When does the rapture occur?

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popeye

Guest
Revelation 14:

[SUP]14[/SUP] And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat
like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.


This is Jesus.


And, you are saying that the event occurs "during the Great Tribulation"...?


:)
according to the word.

proves harvest in not one dimensional.
 

Ahwatukee

Senior Member
Mar 12, 2015
11,159
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Mark 13:24-27 - "But in those days after the tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light. And the stars of heaven shall fall and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken. And then (after the tribulation) shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. And then (after the tribulation) shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven."
Hello Beloved777,

* The Resurrection of the dead in Christ and the transforming of the living believers (John 14:1-3, 1 Thes.4:13-18, 1 Cor.15:51-53)

* The return of the Lord to the earth to end the age (Mt.24:29-31, Rev.19:11-21)

The two events listed above are two separate events. The fist event is the appearing of the Lord to resurrect the dead in Christ and to remove the living believers from the earth prior to God's wrath being poured out. The second event is when Christ returns, physically and visually to the earth to end the age and establish his millennial kingdom. Mark 13:24-27, as well as Mt.24, which are both referring to the same event, is in regards to the return of the Lord to the earth to end the age. Those people that that are being gathered by the angels is not the resurrection of the church, but are the great tribulation saints and Israel who will have survived through the last 3 1/2 years of that seven year period. When the resurrection takes place, the church is not gathered by angels, but by the Lord himself. Also, when we are resurrected and the living are changed, it will be with those immortal, glorified bodies that will have their own power. Furthermore, the church is not here during the time of God's wrath and that because scripture states that we are not appointed to suffer wrath and that Jesus has rescued us from it by taking upon himself the wrath that we deserve.

Jesus said, "I will build my church and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it" and therefore, he is not going to built his church and then send it through his wrath.
 

PlainWord

Senior Member
Jun 11, 2013
7,080
151
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Hello Beloved777,

* The Resurrection of the dead in Christ and the transforming of the living believers (John 14:1-3, 1 Thes.4:13-18, 1 Cor.15:51-53)

* The return of the Lord to the earth to end the age (Mt.24:29-31, Rev.19:11-21)

The two events listed above are two separate events. The fist event is the appearing of the Lord to resurrect the dead in Christ and to remove the living believers from the earth prior to God's wrath being poured out. The second event is when Christ returns, physically and visually to the earth to end the age and establish his millennial kingdom. Mark 13:24-27, as well as Mt.24, which are both referring to the same event, is in regards to the return of the Lord to the earth to end the age. Those people that that are being gathered by the angels is not the resurrection of the church, but are the great tribulation saints and Israel who will have survived through the last 3 1/2 years of that seven year period. When the resurrection takes place, the church is not gathered by angels, but by the Lord himself. Also, when we are resurrected and the living are changed, it will be with those immortal, glorified bodies that will have their own power. Furthermore, the church is not here during the time of God's wrath and that because scripture states that we are not appointed to suffer wrath and that Jesus has rescued us from it by taking upon himself the wrath that we deserve.

Jesus said, "I will build my church and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it" and therefore, he is not going to built his church and then send it through his wrath.
What becomes of the "Tribulation Saints" who die after the rapture/resurrection? How do they get their glorified bodies and which passage describes this event for them? Where in the below passage do the Trib Saints get raptured?

[SUP]22 [/SUP]For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. [SUP]23 [/SUP]But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming. [SUP]24 [/SUP]Then comes the end...


 
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truthman8

Guest
There's no reason to believe any of that. There are not two Second Comings. First, we were all in error about the last half of the seven years. Only the last 45 days of the 3.5 years, or 1335 days of Daniel, are the Great Tribulation. It will culminate in a brief nuclear war, described by the sun turning dark and the moon turning to blood. Jesus and the angelic host interrupt this, because as Jesus said himself, "unless that time were shortened, no flesh would be saved." Notice he says "flesh", and not people or Israel. He means all corporeal life forms - nuclear devastation. When he lands on the Mount of Olives, he lands in force, not by himself. He ends the kingdom of the Beast that controls the entire area, forcing them out and moving to recruit the armies of Armageddon. He then removes the abomination of desolation, the TV broadcasting station on a wing of the temple mentioned in Daniel, and prepares it for the 8th Day, which enables the Rapture. What we call the "rapture" is actually the reconnecting of all believers to God, the purpose of God's plan since the disconnection from Adam. The first resurrection was baffling until I realized that this is the resurrection of only those who went through the Middle East holocaust, and who didn't have the mark of the Beast on them. They reign in Jerusalem with Christ, but those who have the mark do not live again until the end of Millennium. But the remainder of resurrections will come at other times. However, those saints who are alive at the time of the 8th Day must be taken off because they have not died, and will not die anymore. So they have to give place to those who have died and must be resurrected in new bodies . How this all plays out I don't know. But there's no evidence of two Advents. The first resurrection doesn't require Christ to come again, and starts probable after the Millennium starts after Armageddon.
 
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popeye

Guest
There's no reason to believe any of that. There are not two Second Comings. First, we were all in error about the last half of the seven years. Only the last 45 days of the 3.5 years, or 1335 days of Daniel, are the Great Tribulation. It will culminate in a brief nuclear war, described by the sun turning dark and the moon turning to blood. Jesus and the angelic host interrupt this, because as Jesus said himself, "unless that time were shortened, no flesh would be saved." Notice he says "flesh", and not people or Israel. He means all corporeal life forms - nuclear devastation. When he lands on the Mount of Olives, he lands in force, not by himself. He ends the kingdom of the Beast that controls the entire area, forcing them out and moving to recruit the armies of Armageddon. He then removes the abomination of desolation, the TV broadcasting station on a wing of the temple mentioned in Daniel, and prepares it for the 8th Day, which enables the Rapture. What we call the "rapture" is actually the reconnecting of all believers to God, the purpose of God's plan since the disconnection from Adam. The first resurrection was baffling until I realized that this is the resurrection of only those who went through the Middle East holocaust, and who didn't have the mark of the Beast on them. They reign in Jerusalem with Christ, but those who have the mark do not live again until the end of Millennium. But the remainder of resurrections will come at other times. However, those saints who are alive at the time of the 8th Day must be taken off because they have not died, and will not die anymore. So they have to give place to those who have died and must be resurrected in new bodies . How this all plays out I don't know. But there's no evidence of two Advents. The first resurrection doesn't require Christ to come again, and starts probable after the Millennium starts after Armageddon.
No.

1st resurrection is the harvest of God's people. Harvest is four parts (Leviticus).
First fruits is Jesus.
Main is the dead in Christ and the 5 wise virgins (mat 25)
Corners and gleaners are the Jews and stragglers

All during the GT. (and before with the rapture)

You will never see any other position with that knowledge. They skip it,and all the pretrib verses
 
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truthman8

Guest
I had to add another replay. The End of the Age as spoken by Paul has to be the time after the millennium ends. There is another battle, then the Judgment begins. This is the true end, when all authority is ended and the Judgment begins.
 

Ahwatukee

Senior Member
Mar 12, 2015
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Greetings truthman8,

There's no reason to believe any of that. There are not two Second Comings.
You are correct in that, there are not two second comings. When Jesus comes to gather the church, he is not returning to the earth, but the dead and the living will be caught up to meet him in the air where he will take us back to the Father's house according to his promise. His actual return to the earth takes place after God's wrath has been completed, which is shortly after the 7th bowl has been poured out. Jesus himself reveals this when at the pouring out of the 6th bowl he interjects with the following:

"Behold, I am coming like a thief. Blessed is the one watching and keeping his garments, so that he should not walk naked and they might see his shame."

First, we were all in error about the last half of the seven years. Only the last 45 days of the 3.5 years, or 1335 days of Daniel, are the Great Tribulation.
When making a claim, we must have scripture to support it. That said, the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, which run throughout the entire seven years will be the fulfillment of God's wrath. In Mt.24:15, Jesus identified the great tribulation as beginning from the setting up of the abomination which according to Dan.9:27, which he was quoting from, is set up in the middle of the seven years. Regarding "only the last 45 days" being the great tribulation, the 5th trumpet alone is five months in duration, which kills that idea. The mention of 1290 and 1335 days are 30 and 45 days beyond the 1260 days (3 1/2 years). Obviously there will be something going on during those 75 days after the 3 1/2 mark, which for one could be the judgment of the sheep and the goats. Scripture just does not go into detail as to what is happening during those extra days mentioned. What scripture does make clear is that the 7th bowl concludes the wrath of God, for after it has been poured out, a loud voice comes from the throne in the temple, saying, “It is done!”

It will culminate in a brief nuclear war, described by the sun turning dark and the moon turning to blood. Jesus and the angelic host interrupt this, because as Jesus said himself, "unless that time were shortened, no flesh would be saved."
The sun turning dark and the moon not giving its light and the stars falling from heaven to the earth is caused by God and is a sign of the Lord's immediate return to the earth. The reason that Jesus said "unless that time were shortened, no flesh would be saved" is not because of nuclear war, but because of the severity of God's wrath, which will decimate the population of the earth and dismantle all human government. With just the 4th seal and the 6th trumpet alone, being a fourth and a third of the earth's population respectively, the fatalities would be just over 4 billion and that is not counting the fatalities as a result of trumpets 1 thru 3 and the bowl judgments. No doubt nuclear weapons will be involved, which is what I believe is what will take place when the beast and the ten kings destroy Mystery Babylon with fire.

He then removes the abomination of desolation, the TV broadcasting station on a wing of the temple mentioned in Daniel, and prepares it for the 8th Day, which enables the Rapture.
The problem with the "Rapture" that is, the gathering of the church, dead and living, taking place after Christ has returned to end the age is that, it would put the church through the entire wrath of God, which Jesus rescued us from (1 Thes.1:10) and which believer's are not appointed to suffer (1 Thes.5:9). The whole purpose of the living being gathered at the time of the resurrection, is to remove us from the earth prior to God's wrath being poured out, which begins with the opening of the first seal.

The first resurrection was baffling until I realized that this is the resurrection of only those who went through the Middle East holocaust, and who didn't have the mark of the Beast on them.
The above is all conjecture, having no scriptural support that it is only speaking about the holocaust. Furthermore, the mark of the beast has yet to come into being as a requirement for buying and selling (crediting and debiting), but will become mandatory as the only means of crediting and debiting one's bank account during the time of the beasts reign during that last 3 1/2 years.

but those who have the mark do not live again until the end of Millennium.
After the millennium the great white throne judgment takes place, which will include all the unrighteous throughout all of history, who will be resurrected and stand before God and will be held accountable for every idle word, every sin they ever committed.

The first resurrection doesn't require Christ to come again, and starts probable after the Millennium starts after Armageddon.
The promise: (John 14:1-3)
"
In My Father’s house are many dwelling places; if it were not so, I would have told you; for I go to prepare a place for you. If I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself, that where I am, there you may be also."

The fulfillment: (1 Thes.4:13-18)
"
For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord."

The return of the Lord to end of the age:
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And I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse, and He who sat on it is called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and wages war. His eyes are a flame of fire, and on His head are many diadems; and He has a name written on Him which no one knows except Himself. He is clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God. And the armies which are in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, were following Him on white horses. From His mouth comes a sharp sword, so that with it He may strike down the nations, and He will rule them with a rod of iron; and He treads the wine press of the fierce wrath of God, the Almighty. And on His robe and on His thigh He has a name written, “KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.” Then I saw an angel standing in the sun, and he cried out with a loud voice, saying to all the birds which fly in midheaven, “Come, assemble for the great supper of God, so that you may eat the flesh of kings and the flesh of commanders and the flesh of mighty men and the flesh of horses and of those who sit on them and the flesh of all men, both free men and slaves, and small and great.” And I saw the beast and the kings of the earth and their armies assembled to make war against Him who sat on the horse and against His army. And the beast was seized, and with him the false prophet who performed the signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image; these two were thrown alive into the lake of fire which burns with brimstone. And the rest were killed with the sword which came from the mouth of Him who sat on the horse, and all the birds were filled with their flesh.

The Church/Bride:
"They will wage war against the Lamb, but the Lamb will triumph over them because he is Lord of lords and King of kings—and with him will be his called, chosen and faithful followers.”

"Hallelujah! For our Lord God Almighty reigns. Let us rejoice and be glad and give him glory! For the wedding of the Lamb has come, and his bride has made herself ready. Fine linen, bright and clean, was given her to wear.”

"And the armies which are in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, were following Him on white horses."

As is demonstrated above, the Bride/Church is seen in heaven during the time of God's wrath and will be receiving her fine linen, white and clean and are those called, chosen and faithful followers who will be following the Lord out of heaven riding on white horses and wearing her fine linen, bright and clean.
 
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PlainWord

Senior Member
Jun 11, 2013
7,080
151
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I guess no pre-tribber wants to take a crack at this?

Where is the rapture/resurrection located in this passage from 1 Cor 15?

[SUP]22 [/SUP]For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. [SUP]23 [/SUP]But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming. [SUP]24 [/SUP]Then comes the end...

Paul, who of course wrote the famous so-call rapture passage of 1 Thes 4, tells us clearly that there are two resurrections. The first was Christ, then those who are Christ's at His coming then the end.