Clairity on concepts: Adultery

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JGPS

Banned
Jan 11, 2013
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#1
Building from here.

The only functional definition of scriptural adultery is a man taking another mans woman. A married woman with a man that is not her husband. A concordance will give you something along the lines of 'a woman that breaketh wedlock' as its definition of adultery in scripture.

Intercourse between a married man and an unmarried woman generally falls in the category of fornication, and not adultery. Similarly two unmarried individuals cannot commit adultery, but can only fornicate.

The modern sense of adultery which goes both ways doesn't function in scripture because throughout scripture men are allowed more than one wife. Under the modern definition a great deal of normal marriage in scripture would be considered adultery.

Understanding the biblical meaning of adultery is important for numerous reasons, but there are a few I'd like to point out. First the nature of the crime of adultery is somewhat different than fornication. Fornication is a crime in the present that hurts those who do it. Adultery is a crime against the future. The English archaic sense of adultery explains this well. To adulterate something is to take something of value and purity and debase or devalue it by mixing in inferior materials or elements. It's adding lead to gold or mixing olive oil with cheap canola oil. It affects the end product. Adultery leaves questions of parentage and purity that can do lasting damaged not only to the relationships of those involved but also the next generation of relationships.

Secondly understanding what adultery means changes ones view of Matt 5:28 from being something novel and neigh unreasonable, especially to the young, to something quite tolerable that scripture has always said.

Obviously one cannot commit adultery with an unmarried woman.

Of course there are more implications than that, but those are a few things that come to mind.
 
Mar 21, 2013
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#2
I would have assumed that god meant any sexual activity with anyone else other than your husband/wife would be classed as adultery.

Maybe what you speak of was made of a convenient rule bending to favour the men at that time who had little
Regard for women
 

JGPS

Banned
Jan 11, 2013
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#3
would have assumed that god meant any sexual activity with anyone else other than your husband/wife would be classed as adultery.
This is why its better not to make assumptions when dealing with scripture. As I pointed out your assumption clashes violently with scripture.

What you're talking about is fornication, not adultery. It's a different concept.

Maybe what you speak of was made of a convenient rule bending to favour the men at that time who had little
Regard for women
They had plenty of regard for women. Isreal was special in that it had property rights and protections for women, women leaders, and generally valued them quite highly, especially for the ancient world.

What I'm talking about is consistent use of a term in scripture and its meaning.
 

WordGaurdian

Senior Member
May 1, 2011
473
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#4
ahhuh...


Mat 5:28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.


enough said.
 

JGPS

Banned
Jan 11, 2013
629
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#5
ahhuh...


Mat 5:28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.


enough said.
That barely addresses this topic at all. I even referenced that verse in my post and made a point concerning it. F for effort?
 
Mar 21, 2013
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#6
This is why its better not to make assumptions when dealing with scripture. As I pointed out your assumption clashes violently with scripture.

What you're talking about is fornication, not adultery. It's a different concept.



They had plenty of regard for women. Isreal was special in that it had property rights and protections for women, women leaders, and generally valued them quite highly, especially for the ancient world.

What I'm talking about is consistent use of a term in scripture and its meaning.
Well if you want to take things as literal as that then the seventh day was a saturday
 

JGPS

Banned
Jan 11, 2013
629
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#7
Well if you want to take things as literal as that then the seventh day was a saturday
Certainly it was. Sunday is a celebration of the resurrection on the first day. That information doesn't doesn't appear to have anything whatsoever to do with this thread. Are you just being random?

But if by 'literal' you mean 'taking things for what they actually meant in scripture' then yes, I do want to be as literal as that...
 
Mar 21, 2013
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#8
Yea that's a fair comment my friend. I'm not a believer, but I do try and see things from a Christian perspective, obviously I'm way off the mark :)
 

JGPS

Banned
Jan 11, 2013
629
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#9
Ah, your suppositions will be different then. The thread is ultimately about herminutics so its not a really useful thread for an unbeliever.

If you're interested in discussing anything related I'm quite happy too though.

At any rate you're quite right that any sexual relations with anyone other than your spouse is forbidden for Christians. It's just not adultery, its fornication.
 
A

Ariel82

Guest
#10
and that statement is why I won't even bother to waste my time to read the rest.

You have pride issues.

obviously adultery means more than having sex with someone else's wife.......

Jeremiah 3:8Then I saw that for all the causes for which backsliding Israel had committed adultery, I had put her away and given her a certificate of divorce; yet her treacherous sister Judah did not fear, but went and played the harlot also.

Jeremiah 3:9So it came to pass, through her casual harlotry, that she defiled the land and committed adultery with stones and trees.



Ezekiel 23:37For they have committed adultery, and blood is on their hands. They have committed adultery with their idols, and even sacrificed their sons whom they bore to Me, passing them through the fire, to devour them.


Matthew 5:28But I say to you that whoever looks at a woman to lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart.

why does it matter if you label the act fornication or adultery? they are both sins.
 

JGPS

Banned
Jan 11, 2013
629
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#11
and that statement is why I won't even bother to waste my time to read the rest.

You have pride issues.
I have issues with being practical and to the point. How you can't see those last two lines as being hilariously ironic when being placed next to each other (as you so kindly did) is beyond me.

Wordgaurdian didn't contribute anything to the thread. As I said, I already referenced Matt 5:28 in my original post, if you wanted to discuss it add something rather than post the verse alone...

obviously adultery means more than having sex with someone else's wife.......

Jeremiah 3:8Then I saw that for all the causes for which backsliding Israel had committed adultery, I had put her away and given her a certificate of divorce; yet her treacherous sister Judah did not fear, but went and played the harlot also.

Jeremiah 3:9So it came to pass, through her casual harlotry, that she defiled the land and committed adultery with stones and trees.



Ezekiel 23:37For they have committed adultery, and blood is on their hands. They have committed adultery with their idols, and even sacrificed their sons whom they bore to Me, passing them through the fire, to devour them.

Jerimiah portrays Israel and Judah metaphorically as the wives of YHWH. Within the metaphor the adultery is literal, they are sisters that play the harlot and break their covenant with YHWH. This is exactly what I said the word means. Check the context before posting.

Ezekiel is the same type of metaphor but with Samaria and Jerusalem. Start from the beginning of the chapter and you'll see the reference.

Context Context Context right? Cut and run is a big part of why people have so many issues with scripture.




Matthew 5:28But I say to you that whoever looks at a woman to lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart.
Yes. This is one verse where understanding the difference between adultery and fornication is very important.

It however does nothing to define adultery, it assumes you know what it is before hand.
why does it matter if you label the act fornication or adultery? they are both sins.
I gave two reasons. Scripture cares to use different terms for different sins, that in and of itself should be enough.
 

Dotann

Senior Member
Jan 28, 2012
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#12
Wrong is wrong! And sin is SIN! No matter what you want to call it. Its still not acceptable in Gods eyes and it is not pleasing for us as Christians to do regardless of which one it was. its not like there are some sins that are better to do than others and therefore we are "allowed" to choose to perform these acts and think God is such a merciful god that He is going to play the mercy card on on when we know how to choose right from wrong yet do these things anyway. In some cases, plan and pay no attention to who we hurt in the process either and this is NOT something that the Holy Spirit who if He is within us would ever want us to do as He loves us as well as those we love! This would be the first clue that should tell us if we are near that place to stop and rethink our actions!
All sins are the same. None are a bigger than others and ALL are in need of redemption! When we start to think that one is less than others, we fall into pride and start to judge others as this person did this one but I WOULD NEVER DO THAT! Yet how many other sins have we done that God sees? To God they are all the same and all still need to be paid for before be can truly say we are saved and have been redeemed.
The only way is through Jesus!
[h=3]James 2:10-12[/h]New Living Translation (NLT)

[SUP]10 [/SUP]For the person who keeps all of the laws except one is as guilty as a person who has broken all of God’s laws. [SUP]11 [/SUP]For the same God who said, “You must not commit adultery,” also said, “You must not murder.”[SUP][a][/SUP] So if you murder someone but do not commit adultery, you have still broken the law.

[SUP]12 [/SUP]So whatever you say or whatever you do, remember that you will be judged by the law that sets you free.

Adultery, fortification, whatever the word, its wrong! When one becomes a Christian, it does not mean that we have a license to sin and then plead the mercy card and beg for forgiveness afterwards thinking we are back in gods grace again until the next time we decide to step out of bounds and repeat the process.

God doesnt accept premeditated acts of Sins and then playing the get out of jail free card game! For this is just what this has become to many people - a game! And they have played it for years...

But a true repentive heart does not want to sin and tries their best to do so with the Holy Spirits help. None of us are perfect and we all need help as we all fail without help! But our heart and motive must remain true to the Father to yearn to stay true to Him and this is where we need to focus. The motive of our heart is what drives us to many things! If we give the Father reigns in us then we will choose to serve Him. If the Father doesn't not hold the reigns in our life, then who is? That is who drives our lives and who steers us in the directions we go and if its us then we need to rethink our choices as we make many mistakes.

So remember that all sin is the same to God in His eyes and its only His opinion that counts in the end. So lets hand the reigns over to Him in our lives so He can help us make better choices so we don't make these sins in the first place!
:)
 

JGPS

Banned
Jan 11, 2013
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#13
Wrong is wrong! And sin is SIN! No matter what you want to call it. Its still not acceptable in Gods eyes and it is not pleasing for us as Christians to do regardless of which one it was.
its not like there are some sins that are better to do than others and therefore we are "allowed" to choose to perform these acts and think God is such a merciful god that He is going to play the mercy card on on when we know how to choose right from wrong yet do these things anyway.
Yeah. What does that have to do with this thread?

In some cases, plan and pay no attention to who we hurt in the process either and this is NOT something that the Holy Spirit who if He is within us would ever want us to do as He loves us as well as those we love! This would be the first clue that should tell us if we are near that place to stop and rethink our actions!
Understanding precisely who we are hurting when we commit various sins is in fact part of the point of this thread. I wrote a paragraph talking about who each of the sins I talked about hurt...

All sins are the same. None are a bigger than others and ALL are in need of redemption! When we start to think that one is less than others, we fall into pride and start to judge others as this person did this one but I WOULD NEVER DO THAT! Yet how many other sins have we done that God sees? To God they are all the same and all still need to be paid for before be can truly say we are saved and have been redeemed.
The only way is through Jesus!

Adultery, fortification, whatever the word, its wrong! When one becomes a Christian, it does not mean that we have a license to sin and then plead the mercy card and beg for forgiveness afterwards thinking we are back in gods grace again until the next time we decide to step out of bounds and repeat the process.

God doesnt accept premeditated acts of Sins and then playing the get out of jail free card game! For this is just what this has become to many people - a game! And they have played it for years...
What does this have to do with this thread?

But a true repentive heart does not want to sin and tries their best to do so with the Holy Spirits help. None of us are perfect and we all need help as we all fail without help! But our heart and motive must remain true to the Father to yearn to stay true to Him and this is where we need to focus. The motive of our heart is what drives us to many things! If we give the Father reigns in us then we will choose to serve Him. If the Father doesn't not hold the reigns in our life, then who is? That is who drives our lives and who steers us in the directions we go and if its us then we need to rethink our choices as we make many mistakes.
A redeemed heart will want to know what Gods Law is and know what Sin is so he can readily avoid it. That is part of the point of this thread, though what you posted doesn't relate that closely.

So remember that all sin is the same to God in His eyes and its only His opinion that counts in the end. So lets hand the reigns over to Him in our lives so He can help us make better choices so we don't make these sins in the first place!
:)
All sins are damnable and in that sense the same. But different sins take different actions, affect different people, and need to be addressed in different ways. It is important to understand what a sin is and is not and why. That is a large part of the point of this thread.
 

Dotann

Senior Member
Jan 28, 2012
146
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#14
I understand what you are meaning, and my response stays the same as in the end result is the same. But if you are looking for direct word where it states more clarification on this specifically then here are a few scriptures. (Actually, there are many, but here are only a couple)


Galatians 5:19-21

New Living Translation (NLT)


[SUP]19 [/SUP]When you follow the desires of your sinful nature, the results are very clear: sexual immorality, impurity, lustful pleasures, [SUP]20 [/SUP]idolatry, sorcery, hostility, quarreling, jealousy, outbursts of anger, selfish ambition, dissension, division, [SUP]21 [/SUP]envy, drunkenness, wild parties, and other sins like these. Let me tell you again, as I have before, that anyone living that sort of life will not inherit the Kingdom of God.

[h=3]Mark 7:20-23[/h]New Living Translation (NLT)

[SUP]20 [/SUP]And then he added, “It is what comes from inside that defiles you. [SUP]21 [/SUP]For from within, out of a person’s heart, come evil thoughts, sexual immorality, theft, murder, [SUP]22 [/SUP]adultery, greed, wickedness, deceit, lustful desires, envy, slander, pride, and foolishness. [SUP]23 [/SUP]All these vile things come from within; they are what defile you.”




Now it doesn't state which is adultery or fortification, but in this case, any of those one could fall in either category. Someone who commits adultery can also seek after sexual immorality, have impure thoughts, and lust for another even if in their heart as Mathew 5:28 states.

This can be said the same for fortification as well. Everything is the same as it stems from the desires of the heart.
The only thing that is different between the two is that the adulterer is the one who already connected to another person in Gods eyes as in Marriage. So they have sinned against their partner AND their God. While the fornicator is not married they sinned against only God.

This is why it is still a Sin. For God is to always come first in our life! When we choose to walk out our flesh in this manner, we are saying to God that he comes second in our life and we choose us over Him. So how then can we really say, we love Him and then with our actions prove differently?
 

JGPS

Banned
Jan 11, 2013
629
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#15
I understand what you are meaning, and my response stays the same as in the end result is the same. But if you are looking for direct word where it states more clarification on this specifically then here are a few scriptures. (Actually, there are many, but here are only a couple)
I don't think you do understand my meaning. Your response indicates you don't.

Galatians 5:19-21
New Living Translation (NLT)


[SUP]19 [/SUP]When you follow the desires of your sinful nature, the results are very clear: sexual immorality, impurity, lustful pleasures, [SUP]20 [/SUP]idolatry, sorcery, hostility, quarreling, jealousy, outbursts of anger, selfish ambition, dissension, division, [SUP]21 [/SUP]envy, drunkenness, wild parties, and other sins like these. Let me tell you again, as I have before, that anyone living that sort of life will not inherit the Kingdom of God.

American Standard Version, (ASV)

Gal 5:19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these: fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
Gal 5:20 idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousies, wraths, factions, divisions, parties,
Mark 7:20-23
New Living Translation (NLT)

[SUP]20 [/SUP]And then he added, “It is what comes from inside that defiles you. [SUP]21 [/SUP]For from within, out of a person’s heart, come evil thoughts, sexual immorality, theft, murder, [SUP]22 [/SUP]adultery, greed, wickedness, deceit, lustful desires, envy, slander, pride, and foolishness. [SUP]23 [/SUP]All these vile things come from within; they are what defile you.”
American Standard Version (ASV)

Mar 7:21 For from within, out of the heart of men, evil thoughts proceed, fornications, thefts, murders, adulteries,
Mar 7:22 covetings, wickednesses, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, railing, pride, foolishness:
Now it doesn't state which is adultery or fortification,
but in this case, any of those one could fall in either category
Yes, it does state it, your translation just uses a more modern term for fornication... It accurately calls fornication 'sexual immorality', which is right because fornication is sexual immorality in general while adultery is something specific.

Try to be more careful with scripture, its pretty bad to say it doesn't state the difference when it clearly and blatantly does in the very verse you quoted.
Someone who commits adultery can also seek after sexual immorality, have impure thoughts, and lust for another even if in their heart as Mathew 5:28 states.
Just as someone can be both a thief and murderer. People are quite capable of commiting more than one sin. What is your point?

This can be said the same for fortification as well. Everything is the same as it stems from the desires of the heart.
The only thing that is different between the two is that the adulterer is the one who already connected to another person in Gods eyes as in Marriage. So they have sinned against their partner AND their God. While the fornicator is not married they sinned against only God.
Don't forget that it is a sin against the self as well.

But one can be married and have issues with fornication without issues with adultery. Porn is a prime example of that.
 

WordGaurdian

Senior Member
May 1, 2011
473
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#16
That barely addresses this topic at all. I even referenced that verse in my post and made a point concerning it. F for effort?
LOL. :D So nice to see someone that want to make the same mistake I made. That way I might give you some advice. And if you refuse the advice, then you will fall into all the traps I have been in. So the simple answer to everybody is this... Do not and stay away from anything remotely having to do with thinking in a fleshly way towards the opposite (or these days same gender).

Here is a bit of help. The protection on the armour of God which is directly related to your loins is Truth. So here goes. You want to test it. Go ahead. If you want to (and I beforehand just want to apologise to the other members for saying these bad words, but this could save this guy years of trouble) watch pornographic movies. Seeing naked people, or addressing others in a way that would make someone wonder, then simply tell the truth and see if it is accepted. Go to the dad of the girl that you want to have sex with and tell him upfront you want to take away his daughter's virginity and have sex with her before you get married, now, right now. Cause you can't wait. Guess what 96% of all sin happens in haste. IF Adam and Eve told the snake that he should wait until God gets their and then they can all discuss it, then their would have been no sin.

So yeah, how about taking your girl's top off. Tell that to her dad or grandfather and see if he still thinks you're a nice guy. Ok, let's test it the other way. Tell her dad you are going to take her to a movie and a dinner. What? Yip. Most people do that all the time. Exactly. You see that which is part of darkness always try to get hidden, but that which is part of light can be discussed in the open.

When my wife had an operation, she had a cut right above her private parts. Her family had no problem with me coming into the room and noticing it and they even joked about it... why? Simple... we were married. It was acceptable. It was in the Light.

If you cheat on your girlfriend. Go and tell her immediately. No? Why not. Simple it is because of lust that you cheated not because of love. So what to do? Simple, don't do anything which you can not openly anounce to her, her parents and God in all truth. That way you know you are safe.

You want to try and find the edge of that reasoning of where immorality starts and where it ends. Let me give you a tip. You are already over it. Love is how much you give of yourself to someone else. Lust is how much pleasure someone else can give you. Love is open and can be discussed without getting yourself embarrassed in front of God. Lust is deceitful and will try and pull you as far into the abyss as possible.

You want limits. Sure. I can help you there. Stay away from fornicating. Stay away from adultery. Stay away from merely having sexual thoughts about a girl until you are married. And if you have already stepped over the line. Do yourself and your partners a favour. Ask God to break each and every spiritual bind between you and heal you. And Plead for God for forgiveness for one the things you have done, two your arrogance for doing it in the first place and three for not being totally truthful. And plead that God will let you be truthful in everything you do.

Imagine that you have to explain everything you have done with other girls to your wife and ask her forgiveness no matter what it is. Where do you want to have stopped and where do you want to have drawed the line. If you must reveal each and every detail and truthfully ask forgiveness for every action. Granted asking forgiveness from your wife for a kiss, can be simple. Asking her forgiveness for stepping over the line. Not as easy.

You want a healthy relationship with you wife, right? Then you need to be able to tell her the truth about everything you have ever done. If you can't or struggle with something... then you know that is where you took it too far. So stop before you get there.

Or you could simply do what Christ said. The verse I quoted to you. Either one, will result in the same.

How is this for effort?
 

JGPS

Banned
Jan 11, 2013
629
0
0
#17
LOL. :D So nice to see someone that want to make the same mistake I made.
Such a thing is quite unlikely, whatever your mistake may have been.
That way I might give you some advice. And if you refuse the advice, then you will fall into all the traps I have been in. So the simple answer to everybody is this... Do not and stay away from anything remotely having to do with thinking in a fleshly way towards the opposite (or these days same gender).

Here is a bit of help. The protection on the armour of God which is directly related to your loins is Truth. So here goes. You want to test it. Go ahead. If you want to (and I beforehand just want to apologise to the other members for saying these bad words, but this could save this guy years of trouble) watch pornographic movies. Seeing naked people, or addressing others in a way that would make someone wonder, then simply tell the truth and see if it is accepted. Go to the dad of the girl that you want to have sex with and tell him upfront you want to take away his daughter's virginity and have sex with her before you get married, now, right now. Cause you can't wait. Guess what 96% of all sin happens in haste. IF Adam and Eve told the snake that he should wait until God gets their and then they can all discuss it, then their would have been no sin.

So yeah, how about taking your girl's top off. Tell that to her dad or grandfather and see if he still thinks you're a nice guy. Ok, let's test it the other way. Tell her dad you are going to take her to a movie and a dinner. What? Yip. Most people do that all the time. Exactly. You see that which is part of darkness always try to get hidden, but that which is part of light can be discussed in the open.

When my wife had an operation, she had a cut right above her private parts. Her family had no problem with me coming into the room and noticing it and they even joked about it... why? Simple... we were married. It was acceptable. It was in the Light.

If you cheat on your girlfriend. Go and tell her immediately. No? Why not. Simple it is because of lust that you cheated not because of love. So what to do? Simple, don't do anything which you can not openly anounce to her, her parents and God in all truth. That way you know you are safe.
None of this really has anything to do with the topic...
You want to try and find the edge of that reasoning of where immorality starts and where it ends.
Obviously one needs to be clear on what is or isn't sin. Elsewise the nutters that want to ban humming because anything thats not a hymn is secular and demonic to them would actually have a case. This is part of due diligence with scripture; to understand what is said and why.

Let me give you a tip. You are already over it.
I have done nothing one way or another. You're making assumptions.
Love is how much you give of yourself to someone else.
Love is a great deal more than that.

Lust is how much pleasure someone else can give you.
Lust isn't that at all. It's wanting something that should not be yours. I linked to another thread that explained this if you care to discuss it.

Love is open and can be discussed without getting yourself embarrassed in front of God. Lust is deceitful and will try and pull you as far into the abyss as possible.
Lust goes way beyond just sex... You should really look at the other thread I linked too.

You want limits. Sure. I can help you there.
It's quite unlikely you could help me. At any rate putting together a more thought out post is helpful in its own way. Thank you for that.

Stay away from fornicating. Stay away from adultery.
Obviously.
Stay away from merely having sexual thoughts about a girl until you are married.
Stay away from sexual thoughts with another mans woman. Wanting your girlfreind or fiancee is quite acceptable. The only reason it causes problems is because people ridiculously draw out engagements and don't really understand the scriptural implications of sex.

Wanting a woman you can marry is a good thing.
And if you have already stepped over the line. Do yourself and your partners a favour. Ask God to break each and every spiritual bind between you and heal you. And Plead for God for forgiveness for one the things you have done, two your arrogance for doing it in the first place and three for not being totally truthful. And plead that God will let you be truthful in everything you do.
I'm almost inclined to ask what exactly you did. But this isn't a confessional thread.
Imagine that you have to explain everything you have done with other girls to your wife and ask her forgiveness no matter what it is. Where do you want to have stopped and where do you want to have drawed the line. If you must reveal each and every detail and truthfully ask forgiveness for every action. Granted asking forgiveness from your wife for a kiss, can be simple. Asking her forgiveness for stepping over the line. Not as easy.
Typically my wife and I date girls together, so she's there and knows whats going on. :eek:

When we do solo dates she likes to be filled in, but she's always happy to hear whats going on, its rather easy and fun to tell her how it went (unless it went badly).

I suppose if I committed a major faux paus or broke up it would be hard to explain it to her. But generally when we decide break up we decide to break up together as well.

You want a healthy relationship with you wife, right? Then you need to be able to tell her the truth about everything you have ever done. If you can't or struggle with something... then you know that is where you took it too far. So stop before you get there.
I should hope that you want a healthy relationship with your wife. It's unlike it would be quite so healthy as the one I have with mine, but we do marriage in the old way, so we have a bit of a leg up.
Or you could simply do what Christ said. The verse I quoted to you. Either one, will result in the same.
Given that scripturally adultery always speaks of a woman who breaks wedlock (and the man with her) that verse applies only to looking at another mans woman and wanting to take her from him. This lines up with Deuteronomy nicely. Remember that there are not distinct terms for 'Woman' and 'Wife' in Greek.

It is not possible to commit adultery with an unmarried woman.

This is part of why it is important to understand what adultery is, its another piece of understanding Biblical marriage (rather than 'traditional marriage' which most churches teach nowdays).

How is this for effort?
You have said something at least. It is better than before. It is substantial dialogue at least. Thank you for that.
 

WordGaurdian

Senior Member
May 1, 2011
473
8
0
#18
If you and your wife date girls together... than firstly I hope you were making a joke. But just in case you weren't.

WAKE UP.

But hey... let's be civil about this. You want to go and see how far you can push your boundaries. I've warned you in the nicest way possible. You want to try and outsmart it and be clever. Go ahead. Be smart. Here is a few scripture for you about those SMART people mentioned in the Bible.


Rom 1:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
Rom 1:22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
Rom 1:23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
Rom 1:24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:
Rom 1:25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
Rom 1:26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
Rom 1:27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
Rom 1:28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
Rom 1:29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,
Rom 1:30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
Rom 1:31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:
Rom 1:32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.


2Ti 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
2Ti 4:4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.


You wish to find people that will listen to you so that you can say that you are right. Don't worry. You will find them. But believe you me when I say, in no way are you going to reach what God intended for you.


But hey... don't let me stop you. Try to rip these pieces also out of porportion. Go ahead. The way I see it, you have two choices which God gives you at this very moment. He shows you the error which you have concluded in. Giving you a choice to choose Him. Or you can choose to ignore God's warning. But just so you know. If you want my sympathy for what is going to take place in your life if you choose wrong. You completely have it. Been there done that. Got the life scars, and NEVER going back again. But that's just me. Maybe I am too unintelligent or dumb to fully comprehend just how exactly you want to mean things. Even though I can understand how each of the seven gifts of offices work and their over 70 combinations in total in the human species and I can identify each and every person on his gift as soon as I've spend 30 minutes with him one on one, I can tell him exactly what bugs him, what traps are ahead of him in the future, what he can do to improve his spiritual progress. I guess since I received all this by grace I am pretty dumb and foolish. Understanding how patterns in human lives occur and how various concepts of how churches are combined into unison and how they can improve their bond between each other and God. But I guess you to SMART and intelligent that anything i know might even in the remotest part of your world apply to you. OK. Not a problem. You know what. I am not so intelligent and not so smart. For if I were I probably wouldn't have made the mistakes I made. But by God's grace, He saved me from my own stupidity. And if I can go back in time I would change every stupid mistake I've ever made. But guess what. I can't. But don't let me stop you.


In fact... I've said my peace. I have warned you. I tried to help you. But since you know better, I guess I can't teach you nothing. So by grace you won't have to read further in this thread from me. May you find grace... because you choose a bitter path for your family.
 

JGPS

Banned
Jan 11, 2013
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#19
If you and your wife date girls together... than firstly I hope you were making a joke. But just in case you weren't.
A cursory look at my profile would strongly indicate i'm not :)
Oh I'm quite lucid. You're the one in a dreamlike haze without the clearly defined lines. If you had such lines you may not have made the mistake you indicated you did.
But hey... let's be civil about this.
Civil. Interesting choice of words. A tetriary definition of it is '6. of or in accordance with Roman law' Which is exactly what I'm not.

I understand you mean it in the sense of '4. polite or courteous', and it is always good to be courteous.
You want to go and see how far you can push your boundaries.
Not at all. There are much more important reasons for what I'm doing. I'm going to roll out a quote from "Thelyphethora" (a treatise on the ruination of women in Chrisitan societies from the early 1700's) that starts to show that. I'll make it my sig for now, so take the time to check it.
I've warned you in the nicest way possible.
And yet you're the one who's wound up seeking forgiveness in your life, where I have not had occasion too in mine. It is not the greatest source of a warning.
You want to try and outsmart it and be clever. Go ahead. Be smart. Here is a few scripture for you about those SMART people mentioned in the Bible.
Scripture is not anti-intelectual. Christ is the Reason and Purpose of the universe, he is not and cannot be himself unreasonable. But if your only gripe with me is that I'm intelligent you're values are quite twisted.

Rom 1:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
Rom 1:22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
Rom 1:23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
Rom 1:24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:
Rom 1:25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
Rom 1:26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
Rom 1:27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
Rom 1:28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
Rom 1:29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,
Rom 1:30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
Rom 1:31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:
Rom 1:32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.
Rom 1:20 For the invisible things of him since the creation of the world are clearly seen, being perceived through the things that are made, even his everlasting power and divinity; that they may be without excuse:
I glorify God for what He is continually, if you are attempting to use this verse against me you have grievously misused and misunderstood it. I implore you to take more care with Scripture in the future, it is not good to handle it so carelessly.

It is inexcusable to skip the verse that provides the context and highlight only the words that you believe to support your case. Again I say, handle scripture with more diligence.
2Ti 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
2Ti 4:4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.
This verse is again why it is important to understand exactly what lust is.

1st Timothy explains what their ears itch for and what fables they make instead of truth.

1Ti 4:1 But the Spirit saith expressly, that in later times some shall fall away from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits and doctrines of demons,
1Ti 4:2 through the hypocrisy of men that speak lies, branded in their own conscience as with a hot iron;
1Ti 4:3 forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God created to be received with thanksgiving by them that believe and know the truth.
1Ti 4:4 For every creature of God is good, and nothing is to be rejected, if it be received with thanksgiving:
1Ti 4:5 for it is sanctified through the word of God and prayer.
1Ti 4:6 If thou put the brethren in mind of these things, thou shalt be a good minister of Christ Jesus, nourished in the words of the faith, and of the good doctrine which thou hast followed until now:
1Ti 4:7 but refuse profane and old wives' fables. And exercise thyself unto godliness:
The heart of man often lusts for more laws and rules so that it may feel pious. Hypocrasy is more often in creating new laws than ignoring true ones.

You wish to find people that will listen to you so that you can say that you are right. Don't worry. You will find them. But believe you me when I say, in no way are you going to reach what God intended for you.
I get people to listen to me because I tell them things that are important to understand. The Kingdom is not promoted by people who do not understand what God wants in His Kingdom.
But hey... don't let me stop you. Try to rip these pieces also out of porportion. Go ahead. The way I see it, you have two choices which God gives you at this very moment.
There are usually many choices available.
He shows you the error which you have concluded in. Giving you a choice to choose Him. Or you can choose to ignore God's warning.
In fact you have similar choices. You can learn to trust God, trust Scripture, and work that brain of yours to understand exactly what God wants from people and thus engage seriously in this discussion, or you can cling to your culture because it is more secure for you. But if you choose that later it is you who will not become all God has for you.
But just so you know. If you want my sympathy for what is going to take place in your life if you choose wrong. You completely have it. Been there done that. Got the life scars, and NEVER going back again. But that's just me.
What you have done was done in secrecy, against your vows, and treacherously. You most likely created several sins by what you did, possibly more than you know. I am glad you have work it out and found forgiveness, and you have my pity.

That said, never equate that which is done openly with mutual agreement and study with something done secretly, treacherously, and ignorantly. What I do has nothing to do with your error.
Maybe I am too unintelligent or dumb to fully comprehend just how exactly you want to mean things.
You are not. If you have trouble with what I'm saying its because you're wilfully and intelligently misusing scripture, just as you convinently cut Verse 20 out of your Romans quote. It is not your intelligence that is the problem, it is your choices.
Even though I can understand how each of the seven gifts of offices work and their over 70 combinations in total in the human species and I can identify each and every person on his gift as soon as I've spend 30 minutes with him one on one, I can tell him exactly what bugs him, what traps are ahead of him in the future, what he can do to improve his spiritual progress.
An empathetic gift is not a bad thing. In general that gift is not fully effective using the internet medium as reading people takes many physical cues. But I didn't ask for your resume, why do you feel the need to post it?
I guess since I received all this by grace I am pretty dumb and foolish.
Throwing yourself a pity party is unproductive. It's a way to disengage from proper dialogue. I generally resent people that do it.
Understanding how patterns in human lives occur and how various concepts of how churches are combined into unison and how they can improve their bond between each other and God.
Indeed. But the pattern I speak of is arcane, it is unlikely you have done any research on it.
But I guess you to SMART and intelligent that anything i know might even in the remotest part of your world apply to you. OK. Not a problem. You know what.
I never said anything of the sort. If you're intimidated by the form and style of my language that is your own business and something for you to get over.
I am not so intelligent and not so smart.
As I said again, pity parties are a waste. I don't care how smart someone is, I care how they apply themselves. That is all that counts.
For if I were I probably wouldn't have made the mistakes I made.
Your mistakes come from your own will. They have nothing to do with how smart you are or not. Our sins come from our volition, not our abilities.
But by God's grace, He saved me from my own stupidity. And if I can go back in time I would change every stupid mistake I've ever made. But guess what. I can't. But don't let me stop you.
Turning back time is unnecessary due to Christ sacrifice. But that is another conversation
In fact... I've said my peace. I have warned you. I tried to help you. But since you know better, I guess I can't teach you nothing.
But you have not yet been warned. A decent dialogue includes both learning and teaching, if you come only to teach you're being too presumptuous.

So by grace you won't have to read further in this thread from me. May you find grace... because you choose a bitter path for your family.
I do choose a difficult path, but joyful.


But the quote is too long for my sig, untill I re-format it I'll just post it here:


"The only real and substantial difference between the ancient Jews and the Christians is this:
The former took a plurality of women whom they maintained, protected and provided for agreeably to God’s word.The latter take a plurality of women and turn them out to ruin and destruction not only against God’s word but against every principle of justice and humanity. Or in other words, if the jew took as many as he could maintain, the Christian ruins as many as he can debauch...We may boast of our marriage and condemn polygamy, but there is not a nation under heaven where polygamy is more openly practised than in this Christian country, for, though a man can marry but one at a time, he may have as great a variety as he pleases without ever marrying at all...
To punish a poor deserted creature for being a prostitute, when it is put out of her power to force her seducer
to provide for her as the divine law enjoins, is equally cruel and foolish, not very unlike the man who threw his
child into a ditch and then beat him for being dirty."
From Thelyphthora by Martin Madan 1701

This is why I take offence to you paralleling your error with my choice. It very much sounds like you did the typical 'christian' thing of taking a woman other then your wife and using 'adultery' as an excuse to get rid of her. When in reality if she was single you ought to have taken care of her for the things you did to her.
 
Feb 17, 2013
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#20
Building from here.

The only functional definition of scriptural adultery is a man taking another mans woman. A married woman with a man that is not her husband. A concordance will give you something along the lines of 'a woman that breaketh wedlock' as its definition of adultery in scripture.

Intercourse between a married man and an unmarried woman generally falls in the category of fornication, and not adultery. Similarly two unmarried individuals cannot commit adultery, but can only fornicate.

The modern sense of adultery which goes both ways doesn't function in scripture because throughout scripture men are allowed more than one wife. Under the modern definition a great deal of normal marriage in scripture would be considered adultery.

Understanding the biblical meaning of adultery is important for numerous reasons, but there are a few I'd like to point out. First the nature of the crime of adultery is somewhat different than fornication. Fornication is a crime in the present that hurts those who do it. Adultery is a crime against the future. The English archaic sense of adultery explains this well. To adulterate something is to take something of value and purity and debase or devalue it by mixing in inferior materials or elements. It's adding lead to gold or mixing olive oil with cheap canola oil. It affects the end product. Adultery leaves questions of parentage and purity that can do lasting damaged not only to the relationships of those involved but also the next generation of relationships.

Secondly understanding what adultery means changes ones view of Matt 5:28 from being something novel and neigh unreasonable, especially to the young, to something quite tolerable that scripture has always said.

Obviously one cannot commit adultery with an unmarried woman.

Of course there are more implications than that, but those are a few things that come to mind.
Then why would Jesus say that if you even look at a woman ( or man) with sexual intent. That you have already committed adultery in your heart.