOBELIEVE.

Elin · Feb 7, 2013

JGPS said:

Perhaps you would like to explain why they are referred to as separate persons with separate functions.

1) If God is only "I" and not "Us," why are three separate divine persons named at the same time, instead of just God, in the work of redemption?

a) Father, Son and Holy Spirit at the conception (Lk 1:35), at the inauguration of the Son's ministry (M t3:16-17) and in the work of atonement (Heb 9:14);

b) The Father sends the Spirit in the Son's name; i.e., as the Son's deputy (Jn 14:26); and the Son sends the Spirit from the Father, to act in the world as the agent and witness of the Son (Jn 15:26, 16:7), so that the Spirit is sent by the Son, as well as the Father.

2) Why does the Son state that the Holy Spirit is another Comforter--another like himself, but which is not himself? (Jn 14:16-17, 25-26, 15:26, 16:7)?

If it's all the same divine person, why does the Son use three different names? Why not just "God"?

Can your body mind and spirit could act as three separate agents?
They cannot, they can act as only one agent, so it's best you not make that claim.

Body, mind and spirit aren't the "attributes" being given to God.
Father, Son and Holy Spirit act separately, showing that they are three different agents, which Jesus reveals are three persons, in one being.
Father is "he, him" and the Holy Spirit is "he, him." (Jn 14:17, 15:26, 16:7).

Do you think Jesus is grateful for your magnanimous view of his NT revelation (Heb 1:1-2) given through his apostles, regarding the three divine persons of the Godhead?

Elin · Feb 7, 2013

Eagleridge said:

Or, if you're looking at it through the natural mind "eyes," of course you won't see it at all.

So address the points on

1) Ge 1:26, 3:22, 11:7 here, and

2) Jn 10:30 here.

Elin · Feb 7, 2013

Eagleridge said:

And we'll know how well "you see it" when you address the points presented on

1) Ge 1:26, 3:22, 11:7 here, and

2) Jn 10:30 here.

DeMystifying the Trinity

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