How Can We Agree, But Still Be So Far Apart?

[Radius]

I think some of us use the Scriptures in some really interesting ways to get their point across. Something my pastor said once that holds true (at least to this board) is:

“There's a way to preach the Bible unbiblically...You can use the Bible as the springboard for all kinds of ideas, can't you? Look around in here and find something that fits your fancy and then launch a rocket off it. People say, 'That was amazing, wasn't it? Remarkable what he got out of that.' Well of course it is because he put it in before he got it out.”

I guess the big difference in opinions is:

Faith + Works = Salvation

VS.

Faith alone (works are followed to be in fellowship with God and to be more like him) = salvation.

How can we be so far apart on this issue being Christians? Does the Bible clearly state one position other on this matter?

Why so much ambiguity?

 

[Professor]

I have looked at several passages. Here is what I noted.
Paul tell us that we are saved through faith and that this is a gift from God, not the result of works (see, for example, Ephesians 2:8-9). But he also says this: we are created for good works to be our way of life (Ephesians 2:10).
James says that faith without works is dead (James 2:17).
Jesus says, when someone asks him if only a few will be saved, that we should "strive to enter through the narrow gate" (Luke 13:23-24).
This seemingly suggests that discipline might be necessary for salvation. We are saved by faith, as a gift from God, but we are called to do good works; indeed, we want to do good works. If our Christian life is totally void of good works, then perhaps we ought to revisit our salvation.

I think some of us use the Scriptures in some really interesting ways to get their point across. Something my pastor said once that holds true (at least to this board) is:

“There's a way to preach the Bible unbiblically...You can use the Bible as the springboard for all kinds of ideas, can't you? Look around in here and find something that fits your fancy and then launch a rocket off it. People say, 'That was amazing, wasn't it? Remarkable what he got out of that.' Well of course it is because he put it in before he got it out.”

I guess the big difference in opinions is:

Faith + Works = Salvation

VS.

Faith alone (works are followed to be in fellowship with God and to be more like him) = salvation.

How can we be so far apart on this issue being Christians? Does the Bible clearly state one position other on this matter?

Why so much ambiguity?

 

[tribesman]

I have looked at several passages. Here is what I noted.
Paul tell us that we are saved through faith and that this is a gift from God, not the result of works (see, for example, Ephesians 2:8-9). But he also says this: we are created for good works to be our way of life (Ephesians 2:10).
James says that faith without works is dead (James 2:17).
Jesus says, when someone asks him if only a few will be saved, that we should "strive to enter through the narrow gate" (Luke 13:23-24).
This seemingly suggests that discipline might be necessary for salvation. We are saved by faith, as a gift from God, but we are called to do good works; indeed, we want to do good works. If our Christian life is totally void of good works, then perhaps we ought to revisit our salvation.

How would you define discipline and good works?

 

[Professor]

Good works:
Those actions such as described by Jesus in Matthew 25:35ff
"When I was hungry...
When I was thirsty...
When I was a stranger...
When I was naked...
When I was sick...
When I was in prison..."

Discipline:
1. Trying to live the fruits of the Spirit: love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, generosity, faithfulness, gentleness, and self control (Galatians 5:22-23).
2. Trying to avoid engaging in the various lists of sins found throughout the New Testament, such as found in, for example, 1 Corinthians 6:9-10.

How would you define discipline and good works?

 

[Radius]

I have looked at several passages. Here is what I noted.
Paul tell us that we are saved through faith and that this is a gift from God, not the result of works (see, for example, Ephesians 2:8-9). But he also says this: we are created for good works to be our way of life (Ephesians 2:10).
James says that faith without works is dead (James 2:17).
Jesus says, when someone asks him if only a few will be saved, that we should "strive to enter through the narrow gate" (Luke 13:23-24).
This seemingly suggests that discipline might be necessary for salvation. We are saved by faith, as a gift from God, but we are called to do good works; indeed, we want to do good works. If our Christian life is totally void of good works, then perhaps we ought to revisit our salvation.

This is what I believe, also.

 

[mark54]

I think some of us use the Scriptures in some really interesting ways to get their point across. Something my pastor said once that holds true (at least to this board) is:

“There's a way to preach the Bible unbiblically...You can use the Bible as the springboard for all kinds of ideas, can't you? Look around in here and find something that fits your fancy and then launch a rocket off it. People say, 'That was amazing, wasn't it? Remarkable what he got out of that.' Well of course it is because he put it in before he got it out.”

I guess the big difference in opinions is:

Faith + Works = Salvation

VS.

Faith alone (works are followed to be in fellowship with God and to be more like him) = salvation.

How can we be so far apart on this issue being Christians? Does the Bible clearly state one position other on this matter?

Why so much ambiguity?

Not having a righteousness of my own(self righteousness) that comes from the law, but that which is by faith in Christ, the righteousness that comnes from God and is by faith(Phil3:9)

I would say that is one reason some may well not accept faith alone

And I guess some may stress faith alone so much because they do not want to yield from the heart to God what he requires, so they cannot progress in the faith as far as in their hearts they know should be the case, so they are continually trying to convince themsedlves they are OK because it is faith alone



Then there is good old fashioned pride

Christians ain't perfect you know

But ultimately there is only one way we can be as one, in the Spirit, so if we all yielded fully to the Holy Spirit we would all be as one, but..................

 

[Ariel82]

order and what they have faith in...

one says....

faith....works...salvation

other

faith... salvation... works....

personally think you have to be cleansed before working otherwise your works get filthy...

 

[crossnote]

The supporting verse for 'faith alone' is...
For we hold that one is justified by faith apart from works of the law. (Rom 3:28)

Justification should not be confused (melded together) with our fruit although there is a 'simultaneousness' regarding the two.
A man's faith is seen for what it is by God and God alone. On the basis of faith in Jesus Christ (and only on that basis) God justifies the ungodly (Rom 4:5). That is, God counts the faith He sees as righteousness.
The fruit is what man sees in the christian, he does not see another's faith. A man is not justified by his fruit. Faith is accompanied by fruit even if the firstfruits is a mere giving of thanks.
There is more to our salvation than justification e.g. the imparting of the Holy Spirit and our union with Him but in all these other aspects we must remember that justification is by faith alone i.e. 'apart from works.

Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.
(Rom 3:28)

But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
(Rom 4:5)

 

[tribesman]

Good works:
Those actions such as described by Jesus in Matthew 25:35ff
"When I was hungry...
When I was thirsty...
When I was a stranger...
When I was naked...
When I was sick...
When I was in prison..."

Agreed here.

Discipline:
1. Trying to live the fruits of the Spirit: love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, generosity, faithfulness, gentleness, and self control (Galatians 5:22-23).

Also here.

2. Trying to avoid engaging in the various lists of sins found throughout the New Testament, such as found in, for example, 1 Corinthians 6:9-10.

Right. How about avoiding what is spoken of for example in Matt.15:18-20?

 

[Powemm]

love cleans a whole multitude of things up

 

[loveme1]

love cleans a whole multitude of things up

The last few days Love and Forgiveness have been running through my mind.... does it not sum it all up?

 

[Biblestudy]

Hi Radius

I have often contemplated the same question. Here are a few thoughts that i found interesting that corroborate your understanding as indicated above. Pointing to the fact that coupled with our faith, we have to obey and take action in order to gain salvation? Let me know what you think.


Eph. 2:8, 9, “By grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God—not because of works, lest any man should boast.”
(The entire provision for salvation is an expression of God’s undeserved kindness. There is no way that a descendant of Adam can gain salvation on his own, no matter how noble his works are. Salvation is a gift from God given to those who put faith in the sin-atoning value of the sacrifice of his Son.)


Heb. 5:9, "He [Jesus] became the source of eternal salvation to all who obey him.”
(Does this conflict with the statement that Christians are “saved through faith”? Not at all. Obedience simply demonstrates that their faith is genuine.)


Jas. 2:14, 26, "What does it profit, my brethren, if a man says he has faith but has not works? Can his faith save him? For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so faith apart from works is dead.”
(A person does not earn salvation by his works. But anyone who has genuine faith will have works to go with it—works of obedience to the commands of God and Christ, works that demonstrate his faith and love. Without such works, his faith is dead.)

Acts 16:30, 31, RS: “‘Men, what must I do to be saved?’ And they [Paul and Silas] said, ‘Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.’”
(If that man and his household truly believed, would they not act in harmony with their belief? Certainly.)

 

[Nancyer]

This seems to get debated again and again, not only here on CC but within the Christian community as a whole. I know there are differing scriptures, especially between the OT & NT. But I maintain that we are saved as a gift of grace from God, for which we are completely undeserving - hence the term grace. If we had to earn it man would compare how much grace or salvation he earned compared to others ("lest he should boast").

I am grateful God doesn't hold me accountable for my actions prior to coming to Him. He remembers not my transgressions but forgives and forgets.

Thank you, my God, I pray I live up to your desire for and of me.

 

[sinless]

I think some of us use the Scriptures in some really interesting ways to get their point across. Something my pastor said once that holds true (at least to this board) is:

“There's a way to preach the Bible unbiblically...You can use the Bible as the springboard for all kinds of ideas, can't you? Look around in here and find something that fits your fancy and then launch a rocket off it. People say, 'That was amazing, wasn't it? Remarkable what he got out of that.' Well of course it is because he put it in before he got it out.”

I guess the big difference in opinions is:

Faith + Works = Salvation

VS.

Faith alone (works are followed to be in fellowship with God and to be more like him) = salvation.

How can we be so far apart on this issue being Christians? Does the Bible clearly state one position other on this matter?

Why so much ambiguity?

Well the main problem I have with faith alone is the only time the phrase faith alone or any derivative thereof is use in the whole of scripture is to say we are NOT justified by faith alone James 2:24. Nowhere does it say salvation comes from faith alone, so I don't see why it is taught.

However there are multitude of doctrines taught in our churches that have little to no scriptural basis

On the other hand we could go on and on about how many time scripture says we are going to be judged according to our works

 

[sinless]

My wife is calling me to bed, I will post those passages for you in the A.M.

 

[terryshields]

Its quite clear from what Jesus said at the end judgement their were many Christians who never got in and were rejected even though they believed and did miracles and taught, they were refuse even though they had faith,their faith didnt save them because they had no works,this passage from Christ puts the wide spread Gospel of Grace in question

 

[sinless]

Well the main problem I have with faith alone is the only time the phrase faith alone or any derivative thereof is use in the whole of scripture is to say we are NOT justified by faith alone James 2:24. Nowhere does it say salvation comes from faith alone, so I don't see why it is taught.

However there are multitude of doctrines taught in our churches that have little to no scriptural basis

On the other hand we could go on and on about how many time scripture says we are going to be judged according to our works

Here are just a few


Matthew 16:27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

Romans 2:6 Who will render to every man according to his works

Ephesians 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Revelation 2:23b:...I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.

 

[willfollowsGod]

Yeah, but then there are some cases. In which the person who accepts Christ into their life is on their deathbed and cannot do the works that would be done as a result of coming to Christ. For example, the thief on the cross and others like that. God bless.

 

[RedTent]

I WISH we could simply know in our very being what God means for us to know about these things.

It seems to me that when we have differences, we must get out every bible verse about our subject, every single one OT and NT, and read them all, knowing that each and every one is spiritual truth. I think we should also get out history books, not one but several, about the period each bible book was written in, so we know how people understood the word of God. For instance, what would be the headlines of the time if they had newspapers when Paul was writing to the Galatains. Then, just as putting together a jigsaw puzzle, each piece has to fit into place.

It is like being on a teeter totter. Too much weight on any one side and it just won't go.

 

[damsel-f1sh]

Perhaps the problem of Faith Alone vs. Good Works is the problem of visibility.

Faith is not a physical thing that other people can measure or observe. Faith is internal.

Good works (often seen as resulting from the above faith) are visible to all and measurable. Works are external.

For some, a lack of those visible faith symptoms may suggest a lack of the internal faith. It's the same argument that takes place between Behaviorist and Humanistic Psychology. Does what is not measurable or observable actually exist?