Sovereignty of God and Moral Responsibility of Man

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Elin

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- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Lk 22:22 - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

(Aim: To address the charges of injustice and odiousness raised by many against the sovereignty of God in the actions of men.)


I. Introduction:

We should probably begin with God's foreknowledge.

Please note that the multitude of Scriptures given as demonstrations in this presentation are not all concise statements in the particular Scripture, but can be seen in the context of the particular Scripture.

Ac 4:27-28 - Those who conspired "against God's holy servant, Jesus, did what God's purpose determined before to be done."

In looking at the Biblical meaning of foreknowledge in Ac 4:28, there are two things:
  • the meaning of "determine" in its statement that "God determines beforehand what is done."
    determine = to fix (to set or place definitely; establish) conclusively or authoritatively; to decide; to ordain
    God knows in advance what is going to happen because he has determined that it shall happen.
    And to what God determines, there is no altering.
  • the eternal principles stated in Ac 4:28
    1) It is God, not men, who determines what happens.
    2) What God determines, shall happen, because he has determined that it shall happen.
And then in looking at the nature of God:

Scripture does not present a God whose will or plans are
  • conditioned on or determined by (Ex 9:6; Ac 4:28),
  • thwarted by (2Chr 20:6; Job 9:12, 42:2; Is 14:27; Da 4:35),
  • or who sustains loss because of (Jn 6:37; Ac 13:48) the actions of men.
Rather, Scripture presents a God
  • who ordains or decrees everything (Lam 3:37), down to the last detail (Ps 50:11, 139:16, 147:4; Mt10:30),
  • whose plans cannot be thwarted by man (Job 5:12; Ps 33:10),
  • and who is loser to no man (Mt 5:26).
It is men, not Scripture, who present God as simply knowing in advance what men are going to do, and then basing his plans on their action.

The Scriptures present God as causing men to do what he wills them to do (Ge 20:6; Ex 3:21, 14:17, 23:27; Dt 2:25, 30; Jos 11:20; 1Sa 10:9; 2Sa 24:1; 1Kgs 22:23; 1Chr 5:26; Ezr 1:1, 5, 7:27;
Ne 2:12, 7:5; Pr 21:1; Eze 14:9; Da 1:9; Jn 6:37; Ac 2:23, 4:28, 13:48; 2Co 8:16; Rev 17:17).

The God presented in the Scriptures is sovereign.
Everything that happens is according to his secret and all-wise counsels
(Is 53:10; Da 11:36; Ac 2:23, 3:18, 4:28; 13:48)
determined in eternity past before the worlds were ever created (Mt 25:34; Eph 1:4; Rev 13:8, 17:8).

For Scripture's answer to man's objection to this, see Ro 9:19-21.

So Scripture's presentation of God's foreknowledge of what is going to happen is not a looking down the corridors of time and seeing in advance what men are going to do.
That notion is from the mind of man.

Rather, Scripture shows that God's foreknowledge of what is going to happen is based in his decree that it shall happen.
And that notion is from the mind of God.

to be con't.
 
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eternally-gratefull

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#2
You know what is awsome about God's soverignty? He takes his creations free will choices to obtain his plan.

1. He used the free will choice of satan to crucify Christ thinking he was stopping God from doing what he planned.
2. He used the free will choice of Judas to turn Christ in
3. He used the free will choice of the pharisees to try and condemn Christ.

Man can not fool God with thier choices. He uses them. He has proven this time and time again in history.
 
zone

zone

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wow............
 
E

Elin

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eternally-gratefull said:
You know what is awsome about God's soverignty? He takes his creations free will choices to obtain his plan.

1. He used the free will choice of satan to crucify Christ thinking he was stopping God from doing what he planned.
2. He used the free will choice of Judas to turn Christ in
3. He used the free will choice of the pharisees to try and condemn Christ.

Man can not fool God with thier choices. He uses them. He has proven this time and time again in history.
Click to expand...
Anyone choking on foreknowledge?
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
#5
#5
Elin said:
Anyone choking on foreknowledge?
Click to expand...
Anyone choking on a God who does not love his creation the way he claims he does. and a doctrine which says what Satan said (God is not a God of love) is correct?
 
A

Abiding

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#6
Elin it is not merely the invention of mans mind. God doesnt "look down the corridors of time"(that cliche is getting old)
God isnt in time. But for mans sake we are told things to know this.

Remember the former things, those of long ago; I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like me. I make known the end from the beginning, from ancient times, what is still to come. I say: My purpose will stand, and I will do all that I please. – Isaiah 46:9-10

God gave us that. And for sure He will do all He pleases. The question then is "What pleases Him"?
Thats where the philosophical extrapolation comes in.

For instance:

Prov 16:9The heart of man plans his way, but the LORD establishes his steps.
Proverbs 3:6 says “In all your waysacknowledge/submit to Him [the Lord], and He will make your paths straight.”

Romans 8:28 And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose.

So i totally agree "all" things were determined, predestined, foreknown, edicted, whatever launguage
you want. Curses and blessings, mercy, and many "ifs" and "if nots" are included.

There is no doubt that God will have all His good pleasure. The mystery, and what can be known of it
is in the bible and not to be logically presumed on to connect the dots.

IF His good pleasure was to offer man salvation with man giving assent to it than that purpose WILL stand
and noone will thwart it. IF God wanted mans assent to the gospel He would have said so. And He did.
No dots to connect.


 
E

Elin

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zone said:
wow............
Click to expand...
The problem with the topic is that it is grasped from an overall knowledge of Scripture, which is obtained only by reading it all, from front to back.

It is in the reading of it, as it piles line upon line, that the reality of God's sovereignty and its operation unfolds itself and can take hold of one.

Just looking at all the isolated verses presented does not form the mind in an unfolding of what is actually being revealed by them.

However, for those to whom the topic is not absolutely new, they may provide more illumination on the subject.

It will be objectionable to some, food for thought for some, answers to questions for some, confirmation for some, and a restatement for some of what they already understand.

And that is as it should be. For the seekers on the subject, it may clarify some things. And there may be more of God's good pleasure revealed than we realize.
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
#8
#8
Elin said:
The problem with the topic is that it is grasped from an overall knowledge of Scripture, which is obtained only by reading it all, from front to back.

It is in the reading of it, as it piles line upon line, that the reality of God's sovereignty and its operation unfolds itself and can take hold of one.

Just looking at all the isolated verses presented does not form the mind in an unfolding of what is actually being revealed by them.

However, for those to whom the topic is not absolutely new, they may provide more illumination on the subject.

It will be objectionable to some, food for thought for some, answers to questions for some, confirmation for some, and a restatement for some of what they already understand.

And that is as it should be. For the seekers on the subject, it may clarify some things. And that's a good thing.
Click to expand...

This I can agree,, we not only see Gods soverignty from the opening to the end, we see his plan layed out from begining to end,

Through his love, his mercy, his knowledge of future events, His using people who were sinners to do wonderous deeds for him..

God is an awesome God. His love and mercy is so great, no one can deny it. no matter how harden they become to the truth



 
A

Abiding

Guest
#9
#9
Rather than just be a poopee i should just post a thread
with an alternative view.

But i can respond now and say that what i think just read was this.

Take many verses out of their contexts and you can form a theology
that fits what you think it should say. But thats the same as the charismatics and faith movement has done.

Ill stay with the old herm context, context,context...then parallel pasages etc.
and if there is no answer, then its not my business to know. It is certainly not my responsibility
to answer critics, or connect dots. Deut29:29

Where it really gets bad is when i hear the testimonies of how a theology
fits with a persons personal experience and what they already knew from
their former bible studies. Well if i had a penny for every time a charismatic told me
that.:p

anyway try on of these...

Im for sure listening and reading with an open mind.
Im not against isolating verses, as long as they are not
gathered to make a point preconceived which is what
is called handling the word of God deceitfully
go look at how good skinski is at that.
 
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Abiding

Guest
#10
#10
Unless i missed it. For sure the Acts account is true. Gods Sovereign doing.
But how?
Facts are noone can thwart Him....etc etc who would argue with that?
If you are going to say its all a puppetshow well if that is what God wanted...who would argue with that?
But if your saying it is all a puppetshow because scripture proves it....id argue that thats not the case.
 
zone

zone

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Jun 13, 2010
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Elin said:
Anyone choking on foreknowledge?
Click to expand...
not me....i knew that corridors of time thingamajig didn't work.

super cool.

*processing*
 
zone

zone

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#12
Jun 13, 2010
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#12
Elin said:
The problem with the topic is that it is grasped from an overall knowledge of Scripture, which is obtained only by reading it all, from front to back.

It is in the reading of it, as it piles line upon line, that the reality of God's sovereignty and its operation unfolds itself and can take hold of one.

Just looking at all the isolated verses presented does not form the mind in an unfolding of what is actually being revealed by them.

However, for those to whom the topic is not absolutely new, they may provide more illumination on the subject.

It will be objectionable to some, food for thought for some, answers to questions for some, confirmation for some, and a restatement for some of what they already understand.

And that is as it should be. For the seekers on the subject, it may clarify some things. And there may be more of God's good pleasure revealed than we realize.
Click to expand...
no Elin, this fits more with what i see also.
i can't say i've checked all the references yet because i haven't.
and i won't get all dogmatic about it.
i'm a Lutheran.

but for the purpose of this discussion:
a simple question i had right off was, yes, we can point to all the things God has said to us in His Word.
but the hard reality is that some never even hear those things.

i know God says we're all responsible, and i know (for example) my extended family has picked up bits of proverbs here and there - who hasn't in Western society? they also know Elvis songs.

but they certainly have never even opened God's Word.
well...i can't say never, or all of them.
maybe some have read a Gideon's at a hotel or whatever.

but that's the extent of it.
and they die without doing so.

this alone is evidence to me of one thing - they never knew what the Bible said. and they say they don't want to.
never. so how can they know what God said about things in Proverbs?

that's just observable fact for me.
it doesn't haven't to make sense to anyone else. i simply know my extended family simply can not and will not hear.
they won't. not so far. and they are hardening in it.

that's what i know for sure.
yet my kids are being saved.

and it's had nothing to do with me - i'm my mother's daughter - yet she won't listen.
i am the mother to my daughter, and she will listen.

i don't understand it.
but i see it.
 
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zone

zone

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Jun 13, 2010
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anyways, i'm just going to use the study, and i thank you for it.
i'm in no position to debate it with you Elin, nor do i care to:)
it does confirm some things for me, and other things i don't know about.
likely there are things when i get into it i will object to.

like i said...and i'll say it yet again.
i am so happy i have my denom.
for reason already stated.

thanks Elin.
with all your hard work, in all these threads, i've got so material to consider.
and i do intend to share with my pastor.
in the end, he's been really able to answer any questions i have, and to place them in a spot where i can continue to wrestle with them, or just rest on them.

over time i'm liking the resting on things alot:)

your work is very much appreciated Elin by me, including the careful formatting which makes it easier to "see".
love you
Kath

Our God is A Mighty God,
this i know.
 
crossnote

crossnote

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Nov 24, 2012
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#14
''The Scriptures present God as causing men to do what he wills them to do ''

It will be interesting to see how God judges one guilty if the above is absolute.
 
E

Elin

Banned
#15
Jan 19, 2013
11,909
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#15
Abiding said:
Rather than just be a poopee i should just post a thread
with an alternative view.

But i can respond now and say that what i think just read was this.

Take many verses out of their contexts and you can form a theology
that fits what you think it should say. But thats the same as the charismatics and faith movement has done.

Ill stay with the old herm context, context,context...then parallel pasages etc.
and if there is no answer, then its not my business to know. It is certainly not my responsibility
to answer critics, or connect dots. Deut29:29

Where it really gets bad is when i hear the testimonies of how a theology
fits with a persons personal experience and what they already knew from
their former bible studies. Well if i had a penny for every time a charismatic told me
that.:p

anyway try on of these...

Im for sure listening and reading with an open mind.
Im not against isolating verses, as long as they are not
gathered to make a point preconceived which is what
is called handling the word of God deceitfully
go look at how good skinski is at that.
Click to expand...
Don't give up yet, guys.

This is about addressing the charges of injustice and odiousness raised by man against the sovereignty of God in the actions of men.
 
A

Abiding

Guest
#16
#16
Jesus made it completely clear who will, and who will not,
find the understanding, and get saved.
And it makes more sense to both, justice, and a persons sensitivities.
I dont need a theological theory. Especially one thats already
shut out the possibility of Jesus words being clear and enough.
As If the OldTestament hadnt already said it.
 
zone

zone

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Jun 13, 2010
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#17
crossnote said:
''The Scriptures present God as causing men to do what he wills them to do ''

It will be interesting to see how God judges one guilty if the above is absolute.
Click to expand...
yes, this i need to be able to see.
without question.



crossnote, grab the chips:)

Elin said:
Don't give up yet, guys.

This is about addressing the charges of injustice and odiousness raised by man against the sovereignty of God in the actions of men.
Click to expand...
i don't think you'd be out on a limb unless you had something to offer Elin.
i'm listenin'...and it's my responsiblity to decide. and to see if these things are so.

Diggs, it's starting!
 
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Elin

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Jan 19, 2013
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#18
crossnote said:
''The Scriptures present God as causing men to do what he wills them to do ''

It will be interesting to see how God judges one guilty if the above is absolute.
Click to expand...
Well, I guess the first thing we have to do is decide if that is what the Scriptures present.

If it is, then it is part of what must be reckoned with, and not trimmed to fit the jib of our theology.
 
zone

zone

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#19
Jun 13, 2010
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#19
Elin said:
Well, I guess the first thing we have to do is decide if that is what the Scriptures present.

If it is, then it is part of what must be reckoned with, and not trimmed to fit the jib of our theology.
Click to expand...
at the very least, i'm going to understand this theology better.
and that can only be helpful for me. it is discussed so much i wanna know about it.

*digs in pocket for jujubes*
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
#20
#20
Elin said:
Well, I guess the first thing we have to do is decide if that is what the Scriptures present.

If it is, then it is part of what must be reckoned with, and not trimmed to fit the jib of our theology.
Click to expand...
He who does not believe is condemned already. So if God willed us to sin, which condemns us, Then does nto will us to believe. It is Gods fault anyone would go to hell. Not the persons.

Your doctrine makes God out to be the guilty one, not holding men accounatable for their free will actions.
 
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