Obedience, A Necessary Requirement For Salvation?

Skinski7 · Jun 4, 2013

[FONT=&quot]Was Noah's salvation from the flood conditional on him building the ark?[/FONT][FONT=&quot]

That one question ought to put to rest any assertion that obedience is not a necessary condition towards the outcome of one's salvation.

The writer of Hebrews claimed that...

Heb 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

Yet despite this plain statement being made in scripture many people hold to the view that "God is the author of the obedience of those whom are saved."

I think much of the confusion surrounding this issue is rooted in the definitions of words whereby the perception of particular concepts is very easily twisted.

For example the term "salvation" implies being "saved." Thus in light of the very meaning of the word we ought to consider what is a Christian actually saved from.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Jesus made the following statement...

Joh 8:34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.
Joh 8:35 And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever.
Joh 8:36 If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.

Servant literally means slave (1). Thus when Jesus stated that "if the Son shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed" it is clearly in the context of being set free from being a slave to sin. Therefore I would consider it accurate to state that a Christian is saved from being sins servant or slave. After all Jesus did preach deliverance to the captives (Luk 4:18).
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[FONT=&quot]Another text worth referencing is found in Matthew where it is written...[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Mat 1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.

He shall save His people from their sins. Clearly salvation is being saved FROM sin.

Paul makes an interesting statement in Romans chapter 6...

Rom 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

Clearly Paul is teaching that those who "obey sin" are the "slaves of sin" a teaching which clearly agree with the statement Jesus made in Joh 8:34 regarding those who commit sin being the servants of sin. Yet Paul goes even further in his explanation by contrasting "obeying sin unto death" with "obedience unto righteousness." Thus it is very apparent that there are two different paths which one can take.

Which path is that a genuine Christian has taken? Well Paul gives the answer in the very next verse...

Rom 6:17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
Rom 6:18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

"Obedience from the heart" to the "form of doctrine delivered" is what set these people free from the service of sin.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]In the 2nd Epistle of John we find this statement... [/FONT]
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[FONT=&quot]2Jn 1:9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son. [/FONT]
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[FONT=&quot]Clearly a Christian must abide in the doctrine of Christ wherefore they do not transgress. The doctrine of Christ being the doctrine according to godliness (1Tim 6:3).

So is obedience a condition of salvation? Clearly it is according to the plain words of Scripture. If an individual is "not obedient from the heart" to the "doctrine once delivered" and thus continues to "obey sin" and thus remains a "slave of sin" then what is it exactly that such an individual has actually been saved from? Surely it would be foolish to claim that they have been "saved from sin."

I do understand that many people cling to the doctrine of the Penal Substitution of the atonement whereby they view their justification as being established upon a legal transaction which they perceive took place at the cross (ie. their sin was transferred to Jesus who was then punished in their place and the righteousness of Jesus has been credited to them) whereby the wrath of God no longer abounds upon them for ongoing sin because the "penalty due was paid in full" so to speak. Yet this doctrine completely ignores what Jesus and Paul actually teach about "being set free from sin" for the freedom alluded to is only a "freedom from condemnation" and not a "freedom from the service of sin." Thus these people hold to a view that salvation is purely of an abstract or forensic nature, in other words they are saved positionally whilst they remain unsaved manifestly.

Moving on, Paul continued and wrote the following in Romans chapter 6...

Rom 6:18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.
Rom 6:19 I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness.
Rom 6:20 For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness.
Rom 6:21 What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death.
Rom 6:22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.
Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

In verse 19 Paul speaks of a "yielding of the members" to either "uncleanliness and iniquity" or to "righteousness unto holiness." He then states that by "being made free from sin" one "becomes a servant of God" whereby the fruit produced will be holiness which leads to everlasting life.

Thus in verse 23 Paul is illustrating that the wages of SERVING SIN is death but the gift of God is eternal life through the SERVICE OF JESUS CHRIST.

Is it any wonder Jesus would say...

Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

It is the servants of sin who work iniquity (Rom 6:19-20) whilst it is the servants of Christ who work holiness (Rom 6:22). Hence a faith working by love (Gal 5:6) fulfills the righteousness of the law (Gal 5:14) whereby one walks in the Spirit (Gal 5:16, Rom 8:1-4) producing the fruits of the Spirit (Gal 5:22-23, Eph 5:9). It is in the production of fruit that the genuine Christian is made manifest to the world (1Joh 3:10, Joh 15:5).

Paul also wrote the following...

Rom 2:3 And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God?
Rom 2:4 Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?
Rom 2:5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
Rom 2:6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
Rom 2:7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
Rom 2:8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,

Indignation and wrath upon those who obey unrighteousness (those whom serve sin) and eternal life to those who patiently continue in doing good (those whom obey Jesus Christ).

So is obedience a necessary requirement of salvation?

Well you tell me.[/FONT]
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[FONT=&quot][/FONT] [FONT=&quot][/FONT] [FONT=&quot][/FONT] [FONT=&quot][/FONT] [FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
(1) Servant - G1401 - doulos
From G1210; a slave (literally or figuratively, involuntarily or voluntarily; frequently therefore in a qualified sense of subjection or subserviency): - bond (-man), servant.

Note:- I believe that Jesus Christ saves us FROM sin, not IN sin. Thus it is through the blood of Christ that our consciences are cleansed of the defilement wrought by our rebellion to God and by partaking in His suffering we are also set free from the bondage of sin. Thus a Christian is made pure in Christ and can therefore serve God in an acceptable manner.

The Pearl of Great Price

HeRoseFromTheDead · Jun 4, 2013

You understand very little about the cross, or even the bible as a whole really. Your whole theology is built on flawed premises. At the moment, I would like to focus on one of your key fallacies (probably the key fallacy), i.e., that man does not have a corrupt, sinful nature.

Those who say they do not have a corrupted nature are liars, because all do sin and it is impossible to sin without a corrupted, sinful nature. Biblically speaking, a tree either produces good fruit or bad fruit depending on its nature; but a good tree cannot produce bad fruit; and there is no such thing as an amoral tree that produces bad fruit, yet that is essentially what you teach. Don't try to suggest that Adam and Eve chose to sin in a state of perfection. Sin cannot come from perfection, nor can it come from a vacuum. They both corrupted their natures first, then chose to sin out of their corrupted natures. Eve corrupted herself by loving the world more than GOD, and Adam corrupted himself by loving his wife more than GOD.

Sin, by definition, is not doing GOD's will. When Adam sinned he became one spirit with sin, and was therefore separated from GOD. This condition was now his nature. As a natural man, without being one with GOD's spirit he could not know GOD's will perfectly; and therefore wasn't able to do the will of GOD perfectly. He was by his very nature a sinner.

Adam's corrupted nature has been passed from generation to generation, not by some ethereal substance passed through the sperm (per your straw man argument), but through the spiritual inheritance passed from father to son. Since it is impossible for any creature of GOD to sire offspring contrary to its nature, Adam's children inherited his corrupted, sinful nature.

gentlebreeze · Jun 5, 2013

Why would anyone not wish to understand?

The lie of Eliphaz the Temanite : Job 15:15 “Look! In his holy ones he has no faith, And the heavens them selves are actually not clean in his eyes. ”

Jobs righteous correction to such lies: Job 24:23 “He will grant him to become confident that he may support himself; And his eyes will be upon their ways. ”

Bildad the Shuhite contadicting Job with yet more of the same lie, just as insistant upon his own way of seeing things as are many on CC: Job 25: 5 “Look! There is even the moon, and it is not bright; And the stars themselves have not proved clean in his eyes. ”

The righteous young Elhu agrees with Job on this point: Job 34: 21 “For his eyes are upon the ways of man, And all his steps he sees.
22 There is no darkness nor any deep shadow For those practicing what is hurtful to conceal themselves there.
23 For he sets no appointed time for any man To go to God in judgment. ”

2 Chronicles 16: 9 “For, as regards Jehovah, his eyes are roving about through all the earth to show his strength in behalf of those whose heart is complete toward him. You have acted foolishly respecting this, for from now on there will exist wars against you.”

1 John 3:22 “and whatever we ask we receive from him, because we are observing his commandments and are doing the things that are pleasing in his eyes. ”

2 Samuel 12:9a “Why did you despise the word of Jehovah by doing what is bad in his eyes? ”

2 Samuel 22:22 “For I have kept the ways of Jehovah, And I have not wickedly departed from my God.
23 For all his judicial decisions are in front of me; And as for his statutes, I shall not turn aside from them.
24 And I shall prove myself faultless toward him, And I will keep myself from error on my part.
25 And let Jehovah repay me according to my righteousness, According to my cleanness in front of his eyes.
26 With someone loyal you will act in loyalty; With the faultless, mighty one you will deal faultlessly; 27 With the one keeping clean you will show yourself clean, And with the crooked one you will act as silly.
28 And the humble people you will save; But your eyes are against the haughty ones, that you may bring them low.”

We all have need to understand this: Job 36: 1 “And Elihu proceeded to say further:
2 “Have patience with me a little while, and I shall declare to you That there are yet words to say for God.
3 I shall carry my knowledge from far off, And to my Fashioner I shall ascribe righteousness.
4 For my words are for a fact no falsehood; The One perfect in knowledge is with you.
5 Look! God is mighty l and will not reject; He is mighty in power of heart;
6 He will not preserve anyone wicked alive, But the judgment of the afflicted ones he will give.
7 He will not take away his eyes from anyone righteous; Even kings on the throne He will also seat them for ever, and they will be exalted.
8 And if they are bound in fetters, They are captured with ropes of affliction.
9 Then he will tell them about the way they act And their transgressions, because they take a superior air.
10 And he will uncover their ear to exhortation, And he will say that they should turn back from what is hurtful.
11 If they obey and serve, They will finish their days in what is good And their years in pleasantness.
12 But if they do not obey, they will pass away even by a missile, And they will expire with out knowledge.
13 And those apostate in heart will themselves lay up anger. They should not cry for help because he has bound them. ”

Skinski7 · Jun 5, 2013

Cain and Abel

Gen 4:3 And in process of time it came to pass, that Cain brought of the fruit of the ground an offering unto the LORD.
Gen 4:4 And Abel, he also brought of the firstlings of his flock and of the fat thereof. And the LORD had respect unto Abel and to his offering:
Gen 4:5 But unto Cain and to his offering he had not respect. And Cain was very wroth, and his countenance fell.
Gen 4:6 And the LORD said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen?
Gen 4:7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.
Gen 4:8 And Cain talked with Abel his brother: and it came to pass, when they were in the field, that Cain rose up against Abel his brother, and slew him.

1Jn_3:12 Not as Cain, who was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother's righteous.

Heb_11:4 By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh.

Skinski7 · Jun 5, 2013

Noah

Gen 6:8 But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD.
Gen 6:9 These are the generations of Noah: Noah was a just man and perfect in his generations, and Noah walked with God.

Gen 7:1 And the LORD said unto Noah, Come thou and all thy house into the ark; for thee have I seen righteous before me in this generation.

Heb 11:7 By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.

Faith = Faithfulness ie. abiding in the light.

Skinski7 · Jun 5, 2013

There are righteous people in the Bible. Why are they righteous? Because they DO what is right.

1Jn 3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

Isa 3:10 Say ye to the righteous, that it shall be well with him: for they shall eat the fruit of their doings.

2Pe 2:6 And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly;
2Pe 2:7 And delivered just Lot, vexed with the filthy conversation of the wicked:
2Pe 2:8 (For that righteous man dwelling among them, in seeing and hearing, vexed his righteous soul from day to day with their unlawful deeds

Psa 119:1 ALEPH. Blessed are the undefiled in the way, who walk in the law of the LORD.
Psa 119:2 Blessed are they that keep his testimonies, and that seek him with the whole heart.
Psa 119:3 They also do no iniquity: they walk in his ways.
Psa 119:4 Thou hast commanded us to keep thy precepts diligently.
Psa 119:5 O that my ways were directed to keep thy statutes!
Psa 119:6 Then shall I not be ashamed, when I have respect unto all thy commandments.
Psa 119:7 I will praise thee with uprightness of heart, when I shall have learned thy righteous judgments.
Psa 119:8 I will keep thy statutes: O forsake me not utterly.
Psa 119:9 BETH. Wherewithal shall a young man cleanse his way? by taking heed thereto according to thy word.
Psa 119:10 With my whole heart have I sought thee: O let me not wander from thy commandments.
Psa 119:11 Thy word have I hid in mine heart, that I might not sin against thee.

follower2 · Jun 5, 2013

Wasnt there just a thread on here with the same title? I think its on like page 2-3, it has like 120 posts or something XD.
The topics are starting to recycle, I haven't seen a new topic in days, but I'm fairly new, maybe I am starting to notice the pattern.

svedbygrace · Jun 5, 2013

Yes, The obedience of Christ ! His Obedience alone gives Salvation to those He died for. Rom 5:19

19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

HeRoseFromTheDead · Jun 5, 2013

Skinski7 said:

Abel was declared righteous because the righteousness of Christ was imputed to him through his faith that the blood of a vicarious sin offering covered his sin(s) before the face of the holy GOD. Cain, on the other hand, remained in his sin(s) because he believed his own deeds (symbolized by the fruit of the ground) would make him righteous.

The latter sounds like skinski.

HeRoseFromTheDead · Jun 5, 2013

Skinski7 said:

So they said to him, “What shall we do that we can DO the deeds of God?” Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God: that you BELIEVE into the one (Jesus) whom (GOD) sent.” John 6:28-29

SarahM777 · Jun 5, 2013

Skinski7 said:

UMM Skinski,

There are righteous people in the Bible because there were declared righteous by FAITH.

Romans 3

21 But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. 22 This righteousness is given through faith in[h] Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference between Jew and Gentile, 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. 25 God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement,[i] through the shedding of his blood—to be received by faith. He did this to demonstrate his righteousness, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished— 26 he did it to demonstrate his righteousness at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus.

Romans 4

4 What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh, discovered in this matter? 2 If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about—but not before God. 3 What does Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”[a]
4 Now to the one who works, wages are not credited as a gift but as an obligation. 5 However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness. 6 David says the same thing when he speaks of the blessedness of the one to whom God credits righteousness apart from works:
7 “Blessed are those
whose transgressions are forgiven,
whose sins are covered.
8 Blessed is the one
whose sin the Lord will never count against them.”[b]

9 Is this blessedness only for the circumcised, or also for the uncircumcised? We have been saying that Abraham’s faith was credited to him as righteousness. 10 Under what circumstances was it credited? Was it after he was circumcised, or before? It was not after, but before! 11And he received circumcision as a sign, a seal of the righteousness that he had by faith while he was still uncircumcised. So then, he is the father of all who believe but have not been circumcised, in order that righteousness might be credited to them. 12 And he is then also the father of the circumcised who not only are circumcised but who also follow in the footsteps of the faith that our father Abraham had before he was circumcised.
13 It was not through the law that Abraham and his offspring received the promise that he would be heir of the world, but through the righteousness that comes by faith.14 For if those who depend on the law are heirs, faith means nothing and the promise is worthless, 15 because the law brings wrath. And where there is no law there is no transgression.
16 Therefore, the promise comes by faith, so that it may be by grace and may be guaranteed to all Abraham’s offspring—not only to those who are of the law but also to those who have the faith of Abraham. He is the father of us all. 17 As it is written: “I have made you a father of many nations.”[c] He is our father in the sight of God, in whom he believed—the God who gives life to the dead and calls into being things that were not.
18 Against all hope, Abraham in hope believed and so became the father of many nations, just as it had been said to him, “So shall your offspring be.”[d] 19 Without weakening in his faith, he faced the fact that his body was as good as dead—since he was about a hundred years old—and that Sarah’s womb was also dead. 20 Yet he did not waver through unbelief regarding the promise of God, but was strengthened in his faith and gave glory to God, 21 being fully persuaded that God had power to do what he had promised. 22 This is why “it was credited to him as righteousness.”23 The words “it was credited to him” were written not for him alone,24 but also for us, to whom God will credit righteousness—for us who believe in him who raised Jesus our Lord from the dead. 25 He was delivered over to death for our sins and was raised to life for our justification.

It's faith FIRST,obedience comes OUT of a living,breathing faith. It's the EVIDENCE of a faith that is alive and well. IT'S NOT THE WORKS that save. Never has been nor will it be.

Hebrew 11

6 And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him.

Without faith all those works you do are as NOTHING,while on the other hand one CAN NOT LEAVE out James where he plainly says faith WITHOUT works is dead. If one does not get the direction that it flows,it will be off base. And the direction is BELIEVE then obey. And why did they say that? It's because when faith is active and alive,it shows in obedience.

notuptome · Jun 5, 2013

Perhaps it would be more accurate to state that obedience is the expected result of salvation. The new man walks in newness of life. We do not frustrate the grace of God. If it were possible to become righteous by works of the law then Christ is dead in vain. Can a well that is contaminated issue pure water? No! Of course not. It must first be cleansed before it can give clean water. Until we have received God's cleansing we cannot be obedient except to sin. Now if we say we are saved and do not walk in the light as He is in the light then we lie and His truth is not in us. Mt 7:21-23 comes to mind. There are those in this world who claim to have what they do not possess.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

HeRoseFromTheDead · Jun 5, 2013

SarahM777 said:

Faith is obedience.

... whatsoever [is] not of faith is sin. Romans 14:23

Therefore as you have received Christ Jesus the Lord (i.e., by faith), live in him. Colossians 2:6

john832 · Jun 5, 2013

HeRoseFromTheDead said:

This one doesn't get much press from the faith only crowd...

1Jn 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

And this one gets even less...

Mat 19:17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

HeRoseFromTheDead · Jun 5, 2013

john832 said:

Can't you read the above? Whatever is not of faith is sin, i.e. transgressing the law, keeping the commandments.

Elin · Jun 6, 2013

I would ask your question differently:

Is obedience a necessary part of true faith, which is necessary for salvation?

The answer is yes.

john832 · Jun 6, 2013

HeRoseFromTheDead said:

Hmmm, was saying the faith only crowd, didn't say you. Sorry if you took it the wrong way.

john832 · Jun 6, 2013

Elin said:

And I would agree...

Gal 3:29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

And what did Abraham do?

Gen 26:3 Sojourn in this land, and I will be with thee, and will bless thee; for unto thee, and unto thy seed, I will give all these countries, and I will perform the oath which I sware unto Abraham thy father;
Gen 26:4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;
Gen 26:5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

HeRoseFromTheDead · Jun 6, 2013

Elin said:

Faith is obedience. A faith that works produces these fruits

The fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self control. Against such things [there] is no law. Galatians 5:22-23

This is how we know we have a faith with works.

Elin · Jun 6, 2013

HeRoseFromTheDead said:

Actually, faith is belief.

True belief obeys.

But all obedience is not true belief.

Obedience, A Necessary Requirement For Salvation?

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