Paul's 4th Missionary Journey (to Spain)

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W

Widdekind

Guest
#1
Paul supposedly evangelized Spain. In the 1st - 2nd centuries AD, brief mention is made of Spanish Christians. In the 3rd century AD, Christian communities in Spain emerge into the historical record, "scattered" across Spain (in the Roman provinces of Tarraconensis & Baetica). Plausibly, after being freed from Rome circa 62 AD (about when Josephus helped free Jewish High Priests, as if Nero granted clemency "to all those Jews" at the same time), Paul sailed to Spain, and travelled to-and-fro, on Roman roads there, much as he had done in Asia & Greece. (There may have been an ancient Jewish presence in Tartessos, plausibly Biblical Tarshish.)

Afterwards, Paul's "Pastoral" epistles place him in Crete, Ephesus, Macedonia, Greece & Rome, circa 64-65 AD. "Connecting the dots", Paul plausibly sailed from Spain, to Carthage, and Cyrene, in Africa; and then to Crete and the Greek world; before being arrested to Rome. The first Bishop of Carthage was the first Christian convert, of Paul's preaching, in Greece -- perhaps Paul called Epaenetus, from Rome (Rom 16), to Carthage, circa 64 AD, before returning, through Crete, to Ephesus, and Greece, trying to deal with heresies.








 

jb

Senior Member
Feb 27, 2010
4,940
586
113
#2
Paul does writes in Rom 15v24,28 of his intention to evangelise Spain...
 
K

kenisyes

Guest
#3
The tradition is that he and Peter were martyred by Nero in about 62-63. I can't imagine that being wrong. I certainly can see him having gone there earlier. Curiously, the Jews connect this word with Obadiah 1:20, as the Sephardic jews come from Spain. If there were Jews there, Paul could have gone there much earlier than after the end of the book of Acts.
 
D

didymos

Guest
#4
One can only 'connect the dots' so far. Just because Paul talked about going to Spain doesn't have mean he actually went there. Mention of christians in the 1st century AD isn't proof of Paul's visit to Spain. A statement like 'Paul went to Rome' has to be backed up by scripture or scientific proof, or both. Scientific proof could be mention of Paul's visit in contemporary sources other than scripture.
 
W

Widdekind

Guest
#5
no -- Nero's persecution persisted from Nov. 64 AD to June 68 AD (nearly 42 months). Nero blamed Christians for the Great Fire of Rome in Jul. 64 AD. Peter & Paul were martyred circa 65 AD. Mark escaped to north Africa for over two years, and was martyred in April 68 AD. So, Paul's 4th missionary journey could have occurred from circa 62-64 AD; Paul could have spent over a year in Spain.

The tradition is that he and Peter were martyred by Nero in about 62-63. I can't imagine that being wrong. I certainly can see him having gone there earlier. Curiously, the Jews connect this word with Obadiah 1:20, as the Sephardic jews come from Spain. If there were Jews there, Paul could have gone there much earlier than after the end of the book of Acts.
 
R

RachelBibleStudent

Guest
#6
i would say it is likely that paul did go to spain after being released from his first imprisonment...the ancient christian writer clement of rome mentions paul going to the 'furthest limit of the west' which probably refers to spain...clement actually knew paul so it is very unlikely that he would have been misinformed...
 
K

kenisyes

Guest
#7
no -- Nero's persecution persisted from Nov. 64 AD to June 68 AD (nearly 42 months). Nero blamed Christians for the Great Fire of Rome in Jul. 64 AD. Peter & Paul were martyred circa 65 AD. Mark escaped to north Africa for over two years, and was martyred in April 68 AD. So, Paul's 4th missionary journey could have occurred from circa 62-64 AD; Paul could have spent over a year in Spain.
Your chronology is certainly interesting and agrees with much on Internet. I am working from a more ancient and a more certain source. Let me specify:

The original source is Pseudo-Hippolytus, here: CHURCH FATHERS: On the Apostles and Disciples (Pseudo-Hippolytus) The relevant quote is:

And Paul entered into the apostleship a year after the assumption of Christ; and beginning at Jerusalem, he advanced as far as Illyricum, and Italy, and Spain, preaching the Gospel for five-and-thirty years. And in the time of Nero he was beheaded at Rome, and was buried there.

If you assume Jesus died in 33AD, as many do, this makes it 68. The trouble is, the star that drew the wisemen was 4BC, according to our computer astronomy programs. That puts everything 4 years earlier, and most scholars now agree with that date. That makes it 64. Recent research, and posts here, suggests that Jesus' ministry was 3 Jewish years, but only 1 and a half by our count. The verification occurs also by modern computer astronomical programs, placing the earthquake, the blood red moon, and the only possible year of a Thursday Passover at 27. That gives 62-63.

I appreciate your point, and you are in agreement with the normal tradition of Christian historical teaching since the middle ages. I tend to trust the computer data more, especially since I know how inaccurate those monks were at keeping track of a lot of other historical dates. Also, the revised dates for Jesus fit several Jewish cultural expectations better than the 33 date, and Jesus seemed very careful to fulfill as many prophecies and expectations as possible, so there would be no doubt of His identity.
 
W

Widdekind

Guest
#8
(thanks for the cited source)

you're making this too complicated

Luke states that John the Baptist began preaching in the 15th year of Tiberias = 28/29 AD.

John states that Jesus cleansed the temple, for the first time, at the beginning of his ministry, after 46 years of work renovating the temple. Herod the Great began those renovations in 20/19 BC. +46 years = 27/28 AD. (there is no 'year 0')

So, those accounts overlap, and so are consistent -- John baptized Jesus in 28 AD; Jesus cleansed the temple (John 2); Jesus ministered for 2 more years (John 3-18); Jesus was crucified in 30 AD.

But, Paul did not join the Church, until several years later; so his 35 years didn't start until the early 30s AD. Paul's last letter, as a free man, was to Titus, from Nicopolis in western Greece, where Paul planned to winter. Now, Nero famously visited Greece, and participated in Greek Olympic games, from November 66 AD through all of 67 AD. And, Nero landed in Actium (famous site of the Naval battle of Augustus vs. Anthony & Cleopatra), near Nicopolis. So, plausibly, Paul wound up wintering within ready reach, of Nero's entourage. Plausibly, Paul was arrested in 66/67 AD, near Nicopolis, and sent to Rome, for execution. 66/67 AD - 35 years = 31/32 AD, in complete accord with joining the Church, a couple of years after the 30 AD Crucifixion.

So, Paul's 4th missionary journey may have lasted 4-5 years, from circa 62-66/67 AD. Paul's "beheading" is referenced in Rev 20. Note, the "beheading" was done by axe, the "Fascist" axe of the imperial Fasces, symbol of ancient Roman authority, over life & limb (John 18).

fasces-copy.jpg

Your chronology is certainly interesting and agrees with much on Internet. I am working from a more ancient and a more certain source. Let me specify:

The original source is Pseudo-Hippolytus, here: CHURCH FATHERS: On the Apostles and Disciples (Pseudo-Hippolytus) The relevant quote is:

And Paul entered into the apostleship a year after the assumption of Christ; and beginning at Jerusalem, he advanced as far as Illyricum, and Italy, and Spain, preaching the Gospel for five-and-thirty years. And in the time of Nero he was beheaded at Rome, and was buried there.

If you assume Jesus died in 33AD, as many do, this makes it 68. The trouble is, the star that drew the wisemen was 4BC, according to our computer astronomy programs. That puts everything 4 years earlier, and most scholars now agree with that date. That makes it 64. Recent research, and posts here, suggests that Jesus' ministry was 3 Jewish years, but only 1 and a half by our count. The verification occurs also by modern computer astronomical programs, placing the earthquake, the blood red moon, and the only possible year of a Thursday Passover at 27. That gives 62-63.

I appreciate your point, and you are in agreement with the normal tradition of Christian historical teaching since the middle ages. I tend to trust the computer data more, especially since I know how inaccurate those monks were at keeping track of a lot of other historical dates. Also, the revised dates for Jesus fit several Jewish cultural expectations better than the 33 date, and Jesus seemed very careful to fulfill as many prophecies and expectations as possible, so there would be no doubt of His identity.
 
K

kenisyes

Guest
#9
Luke states that John the Baptist began preaching in the 15th year of Tiberias = 28/29 AD.

John states that Jesus cleansed the temple, for the first time, at the beginning of his ministry, after 46 years of work renovating the temple. Herod the Great began those renovations in 20/19 BC. +46 years = 27/28 AD. (there is no 'year 0')

But, Paul did not join the Church, until several years later;
Tiberius was appointed emperor 18 Sept. in 14, by Roman records. But a Jew counting this, might count from Tabernacles of that year, which happened later than 18 Sept. Since both Romans and Jews count beginning and ending of a series, the first year would be the few days prior to Tabernacles, the second year was in progress in Oct. 14AD. This makes the 15th year 27. and resets the chronology. The same argument can be used for temple renovations. These counts are possible, and are needed to reconcile the astronomy, which is the more accurate data, in view of the various ways of counting years I am citing.

I see no reason to contradict psudoHippolytus as to Paul starting his ministry one year after the ascension. The story in Acts is completely consistent with a 5-6 month tolerance of the early church, 5-6 month persecution, including that of Paul. Paul's salvation took less than a few weeks, before he was debating with Jews. It is more likely that psudoHippolytus was used by ninth century Christians, who already had the wrong date for Jesus' birth as 1AD, and that Paul's movements vs. those of Nero established by Roman records were rewritten by Christian historians to be as you have quoted them, by adding pseudoH's 35 years to 33 AD.

Your statement in the other thread, that Rev. was written ca. 66, contradicts your own statement here, that Paul's beheading is included in the "beheadings" of ch. 20:4, since for this to be so, implies Paul died before Rev. was written, thus at the latest early 66AD, not 66/67.
 
W

Widdekind

Guest
#10
And Paul entered into the apostleship a year after the assumption of Christ; and beginning at Jerusalem, he advanced as far as Illyricum, and Italy, and Spain, preaching the Gospel for five-and-thirty years. And in the time of Nero he was beheaded at Rome, and was buried there.
Crucifixion = 30 AD
Paul's Vision = 31 AD
Paul martyred = 66 AD

Paul was in Nicopolis, near Actium, when Nero arrived in late 66 AD. Paul was outed, arrested, sent to Rome, and beheaded, in late 66 AD.

Meanwhile, John was in Ephesus, in Greek Asia; and was arrested & exiled to Patmos (perhaps awaiting shipment to Rome). John wrote Revelation somewhere circa 66-68 AD, in a time of deep distress to the Church, implying after the martyrdoms of Peter & Paul in Rome, so that John was the only surviving "pillar" Apostle.

all of these dates can give or take a year (but the years i chose i perceive as preferable). The source you cited seems perfectly plausible -- why refer to the same as "pseudo-" ? Could not the actual Hippolytus have written the work ?


Tiberius was appointed emperor 18 Sept. in 14, by Roman records. But a Jew counting this, might count from Tabernacles of that year, which happened later than 18 Sept. Since both Romans and Jews count beginning and ending of a series, the first year would be the few days prior to Tabernacles, the second year was in progress in Oct. 14AD. This makes the 15th year 27. and resets the chronology. The same argument can be used for temple renovations. These counts are possible, and are needed to reconcile the astronomy, which is the more accurate data, in view of the various ways of counting years I am citing.

I see no reason to contradict psudoHippolytus as to Paul starting his ministry one year after the ascension. The story in Acts is completely consistent with a 5-6 month tolerance of the early church, 5-6 month persecution, including that of Paul. Paul's salvation took less than a few weeks, before he was debating with Jews. It is more likely that psudoHippolytus was used by ninth century Christians, who already had the wrong date for Jesus' birth as 1AD, and that Paul's movements vs. those of Nero established by Roman records were rewritten by Christian historians to be as you have quoted them, by adding pseudoH's 35 years to 33 AD.

Your statement in the other thread, that Rev. was written ca. 66, contradicts your own statement here, that Paul's beheading is included in the "beheadings" of ch. 20:4, since for this to be so, implies Paul died before Rev. was written, thus at the latest early 66AD, not 66/67.
 
K

kenisyes

Guest
#11
Crucifixion = 30 AD
Paul's Vision = 31 AD
Paul martyred = 66 AD

Paul was in Nicopolis, near Actium, when Nero arrived in late 66 AD. Paul was outed, arrested, sent to Rome, and beheaded, in late 66 AD.

Meanwhile, John was in Ephesus, in Greek Asia; and was arrested & exiled to Patmos (perhaps awaiting shipment to Rome). John wrote Revelation somewhere circa 66-68 AD, in a time of deep distress to the Church, implying after the martyrdoms of Peter & Paul in Rome, so that John was the only surviving "pillar" Apostle.

all of these dates can give or take a year (but the years i chose i perceive as preferable). The source you cited seems perfectly plausible -- why refer to the same as "pseudo-" ? Could not the actual Hippolytus have written the work ?
There is no historical proof of any of these dates. Without that they could have been 3 years earlier across the board. The astronomy supports three years earlier.

I call it psudeo-Hippolytus since that's what everyone else calls it. Among scholars, it is consider the name of the text, based on the "supposed" suthor. We don't know for certain who wrote a lot of things. People even argue about Revelation and Hebrews, and Shakespeare and Bach.
 
W

Widdekind

Guest
#12
you're being a "minimalist" -- the text is attributed (originally) to Hippolytus, albeit copied down through the centuries by others

Peter & Paul were martyred in Rome, under Nero, during Nero's persecution of Christians, which only began in Nov. 64 AD, so neither could have been martyred before that date

Jesus was born circa 4 BC, and Crucified circa 30 AD, at the age of circa 33 1/2 years, which agrees with Church tradition, that Jesus was approx. 30 years old. Yes, these dates have some slop of a year or two; but both Peter & Paul must have been martyred, after late 64 AD.

There is no historical proof of any of these dates. Without that they could have been 3 years earlier across the board. The astronomy supports three years earlier.

I call it psudeo-Hippolytus since that's what everyone else calls it. Among scholars, it is consider the name of the text, based on the "supposed" suthor. We don't know for certain who wrote a lot of things. People even argue about Revelation and Hebrews, and Shakespeare and Bach.
 
K

kenisyes

Guest
#13
you're being a "minimalist" -- the text is attributed (originally) to Hippolytus, albeit copied down through the centuries by others

Peter & Paul were martyred in Rome, under Nero, during Nero's persecution of Christians, which only began in Nov. 64 AD, so neither could have been martyred before that date
The same problem occurs with ALL your sources:Nero

I have tried twice to insert this hyperlink, and running out of time to edit the post. I will post again after this.
http://carrington-arts.com/cliff/Nero.htm
 
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K

kenisyes

Guest
#14
That got the link in. I want to add: This is why I am working from the Bible and from astronomy, and then from the most ancient sources I can find that agree wtih them.
 
W

Widdekind

Guest
#15
that source states, that Nero committed suicide in Dec. 68 AD. That's wrong, he committed suicide in June 68 AD.

again, you're being a "minimalist" (for want of worthier words); you're saying "disbelieve absolutely everything, that is not recorded in surviving stone fragments"; and applying that high hurdle, to the Mediterranean & Middle East, littered with the cracked & crumbling rubble & ruins of past failures, where-with-in not even much stone survives.

Epictetus was the slave of Nero's secretary. Nero was persecuting Christians. The source you cited seems "surprised" that Epictetus did not overtly mention his seeming Christian faith. Well, Christians cowered in the catacombs of Rome for several centuries, for similar reasons. Were there no Christians in Rome, because they did not overtly meet daily in the Forum Romanum ?

elaborate Priestly garments, and elaborate verbosity aside, i do not "buy" into minimalism, 'tis neither logical nor rational, to my mind.

i did not know about the Hippolytus source, nor most of the citations in the Nero article, for which i'm grateful

That got the link in. I want to add: This is why I am working from the Bible and from astronomy, and then from the most ancient sources I can find that agree wtih them.
 
W

Widdekind

Guest
#16
That got the link in. I want to add: This is why I am working from the Bible and from astronomy, and then from the most ancient sources I can find that agree wtih them.
that sounds systematic & logical

yet, why throw out so much other evidence. The best arguments are those that incorporate the "preponderance of all available evidence". i perceive you are being "pre-judging" in that regard
 
K

kenisyes

Guest
#17
that sounds systematic & logical

yet, why throw out so much other evidence. The best arguments are those that incorporate the "preponderance of all available evidence". i perceive you are being "pre-judging" in that regard
The argument I am using is standard in philology and history. This is not "preponderance", but primary vs. secondary sources. Primary documents weigh more heavily than secondary documents. in the case where the secondary documents are written or guarded by those with a motive to alter them, deliberate or inadvertent alteration is always a possibility.

The Bible is universally accepted by all Christians as factual when it reports a fact. The mathematics underlying the astronomy has been verified, and must be assumed correct. The point of the page I gave you, is that there is an argument, based on primary evidence, that the "persecution of Nero", as reported in almost all of Christian history, may be incorrect.

Remember again, I agree with you that Paul probably got to Spain. Our disagreement is over 3-4 years of the date. It is researching more deeply into this issue to find out if what I had learned as a child (63AD) was indeed wrong, that I discovered the problem is the tip of a much bigger iceberg, an inceberg that causes us to reject ideas about the day of the week the Eucharist was established. If 68 is correct, and pseudoH's 35 years is correct, Jesus died in 30 or 33 AD. Either the astronomy data is wrong, or the Bible is reporting impossible events at the crucifixion. i am looking for the simplest argument that gives an answer to those much weightier apparent conflicts.

I have read a few books about Paul's life, and up until the astronomy came out, no one was even able to make a workable guess at when He write Corinthians even, let alone when he reached Rome. There are much bigger questions here, than just the date of Nero's persecution, about which I have heard many different stories.
 
W

Widdekind

Guest
#18
Luke & John say 28 AD = start of earthly Ministry

+2 years = 30 AD

Luke & John are "primary" sources, yes ?

+1 year = 31 AD for Paul's conversion
+35 years = 66 AD for Paul's martyrdom (subsequently alluded to in Rev 20's reference to "beheadings")
 
K

kenisyes

Guest
#19
Luke & John say 28 AD = start of earthly Ministry

+2 years = 30 AD

Luke & John are "primary" sources, yes ?

+1 year = 31 AD for Paul's conversion
+35 years = 66 AD for Paul's martyrdom (subsequently alluded to in Rev 20's reference to "beheadings")
I'm sure the number 28 does not occur in the Gospel of Luke. You need to show me that verse, so we can discuss translation of timekeeping methods.
 
W

Widdekind

Guest
#20
John the Baptist Prepares the Way (Luke 3)

In the fifteenth year of the reign of Tiberius Caesar—when Pontius Pilate was governor of Judea, Herod tetrarch of Galilee, his brother Philip tetrarch of Iturea and Traconitis, and Lysanias tetrarch of Abilene — during the high-priesthood of Annas and Caiaphas, the word of God came to John son of Zechariah in the wilderness. He went into all the country around the Jordan, preaching a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins.