When does the rapture occur?

VCO · Apr 19, 2015

FOR ALL YOU SKEPTICS, SCOFFERS, and DOUBTERS , I repeat this one more time:

Matthew 25:1-13 (ESV)
[SUP]1 [/SUP] “Then the kingdom of heaven will be like ten virgins who took their lamps and went to meet the bridegroom.
[SUP]2 [/SUP] Five of them were foolish, and five were wise.
[SUP]3 [/SUP] For when the foolish took their lamps, they took no oil with them,
[SUP]4 [/SUP] but the wise took flasks of oil with their lamps.
[SUP]5 [/SUP] As the bridegroom was delayed, they all became drowsy and slept.
[SUP]6 [/SUP] But at midnight there was a cry, ‘Here is the bridegroom! Come out to meet him.’
[SUP]7 [/SUP] Then all those virgins rose and trimmed their lamps.
[SUP]8 [/SUP] And the foolish said to the wise, ‘Give us some of your oil, for our lamps are going out.’
[SUP]9 [/SUP] But the wise answered, saying, ‘Since there will not be enough for us and for you, go rather to the dealers and buy for yourselves.’
[SUP]10 [/SUP] And while they were going to buy, the bridegroom came, and those who were ready went in with him to the marriage feast, and the door was shut.
[SUP]11 [/SUP] Afterward the other virgins came also, saying, ‘Lord, lord, open to us.’
[SUP]12 [/SUP] But he answered, ‘Truly, I say to you, I do not know you.’ {The inner personal LOVE relationship of genuinely KNOWING HIM as LORD, which means MASTER.}
[SUP]13 [/SUP] Watch therefore, for you know neither the day nor the hour.

{That is the PRIMARY, Pretrib COMMAND, for ALL generations Watch for HIS appearing to Call Out His Bride to go to the Wedding IN HIS FATHER'S HOUSE, Midtrib and Posttrib would not require you even begin to Watch until the Antichrist Dictator sign the Peace Treaty is ISRAEL, which certainly will be all over TV NEWS.}

John 14:2-3 (ESV)
[SUP]2 [/SUP] In my Father’s house are many rooms. If it were not so, would I have told you that I go to prepare a place for you?
[SUP]3 [/SUP] And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and will take you to myself,that where I am you may be also. {We go TO HIM and With HIM to the Wedding in Heaven, that is NOT when He returns to Earth to be with Human Beings.}

PlainWord · Apr 19, 2015

popeye said:

When you say "US" in verse 10, who is doing the talking or should I say, "who is doing the singing." Who is the "THEY THAT SUNG?" Let's walk through this again. I think we need to freshen up on basic reading comprehension and grammar.

[h=3]Definitions[/h] A noun is a word or set of words for a person, place, thing, or idea.

A verb is a word or set of words that shows action (runs, is going, has been painting); feeling (loves, envies); or state of being (am, are, is, have been, was, seem).
Examples:
He ran around the block.
I like my friend.
They seem friendly.

Rule 1. To find the subject and verb, always find the verb first. Then ask who or what performed the verb.
Examples:
The jet engine passed inspection.
Passed is the verb. Who or what passed? The engine, so engine is the subject. (If you included the word jet as the subject, lightning will not strike you. But technically, jet is an adjective here and is part of what is known as the complete subject.)
From the ceiling hung the chandelier.
The verb is hung. Now, if you think ceiling is the subject, slow down. Ask who or what hung. The answer is the chandelier, not the ceiling. Therefore, chandelier is the subject.

Rule 2. Sentences can have more than one subject and more than one verb.
Examples:
I like cake, and he likes ice cream. (Two subjects and two verbs)
He and I like cake. (Two subjects and one verb)
She lifts weights and jogs daily. (One subject and two verbs)

Rule 3. If a verb follows to, it is called an infinitive, and it is not the main verb. You will find the main verb either before or after the infinitive.
Examples:
He is trying to leave.
To leave is an infinitive; the main verb is trying.
To leave was his wish.
The main verb is was.

So, let's try this again. Verbs in blue, subject nouns in red:

[SUP]8 [/SUP]Now when He (Lamb) had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each having a harp, and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints. [SUP]9 [/SUP]And they (4 LC & 24 E) sang a new song, saying:

Who had taken the scroll? He (Lamb)
Who fell down before the Lamb? Four Living Creatures and Twenty-four elders.
Who has the harp? Four Living Creatures and Twenty-four elders.
Who has the golden bowls? Four Living Creatures and Twenty-four elders.
Who sang a new song? They. Who does the "they" refer back to? Four Living Creatures and Twenty-four elders.

Now that we established that the 24 Elders were singing the new song, what does the song say?

“You (Lamb) are worthy to take the scroll,
And to open its seals;

Lamb takes scroll
Lamb opens seals

For You (Lamb) were slain,
And have redeemed us (4 LC & 24 E) to God by Your blood

Lamb redeemed 24 Elders to God by Lamb's blood

Out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation,

The 24 Elders were redeemed out of every tribe, tongue, people and nation.

Are you with me so far? The prayers of the saints are the incense in the bowls that the 24 Elders were holding. The Saints themselves are not the subject matter, it is the Four Living Creatures and 24 Elders who are singing about themselves. They happen to be holding "prayers of the saints" not the saints themselves.

Now that we've had this little Grammar lesson, who are being made kings and priests to God and who is reigning on earth?

[SUP]10 [/SUP]And have made us kings and priests to our God;
And we shall reign on the earth.”

Again, who is the "we?" It is NOT the Church. The Church isn't mention or even inferred. Did you follow the progression? The "we" is not all the Saints. The "We" are the 24 Elders and perhaps also the 4 Living Creatures.

The Lamb has made the 24 Elders priests to God and the 24 Elders shall reign on the earth. There is nothing in this passage that tells us that ALL THE SAINTS are going to be reigning too.

The only other passage I can think of on short notice is Paul writing to Timothy where he mentions to Timothy that if we "endure" we will reign with Him. The "we" is Paul and Timothy. The context is enduring suffering for the faith. Then we have Revelation 20 which discusses those specifically beheaded. The context there is clear and concise.

I am not aware of any passage that clearly and precisely tells us all Saints (from the beginning of Saints to the end) reign on earth with Christ. If you know of a passage, please enlighten me. Thank you.

popeye · Apr 19, 2015

I am talking about your failed analogy. We see in Jesus' words "one taken,one left",practically in the same sentance as HIS Noah analogy.

Your postrib doctrine would place the "wicked" alive at the END OF THE FLOOD,when you say they are taken
No matter how you keep spinning this,you have in fact NO POSTFLOOD anything. NOTHING.
It is ignorance invincible that you fail to see you have no postflood event.

That postrib beast carried you into the desert and died.............you are yet to realise it

1) there is no "wicked removed" in mat 24.Your starting place is a made up scenario. (iow you need it to say that)
2) If in fact they were "wicked", and removed,then jesus is "removing the wicked" at the start of the flood/GT. This is beyond bizzarre and verging on the insane.I mean your whole deal is totally shreaded dude

You really,really do not see you have the wicked removed/destroyed by virtue of your own 'ascribing' "one taken one left" as "wicked taken"at the start of the flood/GT?(I mean how can this 'wicked taken' mess be 'taken' seriously?)
Or that Noah is "caught up"to anywhere postflood????????

PlainWord · Apr 19, 2015

VCO said:

In the Parable of 10 Virgins, no timing is given. Pre-Trib, Mid-Trib, Post-Trib, Pre-wrath, whatever. This parable works just fine in any scenario relative to the Tribulation. Again, and I repeat for the 1,058th time, YOU HAVE NO PASSAGE LOCATING THE RETURN OF CHRIST BEFORE THE GREAT TRIB IS OVER. You just don't PERIOD end of SENTENCE. You only have wishful thinking and conjecture. Sorry. I really am. I love the Pre-Trib fable. It's wonderful. To think those of us at the end get flown off and escape suffering for our faith would be ideal. The problem is, the opposite is actually taught.

When Christ returns to "take us to myself" where is he? HE RETURNS, meaning He is here. HELLO!!

PlainWord · Apr 19, 2015

First off, it isn't my analogy, it's Christ's own analogy. You just happen to not understand as you don't about much of any prophetic word (said with love of course). Read it again please.

[SUP]38 [/SUP]For as in the days before the flood, they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, [SUP]39 [/SUP]and did not know until the flood came and took them all away, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be.

Who do the flood waters sweep away? Who is eating, drinking and giving in marriage without a care in this world? THE WICKED. The Flood took them (the wicked) all away. When Christ returns, His angels will take all the wicked away. Away from where? From His literal kingdom in Israel.

[SUP]41 [/SUP]The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and those who practice lawlessness...

Do you see the wicked being removed from the kingdom??

Is anyone really this blind? You equate the flood to the GT? Why are you doing that???? I've told you 5,000 times that the GT is not the Return of Jesus and neither is it His wrath. You keep thinking like that and you will never see the true picture. The Great Tribulation is the Wrath of Satan. God doesn't appoint us to wrath. God does not kill the GM in Heaven. God does not come as the Man of Sin. God does not deceive the world. God does not persecute believers. God does not come against Israel. God shortens those days; He doesn't cause those days.

You believe one little lie and you turn the entire prophetic word on its ear to fit the lie.

We are to suffer Tribulation
We are to endure to the end
Those who try to save their lives will lose them
Those who lose their lives will save them
Keep patience and faith

In the end Christ wins but before then Satan does a lot of harm. He wages war with Saints. He overcomes them and he (Satan) kills them.

[SUP]30 [/SUP]Let both grow together until the harvest, and at the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, “First gather together the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them, but gather the wheat into my barn.”’”

I can't believe we have to do this but let's see what the word, FIRST means.

first

[furst]

adjective 1. being before all others with respect to time, order, rank, importance, etc., used as the ordinal number of one: the first edition; the first vice president.

Please read the above verse with this definition of "FIRST" and tell me what happens at the end.

The tares are the bad people.
The wheat are the good people.

Tares are removed from Israel. The wheat are then gathered into the Kingdom on earth in Israel.

popeye · Apr 19, 2015

PlainWord said:

Definitions
-con·textˈkäntekst/
noun
[COLOR=#878787 !important][/COLOR]

the circumstances that form the setting for an event, statement, or idea, and in terms of which it can be fully understood and assessed.

The act of reading in entirety and extraction of understanding from content in lieu of not sacrificing knowledge in the name of prejudice

the parts of something written or spoken that immediately precede and follow a word or passage and clarify its meaning.

Taking a definition of a group to include all the members implied without the necessity of omission,when that omission would skew the obvious assessment.

'The generals and top military commanders,all 24 of them, met with the president. "we will go into syria,meet them head on and defeat them and we will reign over their cities and rule those people under fairness and justice"

The president,not knowing the "we" referred to the entire 2 million troops accompanying them,scratched his nead and replied "thats impossible,24 men against thousands"
we = only 24 right?????????????
24=how do 24 rule a country?????????????

Thus we see they were not alone'.......9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

24 out of hundreds/thousands??? really???
Your "24 only" out of EVERY TRIBE,has a sentinelese elder from the remote adanlan islands as one of the 24. Remember you said 24 ELDERS ONLY.

Now that we've had this little Grammar lesson, who are being made kings and priests to God and who is reigning on earth?

popeye · Apr 19, 2015

Then why do you lie about it?
1)I know of no pretrib adherant that thinks there is no persecution or suffering,yet you lie about this.
2) endure to the end meaning the end of the GT is plain goofy in that now you have the apostle Paul NOT ENDURING TO THE END.
3)You mock Jesus when he says to watch and wait for himself ,by saying to those watchmen they are just saving their own lives,when in fact,they sacrifice their own lives to be devoted enough to watch when they could be doing other things.
4) Bravo! yes indeed,those left behind after the rapture will be killed for refusing the mark.
5) what you think pple WILL do and what they do is YOUR PERSONAL CONJECTURE. Yet this is part of your foundational belief.

popeye · Apr 19, 2015

Yes please do apply your understanding to rev 20 where your supposed timing has the 1st resurrection at the close of the GT. (7 yr period) for you gt/wrath folks. And at the same time apply your 24 elders only pattern to exclude all but the martyrs in rev 20 resurrected.

See that? Tell me again what 1st means???

GaryA · Apr 19, 2015

PlainWord and popeye:

You guys need to stop and read each other's posts again. You are both completely missing what the other is saying - especially you, popeye.

EDIT: And popeye -- it is not that I fully agree with PlainWord - I don't, on a lot of things -- only, that I do understand what he is saying. And, you are taking what he is saying and "twisting it" - because, you partially do not understand what he is saying...

GaryA · Apr 19, 2015

"Slow down... Read carefully... Contemplate..."

Then ------------------------- reply...

"Just sayin'..."

GaryA · Apr 19, 2015

popeye said:

Now, here --- I believe you do understand that he means ( it is what I get from his posts ) that only the 24 elders + Revelation 20 martyrs will be reigning during the 1000-year reign of Christ.

GaryA · Apr 19, 2015

By the way --- I think that - in this thread - there is a lot more being "written into" the "Noah analogy" than is actually in scripture...

GaryA · Apr 19, 2015

With regard to the "Noah analogy":

Matthew 24:

[SUP]37[/SUP] But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. [SUP]38[/SUP] For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, [SUP]39[/SUP] And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Luke 17:

[SUP]26[/SUP] And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man. [SUP]27[/SUP] They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all. [SUP]28[/SUP] Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded; [SUP]29[/SUP] But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all. [SUP]30[/SUP] Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

I believe that the only "real and true" comparison being made in these verses has to do with the fact that "life as usual" is the only concern of the 'wicked'. Anything added to that, based on "details" that are not "covered" in the context of these verses, is not valid - and, only lends itself to error...

In other words, applying the details of these verses in an "order of events" way is "going beyond" the intended scope of the context of these verses. These verses are not describing anything in an "order of events" way -- they are, in fact, only describing the condition of humanity at the time of the Second Coming of Christ -- which is a snapshot in time.

In the context of these passages ( particularly, in the broader sense of the larger passages ( before and after the above posted verses) ), these verses are only describing the sense of "the lack of expectation" of the 'wicked' for the Second Coming of Christ.

Who was it that "knew not until the flood came" -- the 'wicked'.

The 'righteous' ( Noah ) knew it was coming.

The same thing applies to those of Sodom.

The 'righteous' can "see God at work" - the 'wicked' cannot.

popeye · Apr 19, 2015

GaryA said:

Without exception ,in all of Jesus' analogies,he overly simplified them.
The pictures painted are clear as crystal.
Please show me my misrepresentations.

popeye · Apr 19, 2015

GaryA said:

With regard to the "Noah analogy":

Matthew 24:

[SUP]37[/SUP] But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. [SUP]38[/SUP] For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, [SUP]39[/SUP] And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Luke 17:

[SUP]26[/SUP] And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man. [SUP]27[/SUP] They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all. [SUP]28[/SUP] Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded; [SUP]29[/SUP] But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all. [SUP]30[/SUP] Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

I believe that the only "real and true" comparison being made in these verses has to do with the fact that "life as usual" is the only concern of the 'wicked'. Anything added to that, based on "details" that are not "covered" in the context of these verses, is not valid - and, only lends itself to error...

In other words, applying the details of these verses in an "order of events" way is "going beyond" the intended scope of the context of these verses. These verses are not describing anything in an "order of events" way -- they are, in fact, only describing the condition of humanity at the time of the Second Coming of Christ -- which is a snapshot in time.

In the context of these passages ( particularly, in the broader sense of the larger passages ( before and after the above posted verses) ), these verses are only describing the sense of "the lack of expectation" of the 'wicked' for the Second Coming of Christ.

Who was it that "knew not until the flood came" -- the 'wicked'.

The 'righteous' ( Noah ) knew it was coming.

The same thing applies to those of Sodom.

The 'righteous' can "see God at work" - the 'wicked' cannot.

Uh no,you never want to take obvious facts off the table.

I want more info,not less.
So lets list what you say is off the table;
Judgement
Lack of any judgement prior to the RIGHTEOUS TAKEN FIRST.
Ark being a type of heaven (but nat applicable in Jesus analogy)
The righteous spared,and dealt with FIRST.
The righteous returning AFTER JUDGEMENT (with the noah one) btw, this serves several views
The righteous dwelling among the wicked for a time,then the game changer being the righteous taken first.

sltaylor · Apr 19, 2015

Galatians 4:26*"But the Jerusalem that is above*is free, and she is our mother. 27*For it is written: "Be glad, O barren woman, who bears no children; break forth and cry aloud, you who have no labor pains; because more are the children of the desolate woman than of her who has a husband."
Isaiah 66: 7*"Before she goes into labor,*she gives birth; before the pains come upon her, she delivers a son.*8*Who has ever heard of such a thing? Who has ever seen such things? Can a country be born in a day*or a nation be brought forth in a moment? Yet no sooner is Zion in labor than she gives birth to her children."
Revelation 12: 5*"She gave birth to a son, a male child, who will rule all the nations with an iron scepter.*And her child was snatched up*to God and to his throne."
Revelation 10: 7*"But in the days when the seventh angel is about to sound his trumpet,the mystery*of God will be accomplished"
Ok, this is very simple if you break it down. The woman is the heavenly Jerusalem. The children are the born again body of Christ. The body of Christ is the lost sheep of Israel, who are used to reveal the mystery, which is Christ in us, the hope of glory. The mystery of Christ and his glory being revealed in us by the transformation happens AT THE SEVENTH AND LAST TRUMPET, FOR IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE LAST TRUMPET THE WOMAN DELIVERS A SON. THE SON IS THE BODY OF CHRIST, ALL OF US AS ONE, AND WE ARE SNATCHED UP TO GOD,(RAPTURED).
ISAIAH 66:7 refers to the singular word son, and verse 8 uses the words nation and country, implying that the Son is more than one, and refers to the lost sheep of Israel. Jesus and his kingdom was not of this world, and neither is the barren woman, Paul clearly says she is the heavenly Jerusalem and that HER CHILDREN ARE BORN BY THE SPIRIT. Spirit gives birth to spirit. Born again children are her children, and if she is our mother I find it absolutely amazing that the Angel said at the last trumpet the mystery is accomplished and immediately after that the barren woman delivers her son. Paul says we will be changed in a flash, isn't it amazing Isaiah says this nation is BROUGHT FORTH in a moment! So to be clear, the woman is the heavenly Jerusalem, and WE ARE HER CHILDREN, PERIOD. IF WE ARE HER CHILDREN, THEN WE ARE SNATCHED UP RIGHT AFTER THE SEVENTH AND LAST TRUMPET.

popeye · Apr 19, 2015

GaryA said:

My point is that he takes what he himself says is off limits by his judgent call of omission,and on this shaky ground,builds his case ,as it is obvious if he is wrong his whole deal is shot down.

You are the one missing what is going on. I do not,in fact,need those "building blocks of his" to make or break anything.

He CANNOT have rev 20 be ANYTHING other that a postrib resurrection,therby painting himself into a corner with the 2 witnesses have resurrected BEFORE his supposed 1st resurrection.
It can not be 1st even in his wildest dreams because Jesus along w/ the patriarchs rose 1st,then the rapure with more resurrectd,then the 2 witnesses,the 144k,ALL BEFORE THE END OF THE GT.!!!!!!

I don't even need the "24 only reigning thing" to be a + or-. makes no difference to me,because the pretrib rapture is a gathering of the bride,harmoneous with the words of Jesus and the wedding,as opposed to a single weak link made up chain.
IOW if he is reading rev 20 wrong, (which is a no brainer) and he is,IT DESTROYS THE WHOLE HOUSE OF CARDS.
Same with the wicked taken 1st nonsense.
Same with the 2 witnesses. THEY CAN NOT BE WHAT THE WORD DECLARES. The whole house of cards falls down. HE HAS TO SPIRITUALIZE IT.
Nor can mat 24 be 3 questions by the disciples ,IT HAS TO BE 2. If 3....the whole house of cards falls down.

But when it says "we" outof every tribe,tongue and nation..........it is not 24 elders "only"

sltaylor · Apr 19, 2015

Also right after the child is snatched up, there is war in heaven and Satan and his angels are cast down....which also fulfills the prophecy of Habakkuk 2: 7*"Will not your debtors suddenly arise? Will they not wake up and make you tremble? Then you will become their victim."
Christ paid our debt. Our time to wake up is very soon, (Romans 13:11-"And do this, understanding the present time. The hour has come for you to wake up from your slumber, because our salvation is nearer now than when we first believed.")
So to reveal the prophecy of Habakkuk and relate it to revelation: we are the debtors, whose ransom is paid by Christ, we will soon wake up, and then they will be our victim.
Revelation 12: 7*"And there was war in heaven.*"
Isn't that amazing, immediately after the Barren Woman's son is snatched up, ("suddenly arise"), there's a war where Satan loses, and is cast down to the earth. Not a coincidence.

popeye · Apr 19, 2015

sltaylor said:

Galatians 4:26*"But the Jerusalem that is above*is free, and she is our mother. 27*For it is written: "Be glad, O barren woman, who bears no children; break forth and cry aloud, you who have no labor pains; because more are the children of the desolate woman than of her who has a husband."
Isaiah 66: 7*"Before she goes into labor,*she gives birth; before the pains come upon her, she delivers a son.*8*Who has ever heard of such a thing? Who has ever seen such things? Can a country be born in a day*or a nation be brought forth in a moment? Yet no sooner is Zion in labor than she gives birth to her children."
Revelation 12: 5*"She gave birth to a son, a male child, who will rule all the nations with an iron scepter.*And her child was snatched up*to God and to his throne."
Revelation 10: 7*"But in the days when the seventh angel is about to sound his trumpet,the mystery*of God will be accomplished"
Ok, this is very simple if you break it down. The woman is the heavenly Jerusalem. The children are the born again body of Christ. The body of Christ is the lost sheep of Israel, who are used to reveal the mystery, which is Christ in us, the hope of glory. The mystery of Christ and his glory being revealed in us by the transformation happens AT THE SEVENTH AND LAST TRUMPET, FOR IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE LAST TRUMPET THE WOMAN DELIVERS A SON. THE SON IS THE BODY OF CHRIST, ALL OF US AS ONE, AND WE ARE SNATCHED UP TO GOD,(RAPTURED).
ISAIAH 66:7 refers to the singular word son, and verse 8 uses the words nation and country, implying that the Son is more than one, and refers to the lost sheep of Israel. Jesus and his kingdom was not of this world, and neither is the barren woman, Paul clearly says she is the heavenly Jerusalem and that HER CHILDREN ARE BORN BY THE SPIRIT. Spirit gives birth to spirit. Born again children are her children, and if she is our mother I find it absolutely amazing that the Angel said at the last trumpet the mystery is accomplished and immediately after that the barren woman delivers her son. Paul says we will be changed in a flash, isn't it amazing Isaiah says this nation is BROUGHT FORTH in a moment! So to be clear, the woman is the heavenly Jerusalem, and WE ARE HER CHILDREN, PERIOD. IF WE ARE HER CHILDREN, THEN WE ARE SNATCHED UP RIGHT AFTER THE SEVENTH AND LAST TRUMPET.

No,you have to factor in 2 covenents and the times of the gentiles fulfilled. Enter Jacobs trouble with the rapture marking the "time" of the gentiles fulfilled.

The GT is the closing of the church (bride gathered)and the covenant israel being God's new focus//redemption/gathering

sltaylor · Apr 19, 2015

popeye said:

look I'm quoting scripture here. The only barren woman ever prophesied is the heavenly Jerusalem. That's Paul's understanding from the revelation of Christ to him, of which he quotes from Isaiah 54, and is what scripture is talking about. Not only that but Isaiah 66 clearly says that no sooner is Zion in labor she gives birth to her children. Do you think 12 chapters later Isaiah is talking of a different woman giving birth? Seriously, Paul quotes Isaiah 54 as fulfilling the Jerusalem above and 12 chapters later Isaiah is talking of a different woman giving birth? Please, as Hebrews 12:22 says: But you have come to Mount Zion,to the heavenly Jerusalem,*the city*of the living God.
And Isaiah prophesies than no sooner is Zion in labor that she gives birth to her children. The only woman I'm concerned about giving birth is our mother, the heavenly Jerusalem and I know no other woman who could do exactly what Revelation 12 says other than this very Zion. Period. The first covenant is obsolete, period. Hebrews 8:13-"By calling this covenant "new," he has made the first one*obsolete; and what is*obsolete*and aging will soon disappear." There were two covenants, that's right. He made a covenant, but AS SCRIPTURE DECLARES, the first one will disappear, meaning the only covenant that matters now is the new covenant.

When does the rapture occur?

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