the Holy Spirit and history

[thefightinglamb]

I was intigued by one of the orthodoxes statement that what 'church' or assembly of people has been faithful since Jesus Christ was here on earth...so I went and listened to a lot of his postings on orthodoxy...which though I believe them to be wrong...it is a serious question as to what 'assembly of people' were faithful to Christ when the RCC was corrupted?...And I am not sure of this, I tend to doubt a lot of the orthodox claims, yet their disagreements with the rcc I find I almost uniformly agree with...

Which leads to this thread, which is NOT about the RCC or orthodoxy...but instead about an issue that arose because of listening to the orthodox youtubes...

What is the relationship between history and the Holy Spirit? See a pastor at a church I normally attend says that medicine changes back and forth on what is good or bad for you...and what if faith for those who trace a human history back to Jesus could be the same way? What if, basing your faith on human history of the faithful since Christ, you found out that something you have faith in is wrong? Meaning a hidden document was found that clearly refuted it... Could you not be tossed to and fro like the waves of the sea? One day in history seeing that a certain faith was right, but then studying history the next day, finding out that history actually is against the new belief from history you just had yesterday and changed to, so on forever..So in short, all of your beliefs could change if you could find something in the past that disproofs them...but the tricky thing is the past is not here...so its like fighting a ghost, or rather being haunted by one that could cause you to have faith in anything, if you found it in HISTORY...

Which brings me to the Holy Spirit? It is interesting to me how catholics and rccs can look at scripture and then look at church history to 'discern' or 'uncover' the meaning of a passage...Its like you read it but you don't understand it so, just read in the church what the church believes it means and that IS what it means...thats what I understand by soooo many catholics saying they do not have to read the Bible the Pope does it for them...which is true within the catholic churches, because the individual members do not have to discern what is right but instead just have 'faith' in what the church believes they mean....what individual catholic could come up with all the legalities of the catholic church...it has taken 2000 years to come up with them they claim and no one man could 'uncover' all that depth...

And now the Holy Spirit...See, I believe that the Bible is discernable to those who love Christ...and the truth I have cannot be shaken by history or Judas scrolls or any other mischief, because it is not based on some psuedo history traced back, that could be falsified and change like the sea, but it is beased on the rock of Jesus...He is the One that illumines the darkness in my life and tells me what is evil or good...

But then sometimes I wonder as I said before, and have been asking a lot of people lately as I do not seem to find an assembly of the 'faithful' in any church I have attended, but instead just isolated people everywhere...So is there no one true chruch that is an assembly of just believers today or in the past? I still wonder over this even as I let the Holy Spirit guide me instead of shifting history...

So what is the relationship between the Holy Spirit and History?!?

God bless
tony

[Ryan1976]

To see the relationship between the Holy Spirit and History, here are some timelines, audio studies and general histories:


The Apostolic Fathers and the Church to Constantine

PLAY (Right-click to Download)St. Ignatius was Patriarch of Antioch at the beginning of the second century. He wrote a number of letters concerning the Church and its struggle with Gnosticism while on his journey through Western Asia Minor on his way to martyrdom in about 117AD.
PLAY (Right-click to Download) St. Justin the Philosopher (130-165AD) was a Samaritan follower of Plato's philosophy who converted to Christianity in the early second century and became a Christian Philosopher in Rome. While many of his works are lost, his two surviving Apologies or defenses of Christianity show both what many educated Romans came to admire in Christianity and the early Christian outlook on the paganism and philosophy of the Roman world. Justin's work also includes descriptions of early Christian worship in the period following the Apostles.

PLAY (Right-click to Download) St. Irenaeus (130-202AD) was a disciple of Polycarp in Smyrna, the disciple of the Apostle John. In his struggles with Gnosticism as bishop of Lyons in Gaul, Irenaeus defined the Church by its unity, universality, and continuation of the Apostolic Faith in its scriptures, creed, and preaching

PLAY (Right-click to Download) Clement of Alexandria (150-215AD) was a philosopher who converted to Christianity and ran a school for converts in Alexandria, Egypt. He wrote an extensive handbook on Christian life as well as works on the Christian view of Paganism and philosophy.

PLAY (Right-click to Download) Tertullian of Carthage (160-220AD) was a second century Roman lawyer who converted to Christianity in North Africa . Tertullian wrote extensively about Christian life and faith. He later left the Church to join the rigorist Montanists, and his writings reflect his transition from Orthodoxy to sectarianism.

PLAY (Right-click to Download) Origen of Alexandria (185-254AD) was a zealous and well educated Christian youth who became an instructor of Christian converts during the persecution that killed his father. He was a leading Biblical scholar and Spiritual writer. Unfortunately, while attempting to refute Gnosticsm, his theology was influenced by the Gnostic presupposition that the world was evil.

PLAY (Right-click to Download) Cyprian of Carthage 200-258 AD Bishop of Carthage during the Decian Persecution. Participated in penance and rebaptism controversies.

PLAY (Right-click to Download) Diocletian's Persecution 303-313 AD was a severe and lengthy persecution of Christianity in the Roman Empire ending with the conversion of the Emperor Constantine.

PLAY (Right-click to Download) Donatism 313AD -> was the controversy between rival hierarchies in North Africa based on the question of whether personal sins invalidate sacraments.

PLAY (Right-click to Download) Monasticism in the 4th-5th Centuries surveys monastic literature, types of monasticism, struggle with Gnosticism, conflict between Theophilus and Evagrian’ Origenism, Gregory of Nyssa.



The Definition of Trinitarian and Christological Doctrine

PLAY (Right-click to Download) 1st Ecumenical Council-Nicea 325 AD and the struggle with Arianism, Athanasius, and the controversy over the term “homoousios”.

PLAY (Right-click to Download) 2nd Ecumenical Council-Constantinople 381 AD St. Basil the Great and the doctrine of three hypostases in the Trinity.

PLAY (Right-click to Download) 3rd Ecumenical Council-431 AD Conflict between Nestorius and Cyril of Alexandria over the term “Theotokos” and the question of who was born of Mary.

PLAY (Right-click to Download) 4th Ecumenical Council-450 AD Condemnation of Eutychianism. 2 natures doctrine of Leo’s Tome. Monophysite schism.

PLAY (Right-click to Download) 5th Ecumenical Council-553 AD and the Emperor Justinian Completion of integration of Chalcedon and Cyril of Alexandria’s theology.

PLAY (Right-click to Download) 6th Ecumenical Council-681 AD reaffirms two natural energies and two natural wills of Christ taught by Pope Leo and Maximus the Confessor against the Emperor Heraclius’ Church reunion efforts using Monoenergism and Monothelatism.

Western divergence from the Orthodox Tradition

PLAY (Right-click to Download) St. Augustine of Hippo 385-430 AD Educated convert from Manicheeism who became the founder of a distinct Western theology. Philosophical doctrine of Trinity leading to Filioque, Doctrine of original sin and Pelagian controversy leading to Predestinationism and displacement of ascetic theology.

PLAY (Right-click to Download) The Origins of the Celtic Church 1 of 2, The Churches in Scotland and Ireland arose during the fifth and sixth century flowering of monasticism and produced many important Orthodox monastic saints.

PLAY (Right-click to Download) The Origins of the Celtic Church 2 of 2

PLAY (Right-click to Download) Iconoclasm and 7th Ecumenical Council 787 AD 1 of 2 The doctrine of Iconoclasm and the opposition by St. John of Damascus. Iconoclasm’s effect on the Byzantine Empire and the Papacy.

PLAY (Right-click to Download) Iconoclasm and 7th Ecumenical Council 787 AD 2 of 2

PLAY (Right-click to Download) Filioque, St. Photios and the Council of 879 AD The Emperor Charlemagne and the Filioque, SS. Cyril and Methodius and mission to the Slavs, St. Photius and Council of Constantinople in 879AD condemn the Filioque.

PLAY (Right-click to Download) The Papal Revolution 1046-1518, The Papal Revolution transformed Western Christianity gradually replacing consenus with monarchy and introducing secular rule into the Church.

PLAY (Right-click to Download) Scholasticism and St. Gregory Palamas 11th-14th Century. Scholasticism resulted from the introduction into Christian thought of Aristotle's view of God and man's relationship to the spiritual world. While Scholasticism was largely defeated in the East through the work of Gregory Palamas, it became dominant in the West.

PLAY (Right-click to Download) Unionism at end of Byzantine Empire. The Council of Florence in 1439 in the context of unionism in the late Byzantine Empire as a response to political weakness following the Crusader conquest of Constantinople in 1204AD.

PLAY (Right-click to Download) After The Fall of Constantinople 1453. Historical developments in Byzantium, Europe and Russia after the Fall of Constantinople to the Ottoman Turks in 1453.

PLAY (Right-click to Download) The Protestant Reformation 1516-> Martin Luther, Zwingli, Calvin, Anabaptists, Anglicanism, leading to modern Protestantism.

Orthodoxy in Russia and the Modern Period

PLAY (Right-click to Download) Kievan Period 9-13th Century, Conversion of Russia and development of Kievan Church, Alexander Nevsky.

PLAY (Right-click to Download) Mongel Conquest and Rise of Moscow 14th-15th Century, Division of Russia by Mongol conquest. Rivalry of Moscow and Lithuania. Sergius of Radonezh, Hesychast Monastic Movement. Rise of Moscow – Third Rome.

PLAY (Right-click to Download) Ivan the Terrible and Peter Moghila 16th-17th Century, Ivan the Terrible’ conflict with Metropolitan Phillip. Peter Moghila and westernization of Russian service books in Western Russia.

PLAY (Right-click to Download) Old Believer Schism 17th Century, Bishop Nikon changes service books. Maxim the Greek, Old Believer schism.

PLAY (Right-click to Download) Peter the Great 17th-18th Century, Westernization of Russia and theological education and persecution of the Church.

PLAY (Right-click to Download) Russia 18-19th Centuries, Enlightenment and Romantic influences. Revival of Hesychasm.

PLAY (Right-click to Download) Ottoman Empire 18-19th Centuries, The Church under Turkish rule. Nationalist independence movements.

PLAY (Right-click to Download) Orthodoxy in America, The Alaskan Mission. St. Tikhon, Conversion of Uniates,. Revolution and disintegration of united missionary Church. Immigrant churches. Transition to English and re-emergence of a Pan-Orthodox mission.

[Ryan1976]

History of the Orthodox Church



1. THE APOSTOLIC CHURCH

The Church as a Eucharistic Community | The First Persecutions and Martyrs
The Councils as the Manifestation of the Church Unity


2. THE CHURCH OF THE ECUMENICAL
COUNCILS (323-843)

The Establishment of the Imperial Church | Fighting against the heresies
1. Nicaea - The Defeat of Arianism |
2. Constantinople - The Teaching upon the Holy Spirit
3. Ephesus - The Victory over Nestorianism
4. Chalcedon - The Triumph of the Orthodox Christology
5 & 6. Constantinople - Chalcedon Confirmed - The Victory over Monotheletism
The Dispute over the Holy Icons
7. Nicea - The Victory of the Iconophiles and the Final Triumph of Orthodoxy
3. THE CHURCH OF IMPERIAL BYZANTIUM

Byzantine Christianity about AD 1000 | Relations between Church and state
The Development of Monasticism
Relations with the West | The Crusades | The Mongol invasion
Attempts at ecclesiastical union
Relations with the Western Church | Theological and monastic renaissance

4. ORTHODOXY UNDER THE OTTOMANS (1453-1821)

The Christian ghetto | Relations with the West

5. THE CHURCH OF RUSSIA (1448-1800)

Origin of the Muscovite patriarchate | Relations between patriarch and tsar
The reforms of Peter the Great (reigned 1682-1725)

6. THE ORTHODOX CHURCHES IN THE 19TH CENTURY

Autocephalies in the Balkans | In Greece | In Serbia | In Romania | In Bulgaria
The church in imperial Russia

7. THE ORTHODOX CHURCH SINCE WORLD WAR I

The Russian Revolution and the Soviet period
The Balkans and eastern Europe
The Orthodox Church in the Middle East | Orthodoxy in the United States
The Orthodox diaspora and missions

by Bishop Kallistos Ware

Part I: History.

(Please get the full version of this book at any major bookstore)

Contents:

Introduction. The Beginnings. Byzantium: The Church of the Seven Councils. The Great Schism. The conversion of the Slavs. The Church under Islam. Moscow and St. Petersburg. The twentieth century: Greeks and Arabs. The twentieth century: Diaspora and mission.

The Iconoclastic Crisis. By Rev. Fr. Gabriel Barrow The Schism of the Roman Catholic Church from the Eastern Orthodox. By Archbishop Michael of North and South America The Triumph of the Gospel of Love. By Monk Themistocles (Adamopoulo)
A brief overview of the Eastern Orthodox Church's history and teaching. Some contemporary moral questions. The church building. A final note.

• 1 New Testament era
• 2 Apostolic era (33-100)
• 3 Ante-Nicene era (100-325)
• 4 Nicene era (325-451)
• 5 Byzantine era (451-843)
• 6 Late Byzantine era (843-1054)
• 7 Post-Roman Schism (1054-1453)
• 8 Post-Imperial era (1453-1821)
• 9 Modern era (1821-1917)
• 10 Communist era (1917-1991)
• 11 Post-Communist era (1991-Present)
• 12 Notes
• 13 See also
• 14 Published works
• 15 External links

[Ryan1976]

And we can't forget the writings of the Church Fathers. I only listed a few of the selected works but you can access many more for free at the following link:

http://www.goarch.org/en/resources/fathers


The Writing of the Apostolic Fathers

A collection of writings from the Apostolic Fathers of the Greek Orthodox Christian Church.

• The First Epistle of Clement to the Corinthians
• The Second Epistle of Clement
• The Epistle to Diognetus
• The Epistle of Polycarp to the Philippians
• The Martyrdom of Polycarp
• The Epistles of St. Ignatius, Bishop of Antioch

• The Epistle of Ignatius to the Ephesians
• The Epistle of Ignatius to the Magnesians
• The Epistle of Ignatius to the Trallians
• The Epistle of Ignatius to the Romans
• The Epistle of Ignatius to the Philadelphians
• The Epistle of Ignatius to the Smyrnaeans
• The Epistle of Ignatius to Polycarp

• The Epistle of Barnabas
• Fragments of Papias

THE ANTE-NICENE FATHERS

• The Writings of St. Justin Martyr

• The First Apology of Justin
• The Second Apology of Justin
• Dialogue of Justin
• Justin's Hortatory Address to the Greeks
• Justin on the Sole Government of God
• Fragments of the Lost Work of Justin on the Resurrection
• Other Fragments from the Lost Writings of Justin
• The Martyrdom of the Holy Martyrs
  

• The Writings of St. Irenaeus, Bishop of Lyons

• Against Heresies

• Book I
• Book II
• Book III.
• Book IV.
• Book V.

• The Preaching of the Apostles
• Fragments from the Lost Writings of Irenaeus
  

• Athenagoras

• A Plea For the Christians
• On the Resurrection of the Dead

• Hippolytus

• The Refutation of All Heresies

• Book I.
• Book IV.
• Book V.
• Book VI.
• Book VII.
• Book VIII
• Book IX.
• Book X.

• The Extant Works and Fragments of Hippolytus.

• Part I.-Exegetical. Fragments from Commentaries on Various Books of Scripture.
• Part II.-Dogmatical and Historical.

• Gregory the Wonder-worker

• A Declaration of Faith
• A Metaphrase of the Book of Ecclesiastes
• Canonical Epistle
• The Oration and Panegyric Addressed to Origen
• A Sectional Confession of Faith
• On the Trinity.
• Twelve Topics on the Faith.
• On the Subject of the Soul

• On All the Saints
• On the Gospel According to Matthew

• Dionysius

• Part I.-Containing Various Sections of the Works.
• Part II.-Containing Epistles, or Fragments of Epistles.
• Exegetical Fragments
• I.-A Commentary on the Beginning of Ecclesiastes
• II.-The Gospel According to Luke.
• III.-On Luke XXII. 42, Etc
• IV.-An Exposition of Luke XXII. 46, Etc
• V.-On John VIII. 12
• VI.-Of the One Substance
• VII.-On the Reception of the Lapsed to Penitence

• Phileas

• An Exposition of the Chapters of the Acts of the Apostles

• Peter, Bishop of Alexandria

• The Genuine Acts of Peter
• The Canonical Epistle
• Fragments from the Writings of Peter.

• Alexander

• Epistles on the Arian Heresy

• Apostolic Teaching and Constitutions

• The Lord's Teaching Through the Twelve Apostles to the Nations
• Constitutions of the Holy Apostles

• Book I.
• Book II.
• Book III.
• Book IV.
• Book V.
• Book VI.
• Book VII.
• Book VIII.

• The Ecclesiastical Canons of the Same Holy Apostles.11

THE NICENE AND POST-NICENE FATHERS

• Eusebius

• Church History

• Book I.
• Book II.
• Book III.
• Book IV.
• Book V.
• Book VI.
• Book VII.
• Book VIII.
• Book IX.
• Book X.

[thefightinglamb]

Was wondering about the Jews? I just thought that the Jews were God's chosen people, and had a 'tradition' of being right since the time of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob...and yet tradition did not save them from becoming completely futile...it is the same still, just because you have 'history' does not mean it will protect you from becoming vain in your thinking, and teaching traditions of man rather than traditions of God...

I write this because I see during Jesus's life, the Pharisees, Sadduccees and Scribes could have claimed this 'golden history' that you speak of, and yet they were far from Him, they even hated the actual God, because they hated his Son...

And also in the Old Testament you constantly have the whole Israelite nation becoming profane, though they were favored by God, and then you have individuals willing to stand up to all of them and declare the Word of the Lord...

Because this brings up anothering interesting point for those who have faith in 'church history', what right did Jesus have being an individual person to stand up to the Jewish 'congregations' on what is right? WHat right does Jeremiah have to denounce the whole church religiousity of his day? Was there was 'sacred tradition'? there? I don't think so.

The Lord be with all those who love His Son
tony

[Ryan1976]

Was wondering about the Jews? I just thought that the Jews were God's chosen people, and had a 'tradition' of being right since the time of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob...

Their Holy Traditions (which are more purely reflected in Christian Holy Tradition) isn't that they collectively were "right". God established Holy Tradition. Jesus even fulfilled prophecy that isn't found in text but is found only in Holy Tradition. Their are a lot of references to (Jewish) Tradition in the New Testament.

and yet tradition did not save them from becoming completely futile...it is the same still, just because you have 'history' does not mean it will protect you from becoming vain in your thinking, and teaching traditions of man rather than traditions of God...

Absolutely. I agree. Just because you have Holy Tradition won't save you any more than your ability to read the scriptures. These Holy "things" are just there to help us along The Way. Part of the fullness of Christ. He's very generous.

I write this because I see during Jesus's life, the Pharisees, Sadduccees and Scribes could have claimed this 'golden history' that you speak of, and yet they were far from Him, they even hated the actual God, because they hated his Son...

True that. They didn't "claim" this history but they were definitely participating in it. Without what God established before them they wouldn't have even been Pharisees (Sadduccees are another story, they rejected Resurrection of the dead and angels and stuff like that and were already in mucho trouble). Paul was a Pharisee. Remember when Jesus said to obey the Pharisees because they sit on Moses seat? Jesus, our Lord and Savior, instructed them to obey the Pharisees b/c they sat on Moses seat but not to do AS they do.

And also in the Old Testament you constantly have the whole Israelite nation becoming profane, though they were favored by God, and then you have individuals willing to stand up to all of them and declare the Word of the Lord...

Well, the Levites were set apart at the foot of the mountain. There were always, within the many sects and movements of Judaism, peoples set apart. The woman at the well for instance. She's samaratin. The Samaritans didn't worship at the same Temple that the mainstream Jews did. They also were strictly Torah. So their belief was that only the 5 books of Moses were inspired and that there would be no other books until the messiah came. They believed there would be no more prophets after that Torah period until the messiah came. That's why when the woman at the well believes Jesus to be a prophet, what she was actually saying as a Samaritan was that Jesus was THE prophet, the messiah to come. To believe this meant that she had to acknowledge that the Messiah didn't recognize their temple in the same way the other temple pointed toward Himself. She had to acknowledge that, though the majority of Samaritans would probably reject Jesus, that he was in fact, the messiah.

My point is that being Orthodox doesn't gaurantee salvation. Just because you have been given all the opportunity to accept and embrace the fullness of His Church doesn't mean you've got it made. It would be the equivalent of the protestant tradition that might require you to just say the sinners prayer, let him into your heart and then walk around thinking you've got it made.

The Jewish Tradtion about Martyrs sitting down to eath with or being greeted in the Kingdom by Abraham, Isaac and Jacob was validated by Jesus when he said many will come from the east and west and sit down with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob (hope I didn't get the names wrong). He was basically telling the listeners that he was the messiah because East and West were gentile territory and more than that, they wouldn't just be you're run of the mill elect, but the creme de la creme - Martyrs.

Because this brings up anothering interesting point for those who have faith in 'church history'...

Well, we have faith in God that He participates and intervenes in this world and because we experience this linear and yet constant present sandwiched by the future and the past, we see the past, where God interacted with us, as special. For instance, if, say, God inspired men to canonize which books were inspired, then you can place your faith in those means decisions that were led by the Holy Spirit. Even though that didn't occur until a few hundred years after the ascension of The Lord.

what right did Jesus have being an individual person to stand up to the Jewish 'congregations' on what is right? WHat right does Jeremiah have to denounce the whole church religiousity of his day? Was there was 'sacred tradition'? there? I don't think so.

There's always been Holy Tradition. Ever since Moses methinks. Puts the texts into context and the texts help keep the Traditions in check. Chrisitans and Jews have been Liturgical, Sacramental (though in a much different way), and relied on Holy Tradition, ever since they were called Chrisitans/Jews.

Wasn't until the past hundred years that people decided to ditch everything their forefathers handed them and go at it alone.



non mihi solum

God bless

[thefightinglamb]

I also find it interesting that even in your first letter you acknowledged that certain 'significant' letters had been 'lost' by the early "fathers" of your orthodox church...so as my point in beginning this thread states, no doubt more history has been lost then we still have...because to record EVERYTHING that happened would be exhaustive...and also, no doubt more was written and lost then what remains that has been constituted to reconstruct what happened...

So.......as I said at first, it is not only possible, but likely that there are many 'significant documents/letters/essays' by the early true Christians that have been lost, which must be somewhat problematic if you base your life on the 'traditions of men (or of the church if-you-want-to-call-it-that)' because significant letters may resurface at sometime that are important that show 'false teachings/rituals' of later generations even within your particular church...just like the jews, who could have claimed proper history, but their traditions had become futile as I said before....teaching as doctrine the commands of man as Jesus states...

But I do NOT think Christians go it ALONE. I think they are connected intricately in a way that I have found no physical church yet to have attained...

The Lord be with you
tony

[Ryan1976]

I also find it interesting that even in your first letter you acknowledged that certain 'significant' letters had been 'lost' by the early "fathers" of your orthodox church...so as my point in beginning this thread states, no doubt more history has been lost then we still have...because to record EVERYTHING that happened would be exhaustive...and also, no doubt more was written and lost then what remains that has been constituted to reconstruct what happened...

???

Do we have any of the original books of the bible? All we have is what was handed down to us. There were letters that Paul wrote that we know he wrote that were lost or were damaged or whatever.

So.......as I said at first, it is not only possible, but likely that there are many 'significant documents/letters/essays' by the early true Christians that have been lost, which must be somewhat problematic if you base your life on the 'traditions of men (or of the church if-you-want-to-call-it-that)' because significant letters may resurface at sometime that are important that show 'false teachings/rituals' of later generations even within your particular church...just like the jews, who could have claimed proper history, but their traditions had become futile as I said before....teaching as doctrine the commands of man as Jesus states...

I think you misunderstand. Traditions and teachings are preserved in the life of The Church. They aren't dependent on paper or exist as a collection of documents. The Traditions are living. You could burn the externals and we'd still have Tradition.

Somewhere on this board I posted a bunch of links on what Tradition is. If you'd like to read a fuller explanation of what Tradition is and is not and how it works and has continuity with Judaism, etc. it's there.

God bless