It is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle...

....than for a rich man to get into heaven.

I've heard that this passage is a mistranslation and would like clarification from those who have studied more than I. What I heard is that the hebrew (or maybe Greek?) word for "camel" is the same as the hebrew word for "coarse thread". Certainly the sentence would make more sense if it read "It is easier for a coarse thread to pass through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to get into heaven." It would also give more hope to the rich, if that were the case, for every now and then a coarse thread does go through. If the rich did have even a glimmer of hope, wouldn't they be more likely to TRY. If they only have as much chance of getting into heaven as a camel has of going through the eye of a needle...i.e.-none... why would they even bother? If their only choice is to give up their riches for a God they may not know well, well....human nature would dictate that they say "to heck with it", keep their money, and not concern themselves with learning about compassion, or God, or anything else divine.

If this is even possibly a mistranslation, why is it never mentioned in any footnotes or subtexts in bibles today? Is it just kept that way for tradition's sake? Are there other possible mistranslations out there? Thanks in advance to all who contribute. I'm a new member and so glad I found this site! I'm looking forward to sharing, learning, and getting answers to questions that have plagued me for years!

[Ryan1976]

Originally Posted by seeker710

....than for a rich man to get into heaven.

I've heard that this passage is a mistranslation and would like clarification from those who have studied more than I. What I heard is that the hebrew (or maybe Greek?) word for "camel" is the same as the hebrew word for "coarse thread". Certainly the sentence would make more sense if it read "It is easier for a coarse thread to pass through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to get into heaven." It would also give more hope to the rich, if that were the case, for every now and then a coarse thread does go through. If the rich did have even a glimmer of hope, wouldn't they be more likely to TRY. If they only have as much chance of getting into heaven as a camel has of going through the eye of a needle...i.e.-none... why would they even bother? If their only choice is to give up their riches for a God they may not know well, well....human nature would dictate that they say "to heck with it", keep their money, and not concern themselves with learning about compassion, or God, or anything else divine.

If this is even possibly a mistranslation, why is it never mentioned in any footnotes or subtexts in bibles today? Is it just kept that way for tradition's sake? Are there other possible mistranslations out there? Thanks in advance to all who contribute. I'm a new member and so glad I found this site! I'm looking forward to sharing, learning, and getting answers to questions that have plagued me for years!

It's not impossible for a "rich" man to enter the Kingdom but much harder than a poor person. If you were suddenly shipwrecked on an island you'd be right where God wants you - on your face in prayer, relying solely on Him and thanking Him for every shred of anything that might be given to help sustain you no matter how small the "comfort". However, picture a rich man that truly lives as if he has nothing and lowering himself to consider himself the least and he might just live a Christian life.

Jesus wasn't playing when he said, Blessed are the poor and Blessed are the poor in Spirit.

1. At least 80% of humanity lives on less than $10 a day.Source 1
2. More than 80 percent of the world’s population lives in countries where income differentials are widening.Source 2
3. The poorest 40 percent of the world’s population accounts for 5 percent of global income. The richest 20 percent accounts for three-quarters of world income.Source 3
4. According to UNICEF, 25,000 children die each day due to poverty. And they “die quietly in some of the poorest villages on earth, far removed from the scrutiny and the conscience of the world. Being meek and weak in life makes these dying multitudes even more invisible in death.”Source 4
5. Around 27-28 percent of all children in developing countries are estimated to be underweight or stunted. The two regions that account for the bulk of the deficit are South Asia and sub-Saharan Africa.
   If current trends continue, the Millennium Development Goals target of halving the proportion of underweight children will be missed by 30 million children, largely because of slow progress in Southern Asia and sub-Saharan Africa.Source 5
6. Based on enrolment data, about 72 million children of primary school age in the developing world were not in school in 2005; 57 per cent of them were girls. And these are regarded as optimisitic numbers.Source 6
7. Nearly a billion people entered the 21st century unable to read a book or sign their names.Source 7
8. Less than one per cent of what the world spent every year on weapons was needed to put every child into school by the year 2000 and yet it didn’t happen.Source 8
9. Infectious diseases continue to blight the lives of the poor across the world. An estimated 40 million people are living with HIV/AIDS, with 3 million deaths in 2004. Every year there are 350–500 million cases of malaria, with 1 million fatalities: Africa accounts for 90 percent of malarial deaths and African children account for over 80 percent of malaria victims worldwide.Source 9
10. Water problems affect half of humanity:
    
    • Some 1.1 billion people in developing countries have inadequate access to water, and 2.6 billion lack basic sanitation.
    • Almost two in three people lacking access to clean water survive on less than $2 a day, with one in three living on less than $1 a day.
    • More than 660 million people without sanitation live on less than $2 a day, and more than 385 million on less than $1 a day.
    • Access to piped water into the household averages about 85% for the wealthiest 20% of the population, compared with 25% for the poorest 20%.
    • 1.8 billion people who have access to a water source within 1 kilometre, but not in their house or yard, consume around 20 litres per day. In the United Kingdom the average person uses more than 50 litres of water a day flushing toilets (where average daily water usage is about 150 liters a day. The highest average water use in the world is in the US, at 600 liters day.)
    • Some 1.8 million child deaths each year as a result of diarrhoea
    • The loss of 443 million school days each year from water-related illness.
    • Close to half of all people in developing countries suffering at any given time from a health problem caused by water and sanitation deficits.
    • Millions of women spending several hours a day collecting water.
    • To these human costs can be added the massive economic waste associated with the water and sanitation deficit.… The costs associated with health spending, productivity losses and labour diversions … are greatest in some of the poorest countries. Sub-Saharan Africa loses about 5% of GDP, or some $28.4 billion annually, a figure that exceeds total aid flows and debt relief to the region in 2003.Source 10
11. Number of children in the world2.2 billionNumber in poverty1 billion (every second child)Shelter, safe water and healthFor the 1.9 billion children from the developing world, there are:
    
    • 640 million without adequate shelter (1 in 3)
    • 400 million with no access to safe water (1 in 5)
    • 270 million with no access to health services (1 in 7)
    Children out of education worldwide121 millionSurvival for childrenWorldwide,
    
    • 10.6 million died in 2003 before they reached the age of 5 (same as children population in France, Germany, Greece and Italy)
    • 1.4 million die each year from lack of access to safe drinking water and adequate sanitation
    Health of childrenWorldwide,
    
    • 2.2 million children die each year because they are not immunized
    • 15 million children orphaned due to HIV/AIDS (similar to the total children population in Germany or United Kingdom)
    Source 11
12. Rural areas account for three in every four people living on less than US$1 a day and a similar share of the world population suffering from malnutrition. However, urbanization is not synonymous with human progress. Urban slum growth is outpacing urban growth by a wide margin.Source 12
13. Approximately half the world’s population now live in cities and towns. In 2005, one out of three urban dwellers (approximately 1 billion people) was living in slum conditions.Source 13
14. In developing countries some 2.5 billion people are forced to rely on biomass—fuelwood, charcoal and animal dung—to meet their energy needs for cooking. In sub-Saharan Africa, over 80 percent of the population depends on traditional biomass for cooking, as do over half of the populations of India and China.Source 14
15. Indoor air pollution resulting from the use of solid fuels [by poorer segments of society] is a major killer. It claims the lives of 1.5 million people each year, more than half of them below the age of five: that is 4000 deaths a day. To put this number in context, it exceeds total deaths from malaria and rivals the number of deaths from tuberculosis.Source 15
16. In 2005, the wealthiest 20% of the world accounted for 76.6% of total private consumption. The poorest fifth just 1.5%:

The poorest 10% accounted for just 0.5% and the wealthiest 10% accounted for 59% of all the consumption:

1.6 billion people — a quarter of humanity — live without electricity:

1. The GDP (Gross Domestic Product) of the 41 Heavily Indebted Poor Countries (567 million people) is less than the wealth of the world’s 7 richest people combined.Source 18
2. World gross domestic product (world population approximately 6.5 billion) in 2006 was $48.2 trillion in 2006.
   
   • The world’s wealthiest countries (approximately 1 billion people) accounted for $36.6 trillion dollars (76%).
   • The world’s billionaires — just 497 people (approximately 0.000008% of the world’s population) — were worth $3.5 trillion (over 7% of world GDP).
   • Low income countries (2.4 billion people) accounted for just $1.6 trillion of GDP (3.3%)
   • Middle income countries (3 billion people) made up the rest of GDP at just over $10 trillion (20.7%).Source 19
3. The world’s low income countries (2.4 billion people) account for just 2.4% of world exportsSource 20
4. The total wealth of the top 8.3 million people around the world “rose 8.2 percent to $30.8 trillion in 2004, giving them control of nearly a quarter of the world’s financial assets.”
   In other words, about 0.13% of the world’s population controlled 25% of the world’s financial assets in 2004.Source 21
5. For every $1 in aid a developing country receives, over $25 is spent on debt repayment.Source 22
6. 51 percent of the world’s 100 hundred wealthiest bodies are corporations.Source 23
7. The wealthiest nation on Earth has the widest gap between rich and poor of any industrialized nation.Source 24
8. The poorer the country, the more likely it is that debt repayments are being extracted directly from people who neither contracted the loans nor received any of the money.Source 25
9. In 1960, the 20% of the world’s people in the richest countries had 30 times the income of the poorest 20% — in 1997, 74 times as much.Source 26
10. An analysis of long-term trends shows the distance between the richest and poorest countries was about:
    
    • 3 to 1 in 1820
    • 11 to 1 in 1913
    • 35 to 1 in 1950
    • 44 to 1 in 1973
    • 72 to 1 in 1992Source 27
11. “Approximately 790 million people in the developing world are still chronically undernourished, almost two-thirds of whom reside in Asia and the Pacific.”Source 28
12. For economic growth and almost all of the other indicators, the last 20 years [of the current form of globalization, from 1980 - 2000] have shown a very clear decline in progress as compared with the previous two decades [1960 - 1980]. For each indicator, countries were divided into five roughly equal groups, according to what level the countries had achieved by the start of the period (1960 or 1980). Among the findings:
    
    • Growth: The fall in economic growth rates was most pronounced and across the board for all groups or countries.
    • Life Expectancy: Progress in life expectancy was also reduced for 4 out of the 5 groups of countries, with the exception of the highest group (life expectancy 69-76 years).
    • Infant and Child Mortality: Progress in reducing infant mortality was also considerably slower during the period of globalization (1980-1998) than over the previous two decades.
    • Education and literacy: Progress in education also slowed during the period of globalization.Source 29
13. A mere 12 percent of the world’s population uses 85 percent of its water, and these 12 percent do not live in the Third World.Source 30

From the website: http://www.globalissues.org/article/...acts-and-stats

[Ryan1976]

Forgot one:

Almost half the world — over three billion people — live on less than $2.50 a day.


I think I have $2.50 sitting around in the couch and under the car seat....

If you have nothing, there isn't much standing between you and Him.

Matthew 16:25
For whoever wants to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for me will find it.

Luke 9:24
For whoever wants to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for me will save it.

John 12:25
The man who loves his life will lose it, while the man who hates his life in this world will keep it for eternal life.

Luke 1:53
He has filled the hungry with good things but has sent the rich away empty.

Luke 6:24
"But woe to you who are rich, for you have already received your comfort.

Luke 8:14
The seed that fell among thorns stands for those who hear, but as they go on their way they are choked by life's worries, riches and pleasures, and they do not mature.

Luke 12:21
"This is how it will be with anyone who stores up things for himself but is not rich toward God."

Luke 16:22
"The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried.

2 Corinthians 6:10
sorrowful, yet always rejoicing; poor, yet making many rich; having nothing, and yet possessing everything.

1 Timothy 6:9
People who want to get rich fall into temptation and a trap and into many foolish and harmful desires that plunge men into ruin and destruction.

James 1:10
But the one who is rich should take pride in his low position, because he will pass away like a wild flower.

James 2:5
Listen, my dear brothers: Has not God chosen those who are poor in the eyes of the world to be rich in faith and to inherit the kingdom he promised those who love him?

James 5:1
[ Warning to Rich Oppressors ] Now listen, you rich people, weep and wail because of the misery that is coming upon you.

Revelation 3:17
You say, 'I am rich; I have acquired wealth and do not need a thing.' But you do not realize that you are wretched, pitiful, poor, blind and naked.

The Widow's Offering

41Jesus sat down opposite the place where the offerings were put and watched the crowd putting their money into the temple treasury. Many rich people threw in large amounts. 42But a poor widow came and put in two very small copper coins,[j]worth only a fraction of a penny.[k] 43Calling his disciples to him, Jesus said, "I tell you the truth, this poor widow has put more into the treasury than all the others. 44They all gave out of their wealth; but she, out of her poverty, put in everything—all she had to live on."






They can mess with the translation of the camel all they want but you might want to ask them if the Greek for the above verses will truly help them any. They can "spiritualize" all the above verses, reduce the context to, "that just means we should put God first, make sure you put a Jesus fishy on the bumper of your new Hummer". But in the end, just like the leper outside the gates, they'll stand before the dread judgment seat of Christ and give an account.



*shrug


Hope you aren't messing about with those prosperity gospel folks... dangerous seeds their sewing.







God bless

[MahogonySnail]

It is impossible for the rich man to be saved because he loves money and greed too much to come to Christ. That's all it is saying. It is not about how much money a person has, but how much trust they put in worldly riches - as shown by their unwillingness to give them up when Christ asked them to.

Besides, Jesus and His family were pretty well off as were most of his disciples they weren't exactly begging the streets of Galilee. Peter owned his own house. Carpentry and fishing were pretty good middle class occupations. They carried a money bag with them they would have had to get that money from somewhere.

Most christians in the west all of us in this forum, would be classed as "rich" according to the bible standards. Even the homeless guy on the street in one of our cities is better off than many in other countries.

Ryan1976, thanks for your input. No, I'm not messing with any prosperity gospel folks. I do have a couple thoughts, though.

If a rich man were suddenly shipwrecked on a deserted island, he would in that instant no longer be rich, but just a man. Which is certainly where God would want him to be. It is all any of us are, and wealth without God, without compassion, without sypmathy or humility, interferes with our ability to recognize this until it's too late. I find that there are many wealthy people who have a false sense of superiority and entitlement that is repulsive. There are so many riches these people know nothing of. Riches of an irrational, illogical, financially unsound, sacrificial, steadfast no matter the circumstances, and TRUELY LOVING nature that money just can't buy.... These are things that gives one's soul real security and a sense of belonging.

But I don't think being rich doesn't necessarily exclude one from entering heaven. Job was quite rich, as were many others named in the bible.... The difference being that God was their Lord. They were willing to hear God's message and incorporate it in their daily lives... To take it into their being and live it... That was true then, and it's true now. There were wealthy people who did it then, and wealthy people who do it now.

I'm not trying to play with the words or twist the meaning. My concern is that someone else did a long time ago. (There are plenty of examples of this occuring throughout the millenium.) What was the original word? What was the original message? What is the oldest document we can trace it back to? If the original meaning was "coarse hair", then it means that the wealthy DO have a chance of going to heaven. If they will open their hearts to God's commandments and use their money, and all else they have to serve him. If the original meaning was "camel", then, I'm sorry, a camel cannot and will never fit through the eye of a needle, and a rich man will never go to heaven.

Another thought is that wealth is a relational, relative thing. The man on the deserted island is not rich anymore because he is alone. Wealth and poverty can only occur in communities. In comparing what one man has with what another man doesn't have. The question is regarding how much of what you have you are willing to give to God, regardless of whether one has much or little. But this, to me, is not what the message in the "camel passage" is saying. This is why I question whether it might have been mistranslated, intentionally or not, ages ago.

MahoganySnail, I get what you're saying about some of Christ's followers being well off. However, I don't think Christ himself came from a wealthy family. My studies have found that the most recent understanding of his human father's trade should be best translated not as "carpenter", but more like "manual laborer", or "jack of all trades". They did a little bit of everything. Whatever they could do to get by. To make ends meet. And they lived in a very small town, with very little weath in the town itself. Hence the passage "Can anything good come from Nazareth?" And we must also remember that many of Christ's followers have been, and continue to be extremely poor.... Again... wealth is a relative, relational thing... It's more a matter of what one is willing to DO with their wealth...

[MahogonySnail]

That's interesting seeker710 thanks for that information. I've always assumed carpenter means carpenter.

I agree it's about what they do with their wealth.

I remember an early church writing by someone I forget, Origen? Tertullian? that talked about greed I think it was. A poor man who is greedy is worse than a rich man who is not greedy. Whether they are rich or poor has nothing to do with the attitude of their heart.

[Thaddaeus]

I have been told that there was a entrance way into to city where they were at Jerusalem( I think) that was called the eye of a needle. that camels would have to get on their knees and crawl through this entrance. But I just take it that He is trying to say that if you love money then it is impossible for you to enter in , You can't have two masters , but then a couple of verses under that one about the camel it says that with man this is impossible but with God all things are possible

[Ryan1976]

But I don't think being rich doesn't necessarily exclude one from entering heaven. Job was quite rich, as were many others named in the bible.... The difference being that God was their Lord. They were willing to hear God's message and incorporate it in their daily lives... To take it into their being and live it... That was true then, and it's true now. There were wealthy people who did it then, and wealthy people who do it now.

Totally agree. It's not impossible for a rich man to enter the Kingdom because through God, all things are possible. It's just that being rich makes makes it much harder and the impression our Lord left is that the rich are called to become poor, at the very least, in spirit.

I'm not trying to play with the words or twist the meaning. My concern is that someone else did a long time ago. (There are plenty of examples of this occuring throughout the millenium.) What was the original word? What was the original message? What is the oldest document we can trace it back to? If the original meaning was "coarse hair", then it means that the wealthy DO have a chance of going to heaven. If they will open their hearts to God's commandments and use their money, and all else they have to serve him. If the original meaning was "camel", then, I'm sorry, a camel cannot and will never fit through the eye of a needle, and a rich man will never go to heaven.

Well, our blessed Lord and Savior was always illustrating things for us in very animated and strikingly cartoony ways. Think of the dust in your brothers eye line. Only to have plank! in your own.

I don't think Jesus was saying that it was impossible for a rich man to enter the Kingdom but emphasizing how difficult it is for the rich man. If He tells you to thread a camel through the eye of a needle, you'd say that it's impossible. Still, like the mustard seed "to move mountains" (a jewish phrase that isn't literal but just emphasizes the nature of faith) the underscore is that through God ALL things are possible.

Another thought is that wealth is a relational, relative thing. The man on the deserted island is not rich anymore because he is alone. Wealth and poverty can only occur in communities. In comparing what one man has with what another man doesn't have. The question is regarding how much of what you have you are willing to give to God, regardless of whether one has much or little. But this, to me, is not what the message in the "camel passage" is saying. This is why I question whether it might have been mistranslated, intentionally or not, ages ago.

I don't think it was a mistranslation and if it is I doubt that it's been mistranslated on purpose. I don't think being rich is relative. I mean, either you have or you don't have. Just because you don't have a mansion and a helicopter like your neighbors doesn't mean that the fellow without the mansion and helicopter is poor. If you have a lot or even quite a bit or even comparatively little which is more than not much or nothing, you still have much to give to the Lord. I agree. We must give ALL to Him. It's unlikely that the three hundred dollar toaster we just bought for ourselves is FOR the Lord. It's unlikely that the satellite television subscription we just shelled out is FOR the Lord. It's unlikely that the eight hundred dollar pair of shoes is FOR the Lord. You know what I'm saying?

That stuff will most likely not pass into the next "life" but rather will go up in smoke, consumed by the moths.

What's the saying? When much is given, much is required.

[Graybeard]

I too have understood that "The eye of the needle" was in fact an entrance and because the way the camels were so loaded with merchandise and stuff, this made it extremely difficult for the camel to go through, I am also of the understanding that needles in those days did not have a hole in them as we know it today so that is why I do not believe that "the eye of a needle" was meant as a literal needle, it is referring to the entrance.

[watchmen]

Originally Posted by Graybeard

I too have understood that "The eye of the needle" was in fact an entrance and because the way the camels were so loaded with merchandise and stuff, this made it extremely difficult for the camel to go through, I am also of the understanding that needles in those days did not have a hole in them as we know it today so that is why I do not believe that "the eye of a needle" was meant as a literal needle, it is referring to the entrance.

Yes the eye of the needle was a gateway into a particular city, to which a camle could barely fit, and when it was stack with many possession as by someone with many possession or rich person it was vurtually impossible for the camlee to fit, but remember although it is impossible for a rich man to come to Christ on there own, that statement is followed by the statement that all things are possible with God. Let us also not forget that no one will come to Christ unless the Father draws us.

Hi Seeker

There is no mistranslation. Mark 10:25 says "It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God."

Then in verse 27, Jesus further clarifies this by saying, "With men it is impossible, but not with God: for with God all things are possible."

This statement in 27 would not be true if coarse thread were correct, because this might be difficult for man, but not impossible, as Jesus said. But then, he goes on to say, with God all things are possible, assuring us that yes, God can save the rich as well as the poor, if they will humble themselves enough to accept his gift. Unfortunately, many people who have great worldly wealth do not: they never take the time to see their need.

[markhelp]

The Aramaic reads, "rope" instead of camel.......[ I didn't write the Word of God so I am simply passing along information.]

Sometimes mistranslations occur. For instance, a verse says that Paul was a tentmaker. The accurate translation is that Paul was a saddle maker. In studying the Bible we must remember to also include studying Eastern culture; their mannerisms, customs, idioms, figures of speech. Paul would not be a tentmaker because in Eastern culture, that was a woman's job. Saddle making was a man's job.

[Slepsog4]

markhelp....

The NT was not written in Aramaic. Are you reading from the crackpot Lamsa? No reputable translation working from the original languages has ever rendered it "rope" or that Paul was a "saddle" maker.

[MaggieMye]

This link should help you understand thte metaphor that the verse refers to. In order to study, we must be diligent to understand God's word and look at the location and group of people to which the writings were written. His commandments are for ALL people at all times, but in order to understand some of the 'cliche's, we need to know the culture.
Magge

http://www.biblicalhebrew.com/nt/camelneedle.htm

was reading in Proverbs today, and this verse reminded me of the discussion here, so I figured I'd post it.

Proverbs 22:2 "The rich and poor meet together: the LORD is the maker of them all."

Take care

It's crossed my mind that perhaps Jesus was using a double entendre when he said this. (Something that has two meanings at the same time.) While there is no archaeological evidence yet found of an "eye of the needle" gate in ancient Jerusalem, it appears that there were such gates in other towns, or narrow mountain passages called by that name, and that this was a well known phrase at the time. That's meaning #1.

Meaning #2 could be a coarse thread made out of camel hair, like the threads used to make the clothes John the Baptist wore, going through an actual needle.

Either way, he seems to be saying that it's very difficult, but not impossible.....

[Slepsog4]

The is NO historical or archaeological evidence for a gate in the middle east anywhere ever called an eye of the needle. The language in the text is a sewing needle.

The suggestion of such guts the impact of Jesus' statement from the impossible to the difficult.