When does the rapture occur?
- Thread starter Elin
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
No one says He does. Why do you assume God is killing His own people? The Tribulation is the Wrath of Satan. The Tribulation will be lead by the Man of Sin (which many call AntiChrist). This Man of Sin will come from Turkey. It will be Turkey that brokers the 7 year Peace Deal. He will lead a coalition of forces to include Turkey, Syria, Iraq, Iran and 6 others. He will attack and behead Christians and Jews everywhere within his territory with the exception of the Church of Philadelphia located in Turkey, which miraculously is spared.
The Man of Sin will wage war with his southern Arab nations, especially Saudi Arabia and Egypt which he will conquer. He will virtually wipe out Israel and declare himself above all called god, even Allah, which will infuriate many Muslims. He will destroy MECCA so that only he can be worshiped. He will call for the killing of Christians and Jews globally and his followers in those countries will obey and kill many. THIS IS THE GREAT TRIBULATION.
Anyone still think this is from God? God puts a stop to it then repays in double strength.
The Man of Sin will wage war with his southern Arab nations, especially Saudi Arabia and Egypt which he will conquer. He will virtually wipe out Israel and declare himself above all called god, even Allah, which will infuriate many Muslims. He will destroy MECCA so that only he can be worshiped. He will call for the killing of Christians and Jews globally and his followers in those countries will obey and kill many. THIS IS THE GREAT TRIBULATION.
Anyone still think this is from God? God puts a stop to it then repays in double strength.
It's quite simple really. We have to be gathered to Christ when He returns so that we can enter His millennial kingdom and reign with Him. But keep in mind, there will be just a remnant of believers left on earth when Christ returns. The vast majority of Christians within the territory of the Man of Sin will be slaughtered (Great Multitude in Heaven, Rev 7). The ELECT remnant are gathered by angels and fight with Christ at Armageddon then reign with Him for 1,000 years.
The first resurrection are the firstfruits whom where beheaded during the Tribulation. These did not take the Mark of the Beast or his name, or the number of his name. They live and reign for 1,000 years. The rest of the dead do not live again until the 1,000 years are over. They return with God (1 Thes 4:14). This is when all the rest of the dead are raised and the saints still in mortal bodies are changed and caught up to be with them. At this point death is defeated and we are all in spiritual bodies. The old heaven and earth are dissolved and the new heaven on earth is created and we all enter eternal life.
There is an unrighteous deception coming. Those deceived will perish (physically). Those not deceived, who keep their faith and live through the Tribulation will be gathered by Christ upon His return. There is no rapture before this. Anyone who calls upon the name of the Lord when he returns will be saved PERIOD!!
The first resurrection are the firstfruits whom where beheaded during the Tribulation. These did not take the Mark of the Beast or his name, or the number of his name. They live and reign for 1,000 years. The rest of the dead do not live again until the 1,000 years are over. They return with God (1 Thes 4:14). This is when all the rest of the dead are raised and the saints still in mortal bodies are changed and caught up to be with them. At this point death is defeated and we are all in spiritual bodies. The old heaven and earth are dissolved and the new heaven on earth is created and we all enter eternal life.
There is an unrighteous deception coming. Those deceived will perish (physically). Those not deceived, who keep their faith and live through the Tribulation will be gathered by Christ upon His return. There is no rapture before this. Anyone who calls upon the name of the Lord when he returns will be saved PERIOD!!
P
Nowhere does this dimension exist
No,the saints are in heaven DURING the gt. REv 14 or 15 has angels preaching the gospel toward the end of the gt.
They do already. That is why the Lord can paint the pretrib rapture picture w/the 10 virgin parable and postribs make it into something other that the rapture. And why some refuse the clear comparison of the bride/groom in the jewish wedding with the bride/groom of the rapture (10 virgins) these are no brainers but they are twisted like a pretzel to support a postrib doctrine.
Postribs further destroy verses like mat 24 " 2 in the field" making the one raptured to heaven into "a wicked person" then saying "the wicked are always taken 1st" (exists no where in the word)
Further,the AC killing all humans w/o the mark is distasteful to some,due to doctrinal issues, so they say "all" means anything but "all"
Pretrib needs no such modifications of God's word
No,the saints are in heaven DURING the gt. REv 14 or 15 has angels preaching the gospel toward the end of the gt.
They do already. That is why the Lord can paint the pretrib rapture picture w/the 10 virgin parable and postribs make it into something other that the rapture. And why some refuse the clear comparison of the bride/groom in the jewish wedding with the bride/groom of the rapture (10 virgins) these are no brainers but they are twisted like a pretzel to support a postrib doctrine.
Postribs further destroy verses like mat 24 " 2 in the field" making the one raptured to heaven into "a wicked person" then saying "the wicked are always taken 1st" (exists no where in the word)
Further,the AC killing all humans w/o the mark is distasteful to some,due to doctrinal issues, so they say "all" means anything but "all"
Pretrib needs no such modifications of God's word
P
This is a typical postrib talking point, or lets say another "pointless point"
Lets see how this logic carries over.
"since we see millions refusing salvation,at what point are we to believe Jesus died for all"???
Human logic that demands God get permission from us to see what He means is a breeding ground for error.
"tell the communist in a prison the rapture is pretrib" the postribs tell us.
I can say boldly I need no communist christian or otherwise to give me permission what the WORD declares without apology.
Only a error bent prisoner would look at 2/3 of humans destroyed,hail of fire,and flying scorpions with faces of men predicted for the future and transpose it to a jail cell.
Lets see how this logic carries over.
"since we see millions refusing salvation,at what point are we to believe Jesus died for all"???
Human logic that demands God get permission from us to see what He means is a breeding ground for error.
"tell the communist in a prison the rapture is pretrib" the postribs tell us.
I can say boldly I need no communist christian or otherwise to give me permission what the WORD declares without apology.
Only a error bent prisoner would look at 2/3 of humans destroyed,hail of fire,and flying scorpions with faces of men predicted for the future and transpose it to a jail cell.
J
Studying the words translated "taken" and "left" in the KJV, the former is in the sense of being received, the latter is in terms of being literally left, forsaken.
Interesting from the Geneva Bible,
"Then two shall be in the fields, the one shall be received, and the other shall be refused. Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be received, and the other shall be refused."
The very old Wycliffe Bible,
"...the toon schal be takun, and the tother forsakun," the person left characterized as being "forsaken."
The KJV Greek word translated "taken":
paralambano par-al-am-ban'-o: to receive near, i.e. associate with oneself (in any familiar or intimate act or relation); by analogy, to assume an office; figuratively, to learn -- receive, take (unto, with).
The Greek word translated "left":
aphiemi af-ee'-ay-mee: an intensive form of eimi, to go); to send forth, in various applications (as follow) -- cry, forgive, forsake, lay aside, leave, let (alone, be, go, have), omit, put (send) away, remit, suffer, yield up.
Interesting from the Geneva Bible,
"Then two shall be in the fields, the one shall be received, and the other shall be refused. Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be received, and the other shall be refused."
The very old Wycliffe Bible,
"...the toon schal be takun, and the tother forsakun," the person left characterized as being "forsaken."
The KJV Greek word translated "taken":
paralambano par-al-am-ban'-o: to receive near, i.e. associate with oneself (in any familiar or intimate act or relation); by analogy, to assume an office; figuratively, to learn -- receive, take (unto, with).
The Greek word translated "left":
aphiemi af-ee'-ay-mee: an intensive form of eimi, to go); to send forth, in various applications (as follow) -- cry, forgive, forsake, lay aside, leave, let (alone, be, go, have), omit, put (send) away, remit, suffer, yield up.
P
Except the AC is the first horseman that kicks off the Gt. He is the 1ts player not a mid point factor.
Also the greek says "departure", not "falling away",falling from the faith" man added that. You can look it up.
IOW it LITTERALLY says ".....until there be a departure first,then........".
Are you saying there will be a departure first?
Rapture first?
But either way," departure first" works perfectly for me cause it literally could be a "revealing" and a subsequent rapture an hour later while you guys are giving each other "high 5's".....wham......boom....gone,and that verse is perfectly fulfilled.
Interesting how the literal word supports pretrib.
Also the greek says "departure", not "falling away",falling from the faith" man added that. You can look it up.
IOW it LITTERALLY says ".....until there be a departure first,then........".
Are you saying there will be a departure first?
Rapture first?
But either way," departure first" works perfectly for me cause it literally could be a "revealing" and a subsequent rapture an hour later while you guys are giving each other "high 5's".....wham......boom....gone,and that verse is perfectly fulfilled.
Interesting how the literal word supports pretrib.
P
Uh yes he did,more than once so we could not get it wrong. ;
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
See that? gathered from heaven? How did they get there? What are they doing in heaven DURING THE GT?
37 But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
Uh,excuse me,BEFORE THE FLOOD,ENTERED THE ARK (a type of heaven)
39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.
One taken,one left??? ....BEFORE THE FLOOD???? Were not the wicked left outside the ark???...before the flood???
44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.45 Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season?46 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.47 Verily I say unto you, That he shall make him ruler over all his goods.48But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming;49 And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken;50 The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of,51 And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth...................7 Then all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps.8 And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out.9 But the wise answered, saying, Not so; lest there be not enough for us and you: but go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves.10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.11 Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.12 But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.13 Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.
Oh no we needn't watch,for the groom cannot come untill,blah,blah ,blah.
Ok,you guys hide and watch,cause we are trusting JESUS who told us,not a communist prisoner refusing the call of the master.
Now,what was you sayin about somethin Jesus never said?
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
See that? gathered from heaven? How did they get there? What are they doing in heaven DURING THE GT?
37 But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
Uh,excuse me,BEFORE THE FLOOD,ENTERED THE ARK (a type of heaven)
39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.
One taken,one left??? ....BEFORE THE FLOOD???? Were not the wicked left outside the ark???...before the flood???
44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.45 Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season?46 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.47 Verily I say unto you, That he shall make him ruler over all his goods.48But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming;49 And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken;50 The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of,51 And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth...................7 Then all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps.8 And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out.9 But the wise answered, saying, Not so; lest there be not enough for us and you: but go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves.10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.11 Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.12 But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.13 Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.
Oh no we needn't watch,for the groom cannot come untill,blah,blah ,blah.
Ok,you guys hide and watch,cause we are trusting JESUS who told us,not a communist prisoner refusing the call of the master.
Now,what was you sayin about somethin Jesus never said?
Last edited:
J
There's a pre-tribulation Christian theologian who recently commented how he gets all this mean and condemning email from post-tribbers, how it seems they have their shorts in a bunch, don't behave like other Christian people in discourse. I think there are some truths Satan really hates, the blessed hope a primary one. Have you noticed how the ones online don't really seem to care about anything else, either, just spend their lives trying to destroy a single doctrine, seem to have little real Christian interest in the whole word of God? It's like the Judaizers here, spending their entire lives repeating the same works salvation, over and over, as if there's nothing else in the Bible, as if they just hate the law of faith in Christ the Bible teaches.
P
Yes,but on the other hand I have postrib friends that really love the lord. They listen to teachers that teach postrib and I have to really watch myself that I hand them the simple word w/o emotion.
When I discovered the bride/groom dimension it changed everything.
This is truly the most fascinating study of the word. The levitical priesthood being second.
When I discovered the bride/groom dimension it changed everything.
This is truly the most fascinating study of the word. The levitical priesthood being second.
Hold your ground pop .... stick to the truth of Lord's coming call before His judgment
Most of professing Christianity think they are saved and are not today
These are real targets for ending up in the tribulation ..... a hard place to repent it will be [Revelation 3:15-19]
Here is a hint for you on the "taken/left" debate so that you can put away the post tribulation thinker's folly
This has nothing to do with the "rapture" of the Lord's true ecclesia
This is about Israel in the tribulation [the time of Jacob's trouble] ... those taken will be mortal Israelites who do not turn during the period and they will perish in the judgment
Those mortals left will be the ones who will turn to the Lord and left to enter and populate the Lord's coming millennial kingdom upon the earth just after the days of the tribulation
Another flaw in PT .... if all believes are resurrected at the end of the tribulation, there would be no mortal believers to enter .... the PT has no answer for this truth except to refute it, but this is going to happen [Isaiah 11; 27:12-13; Matthew 24:29-31]
Most of professing Christianity think they are saved and are not today
These are real targets for ending up in the tribulation ..... a hard place to repent it will be [Revelation 3:15-19]
Here is a hint for you on the "taken/left" debate so that you can put away the post tribulation thinker's folly
This has nothing to do with the "rapture" of the Lord's true ecclesia
This is about Israel in the tribulation [the time of Jacob's trouble] ... those taken will be mortal Israelites who do not turn during the period and they will perish in the judgment
Those mortals left will be the ones who will turn to the Lord and left to enter and populate the Lord's coming millennial kingdom upon the earth just after the days of the tribulation
Another flaw in PT .... if all believes are resurrected at the end of the tribulation, there would be no mortal believers to enter .... the PT has no answer for this truth except to refute it, but this is going to happen [Isaiah 11; 27:12-13; Matthew 24:29-31]
If we change the word falling away to departure, than the verse be like this:
[SUP]1[/SUP] Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and (A) by our gathering together unto him,
[SUP]2[/SUP] That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
[SUP]3[/SUP] Let no man deceive you by any means: (B) for that day shall not come,(C) except there come a departure first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
[SUP]4[/SUP] Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
Let me ask you some questions brother.
1. Is : our gathering together unto Him mean rapture? or else, please explained if you not agree our gathering together in this verse mean rapture.
2. You said falling away must not there, it must departure. Is departure in this verse/Greek mean rapture as well?
[SUP]1[/SUP] Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and (A) by our gathering together unto him,
[SUP]2[/SUP] That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
[SUP]3[/SUP] Let no man deceive you by any means: (B) for that day shall not come,(C) except there come a departure first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
[SUP]4[/SUP] Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
Let me ask you some questions brother.
1. Is : our gathering together unto Him mean rapture? or else, please explained if you not agree our gathering together in this verse mean rapture.
2. You said falling away must not there, it must departure. Is departure in this verse/Greek mean rapture as well?
"If we change the word falling away to departure, than the verse be like this"
This a moot argument in the first place and has nothing to with the Lord's "harpazo action" to call His true ecclesia to immortality
It has everything to do with the level of the falling away of lost humanity from the truth about the Lord .... which He is no longer willing to tolerate
Why would anyone change the Lord's Word to suit a pet theory?
This a moot argument in the first place and has nothing to with the Lord's "harpazo action" to call His true ecclesia to immortality
It has everything to do with the level of the falling away of lost humanity from the truth about the Lord .... which He is no longer willing to tolerate
Why would anyone change the Lord's Word to suit a pet theory?
Brother Popeye said that falling away in that verse, base on the original language/ Greek, suppose to translate as departure.
Not that we want to change. But Brother Popeye want to translate as precisely as possible. I my self don't know Greek,
I tray to do more investigation by asking that question to brother Popeye.
Not that we want to change. But Brother Popeye want to translate as precisely as possible. I my self don't know Greek,
I tray to do more investigation by asking that question to brother Popeye.
