Matthew 24:7... Nation vs Nation;Kingdom vs Kingdom

[Bookends]

[SUP]7 [/SUP]For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. And there will be famines (Acts 11:28), pestilences, and earthquakes (Acts 16:26) in various places. [SUP]8 [/SUP]All these are the beginning of sorrows.

From the BBC History web site:
"Meanwhile, the Roman empire was in turmoil. Nero established Armenia as a buffer state against Parthia (Iran), but only after a costly war. There were revolts - in Britain (60 AD - 61 AD), led by Boudicca, and Judea (66 AD - 70 AD). In 65 AD, Gaius Calpurnius Piso led a conspiracy against the emperor and in the purge that followed, a number of prominent Romans were executed, including Seneca and his nephew, the epic poet Lucan. In 65 AD, Nero is believed to have kicked his wife Poppaea to death. His next wife was Statilia Messalina, whose first husband Nero had executed. In 68 AD, the Gallic and Spanish legions, along with the Praetorian Guards, rose against Nero and he fled Rome. The senate declared him a public enemy and he committed suicide on 9 June 68 AD. Disputes over his succession led to civil war in Rome."

[h=3]Acts 11:28[/h]New King James Version (NKJV)

[SUP]28 [/SUP]Then one of them, named Agabus, stood up and showed by the Spirit that there was going to be a great famine throughout all the world, which also happened in the days of Claudius Caesar.


[h=3]Acts 16:26[/h]New King James Version (NKJV)

[SUP]26 [/SUP]Suddenly there was a great earthquake, so that the foundations of the prison were shaken; and immediately all the doors were opened and everyone’s chains were loosed.

 

[nathan3]

The subject is Christ return in Matthew 24: ; at the very end. so it cant be anything that has happened before.


Mark 13:
19 For in those days shall be affliction, such as was not from the beginning of the creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be.

not even to be compared to the creation, or will ever be. That event did not happen with Roman generals or any man here.

Also what about all the events Christ outlines in Mark 13 and Matthew 24. Those scriptures in that chapter all should be covered to get a clear picture.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

A few battles does not make a fulfillment.

One earthquake does not make a fulfillment

one must remember, Jesus called these "Birth pangs" he is trying to paint a picture here. when a mother goes into labor, the pains start slow and are low level, the closer she gets to birth, they grow exponentially stronger and are closer together. The wars will get more numerous and more destructive, the earthquakes and other natural disasters will grow stronger and become more numerous, same with the spead of disease,, stronger and more frequent, same with all the things.

this did not happen like this in the 1 century AD.. yes things were bad. but compaired to the last 100 years or more.. they paled in comparison.. and things are getting worse.

Jesus also said immediately after those days we would see the sign of the son of man in the clouds.. this did not happen in the first century either. has not happened yet. so his prophesy concerning the "end times and his return" are still in effect even today.

 

[Bookends]

Thanks for responding guys...I'm going to take this one chunk at a time. Does not context mean anything? For example, verse 17,"Let him who is on the housetop not go down to take anything out of his house." Please tell how this is applicable to us today?

Yes EG, one earthquake doesn't mean much, all it means is that there was earthquakes in that day, 1st Century, as well as today. Also if you look at the History of earthquakes, you'll see that the number as come down in frequency, Jesus never said that there will be an increase of earthquakes, but simply that there will be earthquakes. Click>>Historic World Earthquakes. I'm aware this doesn't necessarily prove anything as well. The point I'm making is that earthquakes, famines and pestilences did exist in that day as well.

Regarding birth pains, these could be the birth pains of the new emerging Church that Jesus is speaking of, which you seem just ignore, and why is beyond me.

this did not happen like this in the 1 century AD.. yes things were bad. but compaired to the last 100 years or more.. they paled in comparison.. and things are getting worse.

If you take things in 500 year chunks, you will see that things aren't getting progressive worse. Have you ever done a comprehensive study of what things where actually like from the time of Christ death to the destruction of Jerusalem, and the gruesome details of what both Jews (the besiege of the Romans upon Jerusalem) and Christian persecution from both Jews and the Romans? For example: burnings, being staked and having wild animals maul at you?...when and if stuff like this happens today there is moral outrage and cry from the world, even non-Christians. Christian persecution was at it's worse under Nero...It's a fact.

But please, just answer my first question above.

 

[Bookends]

Jesus also said immediately after those days we would see the sign of the son of man in the clouds.. this did not happen in the first century either. has not happened yet. so his prophesy concerning the "end times and his return" are still in effect even today.

The Lord coming in clouds is written all over the OT, does this mean that the end of the world ended back then...that's a lot of endings, don't you think? I'm not going to bother list these passages, you know where they are. Jesus could just be using the same judgment language that He used in His previous writings, thus you point is not 100% valid especially if you interpret the bible with the bible. If you can't recognize the literary genre that Jesus is using in Matt. 24 and recognize it's not to be taken in a wooden literalistic manner, then why not interpret all scripture in a wooden literalistic manner, in which I know you don't do...For example in the OT, When God says he stretches out His arm, it is not meant to mean that God has a physical body, for we know God is Spirit.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Thanks for responding guys...I'm going to take this one chunk at a time. Does not context mean anything? For example, verse 17,"Let him who is on the housetop not go down to take anything out of his house." Please tell how this is applicable to us today?

he is using their terminology, which they could understand.. and even we can understand today.. Many parts of the world still use those kind of houses.. so yes it could be applicable to us today.

Yes EG, one earthquake doesn't mean much, all it means is that there was earthquakes in that day, 1st Century, as well as today. Also if you look at the History of earthquakes, you'll see that the number as come down in frequency, Jesus never said that there will be an increase of earthquakes, but simply that there will be earthquakes. Click>>Historic World Earthquakes. I'm aware this doesn't necessarily prove anything as well. The point I'm making is that earthquakes, famines and pestilences did exist in that day as well.

Do you watch the news lately? I have never, and do not think the world has seen so many earthquakes of such magnitude. ferocity and numeracy in the last 50 years.. seems like every time we turn around there are magnitude 7 and up quakes.. look at all the people dieing in these catastrophes from tsunamis, from destruction. Again, jesus just said this is a sign.. as the buds start to grow on the trees, when you see these things, you know the time is getting near..

In fact, lets go one further. How could people back then know of these quakes all over the world.. and if they were gettng worst or not.. The thing you showed is scientific data we can compile today, there would have been no way to know those things back then..Technology shows us those things.. so they could not be applicable back then.

Regarding birth pains, these could be the birth pains of the new emerging Church that Jesus is speaking of, which you seem just ignore, and why is beyond me.

Ignore? he said these things were the signs of the end of the age and the his return. Not the beginning of the church.. I am not ignoring anything, I am literally interpreting what jesus said..

[/B][/COLOR]
If you take things in 500 year chunks, you will see that things aren't getting progressive worse. Have you ever done a comprehensive study of what things where actually like from the time of Christ death to the destruction of Jerusalem, and the gruesome details of what both Jews (the besiege of the Romans upon Jerusalem) and Christian persecution from both Jews and the Romans? For example: burnings, being staked and having wild animals maul at you?...when and if stuff like this happens today there is moral outrage and cry from the world, even non-Christians. Christian persecution was at it's worse under Nero...It's a fact.

But please, just answer my first question above.

Have you ever studied WW2 or even WW1.. And the atrocities made by so many people?? And you want me to think that compairs with what happened to isreal or others in rome?

I have studied what rome did to all people. what they did to Israel is no different than what they did to any other enemy which apposed them, it is how they kept their power. and rule over people. The people Jesus spoke to witnessed these things, or at least knew of them,, as they would have had to study what the romans did to people before them, and how they came in power.

Jesus said great tribulation. like not seen since the begining of time (the creation of the world) not will ever be seen again. not just during the roman era..

Think like them.. do you think the romans doing to them what they did to so many other cultures and peoples in gaining power was a great tribulation such as never has been seen before? it was seen all over the roman empire.. It is why people feared the Romans. and what kept them in power..

 

[eternally-gratefull]

The Lord coming in clouds is written all over the OT, does this mean that the end of the world ended back then...that's a lot of endings, don't you think? I'm not going to bother list these passages, you know where they are. Jesus could just be using the same judgment language that He used in His previous writings, thus you point is not 100% valid especially if you interpret the bible with the bible. If you can't recognize the literary genre that Jesus is using in Matt. 24 and recognize it's not to be taken in a wooden literalistic manner, then why not interpret all scripture in a wooden literalistic manner, in which I know you don't do...For example in the OT, When God says he stretches out His arm, it is not meant to mean that God has a physical body, for we know God is Spirit.

[SUP]9 [/SUP]Now when He had spoken these things, while they watched, He was taken up, and a cloud received Him out of their sight. [SUP]10 [/SUP]And while they looked steadfastly toward heaven as He went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel, [SUP]11 [/SUP]who also said, “Men of Galilee, why do you stand gazing up into heaven? This same Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will so come in like manner as you saw Him go into heaven.”

And you want me to think she was making a symbolic means of judgement here??

come on now brother. lets get real!

 

[Bookends]

Thanks for responding guys...I'm going to take this one chunk at a time. Does not context mean anything? For example, verse 17,"Let him who is on the housetop not go down to take anything out of his house." Please tell how this is applicable to us today?

he is using their terminology, which they could understand.. and even we can understand today.. Many parts of the world still use those kind of houses.. so yes it could be applicable to us today.

Nice EG, Thanks for answering my question to the best of your ability, however I find it quite inadequate. Jesus is using their terminology, which they could understand, because it applies to them. So if it does apply to us today, what does the phrase "get off you roof top mean in our 21st Century", since we don't hang out on our roof tops today. Does in it mean "watch the 7 o'clock news"? Or get out your newspaper? Surely back then people did hang out of their roof tops to escape the heat of their houses, to view approaching weather conditions, and to see if armies where approaching, in which they could see them coming and act accordingly.

If Matthew 24 "get off your roof tops" didn't apply to them, but they had to understand it (according to you), but to 2000+ yrs later, why would it be important for them to understand it?

Getting off our roof tops has no relevance for us today. Jesus could have just said "be on your guard"...Jesus was being very specific here!!!!

If it was meant for us, Jesus would have no need to say "get off your roof tops", because we don't stand on our roof tops today to observe weather, approaching danger, or to get away from heat.

Anyway, I loved the way you danced around this, and that you can't admit it's a problem for your interpretation....That's OK, I got more questions I need answers to. Moving on...

In verse 20, Jesus says, "And pray that your flight may not be in winter or on the Sabbath." Please explain to me why and how this applies for us today? We are much more equipped to handle cold winters now, we have matches, lighters, goose down coats, blankets galore, gas and Kerosene heaters, heat in our cars, etc. etc. Thus flight in the winter in our day should be a breeze, (unless a nuclear bomb hits them, in which fleeing won't be an option, it's over just like "snap" that!: and with the weapons and technology of today, fleeing at anytime would be close to impossible especially for Jerusalem) btw, are their many people in Jerusalem preparing to flee anytime soon? And where would they go, their enemies basically surround them, they wouldn't be able to hide.

Why is fleeing on the sabbath a problem for 21st Century century citizens today?

 

[Bookends]

Do you watch the news lately? I have never, and do not think the world has seen so many earthquakes of such magnitude. ferocity and numeracy in the last 50 years.. seems like every time we turn around there are magnitude 7 and up quakes.. look at all the people dieing in these catastrophes from tsunamis, from destruction. Again, jesus just said this is a sign.. as the buds start to grow on the trees, when you see these things, you know the time is getting near..

In fact, lets go one further. How could people back then know of these quakes all over the world.. and if they were gettng worst or not.. The thing you showed is scientific data we can compile today, there would have been no way to know those things back then..Technology shows us those things.. so they could not be applicable back then.

Our media magnifies these events. Human kind never had the technology we have today to keep track and records like we have today, and to push this information out globally as we do today. Therefore we don't know or have a full working knowledge the frequency and magnitude of such events. Thus to say that these events are more frequent or stronger in magnitude is pure speculation on your part. The data isn't there. There for I can also use your reasoning against you here. Jesus never said these quakes had to be global (common sense tells us that they are, but Jesus never made that a condition).

Ignore? he said these things were the signs of the end of the age and the his return. Not the beginning of the church.. I am not ignoring anything, I am literally interpreting what jesus said..

I respect you opinion, but take as just that, opinion. Jesus walking on this earth was clearly in the OT or Old Covenant age. You are not interpreting what Jesus said according to the intent and genre in which He spoke, but again, that's my opinion. The Church age was clear made visible after His death and resurrection, pentecost, and was fully inaugurated IMO at destruction of the types and shadows, Jerusalem, the earthly temple, 70AD.


[QUOTE=eternally-gratefull;926299]Have you ever studied WW2 or even WW1.. And the atrocities made by so many people?? And you want me to think that compairs with what happened to isreal or others in rome?[/quote] Yes, I'd say I'd rather be lined up and shot at, or gassed, or starved to death, then to be hung on a pole and have a lion or bear eat my gonads. Or to be made sport of by being made to fight wild animals or others...

Goto go...back back later..

 

[Bookends]

The subject is Christ return in Matthew 24: ; at the very end. so it cant be anything that has happened before.


Mark 13:
19 For in those days shall be affliction, such as was not from the beginning of the creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be.

not even to be compared to the creation, or will ever be. That event did not happen with Roman generals or any man here.

Also what about all the events Christ outlines in Mark 13 and Matthew 24. Those scriptures in that chapter all should be covered to get a clear picture.

Ok Nathian, what about Mark 13:9,
“But watch out for yourselves, for they will deliver you up to councils, and you will be beaten in the synagogues. You will be brought before rulers and kings for My sake, for a testimony to them.

Is there any evidence that Christians are beaten in Synagogues today... Are you going to tell that a synagogues is something else but a Jewish house of worship? I don't see any evidence that Jews of this day want beat us.

Matthew 10:17
Persecutions Are Coming

[SUP]16 [/SUP]“Behold, I send you out as sheep in the midst of wolves. Therefore be wise as serpents and harmless as doves. [SUP]17 [/SUP]But beware of men, for they will deliver you up to councils and scourge you in their synagogues. [SUP]18 [/SUP]You will be brought before governors and kings for My sake, as a testimony to them (Unbelieving Jews) and to the Gentiles. [SUP]19 [/SUP]But when they deliver you up, do not worry about how or what you should speak. For it will be given to you in that hour what you should speak; [SUP]20 [/SUP]for it is not you who speak, but the Spirit of your Father who speaks in you.

[SUP]21 [/SUP]“Now brother will deliver up brother to death, and a father his child; and children will rise up against parents and cause them to be put to death. [SUP]22 [/SUP]And you will be hated by all for My name’s sake. But he who endures to the end will be saved. [SUP]23 [/SUP]When they persecute you in this city, flee to another. For assuredly, I say to you, you will not have gone through the cities of Israel before the Son of Man comes.


Is this the 2nd coming? Jesus told them, NOT YOU, that they'll be persecuted from city to city, the Jews will not give up their persecution until the LORD Comes IN JUDGMENT...This is the only way you make sense of this, unless you want say that these disciples of Christ are living today.

In Mark 13:19 that you quoted, Jesus said, [SUP]19[/SUP]For in those days there will be tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the creation which God created until this time, nor ever shall be.Jesus is clearly talking about the time that was close at hand, for it it wasn't, "UNTIL THAT TIME", would have made your interpretation more believable. This really doesn't prove or disprove anything, especially the futurist view.

 

[Bookends]

I have studied what rome did to all people. what they did to Israel is no different than what they did to any other enemy which apposed them, it is how they kept their power. and rule over people. The people Jesus spoke to witnessed these things, or at least knew of them,, as they would have had to study what the romans did to people before them, and how they came in power.

But the Jews where ignorant of this fact, and still revolted against Rome because they thought God was on their side, when reality God handed them over to Satan and allowed the Romans to conquer them, It is God who did it because is sovereign right? But I'm not sure what you are getting at here, so if you can rephrase your comment or question.

The Jews revolted over taxation, not over religious matters, for then did say they had no king but Ceasar. the Christians resisted Rome because of they refused to partake in the Caesar cult, The Roman authorities allowed the people to worship any god they wanted, as long as they included the Caesars and recognized the Caesars as deity, as for the Christians, the faithful ones, told them to screw off...

Jesus said great tribulation. like not seen since the begining of time (the creation of the world) not will ever be seen again. not just during the roman era..

And when has Christian persecution been any worse? John saw himself in the tribulation, Rev. 1:9,[SUP] [/SUP]I, John, both your brother and companion in the tribulation and kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was on the island that is called Patmos for the word of God and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.. In THE TRIBULATION, to me, indictates to me it wasn't just a general tribulation. God's people have always been a general tribulation since the Human fall. I'm not trying to down play Christian persecution of today, I pray often for those Christians who in tribulation, the kind of tribulation leading unto death, almost every day...Sometimes I think the Christians in America and countries like us need more of it (tribulation) because that's when it seems the Church goes the most. I also pray for those doing the persecuting.

Think like them.. do you think the romans doing to them what they did to so many other cultures and peoples in gaining power was a great tribulation such as never has been seen before? it was seen all over the roman empire.. It is why people feared the Romans. and what kept them in power..

I don't think the Roman's persecuted any other Faith more then the Christians for reasons I already stated above already. All you had to do is say to them, "Caesar is God" and go worship Christ, but the faithful Christians would NOT do that, one example is Polycarp. Jesus warned the Churches in Rev. 2 and 3 about this very thing, why? Because they where living the midst of a Caesar cult culture. Thus the ones who overcame the temptation to deny Christ became the overcomers, and didn't lose their crown, those who caved and fell away from the faith because they had no real faith to begin with.

There is still a huge leason for us today, and still applies if or when our freedom to worship the One and Only, our King, is in jeopardy.

 

[Bookends]

[SUP]9 [/SUP]Now when He had spoken these things, while they watched, He was taken up, and a cloud received Him out of their sight. [SUP]10 [/SUP]And while they looked steadfastly toward heaven as He went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel, [SUP]11 [/SUP]who also said, “Men of Galilee, why do you stand gazing up into heaven? This same Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will so come in like manner as you saw Him go into heaven.”

And you want me to think she was making a symbolic means of judgement here??

come on now brother. lets get real!

NO, this is a reference to Christ's 2nd Coming. Not a specific coming in Judgment against Jerusalem in Matt. 24...Although at His 2nd Coming there will be Judgment for both the wicked and the saved, and condemnation and vindication. This one big event. As depicted in the parable of the tares and wheat, Acts 24:15-16, John 5:28-29,
[SUP]28 [/SUP]Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice [SUP]29 [/SUP]and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.



Do you deny the fact that the Lord comes in Judgment through-out human History, especially the biblical accounts in the OT?

Back on you man, COME ON! LOL...The "Rapture" as dispensationialist teach it, is a new doctrine, not historically held by any segment of the Church prior to the mid 1800's. But this tread is not about the "Rapture theory".

 

[nathan3]

Bookends:: Ok Nathian, what about Mark 13:9,
But watch out for yourselves, for they will deliver you up to councils, and you will be beaten in the synagogues.You will be brought before rulers and kings for My sake, for a testimony to them.

Nathan3 : Your forgetting to keep in mind this is taking about Christ return :
:
Mark 13:

( 22 For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect.

23 But take ye heed: behold, I have foretold you all things.

24 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,

25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.

26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.

Again, this is Christ return ( Zechariah 8:3 ; Zechariah 14:4 ;Isaiah 9:6-7; Luke 1:32-33; Revelation 20:4 ;Zechariah 14:9 etc etc etc ).

and only then., after All the events that take place after ( Rev 12:9 ; 2 Thess 2 ) are done, only after, that will Christ return.


Bookends :: Is there any evidence that Christians are beaten in Synagogues today... Are you going to tell that a synagogues is something else but a Jewish house of worship? I don't see any evidence that Jews of this day want beat us.

Nathan3 Why would they? Has Revelation 12: 9 taken place ? Satan has not been cast out to deceive the world into thinking he is Christ. Antichrist, ( Rev 13: 11-14; 2 thess 2 etc.) They are not Jewish Synagogues Christ is talking about, He is talking about the Synagogues of Satan, those that worship Satan at his, coming ( Revelation 2:9 ;Revelation 3:9 ) They even have trial ten days.

Bookends :::

Matthew 10:17
Persecutions Are Coming

Behold, I send you out as sheep in the midst of wolves. Therefore be wise as serpents and harmless as doves. 17 [/SUP]But beware of men, for they will deliver you up to councils and scourge you in their synagogues.18 You will be brought before governors and kings for My sake, as a testimony to them (Bookends:: Unbelieving Jews)

( Nathan3: No not Jews, But everyone that is deceived by Satan, remember its Satan's Synagogus ,and they only claim to be Jews as Christ said " everyone ends up being deceived; Jews, Christians, everyone all is all Rev 12:9-" ) .

Bookends:
But when they deliver you up, do not worry about how or what you should speak. For it will be given to you in that hour what you should speak; for it is not you who speak, but the Spirit of your Father who speaks in you.Rather The Holy Spirit.

Nathan3: This is what Joel the Prophet mentioned would happen at the last days. Christ return. ok, has not happened yet. Christ mentioned these trials they Holy Spirit would be speaking in ( ( Revelation 2:9 ;Revelation 3:9 ) even Peter, showed an example of it in Acts 2. how they all understood what was being spoken, because it was not them speaking , but the Holy Spirit.

12 Now the brother shall betray the brother to death, and the father the son; and children shall rise up against their parents, and shall cause them to be put to death.

13 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

Do you really think Family would do this? at the end for no reason ? Who is Death ?

Hebrews 2:14 King James Version (KJV)

14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of ""death"",""" that is, the devil""";

The Devil is Death, Paul spells it out for you here. Hes also the only one by name to be sentenced to death in (Ezekiel 28 *ashes from within* )
Who is the Devil ?

9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, "which deceiveth the whole world:" he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

So Death which is the devil and Satan, will be cast out of heaven to earth by Michael at God's command in the last days before', Christ returns. That delivering up to Death, is to Satan himself. Because, They will think Death is Christ: Just as Christ taught :

Mark 13:

21 And then if any man shall say to you, Lo, here is Christ; or, lo, he is there; believe him not:

22 For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect.

False Christ showing signs and wonders ? ( Rev 13: 11 And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.


Looks like the Lamb , even the slain Lamb, BUT he speak as a dragon, why? Because he is the dragon-( Rev:12:9 )

12 And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.

13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,

14 ""And deceiveth""" them"" that dwell on the earth ""by the """means of those miracles"" which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; ""saying to them that dwell on the earth,"" that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.


Who did they worship ? Rev13: 4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?

who is the Dragon ? ( Rev 12:9 ) Who is also the Devil ( Rev 12:9. who is also named Death ( Hebrews 2:14 ) who family betray those who know better to ( Mark 13: 12-13 ) Because some will know the truth ( the elect, etc. ). And all will be deceived : ( mark 13: 19-20 ; 2 thess 2: 9-11 ) etc etc etc etc.

Christ:
23 But take ye heed: behold, I have foretold you all things. ( He told us a few things.. ?? No . He told us all, things. )






BookEndz ::
Is this the 2nd coming? Jesus told them, NOT YOU, that they'll be persecuted from city to city, the Jews will not give up their persecution until the LORD Comes IN JUDGMENT...This is the only way you make sense of this, unless you want say that these disciples of Christ are living today.

Nathan 3:::
We are disciples of Christ living today. Disiplined in the Faith of Christ, we are Christians.


Bookends:::
In Mark 13:19 that you quoted, Jesus said, For in those days there will be tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the creation which God created until this time, nor ever shall be.

BookEnDzz:::
Jesus is clearly talking about the time that was close at hand, for it it wasn't, "UNTIL THAT TIME"], would have made your interpretation more believable. This really doesn't prove or disprove anything, especially the futurist view.

Nathan 3:: You mentioned "Close at hand" .. I have a question for you. Do you think John, was at Christ return, or in 96 AD at the isl of Patmos??

John was taken to the Lord's Day, Revelation chapter 1: verse 10- I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet . The Lords Day is the day Christ returns. John was taken there. So when Christ or John, says, the times is close at hand. It was from their perspective, because John was literally taken to The day Christ returns.

Christ taught the same way why ? Because Revelation is Christ Revelation. You think Christ would not know about His own Revelation that He would show John ?


That's how I see it.

 

[Bookends]

Nathan3 : Your forgetting to keep in mind this is taking about Christ return :

I'm not forgetting how you see, as Christs physical return...I don't see it that way, I see ask Christ coming in Judgment against Jerusalem.

You have to remember that the bible written to a particular group of people, example, Galatians was written to the Galatians, 1 Timothy was written to Timothy, with a specific message in mind of the author in which the Holy Spirit conveyed God message. Revelations was written to the 1st century Churches in Revelations 2-3. The Bible was written TO them, But written for US, to gleam all the Godly insight concerning the full knowledge of the lover of our souls. If you want to personalize the books of the bible and think that everything directly applies to you or us, then I leave you that, I think you are in error. I doubt you won't understand what I'm trying to say...It's ok, I don't mind being in the minority.

I'm sure you think I'm in error, so be it...We won't agree.

 

[Bookends]

Nathan 3:: You mentioned "Close at hand" .. I have a question for you. Do you think John, was at Christ return, or in 96 AD at the isl of Patmos??

I believe Christ's judgment was close at hand. And John was near, or close at hand for that. If you read anything I post in the past, you'll know I don't believe Revelation was written in 96AD. I hold to an earlier date, before or around 66AD. I believe the early date has more evidences internally (biblically) and externally (other sources). See every time you see the word coming or clouds you have this notion that it has to be a physical manifestation of Christ, but you ignore the genre and OT scripture uses this same type of language that refers to God judgment on cities or nations.

John was taken to the Lord's Day, Revelation chapter 1: verse 10- I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet . The Lords Day is the day Christ returns. John was taken there. So when Christ or John, says, the times is close at hand. It was from their perspective, because John was literally taken to The day Christ returns.

This is your assumption. Where are these 7 Churches mentioned in Revelations 2 and 3? They existed back then, they are no longer here today. There are many passages in the OT that uses "the Lord's day" as a phrase for judgment, His coming in judgment. Do you need me to produce the passages in scripture, it won't be hard. John in Revelation never suggests that his visions are far into the future, but are the things at are near, at hand...meaning right around the corner...

Christ taught the same way why ? Because Revelation is Christ Revelation. You think Christ would not know about His own Revelation that He would show John ?

What I think is that you grossly misinterpret Christ's intent and words. In Matt. Jesus uses the phrase "this generation" about 5 or 6 times, maybe more, I'm not counting atm, all these times context clearly shows Jesus is talking about the current generation of those living in that time. But when it comes to matt. 24 you want twist "this generation" to mean "that" and tell me Jesus is talking about US 2000+ years later, get real.