Divorce except for unchastity is adultery?
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It don't look like we are going to agree, but no problems.
I understand what you are saying about Λογου πορνειας (logos porneia)
In its strictest term, it is fornication (sex outside of marriage) but includes prostitution & actually used by God in regards to OT idolatry when His people fornicated with Idols (Outside the "marriage covenant" with Him.
Adultery is a little "forced" to be included in fornication (you: Λογου πορνειας ---> Can be reasonably translated to "On account of whoredom", ---> which would easily include adultery.) A little to far from the original meaning.
When Paul spoke in a few areas about the types of people that would not inherit the kingdom, adultery and fornication were separate on any such list he wrote down.
Why didn't Jesus say Adultery rather than fornication?
Look again: “I say to you,” he continued, “that everyone divorcing his wife, except on account of fornication, makes her a subject for adultery, and whoever marries a divorced woman commits adultery.” (Matt. 5:32)
In the bold writing above, the adultery had not yet happened, just fornication, the adultery is a possible consequence of the fornication if you read it.
But regardless, even the best commentaries such as Gill, Poole, Matthew Henry...etc cannot even agree, so we have both made out views clear now Bro
I understand what you are saying about Λογου πορνειας (logos porneia)
In its strictest term, it is fornication (sex outside of marriage) but includes prostitution & actually used by God in regards to OT idolatry when His people fornicated with Idols (Outside the "marriage covenant" with Him.
Adultery is a little "forced" to be included in fornication (you: Λογου πορνειας ---> Can be reasonably translated to "On account of whoredom", ---> which would easily include adultery.) A little to far from the original meaning.
When Paul spoke in a few areas about the types of people that would not inherit the kingdom, adultery and fornication were separate on any such list he wrote down.
Why didn't Jesus say Adultery rather than fornication?
Look again: “I say to you,” he continued, “that everyone divorcing his wife, except on account of fornication, makes her a subject for adultery, and whoever marries a divorced woman commits adultery.” (Matt. 5:32)
In the bold writing above, the adultery had not yet happened, just fornication, the adultery is a possible consequence of the fornication if you read it.
But regardless, even the best commentaries such as Gill, Poole, Matthew Henry...etc cannot even agree, so we have both made out views clear now Bro
Alright, no problems here either, I appreciate it. Have a good one!
God is not unreasonable. He commands and expects certain treatment of a man toward a woman and a woman toward a man which forms that "one flesh" bond.
Where one party abuses the other party and treats that party they abuse as though an enemy of their flesh, they have departed that "one flesh" bond of their own volition.
1 Corinthians 7:14 "For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband [and it works both ways just as here said]: else were your children unclean; but now are they holy.
15 But if the unbelieving [male or female] depart, let him [him or her] depart. A brother or a sister is not under bondage in such cases: but God hath called us to peace.
Please do not make God out to be unreasonable when he is not. The point of the scripture you have been discussing is when it is allowable for the innocent party to initiate the divorce by their own choice, which Jesus clearly said was a concession made out of the hardness of man's present heart condition. And that is why Jesus mentioned the concession being made out of the hard hardheartedness.
But in cases of abuse where one party has begun treating the other party as an enemy to their flesh, it only corrupts the children to not go the way the actions of the offending party clearly indicate they have gone already emotionally.
Learn love as God loves. That cannot be achieved by a rote rule of law as many are trying to interpret the verses being discussed. Jesus was in no way telling us to not let love do the final governing.
The situation under that Old Covenant system was that many men were putting their wives away through divorce for flimsy reasons that were really as hating their wives with no good cause. And that must be understood so as to properly apply what Jesus said.
Where one party abuses the other party and treats that party they abuse as though an enemy of their flesh, they have departed that "one flesh" bond of their own volition.
1 Corinthians 7:14 "For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband [and it works both ways just as here said]: else were your children unclean; but now are they holy.
15 But if the unbelieving [male or female] depart, let him [him or her] depart. A brother or a sister is not under bondage in such cases: but God hath called us to peace.
Please do not make God out to be unreasonable when he is not. The point of the scripture you have been discussing is when it is allowable for the innocent party to initiate the divorce by their own choice, which Jesus clearly said was a concession made out of the hardness of man's present heart condition. And that is why Jesus mentioned the concession being made out of the hard hardheartedness.
But in cases of abuse where one party has begun treating the other party as an enemy to their flesh, it only corrupts the children to not go the way the actions of the offending party clearly indicate they have gone already emotionally.
Learn love as God loves. That cannot be achieved by a rote rule of law as many are trying to interpret the verses being discussed. Jesus was in no way telling us to not let love do the final governing.
The situation under that Old Covenant system was that many men were putting their wives away through divorce for flimsy reasons that were really as hating their wives with no good cause. And that must be understood so as to properly apply what Jesus said.
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I did end up marrying the man I first had sex with, and my "dream love". But it turned out to be full of abuse of every kind. I left him in 2000, knowing I could never divorce him. He came back last week end to talk, and ended up hurting me all over again. I know I can never divorce him. And anyway, even if I did, I could never re-marry. So I am destined to be alone for the rest of my life. Which saddens me a great deal. yet as Joseph Prince always says "live in Grace" and that God forgives all sin. As you can see, I am very confused about all this. I wish I could sit down and ask Jesus to eplain all this to me and to tell me what to do, or what I can do to fix all this.
God know your desires, But you must let Him handle everything. If it is His desires for you to be single, then it will be done. But if it not what He desired, then it will be done also. But whatever he decides for what you are destin for, it will happen.
1 Corinthians 7:9
But if they cannot control themselves, they should marry, for it is better to marry than to burn with passion. ( Which means lusting)
Matthew 19:12
For there are eunuchs who were born that way, and there are eunuchs who have been made eunuchs by others—and there are those who choose to live like eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. The one who can accept this should accept it.”
1 Corinthians 7:9
But if they cannot control themselves, they should marry, for it is better to marry than to burn with passion. ( Which means lusting)
Matthew 19:12
For there are eunuchs who were born that way, and there are eunuchs who have been made eunuchs by others—and there are those who choose to live like eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. The one who can accept this should accept it.”
Job answered his false accusers that gave him harsh advice as to what God requires, saying, Job 13:4 "But ye are forgers of lies, ye are all physicians of no value." And that fits well the advice of the many that see God as so insistent regards this matter.
You are turning God's love into self-abuse by applying Jesus' words away from the context in which they were spoken. I'll speak again of that context in a moment.
But first, think about this: On one hand Paul shows us that God's love does not require the letter of that Old law because as Paul said, Colossians 2:20 "Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances,
21 (Touch not; taste not; handle not;
22 Which all are to perish with the using after the commandments and doctrines of men?
23 Which things have indeed a shew of wisdom in will worship, and [mock] humility, and neglecting of the body; not in any honour to the satisfying of the flesh."
God cares about our doing useless self punishing things of that Old Law but then you present him to not care about a bad marriage? No wonder the world thinks Christians are insane. Why can you not see that as Paul said, you have been called to peace? Divorcing is not what makes one's children unholy. Paul was specifically speaking of loose sexual conduct by those who had separated, and such loose conduct leads to having children with people to whom they are not married, thus making their children unholy. 1 Corinthians 7:7 "For I would that all men were even as I myself. But every man hath his proper gift of God, one after this manner, and another after that.
8 I say therefore to the unmarried and widows, It is good for them if they abide even as I.
9 But if they cannot contain, let them marry: for it is better to marry than to burn."
Now read the rest of what Paul spoke there at 1 Corinthians 7, bearing that in mind.
As to the context of Jesus' words there about fornication and adultery, take the two verses together which higlight the setting of what Jesus was speaking concerning: Matthew 5:31 "It hath been said, Whosoever shall put away his wife, let him give her a writing of divorcement:
32 But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery."
Jesus was speaking about the practice that had developed by tradition of easily disposing of a wife due to any mere discontentment with her.
It is wrong to stretch Jesus words beyond that because it paints a lie about Jesus that stumbles many from seeing Jesus' true love and desiring a relationship with him.
You are turning God's love into self-abuse by applying Jesus' words away from the context in which they were spoken. I'll speak again of that context in a moment.
But first, think about this: On one hand Paul shows us that God's love does not require the letter of that Old law because as Paul said, Colossians 2:20 "Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances,
21 (Touch not; taste not; handle not;
22 Which all are to perish with the using after the commandments and doctrines of men?
23 Which things have indeed a shew of wisdom in will worship, and [mock] humility, and neglecting of the body; not in any honour to the satisfying of the flesh."
God cares about our doing useless self punishing things of that Old Law but then you present him to not care about a bad marriage? No wonder the world thinks Christians are insane. Why can you not see that as Paul said, you have been called to peace? Divorcing is not what makes one's children unholy. Paul was specifically speaking of loose sexual conduct by those who had separated, and such loose conduct leads to having children with people to whom they are not married, thus making their children unholy. 1 Corinthians 7:7 "For I would that all men were even as I myself. But every man hath his proper gift of God, one after this manner, and another after that.
8 I say therefore to the unmarried and widows, It is good for them if they abide even as I.
9 But if they cannot contain, let them marry: for it is better to marry than to burn."
Now read the rest of what Paul spoke there at 1 Corinthians 7, bearing that in mind.
As to the context of Jesus' words there about fornication and adultery, take the two verses together which higlight the setting of what Jesus was speaking concerning: Matthew 5:31 "It hath been said, Whosoever shall put away his wife, let him give her a writing of divorcement:
32 But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery."
Jesus was speaking about the practice that had developed by tradition of easily disposing of a wife due to any mere discontentment with her.
It is wrong to stretch Jesus words beyond that because it paints a lie about Jesus that stumbles many from seeing Jesus' true love and desiring a relationship with him.
2
I had excepted God's plan for me was to be alone and was ok with it. And then out of the blue my husband calls and says he's coming back to talk, and I don't understand why it upset me so much this time. I can handle being alone, I've been alone for the past 10 years. I guess the remembering of how it felt to be held at night while I sleep made me more lonesome once I realized he only came back for more "head-games" and as he called it "being ok between husband and wife". (Could you explain 'eunuchs'? )
A eunich is one who does not have sexual activity at all. Jesus told us that some are born that way naturally but others are able to kill that sexual urge and abstain from the physical bond of marriage so that they are free to dedicate more of their self to Christ and have more time to dedicate to helping to build and govern the church of God.
That is what Paul meant here, Corinthians 7:7 "For I would that all men were even as I myself. But every man hath his proper gift of God, one after this manner, and another after that.
8 I say therefore to the unmarried and widows, It is good for them if they abide even as I.
9 But if they cannot contain, let them marry: for it is better to marry than to burn."
1 Corinthians 7:28 "But and if thou marry, thou hast not sinned; and if a virgin marry, she hath not sinned. Nevertheless such shall have trouble in the flesh: but I spare you."
That is what Paul meant here, Corinthians 7:7 "For I would that all men were even as I myself. But every man hath his proper gift of God, one after this manner, and another after that.
8 I say therefore to the unmarried and widows, It is good for them if they abide even as I.
9 But if they cannot contain, let them marry: for it is better to marry than to burn."
1 Corinthians 7:28 "But and if thou marry, thou hast not sinned; and if a virgin marry, she hath not sinned. Nevertheless such shall have trouble in the flesh: but I spare you."
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That was a difficult one for me but I have finally mastered it myself.
Many do not know that urge can be deadened in them if they really want it to be deadened and so they are prey to their lusts by it and then rationalize it as but natural. Worldly psychologists help them right along to believe that using the evolution theme that it is an innate compulsion to propagate the species.
But of course that is why Adam and Eve waited so long to have children. I mean that sarcastically. Because they had an uncontrollable natural urge to propagate the species. LOL.
I remember the days when I used to be able to lie to myself that way so that I could tell myself that God understood if I engaged in sex though not married. I rationalized, God knows it is natural as he made me that way. And so I rationalized, God understands and probably really only expects that I feel that I really love and will eventually marry the one with whom I have sex.
Hogwash!!! I was telling myself lies to justify the very lusts God condemns.
It comes down really to how much we love God and his righteousness as compared to how much we love the morsals of sin we wish to hold onto as special.
Many do not know that urge can be deadened in them if they really want it to be deadened and so they are prey to their lusts by it and then rationalize it as but natural. Worldly psychologists help them right along to believe that using the evolution theme that it is an innate compulsion to propagate the species.
But of course that is why Adam and Eve waited so long to have children. I mean that sarcastically. Because they had an uncontrollable natural urge to propagate the species. LOL.
I remember the days when I used to be able to lie to myself that way so that I could tell myself that God understood if I engaged in sex though not married. I rationalized, God knows it is natural as he made me that way. And so I rationalized, God understands and probably really only expects that I feel that I really love and will eventually marry the one with whom I have sex.
Hogwash!!! I was telling myself lies to justify the very lusts God condemns.
It comes down really to how much we love God and his righteousness as compared to how much we love the morsals of sin we wish to hold onto as special.
It appears to be a difficult passage but if one compare scriptures with scriptures, it becomes pretty clear. The scriptures are in perfect harmony.
It is widely accepted that the book of Matthew was written to the Jews. The traditional Jewish wedding is a two-step process: the betrothal period, erusin, and the officiating of the marriage, nissuin. The betrothed couples were regarded as husband and wife even before they were married that's why Joseph was said to be Mary's husband. As per Jesus' statement during this period of betrothal divorce is permitted for fornication contrary to what the Pharisees were taught (that divorce was permitted during marriage) thus in Matthew 19:1-10, His strict regulation against divorce during a marriage astonished them that His disciples said it is better for one to stay unmarried.
Joseph would have been permitted to divorce his betrothed wife when he found that she was with a child prior to their marriage, but if they were married divorce would not have been lawful; it is only death that can dissolve the legitimate marriage (see Matt 19:6, Rom 7:2-3).
Matt 1:18-19 (KJV)
18 Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost.
19 Then Joseph her husband, being a just man, and not willing to make her a publick example, was minded to put her away privily.
Matt 1:18-19 (ESV)
18 Now the birth of Jesus Christ took place in this way. When his mother Mary had been betrothed to Joseph, before they came together she was found to be with child from the Holy Spirit.
19 And her husband Joseph, being a just man and unwilling to put her to shame, resolved to divorce her quietly.
That is what Jesus was alluding to - the only grounds for divorce is fornication (porneia G4202) during the engagement period, not adultery (moichaō G3429) in marriage.
Next, let's examine Paul's writings...
1 Cor 7:10-11 (KJV)
10 And unto the married I command, yet not I, but the Lord, Let not the wife depart from her husband:
11 But and if she depart, let her remain unmarried, or be reconciled to her husband: and let not the husband put away his wife.
1 Cor 7:10-11 (ESV)
10 To the married I give this charge (not I, but the Lord): the wife should not separate from her husband
11 (but if she does, she should remain unmarried or else be reconciled to her husband), and the husband should not divorce his wife.
Now one must note that "depart" has a different connotation from "put away". Departure is temporary separation kind of like the couple are on "time-out" but they are still legally married, however with "put away" legal documents have been signed and divorce has been completed (Paul did not advocate that). The wife should remain with her husband if they are having marital issues however if she does separate on a temporary basis she should remain unmarried (do not marry another man otherwise it is adultery) or she should reconcile with her husband.
Therefore, divorce and remarriage is not an option for Christians unless one of the spouse dies then remarriage is permitted.
Rom 7:2-3
2 For a married woman is bound by law to her husband while he lives, but if her husband dies she is released from the law of marriage.
3 Accordingly, she will be called an adulteress if she lives with another man while her husband is alive. But if her husband dies, she is free from that law, and if she marries another man she is not an adulteress.
1 Cor 7:39 A wife is bound to her husband as long as he lives. But if her husband dies, she is free to be married to whom she wishes, only in the Lord.
I hope the above helps.
It is widely accepted that the book of Matthew was written to the Jews. The traditional Jewish wedding is a two-step process: the betrothal period, erusin, and the officiating of the marriage, nissuin. The betrothed couples were regarded as husband and wife even before they were married that's why Joseph was said to be Mary's husband. As per Jesus' statement during this period of betrothal divorce is permitted for fornication contrary to what the Pharisees were taught (that divorce was permitted during marriage) thus in Matthew 19:1-10, His strict regulation against divorce during a marriage astonished them that His disciples said it is better for one to stay unmarried.
Joseph would have been permitted to divorce his betrothed wife when he found that she was with a child prior to their marriage, but if they were married divorce would not have been lawful; it is only death that can dissolve the legitimate marriage (see Matt 19:6, Rom 7:2-3).
Matt 1:18-19 (KJV)
18 Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost.
19 Then Joseph her husband, being a just man, and not willing to make her a publick example, was minded to put her away privily.
Matt 1:18-19 (ESV)
18 Now the birth of Jesus Christ took place in this way. When his mother Mary had been betrothed to Joseph, before they came together she was found to be with child from the Holy Spirit.
19 And her husband Joseph, being a just man and unwilling to put her to shame, resolved to divorce her quietly.
That is what Jesus was alluding to - the only grounds for divorce is fornication (porneia G4202) during the engagement period, not adultery (moichaō G3429) in marriage.
Next, let's examine Paul's writings...
1 Cor 7:10-11 (KJV)
10 And unto the married I command, yet not I, but the Lord, Let not the wife depart from her husband:
11 But and if she depart, let her remain unmarried, or be reconciled to her husband: and let not the husband put away his wife.
1 Cor 7:10-11 (ESV)
10 To the married I give this charge (not I, but the Lord): the wife should not separate from her husband
11 (but if she does, she should remain unmarried or else be reconciled to her husband), and the husband should not divorce his wife.
Now one must note that "depart" has a different connotation from "put away". Departure is temporary separation kind of like the couple are on "time-out" but they are still legally married, however with "put away" legal documents have been signed and divorce has been completed (Paul did not advocate that). The wife should remain with her husband if they are having marital issues however if she does separate on a temporary basis she should remain unmarried (do not marry another man otherwise it is adultery) or she should reconcile with her husband.
Therefore, divorce and remarriage is not an option for Christians unless one of the spouse dies then remarriage is permitted.
Rom 7:2-3
2 For a married woman is bound by law to her husband while he lives, but if her husband dies she is released from the law of marriage.
3 Accordingly, she will be called an adulteress if she lives with another man while her husband is alive. But if her husband dies, she is free from that law, and if she marries another man she is not an adulteress.
1 Cor 7:39 A wife is bound to her husband as long as he lives. But if her husband dies, she is free to be married to whom she wishes, only in the Lord.
I hope the above helps.
Well this is a difficult subject. How do we observe the word of God and demonstrate compassion towards those who are adversely effected by divorce? It is often difficult to use logic or well reasoned thinking when dealing with the strong emotions that surround divorce and remarriage.
Paul addresses the need to deal with this inside the church when he instructs Timothy in 1 Tim 5:11. Widows and divorcees are functional equivalents in the modern church. I do not condone divorce but I do not condone adultery or spousal abuse either. I would not suggest that we abuse our liberty in Christ and promote wholesale divorce and remarriage but there are limited situations where it is a compassionate solution.
A good local church pastor is far better able to counsel those who are in this difficult situation.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
Paul addresses the need to deal with this inside the church when he instructs Timothy in 1 Tim 5:11. Widows and divorcees are functional equivalents in the modern church. I do not condone divorce but I do not condone adultery or spousal abuse either. I would not suggest that we abuse our liberty in Christ and promote wholesale divorce and remarriage but there are limited situations where it is a compassionate solution.
A good local church pastor is far better able to counsel those who are in this difficult situation.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
Please permit Paul to tweak and adjust what you have said:
1 Corinthians 12:2 "Ye know that ye were Gentiles, carried away unto these dumb idols, even as ye were led."
1 Corinthians 6:9 "Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God."
Acts 10:15 "And the voice spake unto him again the second time, What God hath cleansed, that call not thou common."
1 Corinthians 12:2 "Ye know that ye were Gentiles, carried away unto these dumb idols, even as ye were led."
1 Corinthians 6:9 "Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God."
Acts 10:15 "And the voice spake unto him again the second time, What God hath cleansed, that call not thou common."