to Theotokos or not to Theotokos....

[dscherck]

All Christians agree that Jesus was immaculately concepted. What the Catholics teach is that Mary was also and that she was sinless. This is where they are off base and it does not teach that any where in scripture. But Jesus was born of a virgin that is not in dispute. (not by any true believer at least)

Actually we can see in the Angel's greeting to the Theotokos the word, "kecharitomene" It's a particularly interesting word since it's only used for Mary. "Kecharitomene" is the Greek for grace, but it's the perfect passive participle form. Perfect passive participles are interesting verb tenses, not one normally encountered. It is something that was completed in the past, and yet is still ongoing at the present. Taking this into account, we can read the Angel's greeting as "Hail Mary, You who have been completely, perfectly, and enduringly endowed with grace."

This verse is the basis of the idea of the the sinlessness of the Theotokos. I'm not too familiar with the Orthodox POV regarding the Theotokos in this regard. I don't think they necessarily call her sinless, but I don't think they ever had it questioned really, it's just assumed. I'm sure Ryan1976 will be glad to clarify things.

 

[Semiazas]

foe ALL have sinned and come short of the glory of god.

 

[Ryan1976]

This verse is the basis of the idea of the the sinlessness of the Theotokos. I'm not too familiar with the Orthodox POV regarding the Theotokos in this regard. I don't think they necessarily call her sinless, but I don't think they ever had it questioned really, it's just assumed.

The sinlessness of Mary is not dogmatic in Orthodoxy. Being born without sin is quite another story. Orthodox have a different view on Original Sin. According to the Roman Catholic tradition (correct me if I'm wrong) the reason Immaculate Conception is dogmatic is because a young girl had a vision where she believed the blessed Mary appeared to her and said, "I am immaculate". This dream or vision was then submitted to the SEE/Pope and then they gave it the seal of approval, making it dogma. Orthodox see the dogma as having to do with Rome's model of Original Sin. I'm not sure but don't Roman Catholics also believed that, like Enoch or Elijah, she was taken up, ie. never died? This is because of Ezekial 18:20 that says that the one that sins will die. So, because she went through her entire life without any sin or corruption whatsover then she would no longer be subjected to have to "die". This too relates to Original Sin but that's another topic.

 

[dscherck]

My understanding is that the Theotokos did repose, but right afterward she was taken up.

 

[suaso]

I believe the Church teaches that she was assumed into heaven, but doesn't say that she didn't die first. In other words, she died but her body was assumed before being allowed to suffer the corruption of decay. I thought the Orthodox had a similar view called the Dormition of the Theotokos?

 

[Ryan1976]

I believe the Church teaches that she was assumed into heaven, but doesn't say that she didn't die first. In other words, she died but her body was assumed before being allowed to suffer the corruption of decay. I thought the Orthodox had a similar view called the Dormition of the Theotokos?

Yes. But I thought Rome believed that she didn't die. I was totally mistaken. I think that's a mystery too. Her death. St. John took her to Ephesus with him as listed in the minutes of one of the councils methinks. It was there (Ephesus) that she might have died, no?

 

[Ryan1976]

And if she never sinned then why did she die, anyway?

Ezekiel 18:20 (New International Version)

20 The soul who sins is the one who will die. The son will not share the guilt of the father, nor will the father share the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous man will be credited to him, and the wickedness of the wicked will be charged against him.




Of course I'm not saying Mary continued to sin or anything derogatory. She is ever-virgin. But her death always confuses me and I don't understand the Immaculate Conception. Born without sin, to never sin, ever. No corrupted flesh? Nothing. Then why death? I think that's why I assumed that Roman Catholics believed that she never died. In the Western model of Original sin we inherit legal guilt via our DNA. It's hard-coded. Somehow, God didn't subject her to this "guilt"? It's this guilt that separates us from the Father. It's also what is responsible for physical death itself. If Adam and Eve would have never disobeyed, they would have lived as God originally designed us to live - forever. Why? No separation from the Father. No separation, no death. If Mary is born Immaculate, then according to the Western perspective on Original Sin, then how is it Mary died?

 

[suaso]

It's one of those theological toughies that I am a bit rusty on myself. I am sure she would be subject to death because she was human after all. For this reason too she was also in need of a savior like the rest of us. Immaculate Conception and Assumption/Dormition aside, she was still of the human race and would be subject to the fate of all human beings, that being death, and like all human beings, she still needed a savior...but in all honesty, the Church doesn't say if she was assumed into Heaven while still alive or if she did die and was then assumed.

Like I said, it's not my strongest area of theology, so I am sure there are other Catholics who could give a much better explanation of that belief than I could.