Response to Critique of Calvinism

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tdrew777

Guest
#1
#1
One of the criticisms offered by Rogers, Ronnie W. (in "Reflections of a Disenchanted Calvinist: The Disquieting Realities of Calvinism" CrossBooks. Kindle Edition) is the over-emphasis of the sovereignty of God. Because of the Calvinist view that man is passive in regeneration and justification, the responsibility for salvation of some, (hence for damnation of the rest), lays squarely on God's shoulders. That God might be responsible for damnation paints a horrifying picture of his role as father.

For as Arminian as one's theology might be, the same "problem" of people going to hell emerges. It does not take the responsibility for damnation off of God's shoulders because you slide it on to men's shoulders. God, even without a Calvinist definition of His sovereignty, could have chosen to create men differently, but did not. God could have ensured that no one went to hell under any reasonable Christian theological framework, but did not. Shifting soteriological sovereignty from God to man does not eliminate any problems and shifts the basis of salvation from grace to works.

Full ethical responsibility must be born by both creature and creator in any Christian theological framework. A high (Calvinistic) view of the sovereignty of God does not detract from the freedom of choice of individuals. God has decreed to work through the agency of human hearts. Christian good flows from a solid ethical character which God himself has restored over the power of sin. This good character overflows, assuring that external norms will be observed, not by external compulsion, but rather through an internal passion that burns in the heart of every true believer. This occurs precisely because of the sovereign Lordship of God. His authority and control do not suppress free will, but rather give free will its place in the human heart.

Context: Over the last several months I have had the blessing of having time to read some theology. Now, I am drawing theological conclusions. In this thread, I am trying to talk myself into being Calvinist, and inviting (informed) comments from the Christianchat peanut gallery. Call it a poor man's college education; you are invited to participate voluntarily as peer/teacher, as the shoe fits.
 
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Abiding

Guest
#2
#2
This will take you into philosophy that requires alot of magical dancing
and learned skilled eisegesis and when it comes down to it, the most experienced,
and usually the brightest person wins. But i hope you learn from your thread.

Someone told me lately i was on the fence. But i look at it like one prof. put it
and thats that im in the tension of two truths that seem contradictory yet
Ill stay there and save myself time twisting scripture. Both are true. Man chooses.
God chooses. I might just not be bright enuf.:p
 
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cfultz3

Guest
#3
#3
Hey TD,

That is some good advice from Abiding.
 
RedTent

RedTent

Banned
#4
Oct 31, 2011
8,200
182
0
#4
I would like to understand why anyone would want to study isms? Isn’t it enough trying to understand the spiritual realm of God, and isn’t that in scripture and how our history has reflected how God operates?

Scripture says we see darkly, as through a glass. That applies to all men. Seems to me I have enough trouble handling my own bias without taking on another person’s.
 
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cfultz3

Guest
#5
#5
RedTent said:
I would like to understand why anyone would want to study isms? Isn’t it enough trying to understand the spiritual realm of God, and isn’t that in scripture and how our history has reflected how God operates?

Scripture says we see darkly, as through a glass. That applies to all men. Seems to me I have enough trouble handling my own bias without taking on another person’s.
Click to expand...
I would be happy just to know what God has to say in Scripture. Yeah Red, why worry about learning another person's bias.


Good post from ya.
 
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Abiding

Guest
#6
#6
A message to our calvinists friends: IF you want to gather sentiment for the heretics
and give them place and make them look like the innocent underdogs and in the contrast
of their patient endurance and love make them appear like the godly ones then just attack
them harshly and call them alot of names. And dont stop, keep it up till you look like the heretic.
Then have your friends "like" your post and high five in pride. Yup thatl kill truth real fast....good going!:p

The Lord's Approved Workman

14Of these things put them in remembrance, charging them before the Lord that they strive not about words to no profit, but to the subverting of the hearers.15Study to show yourself approved to God, a workman that needs not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.16But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase to more ungodliness.17And their word will eat as does a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus;18Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.19Nevertheless the foundation of God stands sure, having this seal, The Lord knows them that are his. And, Let every one that names the name of Christ depart from iniquity.20But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honor, and some to dishonor.21If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel to honor, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared to every good work.22Flee also youthful lusts: but follow righteousness, faith, charity, peace, with them that call on the Lord out of a pure heart.23But foolish and unlearned questions avoid, knowing that they do engender strifes.24And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle to all men, apt to teach, patient,25In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;26And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.
 
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tdrew777

Guest
#7
#7
Abiding: I'm confused. Have I insulted anyone or written something disrespectful on another thread? Could you take the time to quote the post where I did that back to me; (PM so as not to shame me in public, please). I can't repent because I don't yet see where I've done that.
 
zone

zone

Senior Member
#8
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
164
63
#8
hi drew:)
i am a Confessional Lutheran, but prior to this was Reformed.
i can not say i ever held to 5 pt Calvinism,
though some of my friends identify as Calvinists.

i'm not qualified to answer some of the more involved questions you might have,
but would like to say i love my Calvinist brothers and sisters,
and am certain they can help you in your studies.

one of the things we have in common is monergism.
love zone
 
tribesman

tribesman

Senior Member
#9
Oct 13, 2011
4,612
274
83
#9
tdrew777 said:
..Have I insulted anyone or written something disrespectful on another thread?...
Click to expand...
Don't mind that scornspam. It was made in contention and envy against those who happen to take side for something.
 
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tdrew777

Guest
#10
#10
Abiding said:
But i look at it like one prof. put it
and thats that im in the tension of two truths that seem contradictory yet
Ill stay there and save myself time twisting scripture. Both are true. Man chooses.
God chooses. I might just not be bright enuf.:p
Click to expand...
I took the time and got into the scripture and I came to he same point as you: a high view of God's sovereignty does not contradict a high view of real choice by men. The contradiction is apparent, not real. There is, therefore, no reason to back off on definitions of the sovereignty of God. The bible declares Him sovereign over both small details (falling birds) and great events. No real problem.

But some here may have spent more time than I...
 
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psychomom

Guest
#11
#11
maybe it would be helpful to define the word sovereign? :)

-ellie
 
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tdrew777

Guest
#12
#12
That is exactly it, psychomom. The Calvinist/Arminian dispute hinges on differing definitions of "sovereign". Since there is no real contradiction between sovereignty and human free will, we should accept the full force of all the scripture says about God being sovereign. There is no reason to interpret the clear and consistent scriptural witness of the absolute sovereignty of God through any kind of theological lenses; other verses speak of human choice in no way mitigate against the absolute sovereignty of God as expressed in scripture.

Our God is in the heavens; He hath done whatsoever He pleased." (Ps. cxv. 8.) "All the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and He doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?" (Dan. iv. 35.) "All that is in the heaven and in the earth is thine." (1 Chron. xxix. 11.) "The earth is the Lord's, and the fulness thereof; the world, and they that dwell therein." (Ps. xxiv. 1.) "Thine is the kingdom, O Lord, and thou art exalted as head above all." (1 Chron. xxix. 11.) "Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine." (Ez. xviii. 4.) "Woe unto him that striveth with his Maker! Let the potsherd strive with the potsherds of the earth. Shall the clay say to him that fashioned it, What makest thou? or thy work, He hath no hands?" (Is. xlv. 9.) "Is it not lawful for me to do what I will with mine own?" (Matt. xx. 15.) He "worketh all things after the counsel of his own will." (Eph. i. 11.) "Of Him, and through Him, and to Him are all things: to whom be glory forever. Amen." (Rom. xi. 36.)

I'm sinking in even DEEPER. Where is a good Wesleyan or Pentecostal when you need them?
 
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Grandpa

Senior Member
#13
Jun 24, 2011
11,551
3,188
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#13
I don't think a person can be talked into a certain theology. And if you could be talked into it you could probably just as easily be talked out of it.

It would be better to pray for wisdom and discernment and read the bible.
 
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Abiding

Guest
#14
#14
tdrew777 said:
Abiding: I'm confused. Have I insulted anyone or written something disrespectful on another thread? Could you take the time to quote the post where I did that back to me; (PM so as not to shame me in public, please). I can't repent because I don't yet see where I've done that.
Click to expand...
No Drew that was a general statement and for sure it wasnt to you.
 
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Abiding

Guest
#15
#15
tdrew777 said:
I took the time and got into the scripture and I came to he same point as you: a high view of God's sovereignty does not contradict a high view of real choice by men. The contradiction is apparent, not real. There is, therefore, no reason to back off on definitions of the sovereignty of God. The bible declares Him sovereign over both small details (falling birds) and great events. No real problem.

But some here may have spent more time than I...
Click to expand...
Exactly it wouldnt be right to back off on anything the Word of God teaches i agree.
 
tribesman

tribesman

Senior Member
#16
Oct 13, 2011
4,612
274
83
#16
Grandpa said:
I don't think a person can be talked into a certain theology. And if you could be talked into it you could probably just as easily be talked out of it.

It would be better to pray for wisdom and discernment and read the bible.
Click to expand...
True. However there must be a willingness to act upon/obey the insight/knowledge one receives and to submit to and work with the teachers who contribute to the giving. If one cannot receive something good and true from anyone else until "God shows me" (usually it is mostly about feelings) or before all is understood intellectually, then it will be but a lone sailing outside the will of God, with missed blessings and even possibly loss of reward as result. Individualism or "me alone and the Bible" is not the way that God leads his flock to growth. The church and its edification must always be the base for sound doctrine. This is not a private matter.
 
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Abiding

Guest
#17
#17
I never got the impression from the bible alone to take sides in this debate.
When the war starts up i see both sides fudging:pand usually mangle the
bible and each other.

If someone needs to take sides, thats not my business. Ill stay where it seems
to me the bible is and to me it teaches both. And i dont feel the need to jam
in puzzle pieces where they dont fit, or make statements or give answer questions
the bible doesnt.

I do see the importance of systematic theology. Until it comes to forcing philosophical
questions into the exegesis. thats my opinion.
 
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Abiding

Guest
#18
#18
tribesman said:
True. However there must be a willingness to act upon/obey the insight/knowledge one receives and to submit to and work with the teachers who contribute to the giving. If one cannot receive something good and true from anyone else until "God shows me" (usually it is mostly about feelings) or before all is understood intellectually, then it will be but a lone sailing outside the will of God, with missed blessings and even possibly loss of reward as result. Individualism or "me alone and the Bible" is not the way that God leads his flock to growth. The church and its edification must always be the base for sound doctrine. This is not a private matter.
Click to expand...

This is what charismatics say. Ill stick with Acts 17:11. Which by the way wouldnt be necessarily a exhortation
to someone who is "lone sailing", or "me alone in the bible" . Ill pass on the "feeling" statement at least on this post.:p

Although a major blessing comes from the church life, and a person will suffer without it. I would never put it above
individual study. Especially in our day. You may find yourself trapped in a false teaching cult with that attitude and
never see the light of day.
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
#19
#19
tdrew777 said:
That is exactly it, psychomom. The Calvinist/Arminian dispute hinges on differing definitions of "sovereign".
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Here is the first thing I would suggest. Don't make it a calvanism vs arminian dispute. Seek gods answers and see where it leads you. If you do, most likely you will be like many of us, which side with niether calvin or arminian. But have taken the strong truths from both sides..

The problem with pitting one side with the other, as you may have noticed. Is that when you "stand your ground" you will defend your belief at all costs. even to the point of misrepresenting many of that the other say (ie, an arminain in its true form will call a calvanist licentious or easy believism, which is not true) which is a dangeorus place to be when you are seeking Gods truth.

Since there is no real contradiction between sovereignty and human free will, we should accept the full force of all the scripture says about God being sovereign. There is no reason to interpret the clear and consistent scriptural witness of the absolute sovereignty of God through any kind of theological lenses; other verses speak of human choice in no way mitigate against the absolute sovereignty of God as expressed in scripture.

Our God is in the heavens; He hath done whatsoever He pleased." (Ps. cxv. 8.) "All the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and He doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?" (Dan. iv. 35.) "All that is in the heaven and in the earth is thine." (1 Chron. xxix. 11.) "The earth is the Lord's, and the fulness thereof; the world, and they that dwell therein." (Ps. xxiv. 1.) "Thine is the kingdom, O Lord, and thou art exalted as head above all." (1 Chron. xxix. 11.) "Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine." (Ez. xviii. 4.) "Woe unto him that striveth with his Maker! Let the potsherd strive with the potsherds of the earth. Shall the clay say to him that fashioned it, What makest thou? or thy work, He hath no hands?" (Is. xlv. 9.) "Is it not lawful for me to do what I will with mine own?" (Matt. xx. 15.) He "worketh all things after the counsel of his own will." (Eph. i. 11.) "Of Him, and through Him, and to Him are all things: to whom be glory forever. Amen." (Rom. xi. 36.)

I'm sinking in even DEEPER. Where is a good Wesleyan or Pentecostal when you need them?
Click to expand...

lol. How about a good bible believing Christian. as someone said earlier. Why study ISMS.. look for truth!!
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
#20
#20
tribesman said:
True. However there must be a willingness to act upon/obey the insight/knowledge one receives and to submit to and work with the teachers who contribute to the giving. If one cannot receive something good and true from anyone else until "God shows me" (usually it is mostly about feelings) or before all is understood intellectually, then it will be but a lone sailing outside the will of God, with missed blessings and even possibly loss of reward as result. Individualism or "me alone and the Bible" is not the way that God leads his flock to growth. The church and its edification must always be the base for sound doctrine. This is not a private matter.
Click to expand...
here is the problem. God has led many people into truth, that is why he gives us the HS. What we see (I have witnessed it many times) is that these people come together, having all come up with the same conclusion, and formed a body. It is how the church started, it is how the church grows, and it is how it should continue to be.

Litening to men, and trying to decide who is right and who is wrong when all you get is "my church is right, no my churhc is right.. We have history to back us,, blah blah blah is dangerous, and leads to following men, not the word of God.

Paul commended a church who did not take him at his word blindly, but studied the scripture and tested everything paul said. This is what we all should do. Not by reading church history. Or studying other works of men. But listening to men, Studying, Testing each gospel and doctrine, and see if why they say is truth or not. Our guide is the bible not men, that is why God spent thousands of years putting his word together.. so we would not be left alone not know who to distinguish truth from mens ideas of what truth is.
 
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