church history

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wattie

wattie

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#1
Feb 24, 2009
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#1
It's a funny thing..

most churches trace their lineage back through Catholicism.. and often Catholicism is considered the only church from Jesus' time till the middle ages.

But what is the real story?

Catholicism.. started to go off track with-

infant baptism
regenerational baptism
worshipping relics and idols
elevation of men to divine like status-- eg the Pope
salvation through works

plus more

is this what Jesus calls- His church?


you may be interested to know there were christian assemblies around at the same time.. and before the catholic church formed.. which had

baptism after salvation
no baptism of infants
baptism by full immersion
salvation by grace alone through faith in Christ
autonomy of a local assembly-- (seperation from state run church)
Jesus as the head of each assembly

Waldensians were like this.. so were Donatists.. Paulicians...

they were around at the same time and before Catholicism..
 
C

Cup-of-Ruin

Guest
#2
#2
wattie said:
It's a funny thing..

most churches trace their lineage back through Catholicism.. and often Catholicism is considered the only church from Jesus' time till the middle ages.

But what is the real story?

Catholicism.. started to go off track with-

infant baptism
regenerational baptism
worshipping relics and idols
elevation of men to divine like status-- eg the Pope
salvation through works

plus more

is this what Jesus calls- His church?


you may be interested to know there were christian assemblies around at the same time.. and before the catholic church formed.. which had

baptism after salvation
no baptism of infants
baptism by full immersion
salvation by grace alone through faith in Christ
autonomy of a local assembly-- (seperation from state run church)
Jesus as the head of each assembly

Waldensians were like this.. so were Donatists.. Paulicians...

they were around at the same time and before Catholicism..
Click to expand...
The first Christian Church was built by Joseph of Arimathea in Ireland, this was the first Christian mission.
 
W

watchmen

Banned
#3
Apr 23, 2009
2,253
5
0
#3
wattie said:
It's a funny thing..

most churches trace their lineage back through Catholicism.. and often Catholicism is considered the only church from Jesus' time till the middle ages.

But what is the real story?

Catholicism.. started to go off track with-

infant baptism
regenerational baptism
worshipping relics and idols
elevation of men to divine like status-- eg the Pope
salvation through works

plus more

is this what Jesus calls- His church?


you may be interested to know there were christian assemblies around at the same time.. and before the catholic church formed.. which had

baptism after salvation
no baptism of infants
baptism by full immersion
salvation by grace alone through faith in Christ
autonomy of a local assembly-- (seperation from state run church)
Jesus as the head of each assembly

Waldensians were like this.. so were Donatists.. Paulicians...

they were around at the same time and before Catholicism..
Click to expand...
I appreciate this information wattie.
 
MahogonySnail

MahogonySnail

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#4
Jan 8, 2009
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#4
The first Christian Church was built by Joseph of Arimathea in Ireland, this was the first Christian mission.
Click to expand...
Then we should expect Paul's letters to the church at Ireland then? LOL.
 
C

Cup-of-Ruin

Guest
#5
#5
MahogonySnail said:
Then we should expect Paul's letters to the church at Ireland then? LOL.
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Why Paul was still hunting Christians when Joseph and Lazarus, Mary Magdelan, Martha, Maximum (the blind man whom Jesus healed) and several other Christian diciples made their mission to Briton, the Apostle Phillip met them in Gaul on their journey A.D. 35!!!
 
MahogonySnail

MahogonySnail

Banned
#7
Jan 8, 2009
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#7
This is where your theology branches off into the british Israelism errors or similar.
 
C

Cup-of-Ruin

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#8
#8
MahogonySnail said:
This is where your theology branches off into the british Israelism errors or similar.
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Just the facts 'Snail call it whatever 'ism you like, the fact is the first Church was established in Briton in AD 35.
 
wattie

wattie

Senior Member
#9
Feb 24, 2009
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#9
First church.. ?

Well.. book of Acts has a church already formed at Jerusalem.. it was 'added to' in the beginning of the book of Acts..

So Jesus- He says Matthew:

Mat 18:17 And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as a heathen man and a publican.

This was before Pentecost.. was He talking about a church that hadn't formed yet? Not likely!

Jesus and His disciples-

Were 'called out'- which is part of the definition of the word 'ecclessia' that the English word assembly and church are based on.

Were an assembly of saved baptised believers with Jesus as the Head.. (altho the case can be made Judas wasn't saved- counted with them.. but not a member)

They carried the great commandment and the great commission.. Jesus was talking to His disciples as an assembly when He talked about the commission
and commandment..

They had the authority to go and plant more churches.. sent out by what church?

Jesus and His disciples.. the first Christian assembly, church, congregation :)

Mat 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

Jesus- building His church... when you look at the Greek behind this verse.. it can be translated.. 'Will be building'.. as in continuing to build His church He already established with His disciples that carried on as an institution with more church plants.

Also-- Word for Peter.. and rock.. in the Greek are not the same word.. so Jesus is building His church on Himself.. He is 'this rock', not Peter.

So there you go
 
C

Cup-of-Ruin

Guest
#10
#10
wattie said:
First church.. ?

Well.. book of Acts has a church already formed at Jerusalem.. it was 'added to' in the beginning of the book of Acts..

So Jesus- He says Matthew:

Mat 18:17 And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as a heathen man and a publican.

This was before Pentecost.. was He talking about a church that hadn't formed yet? Not likely!

Jesus and His disciples-

Were 'called out'- which is part of the definition of the word 'ecclessia' that the English word assembly and church are based on.

Were an assembly of saved baptised believers with Jesus as the Head.. (altho the case can be made Judas wasn't saved- counted with them.. but not a member)

They carried the great commandment and the great commission.. Jesus was talking to His disciples as an assembly when He talked about the commission
and commandment..

They had the authority to go and plant more churches.. sent out by what church?

Jesus and His disciples.. the first Christian assembly, church, congregation :)

Mat 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

Jesus- building His church... when you look at the Greek behind this verse.. it can be translated.. 'Will be building'.. as in continuing to build His church He already established with His disciples that carried on as an institution with more church plants.

Also-- Word for Peter.. and rock.. in the Greek are not the same word.. so Jesus is building His church on Himself.. He is 'this rock', not Peter.

So there you go
Click to expand...
In my first post on this thread I said 'built', meaning in physically constructed church - a building referring to the early earthen walled construction on Glastonbury, whish was indeed the first built church, obviously a Christian congregation is a meeting of Christians which could take place anywhere as a meeting. I also meant it in comparison to the establishment of Roman churches, relevant to the thread.
 
wattie

wattie

Senior Member
#11
Feb 24, 2009
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#11
Cup-of-Ruin said:
In my first post on this thread I said 'built', meaning in physically constructed church - a building referring to the early earthen walled construction on Glastonbury, whish was indeed the first built church, obviously a Christian congregation is a meeting of Christians which could take place anywhere as a meeting. I also meant it in comparison to the establishment of Roman churches, relevant to the thread.
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Oh.. okay :)

After reading the earlier post.. I realised you meant a physical building later.. if it is true that the first church building was in AD 35.. then you can't really go back much earlier than that.. guess their were synagogues before that.. but they aren't New Testament places of worship as such.
 
S

SamIam

Guest
#12
#12
Cup-of-Ruin said:
The first Christian Church was built by Joseph of Arimathea in Ireland, this was the first Christian mission.
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i have also heard the first christian church was in ireland also
 
T

thefightinglamb

Guest
#13
#13
I kind of wish I had seen and read this thread before creating the other thread, though it deals with 'history and the Holy Spirit' and not just this topic...

Anyway, I find it interesting that the starter of this thread seems to suggest that those church groups also did what Paul warned against in Romans? Meaning that they were calling themselves followers of Paul or James (for example Paulians, Jamesons or whatever) and not just Christians...and Paul calls them foolish....or did these groups merely call themselves Christians and how long did these groups last, or is this a root that a protestant church claims orgins from...but this is very intiguing...

God bless
tony
 
L

Lindqvist

Guest
#14
#14
SERIOUSLY DROP THE FIRST CHURCH IN IRELAND.

This has been proven countless times, the church itself says that it's a myth and nothing more.
Carbon dating disproves it.
All scientific evidence disproves it.
There's even written evidence proving otherwise.

Not to mention that in previous posts you claimed it was in Glastonbury England.
There is no proof for the things you say Ruin. It is nothing but some sort of Aryan antisionistic propaganda trying to make Jesus white and european.

Not to mention the fact that the earliest church discovered lies recently found in Jordan, in the middle east which is proven by several scientific methods.
 
C

Cup-of-Ruin

Guest
#15
#15
Lindqvist said:
SERIOUSLY DROP THE FIRST CHURCH IN IRELAND.
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Well, Briton actually, if I said Ireland, my mistake, I have been recently studying Jeremiah's mission to Ireland must have got mixed up. LOL.

But yes the first Christian built church in all the world was Glastonbury.

This has been proven countless times, the church itself says that it's a myth and nothing more.
Carbon dating disproves it.
All scientific evidence disproves it.
There's even written evidence proving otherwise.
Click to expand...
No your confused with Glastonbury abbey which was built on the site of the earthen walled Church that Joseph of Arimathea built in AD 35. This is established fact, well documented.

Not to mention that in previous posts you claimed it was in Glastonbury England.
There is no proof for the things you say Ruin. It is nothing but some sort of Aryan antisionistic propaganda trying to make Jesus white and european.
Click to expand...
I am merely stating the fact the Joseph of Arimathea, Lazarus, Mary Magdelan and Martha and sevarl other easly diciples of Jesus Christ traveled to Briton and the Isles soon after the ascension.
Click to expand...
 
wattie

wattie

Senior Member
#16
Feb 24, 2009
3,029
1,023
113
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#16
thefightinglamb said:
I kind of wish I had seen and read this thread before creating the other thread, though it deals with 'history and the Holy Spirit' and not just this topic...

Anyway, I find it interesting that the starter of this thread seems to suggest that those church groups also did what Paul warned against in Romans? Meaning that they were calling themselves followers of Paul or James (for example Paulians, Jamesons or whatever) and not just Christians...and Paul calls them foolish....or did these groups merely call themselves Christians and how long did these groups last, or is this a root that a protestant church claims orgins from...but this is very intiguing...

God bless
tony
Click to expand...
Well.. I these churches were defined by their teaching.. not what they called themselves.. or what others called them..

The names I am not entirely sure yet how they got them.. need to look into it.. but I am inclined to think it was from others calling them them those names.. not themselves.. although even if they did.. they did not have the mistake of being baptised under the wrong authority.. another distinguishing marker of these churches is they were real careful about their authority to baptise and be considered on of Jesus' churches.. anyway..

The 'I follow Apollos thing.. and I follow Paul' thing.. doesn't so much apply to these kind of churches given their importance they place on teh right kind of baptism and that their emphasis as Jesus as the Head of their churches and not man.
 
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