Sovereignty of God and Moral Responsibility of Man

mark54 · Mar 20, 2013

So are you an ordained minister Rick?
If you are, do you stand in the pulpit and plainly tell people that if they believe Christ is the son of God but not the one true God Himself they are condemned with that belief and will go to hell if they keep that belief?

So are you an ordained minister, or are you just talking of your ministry?

As for the rest of what you have written, what does Christ Himself say on the subject?

Now this is eternal life(please note what constitutes eternal life) that they may know you(the Father) the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent
John17:3

So if Christ who spoke the word of God on this earth is correct, your extrapolations of scripture that lead you to make extra biblical demands unto salvation are wrong
Will you admit it? Or do you believe Christ lied when he walked this earth? Or do you just believe you know more than Christ?

mark54 · Mar 20, 2013

RickShafer said:

Arius believed in the divinity of Christ. Would yopu accept him as a Christian, or is divinity not the most important thing here
Tertullian believed the Father was greater than the son as he was the whole substance and Christ was a smaller, derivative of that substance, was he wrong?

The difference here is not as to the nature of Christ but his title and whether the Father is greater than he
People like you think you can theologise all of this into a neat package don't you? For you are wise and learned, you know much through your vast studying Why don't the qualified ministers in the churches do it Rick(or hardly asny seem to attempt it, none I have heard of)? How come you can do what they cannot, or do not
All you end up doing is contradicting the plain words of Christ when he walked this earth, and in effect tell people they stand condemned for standing on the plain words of Christ when he walked this earth
As Paul said:
The Lord knows the thoughts of the wise are futile
1Cor3:21

RickShafer · Mar 20, 2013

Mark54,
You are saying Jesus is a lesser diety.
You are making a terrible mistake.
Jesus proceeded from the Father.
Jesus ascended back to the Father.
Jesus and the Father are one. - (By that they are the same diety)
Anyone knows this.
Why is it that you must make such distinction?
Do you not know that God is One?
And that the Son came to earth to save?
Do you not know that God didn't find anyone to plead His case so He sent His representative (out of Himself)?
Why do you make these distinctions?
Do you not know that is very dangerous? To sublimate Jesus as a lesser?
Do you not understand that when you do so, you are separating the only way you have to salvation from the very God(the Father), you say you serve?

As for my ministry - that you judge, I minister through music and evangelism.
Street, church, evangelize. My ordination is through the lives God uses me to change.
The signs follow. But don't believe me, - the signs of a prophet follow the prophet, the signs of an evangelist follow the evangelist, the signs of a pastor follow the pastor.
And so on.
We will see(and judge) each others works in the end.

mark54 · Mar 20, 2013

RickShafer said:

You have to ignore everythnig I write don't you, but then again you ignore what Jesus stated too. So if you won't believe Jesus, who spoke the word of God on this earth, no wonder you don't believe me either

IE
The Father is the one true God
The Father is greater than I
The Father is greater than all

But lets see how sincere you really are

Would you publically state here and now that any minister who refuses to state plainly from the pulpit salvific belief and the consequences of getting it wrong, should not be a minister
IE
Any minister who refuses tp plainly state from the pulpit that if a person believes Jesus is the Son of God, but not the one true God Himself they cannot be saved with that belief, and are therefore condemned and will go to hell if they keep that belief. Will you say any minister who refuses to palinly state that from the pulpit should not be allowed to preach in a church

You see Rick, you and I both know that every minister is plainly obligated to preach clearly from the pulpit any salvific belief and the copnsequences of getting it wrong
Now let us see If you have Holy Spirit conviction on this, for if you do, you cannot compromise, deflect or fudge, when answering

Earlmayknowornot · Mar 20, 2013

Mark

are you saying that Jesus is not equal to God. I don't understand Your position. Yes He is totally Man ( for we do not what we shall be, but we shall be like Him). And He is 100% God ( He thought it not robbery to be equal with God). I love you brother, but what are you getting at?

RickShafer · Mar 20, 2013

Yes, I am saying that!
You don't seem to understand.
Jesus IS God incarnate.
No other.
There is no other way to the Father.
Let me put it as plainly as can be stated - "For there is no other name under heaven and earth wherein man(kind) can be saved". -

Acts 4:10-12King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]10 [/SUP]Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole.
[SUP]11 [/SUP]This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner.
[SUP]12 [/SUP]Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

BAMMM!!!! - (Thus more arguments follow from Mark54)

mark54 · Mar 20, 2013

Earlmayknowornot said:

Earl
I really don't want to discuss this with you. I don't criticise anyone who believes Jesus is the one true God, my beef is always the same, people who make extra biblical demands unto salvation. I will just this once answer you, but then hope we can leasve it at that. The plain words of scripture, are, and always will be my bottom line:
Jesus said:

The Father is the one true God
The Father is greater than I
The Father is greater than all

I believe that as written Earl, but I am not asking you to, I simply, put it up to answer your question

But there is a very importasnt point here Earl. You and I agree on the core and most important doctrine of all, the Gospel of Grace. I am sure you agree that only the Holy Spirit can convict a person and open their eyes to the truth of that Gospel. And He does that if a person has been accepted by God, and the Holy Spirit dwells in their life
The deciding factor as to whether a person is saved/is a Christian is whether the Holy Spirit dwells in them(Rom8:9)

For us to agrere on the Gospel either neither of us are saved, or we both are.

People who follow theologians and scholars and rely on the little grey cells to learn will never understand, but I know you do
This is not a salvific issue, but they will; never understand for their god is the human intellect and they are led by that, and not Spirit filled truth. For it is impossible for anyone led of the Holy Spirit to refuse to accept the requirement of belief Christ himself laid down as to who a person must believe him to be unto salvation. And Trinitarianism itself stands against them

For if a person led of the Holy Spirit could refuse to accept the requirement of belief Christ himself laid down unto salvation by adding to it, then the Spirit of God must contradict the word of God, God then contradicts God and the belief collapses. But those led of the natural mind of man will never acknowledge that

mark54 · Mar 20, 2013

RickShafer said:

You do realise that you have just in effect stated that nealy all the ministers in the Trinitarian churches should not be allowed in the pulpit. Though I commend you for your honesty as to your belief(others tend to just ignore the question) you are typical of some on the internet, you obviously believe you are prepared to teach/preach the true Gospel while nearly all of the ministers in the Trinitarian churches will not, so they shouldn't be in the pulpit. The internet sure does throw up some people who believe they are better able to preach than nearly all the ministers in the churches
As to the rest of your post, it is of no importance to me
You see, I can give you much plain scripture to prove my belief on this subject is correct. How much plainly written scripture can you give me to prove you are correct?
Absolutely none. It is all your theological extrapolations of scripture
But as you obviously believe you know better than Christ, Paul, John, nearly all the ministers in Trinitarian churches(who you have admitted shouldn't be ministers) and well over 90% of people who go to trinitarian churches, what would it matter what I said.

Earlmayknowornot · Mar 20, 2013

Mark. I hope I am misunderstanding this goes back to the trinity and the lamb that was slain before the foundation of the earth. In the beginning was the the word and the word was made flesh and dwelt among us. I don't know full detail of what you and rick are fussing about. But I must say Jesus is God.

Earlmayknowornot · Mar 20, 2013

What is a trinitarian church and where can I go to see there doctrine.

mark54 · Mar 20, 2013

Earlmayknowornot said:

I understand your position Earl, but cannot have more than one conversation at a time, and as thus fasr you have not stated va person must believe Christ is the one true God unto salvation, I have nothng that I would want to debate with you about this subject
God Bless

RickShafer · Mar 20, 2013

"The Father is greater than all"
So Mark54 is saying Jesus is a lesser diety.
Quite remarkable, seeing as the scripture plainly states Jesus came from the Father.
That the Holy Spirit was His Father, and that the Father is a spirit - so those who
worship Him can only do so in spirit and in truth.
And the apostle John clearly stated that the "Word was made flesh, and that everything that was made, was made by Him".
And Jesus telling Phillip that the works he saw Jesus do were the works of the Father.
Quite the penciled in conundrum for Mark54.
And though he questions me, ....since I'm "on the internet"; but why question the words of Christ or the apostle He loved(St. John). - - - Maybe you should check their ordinations also Mark54? Seeing as they might also not be quite 'up to snuff'.

PLEASE - - - - - READ THE BIBLE.

Earlmayknowornot · Mar 20, 2013

Okay sorry, my apology

mark54 · Mar 20, 2013

RickShafer said:

"The Father is greater than all"
So Mark54 is saying Jesus is a lesser diety.
QUOTE]

The Father is greater than I
The Father is greater than all
The Father is the one true God

The above are statements of Christ, all written in John's Gospel
If you have a problem with them, why come to me?
I didn't write the bible.

It's always rthe same on the internet isn't it. People who are wise in their own eyes think they can extrapolate scripture to the point of contradicting the plain words of Christ when he walked this earth

You do not even understand the basics of Christianity Rick

For you actually believe people will be condemned on the day of Judgement for standing on the plain words of Christ when he walked this earth

This is spiritual immaturity of the like I have never seen in the flesh
You have theologised yourself to absurdity

mark54 · Mar 20, 2013

RickShafer;956596[SIZE=4 said:

I have read the bible Rick. And you refuse to accept the requirments plainly written in it for a person to inhehrit eternal life, you add to it
And the only way you can do that is becasue you are led of your little grey calls

RickShafer · Mar 20, 2013

Baaaah,ha,ha!!!
I like that, "the little grey calls"
If this was a baseball game it would have been called. - (Did you mean 'little grey cells'?)

The jury is out.
Mark54 says Jesus isn't the only way to the Father.
I say He is.

Hear ye, hear ye:
All jurors cast your votes.

RickShafer · Mar 20, 2013

mark54 said:

Remember, that Jesus is not the only way to salvation is Mark54's claim.

(Mark, if this was a little league game it would have been called 30 of our exchanged posts back)

mark54 · Mar 20, 2013

RickShafer said:

So now come the lies and distortions as you have nowhere else to go. There is no way to the Father but by the Son

But lets recap as to what you actually believe

Nearly all the ministers in Trinitarian churches should not be in the pulpit as they fail to plaijly state from it what to you is salvific belief and the consequences of getting it wrong
We do not accept the requirement of belief Christ himself laid down as to who a person must believe him to be but add to it
If you stand on the plain words of Christ as to the requirement of belief as to who he is unto salvation when he walked this earth you wil go to hell

The core of the Christian faith upon which eternal life hinges is not plainly written anywhere in the bible
Well over 90% of members of Trinitarian churches do not understand the salvific belief required unto salvation

Need I go on? Why am I wasting my time talking to someone with such absurd beliefs as yours

I will destroy the wisdom of the wise;
the intelligence of the intelligent I will frustrate.’[SUP][c][/SUP] [SUP]20 [/SUP]Where is the wise person? Where is the teacher of the law? Where is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? [SUP]21 [/SUP]For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe. [SUP]22 [/SUP]Jews demand signs and Greeks look for wisdom, [SUP]23 [/SUP]but we preach Christ crucified: a stumbling-block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles, [SUP]24 [/SUP]but to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. [SUP]25 [/SUP]For the foolishness of God is wiser than human wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than human strength.
[SUP]26 [/SUP]Brothers and sisters, think of what you were when you were called. Not many of you were wise by human standards; not many were influential; not many were of noble birth. [SUP]27 [/SUP]But God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise; God chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong. [SUP]28 [/SUP]God chose the lowly things of this world and the despised things – and the things that are not – to nullify the things that are, [SUP]29 [/SUP]so that no one may boast before him. [SUP]30 [/SUP]It is because of him that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from God – that is, our righteousness, holiness and redemption. [SUP]31 [/SUP]Therefore, as it is written: ‘Let the one who boasts boast in the Lord.’[SUP][[/SUP][SUP]d[/SUP][SUP]]

[/SUP]Do not deceive yourselves. If any of you think you are wise by the standards of this age, you should become ‘fools’ so that you may become wise. [SUP]19 [/SUP]For the wisdom of this world is foolishness in God’s sight. As it is written: ‘He catches the wise in their craftiness’[SUP][[/SUP][SUP]a[/SUP][SUP]][/SUP]; [SUP]20 [/SUP]and again, ‘The Lord knows that the thoughts of the wise are futile

mark54 · Mar 20, 2013

RickShafer said:

You are showing your desperation now, you're losing it. Please produce the post where I said Jesus is not the only way to salvation/be saved/i9mherit eternal life

RickShafer · Mar 20, 2013

mark54 said:

Post #1191.
(As well as others)

Sovereignty of God and Moral Responsibility of Man

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