Questions for Oneness.

Hey I have seen quite a lot of theads on the topic lately so I figure I'd ask these people some questions. There are quite a lot of questions so I didn't want to "spam" anyones thread. Anyway there is a list of apologists I've been looking at lately and here are some quotes/questions from them.
*note all below are quotes - but I'd like to actually see some of the Oneness people's real responses from the heart.*

1) The Oneness position cannot explain logically or Biblically the clear references to the pre-existence and Creatorship of the Son such as Colossians 1, Hebrews 1 and John 1.
2) This position fails to demonstrate any kind of identification of Jesus Christ as the Father, and ignores or inadequately explains the many references that demonstrate the personal distinctions of Father and Son.
3) This position relies heavily on assumed and unproven presuppositions, such as the uni-personality of Yahweh. These writers tend to be very selective in their choice of facts, which can also be seen in their easy rejection of textual evidence that contradicts their position
4) The Christological formulation of the Oneness position is untenable and without Scriptural support. There is no evidence that Jesus was two persons, nor that the two "natures" communicated with one another.
5) The understanding of the Logos given in Scripture is totally lacking in the Oneness perspective. The clear personal nature of the Logos must be sacrificed to maintain the system.

Philippians 2:
5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
That is the KJV, let's see if the NASB makes it a bit more clear...
5 Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus,
6 who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped,
7 but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men.

"The key verb is "emptied". The possession of equality took place BEFORE the emptying. "Taking" the form of a servant descrbies the means of the "emptying," as does "being made in the likeness of men." Jesus was "made in the likeness of men" at the Incarnation.
Therefore, this passage teaches the deity of Christ ("form of God"), and as well as the distinct personhood of the Son prior to the Incarnation, Just as in John 1:1 and 17:5, the text is inarguable: the Son, as the Son, is eternal.
The Logos, the Word, eternally existed as God, and was in fellowship with the Father. (John 1:1)
The Son shared glory with the Father before the world existed. (John 17:5)
Prior to the Incarnation, the Son was divine and active. (Phil 2:5-7)"

"We see, then, the meaning of the oneness of God passages in the OT: They refer to a onenesss of BEING, not oneness of PERSON
They are in "tri" and "unity."

(Dr. James White.)



Oneness theology teaches that God was in the mode of the Father in the Old Testament. God was seen in the OT (not as a vision or a dream or an angel in the following verses: Exo. 6:2-3; Gen. 19:24; Num. 12:6-. But, Jesus said no one has seen the Father (John 6:46). If they were seeing God Almighty (Exo. 6:2-3) but it wasn't the Father, then who was it?

If Jesus' will and the Father's will were identical, then why did Jesus express the desire to escape the cup but resigns Himself not to His own will, but the will of the Father?

Was Jesus praying to Himself in the Garden of Gethsemane?

If Jesus was praying to the divine side of Himself, then isn't He still praying to Himself?

Why was Jesus not saying, "Not My will, but MY will be done?" if there is only one person and one will involved when He was praying in Luke 22:42 & Matt. 26:39.

Since the Bible teaches us that Jesus is in bodily form now (Col. 2:9), then how does the Oneness Pentecostal person maintain that God is in the form of the Holy Spirit? Also, when Jesus returns, will He return in His body? Will God's form then revert to the form of the Son at a later date?

If God is only one person, why did Jesus say in John 14:23, "If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him." If God is only one person, why does Jesus say, "we"?

(Matt Slick)

King David saw 2 Persons
Psa. 110:1 A Psalm of David. The Lord says to my Lord: "Sit at My right hand, Until I make Thine enemies a footstool for Thy feet."

**End quotes.

What was Jesus talking about in John 17:5 ..And now, O Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was. ???

I mean even Muslims and Jehovah's Witnesses can prove to any of Oneness pentecostals that Jesus is NOT the Father. While doing so they are TRYING to prove Jesus is NOT God, but what they fail to see is that Jesus IS indeed God and they are just making distinctions between the Son and the Father.

I really am interested in seeing some of the answers, now you don't have to answer them all but I'd like to see what someone who is in favor of Oneness has to say. I am truely interested because I am seeking God and truth more and more everyday so if you can help me understand by answering these questions/ and not ignoring the questions and just posting some sermon on Oneness. I would appreciate it. Thank you for your time and help.. God bless you.

[watchmen]

Like you said some of these are statements not question, but i have problem explaining my understanding of scripture to you.

Originally Posted by Young_Gideon

1) The Oneness position cannot explain logically or Biblically the clear references to the pre-existence and Creatorship of the Son such as Colossians 1, Hebrews 1 and John 1.

The Son existed as the Father Himself or the Word. He was used in Creation because God ''spoke'' all things into existence.

Originally Posted by Young_Gideon

2) This position fails to demonstrate any kind of identification of Jesus Christ as the Father, and ignores or inadequately explains the many references that demonstrate the personal distinctions of Father and Son.

Isaiah prophecied that Christ would be both Father and Son.
Isaiah 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

Further more Jesus Himself told His disciples that He was indded the Father.
John 14
7If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.
8Philip saith unto him, Lord, show us the Father, and it sufficeth us.
9Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father?

Originally Posted by Young_Gideon

3) This position relies heavily on assumed and unproven presuppositions, such as the uni-personality of Yahweh. These writers tend to be very selective in their choice of facts, which can also be seen in their easy rejection of textual evidence that contradicts their position

#1 There is more that ample text declaring that God is one and only one too many to post, even Christ Himself declared it to be so.
Mark 12:29 And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:

Here is another odd text for Trinitarians
1st Corinthians 8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.
So which one is God and which one is Lord, are they both both, or are they one and the same being?

To respond to your last statement in point 3 we ignore or reject contradictory statement. There is no statement in scripture that contradicts what I believe

Originally Posted by Young_Gideon

4) The Christological formulation of the Oneness position is untenable and without Scriptural support. There is no evidence that Jesus was two persons, nor that the two "natures" communicated with one another.

#1 I do not believe that Jesus was two persons
#2 Even Trinitarians teach that Jesus had a divine nature, and a Human nature.
#3 The man Jesus Christ did pray to God who was and is His Father, this also taught by trinitarians, and does not contradict the Oneness belief.

Originally Posted by Young_Gideon

5) The understanding of the Logos given in Scripture is totally lacking in the Oneness perspective. The clear personal nature of the Logos must be sacrificed to maintain the system.

Is your ''word'' or logos seoparate from you? No it isn't and God's word was and is not a seoparate being from Him.

Originally Posted by watchmen

Like you said some of these are statements not question, but i have problem explaining my understanding of scripture to you. The Son existed as the Father Himself or the Word. He was used in Creation because God ''spoke'' all things into existence.
Isaiah prophecied that Christ would be both Father and Son.
Isaiah 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

Further more Jesus Himself told His disciples that He was indded the Father.
John 14
7If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.
8Philip saith unto him, Lord, show us the Father, and it sufficeth us.
9Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father?
#1 There is more that ample text declaring that God is one and only one too many to post, even Christ Himself declared it to be so.
Mark 12:29 And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:

Here is another odd text for Trinitarians
1st Corinthians 8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.
So which one is God and which one is Lord, are they both both, or are they one and the same being?

To respond to your last statement in point 3 we ignore or reject contradictory statement. There is no statement in scripture that contradicts what I believe
#1 I do not believe that Jesus was two persons
#2 Even Trinitarians teach that Jesus had a divine nature, and a Human nature.
#3 The man Jesus Christ did pray to God who was and is His Father, this also taught by trinitarians, and does not contradict the Oneness belief.
Is your ''word'' or logos seoparate from you? No it isn't and God's word was and is not a seoparate being from Him.

I love how he skirted most of the actual questions Young_Gideon posed.

[watchmen]

Originally Posted by CarrierOfChrist

I love how he skirted most of the actual questions Young_Gideon posed.

Actually I answered them directly. Explain one thing he asked that I did not directly address and I will address it.

Originally Posted by Young_Gideon

Hey I have seen quite a lot of theads on the topic lately so I figure I'd ask these people some questions. There are quite a lot of questions so I didn't want to "spam" anyones thread. Anyway there is a list of apologists I've been looking at lately and here are some quotes/questions from them.
*note all below are quotes - but I'd like to actually see some of the Oneness people's real responses from the heart.*

1) The Oneness position cannot explain logically or Biblically the clear references to the pre-existence and Creatorship of the Son such as Colossians 1, Hebrews 1 and John 1.
2) This position fails to demonstrate any kind of identification of Jesus Christ as the Father, and ignores or inadequately explains the many references that demonstrate the personal distinctions of Father and Son.
3) This position relies heavily on assumed and unproven presuppositions, such as the uni-personality of Yahweh. These writers tend to be very selective in their choice of facts, which can also be seen in their easy rejection of textual evidence that contradicts their position
4) The Christological formulation of the Oneness position is untenable and without Scriptural support. There is no evidence that Jesus was two persons, nor that the two "natures" communicated with one another.
5) The understanding of the Logos given in Scripture is totally lacking in the Oneness perspective. The clear personal nature of the Logos must be sacrificed to maintain the system.

Philippians 2:
5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
That is the KJV, let's see if the NASB makes it a bit more clear...
5 Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus,
6 who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped,
7 but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men.

"The key verb is "emptied". The possession of equality took place BEFORE the emptying. "Taking" the form of a servant descrbies the means of the "emptying," as does "being made in the likeness of men." Jesus was "made in the likeness of men" at the Incarnation.
Therefore, this passage teaches the deity of Christ ("form of God"), and as well as the distinct personhood of the Son prior to the Incarnation, Just as in John 1:1 and 17:5, the text is inarguable: the Son, as the Son, is eternal.
The Logos, the Word, eternally existed as God, and was in fellowship with the Father. (John 1:1)
The Son shared glory with the Father before the world existed. (John 17:5)
Prior to the Incarnation, the Son was divine and active. (Phil 2:5-7)"

"We see, then, the meaning of the oneness of God passages in the OT: They refer to a onenesss of BEING, not oneness of PERSON
They are in "tri" and "unity."

(Dr. James White.)



Oneness theology teaches that God was in the mode of the Father in the Old Testament. God was seen in the OT (not as a vision or a dream or an angel in the following verses: Exo. 6:2-3; Gen. 19:24; Num. 12:6-. But, Jesus said no one has seen the Father (John 6:46). If they were seeing God Almighty (Exo. 6:2-3) but it wasn't the Father, then who was it?

God's Name represents His charater, power, authority, and abiding presence.
Exd 6:2And God spake unto Moses, and said unto him, I am the LORD: Exd 6:3And I appeared unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob, by the name of God Almighty, but by my name JEHOVAH was I not known to them. Exd 6:4And I have also established my covenant with them, to give them the land of Canaan, the land of their pilgrimage, wherein they were strangers. Exd 6:5And I have also heard the groaning of the children of Israel, whom the Egyptians keep in bondage; and I have remembered my covenant. Exd 6:6Wherefore say unto the children of Israel, I am the LORD, and I will bring you out from under the burdens of the Egyptians, and I will rid you out of their bondage, and I will redeem you with a stretched out arm, and with great judgments: Exd 6:7 And I will take you to me for a people, and I will be to you a God: and ye shall know that I am the LORD your God, which bringeth you out from under the burdens of the Egyptians.
Exd 9:16 And in very deed for this [cause] have I raised thee up, for to shew in thee my power; and that my name may be declared throughout all the earth.
Exd 23:20Behold, I send an Angel before thee, to keep thee in the way, and to bring thee into the place which I have prepared. Exd 23:21Beware of him, and obey his voice, provoke him not; for he will not pardon your transgressions: for my name is in him. 1Ki 8:29That thine eyes may be open toward this house night and day, even toward the place of which thou hast said, My name shall be there: that thou mayest hearken unto the prayer which thy servant shall make toward this place. 1Ki 8:30And hearken thou to the supplication of thy servant, and of thy people Israel, when they shall pray toward this place: and hear thou in heaven thy dwelling place: and when thou hearest, forgive. 1Ki 8:31If any man trespass against his neighbour, and an oath be laid upon him to cause him to swear, and the oath come before thine altar in this house: 1Ki 8:32Then hear thou in heaven, and do, and judge thy servants, condemning the wicked, to bring his way upon his head; and justifying the righteous, to give him according to his righteousness. 1Ki 8:33When thy people Israel be smitten down before the enemy, because they have sinned against thee, and shall turn again to thee, and confess thy name, and pray, and make supplication unto thee in this house: 1Ki 8:34Then hear thou in heaven, and forgive the sin of thy people Israel, and bring them again unto the land which thou gavest unto their fathers. 1Ki 8:35When heaven is shut up, and there is no rain, because they have sinned against thee; if they pray toward this place, and confess thy name, and turn from their sin, when thou afflictest them: 1Ki 8:36Then hear thou in heaven, and forgive the sin of thy servants, and of thy people Israel, that thou teach them the good way wherein they should walk, and give rain upon thy land, which thou hast given to thy people for an inheritance. 1Ki 8:37If there be in the land famine, if there be pestilence, blasting, mildew, locust, or if there be caterpiller; if their enemy besiege them in the land of their cities; whatsoever plague, whatsoever sickness there be; 1Ki 8:38What prayer and supplication soever be made by any man, or by all thy people Israel, which shall know every man the plague of his own heart, and spread forth his hands toward this house: 1Ki 8:39Then hear thou in heaven thy dwelling place, and forgive, and do, and give to every man according to his ways, whose heart thou knowest; for thou, even thou only, knowest the hearts of all the children of men 1Ki 8:40That they may fear thee all the days that they live in the land which thou gavest unto our fathers. 1Ki 8:41Moreover concerning a stranger, that is not of thy people Israel, but cometh out of a far country for thy name's sake; 1Ki 8:42(For they shall hear of thy great name, and of thy strong hand, and of thy stretched out arm when he shall come and pray toward this house; 1Ki 8:43Hear thou in heaven thy dwelling place, and do according to all that the stranger calleth to thee for: that all people of the earth may know thy name, to fear thee, as [do] thy people Israel; and that they may know that this house, which I have builded, is called by thy name.Jesus thus requested that God's character and presence be revealed through His human life.
Jhn 17:6I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word. Jhn 17:7Now they have known that all things whatsoever thou hast given me are of thee. Jhn 17:8For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me. Jhn 17:9I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine. Jhn 17:10And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them. Jhn 17:11And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are. Jhn 17:12While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled. Jhn 17:13And now come I to thee; and these things I speak in the world, that they might have my joy fulfilled in themselves. Jhn 17:14I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. Jhn 17:15I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil. Jhn 17:16They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. Jhn 17:17Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth. Jhn 17:18As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world. Jhn 17:19And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth. Jhn 17:20Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word; Jhn 17:21That they all may be one; as thou, Father, [art] in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. Jhn 17:22And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one: Jhn 17:23I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.
If Jesus' will and the Father's will were identical, then why did Jesus express the desire to escape the cup but resigns Himself not to His own will, but the will of the Father?

Was Jesus praying to Himself in the Garden of Gethsemane?

If Jesus was praying to the divine side of Himself, then isn't He still praying to Himself?

Why was Jesus not saying, "Not My will, but MY will be done?" if there is only one person and one will involved when He was praying in Luke 22:42 & Matt. 26:39.


Since the Bible teaches us that Jesus is in bodily form now (Col. 2:9),


then how does the Oneness Pentecostal person maintain that God is in the form of the Holy Spirit? Also, when Jesus returns, will He return in His body? Will God's form then revert to the form of the Son at a later date?

If God is only one person, why did Jesus say in John 14:23, "If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him." If God is only one person, why does Jesus say, "we"?

(Matt Slick)

King David saw 2 Persons
Psa. 110:1 A Psalm of David. The Lord says to my Lord: "Sit at My right hand, Until I make Thine enemies a footstool for Thy feet."

**End quotes.

What was Jesus talking about in John 17:5 ..And now, O Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was. ???

I mean even Muslims and Jehovah's Witnesses can prove to any of Oneness pentecostals that Jesus is NOT the Father. While doing so they are TRYING to prove Jesus is NOT God, but what they fail to see is that Jesus IS indeed God and they are just making distinctions between the Son and the Father.

I really am interested in seeing some of the answers, now you don't have to answer them all but I'd like to see what someone who is in favor of Oneness has to say. I am truely interested because I am seeking God and truth more and more everyday so if you can help me understand by answering these questions/ and not ignoring the questions and just posting some sermon on Oneness. I would appreciate it. Thank you for your time and help.. God bless you.

I have to split the answers to your questions in three parts.

Originally Posted by Young_Gideon

Hey I have seen quite a lot of theads on the topic lately so I figure I'd ask these people some questions. There are quite a lot of questions so I didn't want to "spam" anyones thread. Anyway there is a list of apologists I've been looking at lately and here are some quotes/questions from them.
*note all below are quotes - but I'd like to actually see some of the Oneness people's real responses from the heart.*

1) The Oneness position cannot explain logically or Biblically the clear references to the pre-existence and Creatorship of the Son such as Colossians 1, Hebrews 1 and John 1.
2) This position fails to demonstrate any kind of identification of Jesus Christ as the Father, and ignores or inadequately explains the many references that demonstrate the personal distinctions of Father and Son.
3) This position relies heavily on assumed and unproven presuppositions, such as the uni-personality of Yahweh. These writers tend to be very selective in their choice of facts, which can also be seen in their easy rejection of textual evidence that contradicts their position
4) The Christological formulation of the Oneness position is untenable and without Scriptural support. There is no evidence that Jesus was two persons, nor that the two "natures" communicated with one another.
5) The understanding of the Logos given in Scripture is totally lacking in the Oneness perspective. The clear personal nature of the Logos must be sacrificed to maintain the system.

Philippians 2:
5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
That is the KJV, let's see if the NASB makes it a bit more clear...
5 Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus,
6 who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped,
7 but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men.

"The key verb is "emptied". The possession of equality took place BEFORE the emptying. "Taking" the form of a servant descrbies the means of the "emptying," as does "being made in the likeness of men." Jesus was "made in the likeness of men" at the Incarnation.
Therefore, this passage teaches the deity of Christ ("form of God"), and as well as the distinct personhood of the Son prior to the Incarnation, Just as in John 1:1 and 17:5, the text is inarguable: the Son, as the Son, is eternal.
The Logos, the Word, eternally existed as God, and was in fellowship with the Father. (John 1:1)
The Son shared glory with the Father before the world existed. (John 17:5)
Prior to the Incarnation, the Son was divine and active. (Phil 2:5-7)"

"We see, then, the meaning of the oneness of God passages in the OT: They refer to a onenesss of BEING, not oneness of PERSON
They are in "tri" and "unity."

(Dr. James White.)



Oneness theology teaches that God was in the mode of the Father in the Old Testament. God was seen in the OT (not as a vision or a dream or an angel in the following verses: Exo. 6:2-3; Gen. 19:24; Num. 12:6-. But, Jesus said no one has seen the Father (John 6:46). If they were seeing God Almighty (Exo. 6:2-3) but it wasn't the Father, then who was it?

If Jesus' will and the Father's will were identical, then why did Jesus express the desire to escape the cup but resigns Himself not to His own will, but the will of the Father?

Was Jesus praying to Himself in the Garden of Gethsemane?

If Jesus was praying to the divine side of Himself, then isn't He still praying to Himself?

Why was Jesus not saying, "Not My will, but MY will be done?" if there is only one person and one will involved when He was praying in Luke 22:42 & Matt. 26:39.
In Jesus Christ, two wills or natures are portrayed: a human will and a Divine will. He was man flesh and He was God Spirit. As man He prayed in the garden of Gethsemane, "O my Father.. not as I WILL, but as THOU WILT." Matt. 26:39. Also He cried out on the cross, "My God, my God. Why host thou forsaken me?" Matt. 27:46. Certainly these Scriptures do not imply that Jesus Christ is a separate Person or Deity with the Father. Far Deity does not pray to Deity! Futhermore, Deity cannot die! So as man, Jesus Christ prayed in His human nature to His Divine nature. Because, in His human nature, the flesh did not want to die, but He knew the will of the Spirit must be done. Also at Calvary He cried out in His human nature to His Divine nature; and when the Spirit left the body, He fulfilled His human role of death. As man, He was hungry, He slept, He became weary, He wept, He increased in wisdom and stature, He prayed, and He died. (See Matt. 4:2, Matt. 8:24, John 4:6, John 11,35, Luke 2:52, Matt. 26:39, Matt. 27:50.) As God, He healed the sick, He cast out devils, He raised the dead, He calmed the sea. He forgave sins, He answered prayer, and He arose from the grave. (See Matt. 4,23, Luke 8:35, John 11:43,44, Mark 4:39, Mark 2:5, John 14:14, John 2:19-21.) Jesus Christ said, "I can of mine own self (human nature) do nothing.. (John 5:30). ..but the FATHER that DWELLETH IN ME (Divine nature), HE doeth the works (John 14:10)." As man, He even expressed His limited knowledge (Mark13:32); but as God, He knew all things (John 21:17). Compare the following titles which also portray the dual nature of Jesus Christ:
DIVINE Everlasting Father - Is. 9:6 Chief Shepherd - I Pet. 5:4 King of Kings - Rev. 17,14 Lord God - John 20:28 The Almighty - Rev. 1:8
HUMAN Son of Man - Luke 9:22 Lamb - I Pet. 1:19 Servant - Phil. 2:7 High Priest - Heb. 2:17
Mediator - I Tim. 2:5

Since the Bible teaches us that Jesus is in bodily form now (Col. 2:9),
it does not say NOWscripture says Col 2:9For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. All of the fullness of the Godhead dwelt in Him, Jhn 1:14: And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. The question may be asked, "Is Jesus in the Godhead, or is the Godhead in Jesus?" If the Godhead is in Jesus, there can only be one Person. The Bible clearly states, "For IN HIM (Christ) DWELLETH all the FULLNESS OF THE GODHEAD BODILY. And ye are COMPLETE IN HIM, which is the HEAD OF ALL PRINCIPALITY AND POWER." Col. 2:9, 10. So there is only ONE PERSON in which the Godhead is manifested, because the GODHEAD IS IN JESUS!

then how does the Oneness Pentecostal person maintain that God is in the form of the Holy Spirit? Also, when Jesus returns, will He return in His body? Will God's form then revert to the form of the Son at a later date?

If God is only one person, why did Jesus say in John 14:23, "If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him." If God is only one person, why does Jesus say, "we"?

(Matt Slick)

King David saw 2 Persons
Psa. 110:1 A Psalm of David. The Lord says to my Lord: "Sit at My right hand, Until I make Thine enemies a footstool for Thy feet."

**End quotes.

What was Jesus talking about in John 17:5 ..And now, O Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was. ???

I mean even Muslims and Jehovah's Witnesses can prove to any of Oneness pentecostals that Jesus is NOT the Father. While doing so they are TRYING to prove Jesus is NOT God, but what they fail to see is that Jesus IS indeed God and they are just making distinctions between the Son and the Father.

I really am interested in seeing some of the answers, now you don't have to answer them all but I'd like to see what someone who is in favor of Oneness has to say. I am truely interested because I am seeking God and truth more and more everyday so if you can help me understand by answering these questions/ and not ignoring the questions and just posting some sermon on Oneness. I would appreciate it. Thank you for your time and help.. God bless you.

ok now for the third part of the answers to your questions

[MahogonySnail]

The funny thing is he's quoting from christian apologists.

The Oneness believers just haven't got it into their heads yet that they aren't the pillar of truth but stand aloof from the majority of christians.

Originally Posted by Young_Gideon

Hey I have seen quite a lot of theads on the topic lately so I figure I'd ask these people some questions. There are quite a lot of questions so I didn't want to "spam" anyones thread. Anyway there is a list of apologists I've been looking at lately and here are some quotes/questions from them.
*note all below are quotes - but I'd like to actually see some of the Oneness people's real responses from the heart.*

1) The Oneness position cannot explain logically or Biblically the clear references to the pre-existence and Creatorship of the Son such as Colossians 1, Hebrews 1 and John 1.
2) This position fails to demonstrate any kind of identification of Jesus Christ as the Father, and ignores or inadequately explains the many references that demonstrate the personal distinctions of Father and Son.
3) This position relies heavily on assumed and unproven presuppositions, such as the uni-personality of Yahweh. These writers tend to be very selective in their choice of facts, which can also be seen in their easy rejection of textual evidence that contradicts their position
4) The Christological formulation of the Oneness position is untenable and without Scriptural support. There is no evidence that Jesus was two persons, nor that the two "natures" communicated with one another.
5) The understanding of the Logos given in Scripture is totally lacking in the Oneness perspective. The clear personal nature of the Logos must be sacrificed to maintain the system.

Philippians 2:
5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
That is the KJV, let's see if the NASB makes it a bit more clear...
5 Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus,
6 who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped,
7 but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men.

"The key verb is "emptied". The possession of equality took place BEFORE the emptying. "Taking" the form of a servant descrbies the means of the "emptying," as does "being made in the likeness of men." Jesus was "made in the likeness of men" at the Incarnation.
Therefore, this passage teaches the deity of Christ ("form of God"), and as well as the distinct personhood of the Son prior to the Incarnation, Just as in John 1:1 and 17:5, the text is inarguable: the Son, as the Son, is eternal.
The Logos, the Word, eternally existed as God, and was in fellowship with the Father. (John 1:1)
The Son shared glory with the Father before the world existed. (John 17:5)
Prior to the Incarnation, the Son was divine and active. (Phil 2:5-7)"

"We see, then, the meaning of the oneness of God passages in the OT: They refer to a onenesss of BEING, not oneness of PERSON
They are in "tri" and "unity."

(Dr. James White.)



Oneness theology teaches that God was in the mode of the Father in the Old Testament. God was seen in the OT (not as a vision or a dream or an angel in the following verses: Exo. 6:2-3; Gen. 19:24; Num. 12:6-. But, Jesus said no one has seen the Father (John 6:46). If they were seeing God Almighty (Exo. 6:2-3) but it wasn't the Father, then who was it?

If Jesus' will and the Father's will were identical, then why did Jesus express the desire to escape the cup but resigns Himself not to His own will, but the will of the Father?

Was Jesus praying to Himself in the Garden of Gethsemane?

If Jesus was praying to the divine side of Himself, then isn't He still praying to Himself?

Why was Jesus not saying, "Not My will, but MY will be done?" if there is only one person and one will involved when He was praying in Luke 22:42 & Matt. 26:39.

Since the Bible teaches us that Jesus is in bodily form now (Col. 2:9), then how does the Oneness Pentecostal person maintain that God is in the form of the Holy Spirit?
God IS the Holy Spirit!
Gen 1:2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness [was] upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
Job 26:13 By his spirit he hath garnished the heavens; his hand hath formed the crooked serpent.
Job 33:4 The Spirit of God hath made me, and the breath of the Almighty hath given me life.
Isa 40:13 Who hath directed the Spirit of the LORD, or [being] his counsellor hath taught him?
John 4:24 God [is] a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship [him] in spirit and in truth.
Jesus is the Holy Ghost/Comforter
Mat 28:20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, [even] unto the end of the world. Amen.
Jhn 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
Jhn 14:17 [Even] the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
Jhn 14:18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.
Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
Rom 8:10 And if Christ [be] in you, the body [is] dead because of sin; but the Spirit [is] life because of righteousness.
Rom 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
Also, when Jesus returns, will He return in His body? Will God's form then revert to the form of the Son at a later date? No. Jesus will return in His Glorified Body:
Dan 7:9 I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment [was] white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne [was like] the fiery flame, [and] his wheels [as] burning fire. Rev 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they [also] which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen. Rev 1:8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty. Rev 1:9 I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ. Rev 1:10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet, Rev 1:11 Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send [it] unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea. Rev 1:12 And I turned to see the voice that spake with me. And being turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks; Rev 1:13 And in the midst of the seven candlesticks [one] like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle. Rev 1:14 His head and [his] hairs [were] white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes [were] as a flame of fire; Rev 1:15 And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters. Rev 1:16 And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance [was] as the sun shineth in his strength. Rev 1:17 And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last: Rev 1:18 I [am] he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.
If God is only one person, why did Jesus say in John 14:23, "If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him." If God is only one person, why does Jesus say, "we"?
The WE is our Eternal Father and His Word
Jhn 14:7If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him. Jhn 14:8Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us. Jhn 14:9Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou [then], Shew us the Father? Jhn 14:10Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works. Jhn 14:11Believe me that I [am] in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake. Jhn 14:12Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater [works] than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father. Jhn 14:13And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. Jhn 14:14If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do [it]. Jhn 14:15If ye love me, keep my commandments. Jhn 14:16And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; Jhn 14:17[Even] the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you. Jhn 14:18I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you. Jhn 14:19Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also. Jhn 14:20At that day ye shall know that I [am] in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you. Jhn 14:21He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him. Jhn 14:22Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world? Jhn 14:23Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

(Matt Slick)

King David saw 2 Persons
Psa. 110:1 A Psalm of David. The Lord says to my Lord: "Sit at My right hand, Until I make Thine enemies a footstool for Thy feet."

**End quotes.

What was Jesus talking about in John 17:5 ..And now, O Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was. ???

I mean even Muslims and Jehovah's Witnesses can prove to any of Oneness pentecostals that Jesus is NOT the Father. While doing so they are TRYING to prove Jesus is NOT God, but what they fail to see is that Jesus IS indeed God and they are just making distinctions between the Son and the Father.

I really am interested in seeing some of the answers, now you don't have to answer them all but I'd like to see what someone who is in favor of Oneness has to say. I am truely interested because I am seeking God and truth more and more everyday so if you can help me understand by answering these questions/ and not ignoring the questions and just posting some sermon on Oneness. I would appreciate it. Thank you for your time and help.. God bless you.

ok, thank you so much this has been a very fun and intersting study God bless you and yours

Okay thanks for all the help guys I appreciate it.

[watchmen]

Originally Posted by Young_Gideon

Okay thanks for all the help guys I appreciate it.

Your welcome Y_G, any time my friend.

Originally Posted by MahogonySnail

The funny thing is he's quoting from christian apologists.

The Oneness believers just haven't got it into their heads yet that they aren't the pillar of truth but stand aloof from the majority of christians.

im not quoting from no one most 98 percent of it is the MIGHTY WORD OF GOD!!

[watchmen]

Originally Posted by stillearning

im not quoting from no one most 98 percent of it is the MIGHTY WORD OF GOD!!

That is the problem, she cares more about Christian apologetics, than what the word of God actually teaches. Even worse anyone that doesn't bow to her beliefs are heretics. Sad, and very prideful.

James 4:6 But he giveth more grace. Wherefore he saith, God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble.

A little humility goes a long was mahogony

[MahogonySnail]

You don't know the real meaning of "Christian apologetics" do you guys?

I find it amusing that young_gideon was quoting from Christian apologists and that you disagree with them. They're the same sorts of websites that refute the false doctrines of JW's, Mormons, Church of God's, Christadelphians, Pastafarians or whatever. Let me say, you may as well be Jehovah's Witnesses. The fact they aren't classed as "christian" is because they hold onto heretical doctrines such as rejection of the Trinity, other than that, their beliefs are fairly similar and based on the bible too.

You are heretics, all you Oneness, modalist and whatever else. Heresy is proposing some unorthodox change to an established system of belief, especially a religion, that conflicts with the previously established opinion.

It's very prideful of you watchmen, a man only saved 6 years? To be telling us you are right and everyone else is wrong, and the past 1700 yeares of church history is wrong. The Word of God does not teach your doctrine, just as it does not teach a pre-tribulation rapture.

Here's a challenge for you Oneness believers: find one reliable and trustworthy non-Oneness pentecostsal Christian apologetics website that promotes Oneness doctrine and refutes the Trinity.

You know ,Oneness pentecostals also believe those heresies that you must speak in tongues to be saved - I think. Don't be mistaken to think you can believe one false doctrine and have the rest of your theology right - one false doctrine leads to another, and God's nature is a very fundamental one.

[MahogonySnail]

While you're at it you can find me one protestant reformer who believed in Oneness and not the Trinity.

If you can't, hopefully that shows how far you've strayed from sound doctrine, and how aloof you stand from mainstream protestant Christianity. Unless you want to try and argue you are descended from one of those mysterious christian sects or "remnants" that are alleged to have "always existed" since bible times, as many other groups falsely claim.

[quote]

Originally Posted by MahogonySnail

While you're at it you can find me one protestant reformer who believed in Oneness and not the Trinity.

I would consider that evidence for the case of true monotheism (or 'Oneness' as you call it).

The result of the work of the Protestant 'Reformers' is clearly evident today; - a bloody and corrupt mess.

[MahogonySnail]

....not to mention the fact that the reformer's formers, also believed in the Trinity. You'd think you would even accept such a "false" doctrine even to avoid disunity, but it seems the Oneness believers in here are keen on promoting disunity with mainstream christianity for the sake of their own self-revelations and personal private bible interpretation. Rather sad really.

[1still_waters]

I still don't get how, if the Son IS the Father, and the Son said only the Father knows when the Son will come back.....Well I don't even have to spell out those obvious questions!

[iraasuup]

HAHAHA! I have always wondered the same thing myself Stilly, but then I realise maybe there's some things I'm just not meant to understand...and I carry on with thinking about things I do understand, like shoes...

[watchmen]

Originally Posted by MahogonySnail
While you're at it you can find me one protestant reformer who believed in Oneness and not the Trinity.

Originally Posted by Cup-of-Ruin

I would consider that evidence for the case of true monotheism (or 'Oneness' as you call it).

The result of the work of the Protestant 'Reformers' is clearly evident today; - a bloody and corrupt mess.

I agree the reformation was necesarry to get the church from the catholics, but the refermers were not your best example of Christianity or sound doctrine.

[watchmen]

Originally Posted by 1still_waters

I still don't get how, if the Son IS the Father, and the Son said only the Father knows when the Son will come back.....Well I don't even have to spell out those obvious questions!

Do you really think Jesus still this day does not know the day of His return? The man that walked this earth (the Son) didn't know, the day or hour of His return.