Amen, same here!!! It is a beautiful thing, glory to God in the highest..............
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Amen, same here!!! It is a beautiful thing, glory to God in the highest..............
okay. so you're liking all that.
"demonology" is actually witchcraft you know.
better be careful what you ask for and play with.
i'll post this for anyone who is actually feeling conviction from the Holy Spirit on this matter and wants to be delivered from Deliverance ministries.
The lie that is the Christian deliverance ministry
Within the Charismatic church are a broad variety of beliefs that collectively are called the deliverance ministry. These doctrines at their core teach that born again evangelical Christians can have demons ( evil unclean spirits) dwell within their physical bodies.
Up until a few years ago I myself adhered to this doctrine until by the mercy of God, my eyes were opened unto the scriptures. The practice of exorcisms upon bible believing Christians are not uncommon in most Charismatic church assemblies. Actually many who practice this ‘ministry, tend to think that demonic entities within the bodies of Christian believers are quite common. Those who adhere to this practice believe that it is their responsibility to evict or cast out any demons that dwell in a Christian’s body. The mystery in this is that it all takes place is after they have become followers of Jesus and have within them the abiding presence of the Holy Spirit.
The teaching for this is based upon their understanding of man as a tricotomy. That being that man is made up of soul , body and spirit. They teach that demons would dwell within both the soul and the body part of man and that the spirit is the part that is seated with Christ in heavenly realms, far from any contact with demonic entities. They believe that they are working out their salvation with fear and trembling by driving out the demonic intruders from their redeemed bodies and souls just as Joshua drove out the Canaanites from the Promised Land.
Philippians 2:12 Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling,
The trouble with this doctrine is that it is not taught anywhere in scripture. As with all false doctrines there are negative consequences that affect many other areas of belief and lifestyle once embraced. There is not one biblical example anywhere of a born again Christian needing an exorcism to be set free from an evil spirit. Everyone who had demons driven out of them in the bible by Jesus or the disciples were either heathens or unsaved Jews. In many cases it was the exorcism of the demons that enabled the person to become a follower of Jesus. They followed Christ because he had set them free from evil spirits. The Gaderine demoniac being a prime example.. One might also include Mary Magdalene as another who had seven devils driven out of her. Jesus said those have been forgiven much love much and Mary Magdalene is portrayed in the scripture as one who loved the Lord very deeply. Mary is an important person in the argument of the charismatic’s for they use her as an example of one who was a Christian and had seven devils dwell within her and had them evicted by the Lord.
To counter this argument, I would say that the bible does not state when the devils were driven out of her so the Charismatic argument is not a sure one. Also this deliverance was before the death and resurrection of Christ for it took place sometime during the Lord’s earthly ministry. It was therefore before the Holy Ghost indwelled believers as a seal of their salvation. This is really important for the primary scriptural argument I have against the possibility of Christians having demons dwell within them is the scripture: 1st. John 4:4 Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.
If both the Holy Ghost and demons indwelled our earthly bodies then the apostle John would have to be more specific as to whom he was making reference to in the above quote. Not only this, but Paul the apostle tells us in 2nd Corinthians 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
If the Charismatic doctrine of Christians retaining demonic entities from before their conversion to Christ is accurate then this statement from the apostle Paul is incorrect. ‘Not everything has become new at all, sure you are saved but the kicker is that Christ via the sovereignty of God decided to leave demons within your body to teach you principles in spiritual warfare and victory over dark powers.’ I hope you can see how ridiculous this argument is as well as it being an insult to the work of the Lord Jesus upon the cross as it would mean that he only partially redeemed us.
The fruit of this doctrine is that charismatic’s become Christian narcissists, obsessing over personal deliverance and freedom from both ancestral (generational) curses as well as curses acquired from personal sin. The scripture says that Christ became a curse for us… Galatians 3:13-14 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree: 14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.
The beauty of this is that we no longer need to be subject to the law from which all the curses come forth. He whom the son sets free is free indeed!
The negative fruit from the Charismatic deliverance ministry is that the redemptive work of Jesus is lessened as men after conversion now need to persue’ spiritual keys’ to achieve liberty in Christ. This leads to a form of gnostic spiritual insight from deliverance gurus who suggest you may have demons and curses from the sins of your forefathers, your own sin, the iniquities of your culture and almost every evil practice that you once walked in before and after you became a Christian. Spiritual paranoria can only be the result.
Getting back to my thoughts, charismatic’s eventually start blaming their own sinful habits on demons and not really owning them and repenting. They therefore remain stuck in bondage and blame the devil. This downward spiral of self centered obsessive behaviour eventually brings an honest victim to the place of wondering if Christ actually achieved anything at all when he died for them upon the cross, such is the mountain of Gnostic ritual and secret keys necessary to bring the simplest believer in Christ to any degree of deliverance.
The lie that is the Christian deliverance ministry | Wolves Bane < click MORE
"The real potential for problems in the Christian life is blaming things on the demonic and neglecting normal Christian growth and maturity. It is this kind of lack of maturity in the lives of many believers, because they are looking for the quick fix of a Neil Anderson deliverance, that will prove the greater damage. I am concerned that believers wake up to the false ways of Dr. Anderson."
Larry Thomas, Biblical Perspectives Vol.V, no.3 1992
"Believers cannot be possessed by demons…The scripture is clear on this matter. …Christ's work was sufficient. There is no further deliverance that must take place. If there were, salvation in Christ would be incomplete. If the church would stop and think through its theology of scripture we would realize that something is drastically wrong with what is being promoted by those who teach that believers can be demonized."
Gil Rugh Demonization and the believer- an unbiblical teaching exposed, pg.26 1994
Larry Thomas, Biblical Perspectives Vol.V, no.3 1992
"Believers cannot be possessed by demons…The scripture is clear on this matter. …Christ's work was sufficient. There is no further deliverance that must take place. If there were, salvation in Christ would be incomplete. If the church would stop and think through its theology of scripture we would realize that something is drastically wrong with what is being promoted by those who teach that believers can be demonized."
Gil Rugh Demonization and the believer- an unbiblical teaching exposed, pg.26 1994
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danschance
Guest
Zone, be carful how you wikigoogle because that is the worst hack job I have ever seen on deliverance to the point it is comical.
Oh this is golden. Now he lumps two things together(charismatic doctrine and deliverance of a demon from a Christian) and calls them both evil. What a hack job! ..and no references again. Tisk Tisk
Oh this guy is good. This is so pejorative. Now I wonder if he is a politician! He really has the crowd going now!
Here is his conclusion. Isn't it golden! LOL I like how he doesn't hold back and let's us really know how he feels. Unfortunately it's all just his hate filled diatribe and completely devoid of anything thought provoking. He sets up his straw men, douses them with kerosene and torches them with his flame thrower. Then dances in victory. Maybe this guy should be president!
Than you Zone. I needed a good laugh!
..and you asked for documentation of demons names, remember?
Notice how he fails to list those scriptures? That is because there is no scripture that states a Christian can or cannot be indwelt by a demon. The scriptures people pick and choose are in context talking about subjects not related to the indwelling of a demon.
This guy is a nutter. I've never heard of anything so bizarre as to equate deliverance with working out one's salvation. Notice how he does quote any one in deliverance saying thing nonsense. He seems to be forget that Jesus cast out demons everywhere He went and His disciples too. This is utter nonsense.
Now he is torching his own straw men. LOL I am thinking he is a full time plumber and writes this stuff as a hobby! I've never seen more dizzying logic in my life.
Ok, here he startes making sense. Maybe he was a bit more sober, but again it is just a straw man argue ment as the bible any Jew who followed Jesus after a demon was cast, this could claim "now they are saved".
Oh this is golden. Now he lumps two things together(charismatic doctrine and deliverance of a demon from a Christian) and calls them both evil. What a hack job! ..and no references again. Tisk Tisk
Oh this guy is good. This is so pejorative. Now I wonder if he is a politician! He really has the crowd going now!
Here is his conclusion. Isn't it golden! LOL I like how he doesn't hold back and let's us really know how he feels. Unfortunately it's all just his hate filled diatribe and completely devoid of anything thought provoking. He sets up his straw men, douses them with kerosene and torches them with his flame thrower. Then dances in victory. Maybe this guy should be president!
Than you Zone. I needed a good laugh!
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danschance
Guest
Zone, you can post thousands of people's opinions that agree with you. I could easily do the same. I just fail to see how it proves anything.
LOL. from scriptures....i could always hope right?
but, demonbusters.com has their list...oh ya.
demon blood pressure.
demon diaper rash.
i know that site.
it's hilarious.
oh i know your deliverance bango jango.
i'll find your crew using that term.
that's what i'm here for. don't worry.
i'll string the whole sad mess out here.
never call sin sin...blame on da debil.
demon of migraine.
demon of toothache.
demon of obesity.
the generational curse of ear wax
pffft...he's straight-up.
it's the demonbusters that have the crowd going.
entertaining for me....and totally occult strange fire for you.
you guys cause more damage than just about anything.
Lord! Lord! didn't we?
the demon of hate i reckon.
the demon of inability to provoke thought.
those two together must have a boss demon.
what would it's name be?
you guys must be busy!
and so important!
no clue how this dualistic heretical worldview disgraces the Cross of Christ.
oh well.....on we go
not posting for you.
you're still playing demonbuster.
maybe the Lord will grant you repentance for all your playing with familiar spirits (if they are there).
and for hurting christians who have ordinary struggles with the flesh, and may even have fallen into bondage to SIN.
by telling them they are possessed and are surrounded by demons and Jesus maybe can't do much.
BUT YOU CAN.
who ya gonna call?
DEMONBUSTERS!
ugh.
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danschance
Guest
Wow Zone, you assume alot!
I do not have a ministry. I am not attached to a ministry, directly or indirectly. I do not solicit or search for people to help. I do not have a website. I do know how to cast demons out and I have done so, but I am extremely reticent to do so unless under the guidance of the Holy Spirit.
Of the people I have helped, one is free of bipolar disorder, one is in college to become a pastor, One had dozens of personalities merge and free of MPD/DID, several accepted Jesus as their Lord and Savior, one suicide prevented and not one has ever told me I did anything wrong or harmful. You are the only the one who has ever suggested that I did any sort of harm. I take great offense at your groundless accusations. You do not know me beyond my posts. You don't know how tall I am or what color my eyes are but you have the gall to assume I am playing games with familiar spirits and harming people.
Wow, I can't believe you would sink so low to accuse me of religious/spiritual abuse and yet you know nothing of me. All I can say to you is this, I forgive you for assassinating my character in a public forum.
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Therapon
Guest
Brother, which of the prophets have they not stoned?
I finally had to ignore ozone. She just seeks to destroy anyone who disagree with her anti Semitism or her views on anything else for that matter. So for the peace of the Spirit within you, it might be wise if you did the same. Despite her unending legalistic posts, Salvation isn't in having the right doctrine, it’s in having a humble and contrite heart before the Lord.
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danschance
Guest
Sounds like wisdom to me. I hate to ignore people but sometimes it is the best thing.
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PeteWaldo
Guest
She can post lots more because folks of the world are on her side.
Indeed folks are pretty easy to categorize on both sides.
In another thread I pointed out that all that the anti-scriptural term "Palestinian" (that was coined by a satanically led 2nd century Roman ruler) accomplishes is to obscure the true identities of the residents of Israel.
http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/61358-israel-palestine.html
No surprise then Israeli residents break down as follows:
The majority of those in the following Israeli groups are pro-Zionism:
Israeli Christians
Israeli non-Muslim and secular Arabs
Israeli Messianic Jews
Israeli Torah Jews
Israeli secular Jews
The majority of those in the following Israeli group are anti-Zionism:
Israeli Muslims
Now let's take a look at how non-Israeli groups composed of folks who weren't born in Israel, and/or don't have to or want to live in Israel, break down.
Among non-Israeli groups that proclaim themselves to be Christian, the majority of those in the following groups are pro-Zionism:
Tens of millions of denominational and non-denominational Evangelical Christians, including a near unanimity of futurists
The Christadelphian cult
Among non-Israeli groups that proclaim themselves to be Christian, the majority of those in the following groups are anti-Zionism:
Jeremiah Wright and his flock (even endorsing the Iran backed "March on Jerusalem")
Arnold Murray and his Serpent Seed cult
David Duke and the KKK
Ted Pike (who seems to have suffered the consequences) and his followers
The "Christian Identity" movement
The liberal left wing of the church some of which also ordain women and homosexuals (these are a little difficult to nail down because they are as reluctant to admit to anti-Zionism, as some folks in this forum were, to answer to only request I made in the last paragraph in the OP of this thread)
Perhaps those groups that discussed divestment of Israeli assets could give us a clue:
Disinvestment from Israel - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Presbyterian Church (USA)
World Council of Churches
United Church of Christ
United Methodist Church
With the ECUSA suggesting "“a negotiated two-state solution” and “positive investment” rather than divestment from Israel." (in other words likely financing Islamic terrorism, since that is the so-called "Palestinian's" largest (and perhaps nearly only?) industry in which one can invest).
Among non-Israeli groups, that are not Christian, the majority of whose members are pro-Zionism:
These groups might be hard to categorize. For example I have chatted with at least one English atheist that understands what is going on, from having investigated Islam after Muslims took over his neighborhood, who does not want his heirs to be subjugated to prostrating themselves toward the Quraish pagan's black stone idol in Mecca and praying in the vain repetitions of the heathen five times a day.
We can perhaps suffice it to say that any group in favor of the continuation of freedom, liberty and right to self-determination and self-rule provided by the democracy of the Israeli Jewish State, to the benefit of Israeli Jews, Christians, non-Muslim Arabs and Muslims (where Muslims enjoy more freedom than they do in any Muslim controlled country on earth), would fit here.
Among non-Israeli groups, that are not Christian, the majority of whose members are anti-Zionism:
A near unanimity of Muslim antichrists around the world
Nazis
Louis Farrakan and the Nation of Islam
Communist Soviets
George Soros and his Center for American Progress
The U.N.
White supremacists
Skinheads
Anti-semites of all stripes
Student Nonviolent Coordinating Committee
Some small Jewish cults
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PeteWaldo
Guest
So many people ignore her now, if you notice she is increasingly quoting her own posts, and engaging in conversation with herself. I said goodbye when I saw how casually she falsely accuses and falsely characterizes (let alone that besides her unchristian predatory behavior, she also generally quotes something, and then rather than reply to the content instead goes on to harangue on in accusation against persons). I don't view the following as a suggestion or a recommendation, but an instruction:
2 Timothy 3:1 This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come. 2 For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, 3 Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good, 4 Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God; 5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.
When someone casually engages in the described behavior I turn away.
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no dear.
you turn away because you can not address your own problematic and heretical doctrines.
that's okay.
i'm not much interested in your personally so don't flatter yourself.
just keeping an eye on the judaizers.
OH MY GOD
did Abe Foxman put together your post?
what garbage.
just goes to show what nutjobs can cobble together in spite of real information.
the WHOLE WORLD knows Israel is the problem.
the world calls for Israel to held accountable, a certain western nation trashes world opinion. around and around we go.
America is her enabler.
Israel and the American Neocons did 9-11.
you can pretend they didn't til the cows come home.
everybody else in the world knows they did.
founded on terrorism, survives through terror.
supported by terrorist elements in the US shadow govt.
and rabid xtian-zionist antichristians.
Israel attacks CHRISTIAN america and xtain zionist slobber all over themselves to make it OK.
they see MOOSLIMS on tv and say NUKE EM.
suckered over and over and over....until it's a sick joke.
a world-wide WAR ON TERROR started by your pals.
course, that makes me a skinhead for saying so.
so boring.
so old.
put lipstick on a pig its still a pig, Pete.
i have no idea who your god is.....the God of Scripture NEVER allowed HIS people to dwell in the Land polluted by innocent blood and wallowing in idolatry and rebellion: CHRIST-HATERS
and you call REAL CHRISTIANS nazis...it works on most.
they cower away.
not me though Pete
so are we gonna have a talk about your heresies?
your treason?
or...no?
*cough cough*
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Abiding
Guest
Did you call someone a hack "AND" make reference to Demon Buster.com ? then say someone is assassinating
your character? Wow! You dont need anyone helping you on that.
Are you boys having a lick your wounds fest?
apparently few.
according to Jesus they killed the OT prophets that were sent to them, and He said He would even send more - and "some of whom you will kill and crucify, and some you will flog in your synagogues and persecute from town to town"
was Jesus right?
Matthew 23
29“Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you build the tombs of the prophets and decorate the monuments of the righteous, 30saying, ‘If we had lived in the days of our fathers, we would not have taken part with them in shedding the blood of the prophets.’ 31Thus you witness against yourselves that you are sons of those who murdered the prophets. 32Fill up, then, the measure of your fathers. 33You serpents, you brood of vipers, how are you to escape being sentenced to hell? 34Therefore I send you prophets and wise men and scribes, some of whom you will kill and crucify, and some you will flog in your synagogues and persecute from town to town, 35so that on you may come all the righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of innocent Abel to the blood of Zechariah the son of Barachiah,f whom you murdered between the sanctuary and the altar. 36Truly, I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation.
what did Stephen say?
Acts 7
51“You stiff-necked people, uncircumcised in heart and ears, you always resist the Holy Spirit. As your fathers did, so do you. 52Which of the prophets did your fathers not persecute? And they killed those who announced beforehand the coming of the Righteous One, whom you have now betrayed and murdered, 53 you who received the law as delivered by angels and did not keep it.
The Stoning of Stephen
54Now when they heard these things they were enraged, and they ground their teeth at him. 55But he, full of the Holy Spirit, gazed into heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God. 56And he said, “Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God.” 57But they cried out with a loud voice and stopped their ears and rushed togetherb at him. 58Then they cast him out of the city and stoned him. And the witnesses laid down their garments at the feet of a young man named Saul.
so who stoned the prophets?
“Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites!
The sages of the Talmud see a direct link between themselves and the Pharisees, and historians generally consider Pharisaic Judaism to be the progenitor of Rabbinic Judaism, that is normative, mainstream Judaism after the destruction of the Second Temple. All mainstream forms of Judaism today consider themselves heirs of Rabbinic Judaism and, ultimately, the Pharisees.
and what is your new soteriology?
that The Pharisees are saved if they cry on occassion?
acknowledging Jesus of Nazareth isn't important..in fact the Pharisees and those who follow them are saved by NOT acknowledging Jesus of Nazareth. isn't that your new soteriology?
what did Jesus say?
You serpents, you brood of vipers, how are you to escape being sentenced to hell?
do you agree with Jesus?
i'm not the antisemite.
you are.
i love arabs and the semitic peoples.
i hope they receive the Gospel.
as for the Talmudic eastern european jews you don't love enough to tell the truth to, nor to be honest with the Church about....that makes you anti-jew....not to mention antichristian.
you deny the whole NT. Jesus Himself. you deny Him before men.
John 5:23
that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. Whoever does not honor the Son does not honor the Father, who sent him.
John 8:19
Then they asked him, "Where is your father?" "You do not know me or my Father," Jesus replied. "If you knew me, you would know my Father also."
John 16:3
They will do such things because they have not known the Father or me.
John 17:3
Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.
1 John 4:2
This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God,
1 John 4:15
If anyone acknowledges that Jesus is the Son of God, God lives in them and they in God.
1 John 5:1
Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and everyone who loves the father loves his child as well.
1 John 5:20
We know also that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding, so that we may know him who is true. And we are in him who is true by being in his Son Jesus Christ. He is the true God and eternal life.
2 John 1:9
Anyone who runs ahead and does not continue in the teaching of Christ does not have God; whoever continues in the teaching has both the Father and the Son.
you teach the opposite of everything the scriptures teach.
that's why you pretend you have me on ignore.
if i had a nickel for everytime i got called an ANTISEMITIC NAZI SKINHEAD for insisting unbelieving jews are not saved and need the Gospel, why....i'd be a gazillionaire
hey:
To Those Ashamed of The Gospel:
Please drop a nickel in my bank everytime you ring the Pavlovian Bell.
Thank You,
Zone
John 3:18
Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.
John 5:24
Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.
Romans 1:16
16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
(technically that could earn me 15 cents. but you could just say it once and a nickel will be fine...thx)
hey:
To Those Ashamed of The Gospel:
Please drop a nickel in my bank everytime you ring the Pavlovian Bell.
Thank You,
Zone
John 3:18
Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.
John 5:24
Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.
Romans 1:16
16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
(technically that could earn me 15 cents. but you could just say it once and a nickel will be fine...thx)
J
jimmydiggs
Guest
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PeteWaldo
Guest
Good one Jimmy!
And for me, a nickel every time I witnessed a self-proclaimed Christian declaring God's judgments on persons, in this forum alone!
Rom 11:33 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable [are] his judgments, and his ways past finding out!
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danschance
Guest
Did you call someone a hack "AND" make reference to Demon Buster.com ? then say someone is assassinating
your character? Wow! You dont need anyone helping you on that.
Are you boys having a lick your wounds fest?
No. I called him a "nutter" and his article "a hack job" and stand behind it. You might want to read what I posted again and see that his article borderlines on slander and devoid of any references. I don't mind being quoted but who likes being misquoted?