Sovereignty of God and Moral Responsibility of Man

[Elin]

One last thing..Romans 9-11 may not come right out and say it
but the plan of God to find all in unbelief to show mercy to all.
Was also a way to totally change over from the Old to the New
covenant. Did i say that right?

Close enough.

No worse than the rest of what you say.

 

[Elin]

If by "His glory", you are referring to the radiance of God's divine perfection and holiness (the simplest and shortest term I could come up with), I would agree. Because it would be remiss to speak of God's holiness at the exclusion of His justice ... and we know that His own are justified only thru faith (Romans 5:1). Elin ... for clarification sake for all reading this thread, are you suggesting or saying that God "requires" that most of mankind remain lost in order that He receive His deserved glory ? I don't believe this to be the case ... but I'm wondering here if perhaps this isn't how some are interpreting what I have highlighted in your above post.

Thanks for the opportunity to clarify.
I am addressing the question of why God doesn't just forgive everyone's debt without it being paid.
After all, he is sovereign, he can do as he pleases.

He does not because his justice does not allow it.

If he were to override his justice, he would be inconsistent with himself, less than God.

He created for his glory. He would then be robbing himself of the very thing for which he created.

Is that better?

 

[Abiding]

Are you saying I'm a Calvinist?

Not so. I am a Paulist.

Opps i need new glasses.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Thanks for the opportunity to clarify.
I am addressing the question of why God doesn't just forgive everyone's debt without it being paid.
After all, he is sovereign, he can do as he pleases.

He does not because his justice does not allow it.

If he were to override his justice, he would be inconsistent with himself, less than God.

He created for his glory. He would then be robbing himself of the very thing for which he created.

Is that better?

Exactly, which is why his love could not overrule his justice, However, he could find a way to satisfy his justice and prove he is a God of love, and destroy the lie of satan.

which he did with the cross. And in doing so. Shows his true love, which glorifies him far greater than his justice.

For God so loved THE WORLD. that he gave his only son, that WHOMEVER believes in him, will not perish (due to his justice) but have eternal life (due to his love and mercy)

If God only chose based on no reason but to chose. and died for them only. His love is not shown, and he is not glorified at all.

Yet if he died for all, his love is not only glorified for all time to ALL his creation. But he satisfies his justice.. And is seen more as a God of love, and not just a God of justice.

all who believe are NOT CONDEMNED, all who do NOT BELIEVE are condemned already, because of his justice, But his love was offered to them also. God is glorified, in that he did not just condemn people eternally and justly. but that he offered them hope along with all mankind.

 

[Elin]

Originally Posted by Abiding

The theological concept of “covenant” unites the sovereignty of God (who always takes the
initiative and sets the agenda) with a mandatory initial and continuing repentant, faith response from
man.

Be careful of proof-texting one side of the paradox and depreciating the other!
Be careful of asserting only your favorite doctrine or system of theology

Be careful of altering what the Scriptures state.

............Really? All covenants have faith and obedience atatched.

Really?

Please present the Scriptures which state the conditions God required of man in the following covenants:

With Noah - Ge 9:8-17

With Abraham - Ge 15:9-21

With Phinehas - Nu 25:10-31

With David - 2Sa 7:5-16

With Israel - Jer 31:31-34

 

[Elin]

options:


1a)

God looks through time to see who will be willing
knows Adam will fall
plans Christ's Cross
begins creation
causing men to be born He knows are not willing

1b)

He then works in real time,
trying to convince men He knew wouldn't be willing
to become willing/change their minds

1c)

some change their minds and are saved
[Q: can some He saw choosing Him also change their minds and decide not choose Him?]

...........

2a)

God knew Adam would fall and all men with him
began creation with Christ's Cross planned

2b)

He has decided for reasons known only to Him to limit His omniscience (all foreknowledge by whatever name) concerning specific individuals.
He chooses not to know who would, and who would not be willing.
[Q: why does He do this? choose not to know?]

2c)

He works in real time,
not knowing who will and won't until they do
He writes their names into the Book of Life as they get saved

............

3a)

God knows everything to the last detail.
he knows Adam will fall and all men with him.
He plans Christ's Cross.
begins creation.

3b)

He knows all are fallen
He declares all are condemned
He calls all to repentence

3c)

He wants all men to be saved.
but He can not, is not able to accomplish it unless they are willing.
[did He limit His omniscience before starting creation?]

..........

4a)

God knows everything to the last detail
he knows Adam will fall and all men.
He plans Christ's Cross
begins creation

4b)

He knows all are fallen
He declares all are condemned
He calls all to repentance
some don't come, and He doesn't do anything to change that,
though He could.

4c)

though He wants all men to be saved,
He can not accomplish it, or does not want them - unless they are willing.
He knows if He gave them new hearts they would be willing
but He chooses not to do that.
He knew everything to the last detail before He started

...........

5a)

God knew everything to the last detail.
He knew all were condemned.
He planned Christ's Cross.

5b)

He chose some to be saved from among condemned humanity.
He did not reveal why He made His choices.
He said it was strictly Mercy.

5c)

He announced Himself and His Plan
from the beginning.

5d)

He accomplishes everything He set out to do.
He does not fail - His Will is done to the last detail.
even the condemned will agree that He was Right and Just.

...........

6)

??

Wow! Very thorough thinking it through.

If those in the list, I vote for #5.

 

[Elin]

I must be a Prophet. I did say it would degrade into philosophy.
wait i even said more....i said that the philosophy would overlap
the bible...which would be handling the Word of God deceitfully.
And force answers.

that dont mean i have to sit by Paula White does it?

Why all the questions? Why not just be a gnostic and get it over with and say God wasnt
powerful enuf to make Adam and Eve perfectly obedient? therefore He failed....

Deuteronomy 29:29


[SUP]29 [/SUP]The secret things belong to the Lord our God, but the things revealed belong to us and to our children forever, that we may follow all the words of this law.

You're gettin' closer. . .

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Wow! Very thorough thinking it through.

If those in the list, I vote for #5.

so do I. He offered them his gift also. But they rejected it in unbelief, because as Paul says in romans 1 and 4. They hid the truth of God and exchanged it by making their own Gods who would not condemn them of thier sin, but would bow to their bidding. Thus they will totally agree he was Right and Just, because THEY HAVE NO EXCUSE.

 

[Abiding]

Because what you say does not answer the question which is asked.


What explaining does that need?

All whom God saves willingly come Backwards. you must be thinking of John 6:41-45 (Paul cant help here)


The crowd who asks the question being addressed believes man has free will.

​i prefer to keep the word free out.

 

[Elin]

I apologize again. The sincere part is new to me.
ok. ill ponder on 6. My view is actually more radical
in some aspects than a calvinists.

I think I'll remove your posting privileges after 6:00 pm.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

​i prefer to keep the word free out.

I like this. since the fall of man his will is not free. it comes with a price,, the condemnation of Christ, or your own condemnation..

 

[Abiding]

Be careful of altering what the Scriptures state.

Really?

Please present the Scriptures which state the conditions God required of man in the following covenants:

With Noah - Ge 9:8-17

With Abraham - Ge 15:9-21

With Phinehas - Nu 25:10-31

With David - 2Sa 7:5-16

With Israel - Jer 31:31-34

I already answered to that.

 

[Abiding]

I think I'll remove your posting privileges after 6:00 pm.

which 6pm and what time zone?

 

[Abiding]

Elin, i think i have trouble with answering certain questions still
a little uninformed with reformed beliefs. To save time and because
after some posts after being copied over are just terrible hard to
keep posting responses to. So i need to ask some questions first
to save time in confusion.

To you can a person believe? Or does God have to save him before he
believes?

wait id like a yes or no so ill change question.

Can a man believe the gospel and repent before God saves him?

 

[Abiding]

I started to answer the question of jews in the last 2000 years
in reference to Gods mercy/wrath and it hit me we see so much different.
That my answer prolly wouldnt even be understood.

 

[RickShafer]

My answers in red italics



So it was only a sign at Jesus Baptism? Where does it say that?(Well, if you really want to know, - "And I knew Him not; but He that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, "Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on Him, the same is He which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost". - John 1:33 JKV
Jesus lived in the power of the Holy Spirit
The miracles he performeds he acknowledged were by the power of the Holy Spirit
He spoke the word of God because the Spirit was on him without limit
It is all plainly wirttwen in the Gospels

And no I am not mad (Please rethink your position....to tell if you are)
If anyone believes Jesus is the Son of God, God lives in him and he in God 1John4:15
There is no sacripture that says a person must believe Jesus is God Himself unto salvation, for even Trinitarian ministers admit there is no plain scripture that states Christ is God himself in the bible. You need to have a rethink (Which Jesus? Do you mean the lamb that was slain from before the foundations of the world?)
So why did those Apostles nopt plainly and clearly tell people Christ was God Himself and they must believe that unto salvation.(They plainly did) Bluff won't work I am afraid(You are only bluffing yourself)

'Those given eyes to read can see
That pretty much sums up the problem'
Jesus said
I praise you Lord of Heaven and earth for you have hidden these tjhings from the wise and learned and revealed them to little childrten
Yes Father for this was your good pleasure

Those with simple faith can read the plain word

Now this is eternall life(note what constitutes eternal life) that they may know you(the Father), the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sentJohn17:3)

The Father is greater than I John 14:28

The Father is greater than all John 10:29

Yet for us, there is but ONE GOD, THE Father, from whom all things came and for whom we life, and ONE LORD JESUS CHRIST, through whom all things came and through whom we live 1Cor8:6

No one has seen God at anytime(Keep reading......please keep reading, - - "except He who is sent down from the Father")
1jOHN4:15

No one has seen the Father excvept he who is from God, only he has seen the Father John6:46(Jesus)

So Jesus said no one has seen the Father, and John said, no onew has seen God. Could they be sopeaking of the same person? I think they are(Baaah, Ha, Ha!!)

Are you mad to refuse to accept such plain scripture in stead of contradicting it in favour of what does not plainly state Christ is God Himself? (Please read John 1:1; and stop showing yourself to be a soul who can't rightly divide the Word of God)
Those given eyes to read can see

Absolutely, and those blinded by the academic mind of man cannot

There is nothing 'academic' about it. You refuse the Words of Life.
See the meaning of the term 'elohim' in Genesis 1:26;3:22;11:7; Isa. 6:8;ect. - to see who the Father is speaking to.
"Come let us(plural pronoun), go down and there confuse...."-Gen.11:7
Get help, it is mostly academic for those who are blind.
To those who can read it is plain.
Please read.
Isaiah 9:6 (KJV)
[SUP]6" [/SUP]For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace."

Jesus is God, was God, and always will be God.
He is the Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end.
He was slain from before the foundations of the earth! - (Tell me how a creation can be slain before they were created?)

 

[GreenNnice]

no, nilE, LOL, I like you, I was just saying on page 48 of my post that you have to make a choice, silly, to like me Or, anyone for that matter, you have to LIKE THEM BACK That is how God set things up, that kind of reciprocation.

I think that you're caught up on semantics , a lot of this, your just explaining it in such a way that most that agree with you are not really explaining themselves very well. All agree, I think, that God is in control. Man is not in control, God does things as He wants and IF you step out of line, He will take ya down

God KNOWS our plans for our lives, He want us to follow Him, just like He told Peter in John 21:22. Now, is Peter going to be made to follow God IF Peter decides not to? Probably not. Unless God doesn't want Peter (this is any one named 'Peter') to push a nuclear bomb button that heads to the USA, or, puts a bomb under the White House or under the Parliament. You get the idea

 

[GreenNnice]

Now, also as far as the responsibility of man for being saved, it is ONLY His responsibility to come to the 'wedding feast' with the proper 'garment,' which is..... ? I think it's righteousness myself, one needs to be in right standing with God, and, the king immediately noticed this man going to the wedding feast in parable of the wedding feast was WITHOUT the proper 'garment.' It wasn't 'garments,' it was one garment, so to speak. And, when God tells you to do something you are to DO IT. Or else Who knows/ Great is the mercy of God. But, yes, there is no reason in the world to think that man is in control, God is sovereign, He knows, but man does have a mind and God KNOWS exactly what that man's mind is thinking, has thought, will think....


And, when Jesus says , 'Many are called, few are chosen,' He is speaking of those who He KNOWS will choose Him. Some don't need to be called because their choice is ALREADY MADE Pharoah is a GREAT example of someone who's choice was already made, God never needed to call Pharoah to salvation because God knew already Pharoah's heart was not for following the will of God. This, of course, was a CONSCIOUS CHOICE by Pharoah but God KNEW exactly what that choice was going to be before Pharoah was born. (Psalms 139) . God KNOWS all. NO denying it. He KNOWS. God still can get GRIEVED. God still can suffer human feelings, IF He chooses, there is NOTHING God cannot do that is GOOD, or BAD, to further His sovereign control. And, grieving when man was sinning,incesting, all over the place in early bible times of Noah (Gen. 5) explains the awesome wonder of our great God, who soooo loves us and sooo wants us to choose Him and not other ones and not other things. Or, He can and He will 'flood' out our lives

God is the same yesterday, today, and, forevermore.

It is important to note, He will NOT tempt anyone with evil and He will not lie, per Scripture.

 

[GreenNnice]

"But woe to that man who betrays the Son of Man! It would be better for him if he
had not been born.”

Poor Judas. He was doomed , the moment Satan entered him at the Last Supper, something Judas ALLOWED, wanted,Satan's power shown him . Woe to be him, someone who had his mind made up, he was NEVER going to choose Christ, who FIRST chose him.

The Devil inside , the Devil inside, every single one of us, the Devil inside.


"Get thee behind me, Satan !!!! "

Oh, YES! Praise God !!! We have a choice to have the Devil get inside us, or, maybe, that's wrong way to put it, just the Devil leading us, OR, we can have Him lead us, " for greater is He who is in me than he (the Devil) who is in the world."

 

[mark54]

My answers in red italics



So it was only a sign at Jesus Baptism? Where does it say that?(Well, if you really want to know, - "And I knew Him not; but He that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, "Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on Him, the same is He which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost". - John 1:33 JKV
Jesus lived in the power of the Holy Spirit
The miracles he performeds he acknowledged were by the power of the Holy Spirit
He spoke the word of God because the Spirit was on him without limit
It is all plainly wirttwen in the Gospels

And no I am not mad (Please rethink your position....to tell if you are)
If anyone believes Jesus is the Son of God, God lives in him and he in God 1John4:15
There is no sacripture that says a person must believe Jesus is God Himself unto salvation, for even Trinitarian ministers admit there is no plain scripture that states Christ is God himself in the bible. You need to have a rethink (Which Jesus? Do you mean the lamb that was slain from before the foundations of the world?)
So why did those Apostles nopt plainly and clearly tell people Christ was God Himself and they must believe that unto salvation.(They plainly did) Bluff won't work I am afraid(You are only bluffing yourself)

'Those given eyes to read can see
That pretty much sums up the problem'
Jesus said
I praise you Lord of Heaven and earth for you have hidden these tjhings from the wise and learned and revealed them to little childrten
Yes Father for this was your good pleasure

Those with simple faith can read the plain word

Now this is eternall life(note what constitutes eternal life) that they may know you(the Father), the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sentJohn17:3)

The Father is greater than I John 14:28

The Father is greater than all John 10:29

Yet for us, there is but ONE GOD, THE Father, from whom all things came and for whom we life, and ONE LORD JESUS CHRIST, through whom all things came and through whom we live 1Cor8:6

No one has seen God at anytime(Keep reading......please keep reading, - - "except He who is sent down from the Father")
1jOHN4:15

No one has seen the Father excvept he who is from God, only he has seen the Father John6:46(Jesus)

So Jesus said no one has seen the Father, and John said, no onew has seen God. Could they be sopeaking of the same person? I think they are(Baaah, Ha, Ha!!)

Are you mad to refuse to accept such plain scripture in stead of contradicting it in favour of what does not plainly state Christ is God Himself? (Please read John 1:1; and stop showing yourself to be a soul who can't rightly divide the Word of God)
Those given eyes to read can see

Absolutely, and those blinded by the academic mind of man cannot

There is nothing 'academic' about it. You refuse the Words of Life.
See the meaning of the term 'elohim' in Genesis 1:26;3:22;11:7; Isa. 6:8;ect. - to see who the Father is speaking to.
"Come let us(plural pronoun), go down and there confuse...."-Gen.11:7
Get help, it is mostly academic for those who are blind.
To those who can read it is plain.
Please read.
Isaiah 9:6 (KJV)
[SUP]6" [/SUP]For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace."

Jesus is God, was God, and always will be God.
He is the Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end.
He was slain from before the foundations of the earth! - (Tell me how a creation can be slain before they were created?)

Well, if you really want to know, - "And Iknew Him not; but He that sent me to baptize with water, the same said untome, "Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining onHim, the same is He which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost". - John 1:33 JK
You think that provesthe Spirit descending on Christ was only symbolic? It was symbolic just forJohn’s benefit?

For the one whom God hassent speaks the words of God, for Godgives the Spirit without limit(the Spirit was von Christ in BODILYSHAPE/FORM) John 3:34
As soon as this eventtook place, Christ was tempted and then began his public ministry. I repeat,the bible states, Christ spoke the word of God because the Spirit was on himwithout limit, he lived in the power of the Spirit, was led by the Spirit.Christ acknowledged the miracles were by the power of the Spirit.
But of course, it wasjust coincidence wasn’t it that this all happened after Luke wrote that the Spiritdescended on Christ in BODILY SHAPE/FORM.

They plainly did) Bluff won't work I am afraid(You are only bluffing yourself)

Oh I am afraid you arebluffing and badly. A trinitarian minister on another website who had been aChristian for over 50 years freely admitted to me there is no plain verse ofscripture that states Christ is God Himself. Indeed, Elin herself has stressedthis many times on another thread.
You cannot give me oneverse of scripture from the entire bible that states Christ is the one true God,but you insist eternal life hinges on believing it. We are speaking here ofwhat to you is the core or the Christian faith and salvific belief, yet,neither Paul, James, John, Peter, or Christ plainly stated a person mustbelieve Christ is God Himself unto salvation. What did you say?
‘People with eyes canread’
What you really mean? Theintelligent can decipher what is not plainly written’
That is your Gospel isit? I’ll come back to this at the end

No one has seen God at anytime(Keep reading......please keep reading, - -"except He who is sent down from the Father")
1jOHN4:15
What is that supposed to prove? You have noscriptures do you, so you are trying to make them fit what you believe. Christsaid only the Father was the one true God(John17:3) I assume you believe helied.
(Pleaseread John 1:1; and stop showing yourself to be a soul who can't rightly dividethe Word of God

I have read it manytimes, and given my thoughts on it upon request in the trinity thread, you arewelcome to read through that thread. You people are amazing, do you believe thefollowing John wrote?

Now this is eternallife,(note what constitutes eternal life) that they may know you(the Father)the only true God and Jesus Christ whom you have sent)
The Father is greaterthan I
The Father is greaterthan all
No one has seen God, ATANYTIME
If anyone believes Jesusis the son of God, God lives in him and he in God
I write these things toyou who believe in THE NAME OF THE SON OF GOD, so that you may know that youhave eternal life

Of course you don’tbelieve it do you. You say a person must believe Christ is the Son of God PLUSGod Himself to inherit eternal life. So John got it wrong, as well as Christ,they both failed to plainly state the requirement of belief needed as to whoChrist was unto salvation. As in truth you must believe that, how can you haveany confidence in anything John wrote?

There is nothing 'academic' about it. You refuse the Words of Life.
See the meaning of the term 'elohim' in Genesis 1:26;3:22;11:7; Isa. 6:8;ect. -to see who the Father is speaking to.
"Come let us(plural pronoun), go down andthere confuse...."-Gen.11:7
Get help, it is mostly academic for those who are blind.
To those who can read it is plain.
Please read.
Isaiah 9:6 (KJV)
[SUP]6" [/SUP]For unto us a child is born, unto us a son isgiven: and thegovernment shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful,Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince ofPeace."

Jesus is God, was God, and always will be God.
He is the Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end.



I refuse the words oflife, are you mad? How many quotes do you want as to who a person must believeChrist to be to inherit eternal life?
How many have you got toprove what you say a person must believe to inherit eternal life? NONE!,absolutely none.
I could easily respondto Isaiash 9:6 but as it would be a waste of time, do I take it you believeChrist is the Father? You should be consistent here, if you do I take it youare a oneness pentecostal
Jesus is God, was God, and always will be God
Problem is, you have noverse in the entire bible that states Christ is the one true God, and hehimself said only the Father is. But for someone like you who is very well readand 'intelligent,' that isn’t hard to get round is it.
Peaceful believer verywell explained Alpha and Omega in the trinity thread, with the usage of the Greek(whichI am sure would interest you greatly). I would suggest you read it, she puts it‘intelligently’ you should appreciate that
Tell me how a creation can be slain before they were created?)
Simple really, in the mind of God.He knew from the beginning Christ would have to die for the sins of the world.
One more post to follow, I won’tbother asking you any questions, I will just give you some facts