Response to Critique of Calvinism

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A

Abiding

Guest
I didn't really express myself well there. I mean, in a void a Calvinistic Christian would do no more or less good than the same Christian in a void as an Armenian.

If we talk about the fruit of these doctrines historically then yes we have a horrible bloody trail to follow. Like I said before, I view Calvin as a politician more than a preacher. As such he left polarization and strife in his wake until our own time.

Yes, I meant it shouldn't have much effect. I even mean that if it wasn't for the history and spite and inheirited anger over the issue this issue would not hurt anyone. As it is it really only hurts people rather than helps them :(

But I am saying that all this strife and division is a fruit of the people and politics around the topic, not the topic itself. People have made an idol of these isms and thats where the warring comes from, not the ideas in and of themselves.
I get it now. Im really glad i spent so many years not knowing or
to not have been confronted with either one really. Sure enuf hard
to deal with. I hope i can go back to avoiding both sides.
But lately ive been decompressing. Shouldnt last long.
 
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tdrew777

Guest
JGPS am not sure what my label should be. In this OP, I am responding to a criticism of Calvinism, not declaring myself hyper-Calvinist. One label I put out provisionally for myself is "Reformed, but not Reformable". I must admit that I surprised myself with some of my strong Calvin-esque statements on this post; I did not know I had it in me. I have little inclination to study what Calvin said, as I believe that some of his students are closer to the heart of God then he was. Once Reformed thinking was written out and critiqued, it came closer to the real scriptural meaning. I am not as confident in the positions stated as the choice of wording might indicate. I am here more to find my own way, to have my thinking critiqued, than to gather a following.
 

loveme1

Senior Member
Oct 30, 2011
8,083
190
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One thing i would like to ask.

If you picked up the Bible and it had no commentary do you believe you would believe the same things you believe now?
 
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tdrew777

Guest
One thing i would like to ask.

If you picked up the Bible and it had no commentary do you believe you would believe the same things you believe now?
My bible has no commentary.
We should not be so sure of what the Holy Spirit says to us as individuals that we do not hear what he is saying to others.

Western culture has the weakness of interpreting many of the "you"s in scripture as being singular, addressed to invididuals, when they may very well be plural, addressed to the church. For instance:

I Thes 4:8 Therefore he that rejecteth, rejecteth not man, but God, who giveth his Holy Spirit unto you.

Was the Holy Spirit given to an individual "you", or a plural "you", the church?

Western culture has the strength academic rigor. When the Holy Spirit has spoken, we write down what he said and have others critique what we wrote based on what the Holy Spirit has revealed to them from scripture.

We should take advantage of our culture's strengths and avoid its weaknesses.
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
OOOppppss...I missed your first line and tried to delete the above post. Of course I don't agree with you......yet.....

One example of someone who had great understanding in the presence of God and yet could not believe: Balaam. He saw God and understood God's plans well enough to concoct a temporally effective strategy against them. Men are capable of some understandiing about God apart from God - but that understanding is itself morally bad. Men can understand a simply not find faith in their soul.

I agree that unbelief is an act of the will and causes hardening. No problem with men doing evil on their own, apart from God. But nothing that men do on their own apart from God can be morally good. That is the total depravity that I see in scripture.
Agree 100 %.

But doing nothing good, and humbling yourself and taking Gods gift is not the same. It is trusting the god of heaven and his son. Thus God gets all the glory.
 

loveme1

Senior Member
Oct 30, 2011
8,083
190
63
My bible has no commentary.
We should not be so sure of what the Holy Spirit says to us as individuals that we do not hear what he is saying to others.

Western culture has the weakness of interpreting many of the "you"s in scripture as being singular, addressed to invididuals, when they may very well be plural, addressed to the church. For instance:

I Thes 4:8 Therefore he that rejecteth, rejecteth not man, but God, who giveth his Holy Spirit unto you.

Was the Holy Spirit given to an individual "you", or a plural "you", the church?

Western culture has the strength academic rigor. When the Holy Spirit has spoken, we write down what he said and have others critique what we wrote based on what the Holy Spirit has revealed to them from scripture.

We should take advantage of our culture's strengths and avoid its weaknesses.
The Messiah said:

4Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born? 5Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. 6That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. 8The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit
I think this clears the singular plural question.

If the Holy Spirit tells you something and others disagree what then?
 
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lapis

Guest
Do we really have a God who says, "You, you and you will go to hell. and you, you and you are OK." That's not my God.
 
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tdrew777

Guest
The Messiah said:



I think this clears the singular plural question.

If the Holy Spirit tells you something and others disagree what then?
If the Holy Spirit says something to me (individually) I do that - we are in agreement on that point. My own life is a great testimony to listening to the Holy Spirit as opposed to following the Pastors in my home church. I remain under their umbrella, but on a different continent. They had a different vision of my life than what I had heard from the Holy Spirit. But if you think that John 3 clears up if I These 4:8 is singular or plural, I would call that western cultural bias.
 
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tdrew777

Guest
Do we really have a God who says, "You, you and you will go to hell. and you, you and you are OK." That's not my God.
God sends some to hell and some He saves. He is the judge who determines who goes where. Arminians and Calvinists all agree to that. What point are you trying to make?
 

homwardbound

Senior Member
Oct 24, 2012
14,842
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One of the criticisms offered by Rogers, Ronnie W. (in "Reflections of a Disenchanted Calvinist: The Disquieting Realities of Calvinism" CrossBooks. Kindle Edition) is the over-emphasis of the sovereignty of God. Because of the Calvinist view that man is passive in regeneration and justification, the responsibility for salvation of some, (hence for damnation of the rest), lays squarely on God's shoulders. That God might be responsible for damnation paints a horrifying picture of his role as father.

For as Arminian as one's theology might be, the same "problem" of people going to hell emerges. It does not take the responsibility for damnation off of God's shoulders because you slide it on to men's shoulders. God, even without a Calvinist definition of His sovereignty, could have chosen to create men differently, but did not. God could have ensured that no one went to hell under any reasonable Christian theological framework, but did not. Shifting soteriological sovereignty from God to man does not eliminate any problems and shifts the basis of salvation from grace to works.

Full ethical responsibility must be born by both creature and creator in any Christian theological framework. A high (Calvinistic) view of the sovereignty of God does not detract from the freedom of choice of individuals. God has decreed to work through the agency of human hearts. Christian good flows from a solid ethical character which God himself has restored over the power of sin. This good character overflows, assuring that external norms will be observed, not by external compulsion, but rather through an internal passion that burns in the heart of every true believer. This occurs precisely because of the sovereign Lordship of God. His authority and control do not suppress free will, but rather give free will its place in the human heart.

Context: Over the last several months I have had the blessing of having time to read some theology. Now, I am drawing theological conclusions. In this thread, I am trying to talk myself into being Calvinist, and inviting (informed) comments from the Christianchat peanut gallery. Call it a poor man's college education; you are invited to participate voluntarily as peer/teacher, as the shoe fits.
You know I see it short and sweet Adam and Eve when ate from the tree they lost free will, in a sense. for they and all born after them may have tried to do good but could not. they became slaves to self survival for God put them out of the Garden to till the ground until the redeemer came to free us by belief thus having free will restored that was original and after this choice in belief as shown even in the Old Testament we are able today to eat off of the tree of life ( Christ Jesus) where as through Christ that evil tree has been destroyed, therefore new life has begun by and through belief
 
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Chr

Guest
God gets all the glory for our salvation. Salvation is of the Lord, Its biblical.Some people understand that more than others,but thats okay, we are all learning,learning takes time,pride is our enemy.When we were new believers We knew less than we do now.Scripture alone is our authority.
 
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Chr

Guest
God gets all the glory for our salvation. Salvation is of the Lord, Its biblical.Some people understand that more than others,but thats okay, we are all learning,learning takes time,pride is our enemy.When we were new believers We knew less than we do now.Scripture alone is our authority.
And by the grace of God we are learning more,and none of us knows everything.
 

homwardbound

Senior Member
Oct 24, 2012
14,842
80
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The Messiah said:



I think this clears the singular plural question.

If the Holy Spirit tells you something and others disagree what then?
I know others disagreed with Noah until, and if abraham had gone to counselors what then? Oh and Job had counselors and Job told them where to go, and in the walk of Christ thier was a blind man and the first thing the disciples asked who sinned him or his pearents that this man was blind? The Spirit leads where the Spirit leads nad it has nothing to do with the Law it has to do with new life us all looking back at the cross where life is found in theresurrection not the death, but the death was needed first before life could be given, you hear that given a giftyou do nothing but believe recieve and thank God forever for this miraculous gift in appreciation
 

homwardbound

Senior Member
Oct 24, 2012
14,842
80
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God gets all the glory for our salvation. Salvation is of the Lord, Its biblical.Some people understand that more than others,but thats okay, we are all learning,learning takes time,pride is our enemy.When we were new believers We knew less than we do now.Scripture alone is our authority.
You said scripture alone is our authority, brother God the Son God the Father and God the Holy Ghost is our only Authority and God has chosen not to be a commodant as man has. God is your friend and through the Son has made it possible to appraoch God the Father because God the Son has taken away all sin from his Father's sight (john1:29) so Father can deal with me, you and anyone else on the basis of the new nature installed in you at belief,(Ephesians 1:13) and is working this out for you to become awre of and see the Love of God shed abroad in your new heart that God installed from in you the first day of belief. Now, think on this what is it that Father wants you to have in this new life? Is it things of this world a new spouse, a new this or that? No , you earn tall those things from this world and this world is emnity with God, his kingdom is not of this world.
So waht is it that we are to inherit? Could it be his love his type? Read it best described 1 Cor 13 yes this is what God wants to shed abroad in the believers heart hids type of Love which is absolutely unnatural to mnankind. This is a gift to be recieved by you from God and the scripture is a great start to see this but it is the Love of God that is the Absolute, the word is a roadway and a good one but only if the Holy Ghost is in you and is if you and I will listen. Therefore it is not the word (scripture) that sets us free it is the truth (the meaning of) scripture that sets ibe free
 

homwardbound

Senior Member
Oct 24, 2012
14,842
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And by the grace of God we are learning more,and none of us knows everything.
God does and will reveal truth to each and everyone that belong to him and oit is always LOVE his type
 

homwardbound

Senior Member
Oct 24, 2012
14,842
80
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Do we really have a God who says, "You, you and you will go to hell. and you, you and you are OK." That's not my God.
If one makes the conscious choice of unbelief, in other words had the true chance to change thier mind then that one or all those that have not changed thier minds from unbelief to belief know they are not forgiven for to make a conscious choice to not believe is blasphemy against the Holy Ghost and will not ever be forgiven.
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
164
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You know I see it short and sweet Adam and Eve when ate from the tree they lost free will, in a sense. for they and all born after them may have tried to do good but could not. they became slaves to self survival for God put them out of the Garden to till the ground until the redeemer came to free us by belief thus having free will restored that was original and after this choice in belief as shown even in the Old Testament we are able today to eat off of the tree of life ( Christ Jesus) where as through Christ that evil tree has been destroyed, therefore new life has begun by and through belief
i kinda like this, home:)
but we're not fully restored since we are in this flesh body yet.
it's accomplished, we still have to hold on til the day is done.
z

Colossians 2
Alive in Christ

6Therefore, as you received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk in him, 7rooted and built up in him and established in the faith, just as you were taught, abounding in thanksgiving.

8See to it that no one takes you captive by philosophy and empty deceit, according to human tradition, according to the elemental spiritsa of the world, and not according to Christ. 9For in him the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily, 10and you have been filled in him, who is the head of all rule and authority. 11In him also you were circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ, 12having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the powerful working of God, who raised him from the dead. 13And you, who were dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses, 14by canceling the record of debt that stood against us with its legal demands. This he set aside, nailing it to the cross. 15He disarmed the rulers and authoritiesb and put them to open shame, by triumphing over them in him.c
 

JGPS

Banned
Jan 11, 2013
629
0
0
JGPS am not sure what my label should be. In this OP, I am responding to a criticism of Calvinism, not declaring myself hyper-Calvinist. One label I put out provisionally for myself is "Reformed, but not Reformable". I must admit that I surprised myself with some of my strong Calvin-esque statements on this post; I did not know I had it in me. I have little inclination to study what Calvin said, as I believe that some of his students are closer to the heart of God then he was. Once Reformed thinking was written out and critiqued, it came closer to the real scriptural meaning. I am not as confident in the positions stated as the choice of wording might indicate. I am here more to find my own way, to have my thinking critiqued, than to gather a following.
I see. If we're only talking about that particular critique in your original post I'd say that your rebuttal is right. Mr. Ronnie Rogers case against Calvinism really isn't much different than The Emergent Church's critique of Christianity as a whole to me. And I'd say he's wrong for many of the same reasons. You're right that in any decent Christian theology God must take responsibility for damning people to hell, it is his prerogative and is not wrong for him to do so. I agree that any decent Armenian will say the same.
 

homwardbound

Senior Member
Oct 24, 2012
14,842
80
48
i kinda like this, home:)
but we're not fully restored since we are in this flesh body yet.
it's accomplished, we still have to hold on til the day is done.
z

Colossians 2
Alive in Christ

6Therefore, as you received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk in him, 7rooted and built up in him and established in the faith, just as you were taught, abounding in thanksgiving.

8See to it that no one takes you captive by philosophy and empty deceit, according to human tradition, according to the elemental spiritsa of the world, and not according to Christ. 9For in him the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily, 10and you have been filled in him, who is the head of all rule and authority. 11In him also you were circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ, 12having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the powerful working of God, who raised him from the dead. 13And you, who were dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses, 14by canceling the record of debt that stood against us with its legal demands. This he set aside, nailing it to the cross. 15He disarmed the rulers and authoritiesb and put them to open shame, by triumphing over them in him.c
ABSOLUTELY AND THEREFORE SEE THAT BY BELIEF YOU ARE DEAD TO SIN (flesh, Carnal mind set)

Zone what about if you believe you are dead to sin (flesh) by belief what and who will have your being. If you come to the wisdom that you are dead to self, by the operation of God your earthly body. Then would you be thus crucified never the less live as a baby in the womb did for about 9 months, totally dependant on its LIFE-Source, in this case MOM, then born into this world and in need of the true Life-source the life-giving Spirit (ZOE LIFE) FOUND ONLY IN CHRIST
Romans 6:1[ Dead to Sin, Alive in Christ ] What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase?
Romans 6:1-3 (in Context) Romans 6 (Whole Chapter) Other Translations
Romans 6:11In the same way, count yourselves dead to sin but alive to God in Christ Jesus.
Romans 6:10-12 (in Context) Romans 6 (Whole Chapter) Other Translations
Romans 7:2For example, by law a married woman is bound to her husband as long as he is alive, but if her husband dies, she is released from the law that binds her to him.
Romans 7:1-3 (in Context) Romans 7 (Whole Chapter) Other Translations
Romans 7:4So, my brothers and sisters, you also died to the law through the body of Christ, that you might belong to another, to him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit for God.
Romans 7:3-5 (in Context) Romans 7 (Whole Chapter) Other Translations
(Dying to the Law is the same as dying to our flesh (carnal minds) where our bodies are no longer control us freed from the Law, rituals, regulations , new moon,Sabbath and on and on as you posted above in Coillosians
Romans 7:9Once I was alive apart from the law; but when the commandment came, sin sprang to life and I died.
Romans 7:8-10 (in Context) Romans 7 (Whole Chapter) Other Translations
Romans 8:13For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live.
Romans 8:34Who then is the one who condemns? No one. Christ Jesus who died—more than that, who was raised to life—is at the right hand of God and is also interceding for us.
Romans 8:33-35 (in Context) Romans 8 (Whole Chapter) Other Translations
1 Corinthians 15:36How foolish! What you sow does not come to life unless it dies.

Tell me anyone how are anyone of us going to pass on to the ZOE life unless we first believe we are dead to and alive to God and quit riding the fence, if I, you or anyone else believes they are dead to the carnal nature and have sought directly from God truth then they are freed to do what God has given them, and this is life his life living in and through you the believer. we just abide (believe, have faith) in the tree. The mature are nothing more than branches ready to bear fruit from the tree of life. The fruit are the inmature believers hanging on the tree branch that the tree produced in and through the branch (YOU) the mature one that abides in the tree of life. The branch only abides in the tree by forever being available to be used by the tree of life to have produced through it, oyu the branch some 30, 60 and a 100 fold . The branch itself never does any producing at all ever. It can only bear the fruit, for the branch apart from the tree of life can't produce life and it dries up being on its own, trying to grunt and produce life, and never gets satisfied completely for in truth it needs to be grafted in and this can only be done through asking the tree of life (Jesus Christ) to do this and then the branch can rest because of belief and fruit is produced in and through the branch, the branch estatic over it not ever having to do amy work, its burden is light and the yoke is easy, the branch having a cluster of fruit that it bears with no pride or boastfulnees in the way. NOW all this takes is DIE TO SELF with God and then be alive just start to rckon and believe you are dead to sin (flesh) (carnal mindset) and as you renew your mind to this new mindset from God the Fathers vantage point, you will know truth and this truth will set you free in him.
I tell you: if the truth will set us free, then ERROR will put us in bondage. Therefore if I am in bondage not free, then there would have to be ERROR in my TRUTH. Then just maybe would I not might need to rethink the truth that the world has taught me or and I taught myelf. For only God the Spirit of God is able to teach truth and this is the Holy Ghost that relates all truth from God the Father and God the Son and this truth lives in the ones that believe, therefore you all shall be set free here and now today, the sooner you, I and all believers come to this truth reckon thyself dead to sin and alive to God and after awhile you will be this and this daily as you continue daily to die to sin and quit worry over any future problems, for tommorrow is not yet here and there is enough warfare in the present ot be focused on any future problems that might occur or not
Thanks for reading this, love you all, for I know you all if not already will be set free and just live every day in the present ofr it is a present when one lives in the present so unwrapthe bow and see life more abundantly, knowing that all things work for the good of God and you , me and alll others being in God will work for our good as well some way somehow whilein the presence of evil coming at us from all directions, learning to count it as all joy singing in the midst of adversity. So let us rejoice as we go through adversity and be freed from this worlds traps of others trying to be go betweens of you and your savior, Jesus Christ is the only mediator between God the Father and you there are no denominations in between or non denominations
Homwardbound